ha - apparently, i wasn't as non-stressed as i said. i ended up emailing and she got right back to me with a kind e-mail, confirming my materials were received in december and my file is complete. now TRULY not stressing. thanks for the info, everyone.
While I don't feel I had anyone that was *too harsh* I do feel that I had one professor who didn't balance their comments very well. What I mean is that while he always had helpful critical comments, he never said anything was ever working well in anyone's piece. While I don't want someone telling me I'm wonderful all the time, I do find it just as helpful to hear "I like this part--it works for me" just as I find it helpful to hear "not sure this image is the strongest choice" or whatever it is. I dunno, its all a balance.
If I had to pick, I'd rather somebody rip something apart and give me all the negative than tell me I'm doing a super job. I mean, I know what I'm doing right. I need help with what I'm doing wrong (if I knew what I was doing wrong, I wouldn't be doing it).
A balance would certainly be best, but I've never really gotten that.
Has anyone ever taken a workshop in which peer comments have been helpful? In the one workshop I took, almost everyone in the class hated my writing with the exception of the instructor, who liked it a lot. What I got most of out the experience was his feedback saying, "work on this one more, this isn't your best work." I think my peers didn't like it cause it was too quirky or something, which is exactly what I'm banking on not happening at an MFA program...
While I think I would choose that as well, I have had profs that had more balance (or peers) and as someone who regularly rips apart my own work without any help from others (haha), I find it really helpful to know what is worth keeping. Sometimes though you can get that from just new drafts.
frankish, i think that's a good point. It's likely that critiques will become tougher as one moves on to higher and higher education. This makes sense. Not everyone in an undergraduate workshop is thinking about making writing a serious part of their life so they probably don't need or even want an honest critique.
Personally, I think the main difference is between criticism and constructive criticism. I personally have a problem with someone saying something like "I hated this piece". Not only does that make me feel like crap, it doesn't help me. Now that same person could say, "I felt like the dialogue was stale and the character was unbelievable and here are some examples." I find the second comment, while harsh, to be miles above the first and honestly, I am more likely to listen to that. If any professor is just going to tell me something sucks without stating a reason, I'm going to feel like they are just being unnecessarily mean and unhelpful.
Yes, it'd be worthless without an explanation of why. No point in pointing anything out if you can't explain yourself.
I'm trying to get better at pinpointing exactly what it is I don't like about a story and why. I've been reading submissions for a journal and I'm hoping this is helping to hone those skills.
I think the basic function of criticism in general is to find out whether what you are doing works or not. "This sucks," though harsh, is the simplest and sometimes the best way to answer that question. Being a poet, it's not all that offensive when you get a comment like that though you just think, "Ok, hey, thanks, I was trying something new there, but give me an hour and I'll have a new one for you." With fiction, I could see that being much more irksome. Working on a story for a month only to have a professor say that... would be hell. I still think it would be helpful though.
If you don't mind my asking, what workshops were you folks taking? My experience has been a bit different. Of course, my writing might not have been as good either. :D
In high school, I did a little bit of creative writing, and the teachers were very encouraging and not too critical (though none of them wished they wrote like me, of that I'm sure), but I can see where they were coming from with such young students. If they hadn't been as encouraging I probably wouldn't have applied for any creative writing classes in college, where I originally planned to major in math.
Freshman year of college I lucked out and was able to take a fiction craft seminar instead of the required composition course. Marjorie Sandor was the instructor (this was a long time ago), and she was great. I also took a couple of workshops with Susan Dodd later on, who was also fantastic. Both of them were encouraging but also brought up some issues with my work. At the time I was either too young or too stupid to understand the criticism fully, but, years later, I realize they were right on the money. Admittedly, they could have been harsher or more brutally honest, but then I might not have continued on with creative writing. It's a tough balance to strike. I think they handled it correctly for a student who was obviously a beginner.
Once I got to graduate school (did an MA creative writing at Hollins) the gloves were off. All of the professors there were kind but forthright with their criticism. I remember in one workshop, the teacher read my poem and said, "This sucks, I'm really disappointed." At the time I was pissed off, but reading the piece today it is the single worst thing I ever wrote. She was doing me a favor.
Anyway, unless you are very fortunate to work with someone exceptional early on, I think the further along the educational curve you are the more fully honest and brutal (and helpful, but only if you're a developed enough writer to handle it) the criticism becomes.
With respect to balanced criticism, if my work is being reviewed I generally don't care about any ego stroking and just want to know what doesn't work for readers. As somebody giving criticism, I always try to balance what I thought worked well and what didn't work for me. It's hard to do so with tact sometimes, but the single most valuable input a reader can give is to let the writer know when he or she got bored (at least in my opinion). I have to read the work in workshop, but if I got bored outside of academia, I'd probably just not read any further.
The issue is further complicated by balancing the needs of the audience vs. artistic integrity. If the audience hates it, it might be because they didn't get it. And if they didn't get it, is that a failing on the part of the reader or the writer?
They address me by my (never used) first name, so it's not some random internet thing. But the programs are all a bit off-target. Can't figure out if one of the schools is selling its list or if the GRE people ignored the 'do not whore my infos' checkbox.
Any insight? (Not like I'm going to take the schools to task*)
I sent my stuff in mid-nov and didn't get any confirmation. I emailed Terri Zollo and she confirmed that I was all set a few wks later. Maybe they didn't send confirmation to everybody. It seems like quite a lot of people never heard back. Although I just got my WUSTL confirmation and I sent that out in early Nov.
No spam here. A few of the schools I applied to have been pretty aggressive about sending information along (guide to the city, guide to student housing, etc.), but I like it. It's not an acceptance, but at least it's not a rejection. :D
I checked the don't bother me box on the GRE, too. Maybe mine was just too recent (took it at end of December).
i naively checked the 'yes contact me about my chosen field' box on the gres, and blame most spam on that. at first it caused me some doubt (maybe i should've considered notre dame's program, as these two e-mails have told me), but now they're just a nuisance as my heart skips a beat every time i see the letters 'mfa' in the subject of an email.
I get what you're saying but I just wanted to point out that poems aren't written that fast. An hour? Maybe for a few people. Poems take many hours, maybe days, and revising may take several months. The last poem I wrote took me three months to write (not including time revising).
Pretty much the same experience as you and Brandi. A lot of teachers and peers telling me I was special, that it was only a matter of time before I would be "discovered", calling my stories brilliant etc. I don't even really care about the critiques that some people give me anymore. At first they were more balanced, but after them telling me "this is great, oh this is really brilliant etc." I'm not really getting anything that I can use.
Brandi/coughdrop/salt etc. -
I had a sculpture professor that was notorious for being too harsh on his students. And then one day, the students confronted him about it. He broke into tears and ran off, convinced all of his students hated him. The next semester he loved everyones work and simply nodded when he wanted to say something else. I think finding a balanced professor can be tough but not impossible. Yes, a lot of these people are teaching as a means to an end but some of them might actually like teaching and really excel at it. Personally, whenever I review other people's work, I find that I become better at reviewing my own because I'm able to articulate what's wrong with another person's story and then realize I may be doing the same thing. My rule is that I have to find one compliment for every two constructive things I say. Telling someone what works is just as important as telling them what doesn't.
But balance is also hard to find because sometimes the people we connect with at first eventually become too close to your work and then they can't see past it. Hmm . . .
Plan B: Move to a small town in Iowa to take care of my grandfather. He was recently diagnosed with dementia, is living with his sister who he can't stand, and is giving her all kinds of grief. If I move there, I'll just get a cafe job (and tutor college/high school English) and try this application process for the third time. Plan C: ESL teaching in Korea or China. I have some friends who did that and I have some leads on reputable places. Plan D: In the words of Lewis Black "bottle of wine, bathtub, and some razor blades".
I get what you are saying too. At the same time, unless you are writing a 100 line poem, most poems are between 20-30 (that are published in a journal). To write a first draft of a poem that length shouldn't take all that long, the reason being that you find your conceit and then you drive it home. What's more, I think that's a good thing. I'm not advocating a Ginsbergian mantra such as "first thought, best thought," but I think most of these programs have a certain zen-aesthetics that if not all that different (i.e. a poem is a momentary thing). So if you are super-attentive to craft, you better at least do it in a Yeatsian fashion a la "a line may take us an hour maybe..." Not saying this makes poetry better or worse--it is what it is--I'm just saying that it is that.
Oh, and someone was questioning Uni San Francisco's funding earlier? I have no idea if things have changed, but last year I know two people that were given $10,000 entrance scholarships to that program.
@salt-- Re: Harshness of Profs, because I've had a decidedly different experience in undergrad. For me, what to expect in workshop was apparent when I learned the names of my instructors-- it was a very individual thing, they all taught differently, but certainly no exclusive patting-on-the-back.
My intro workshop was all "critique", mixes of constructive criticism and some slight pointing out of "parts that worked". It was taught by an adjunct who I love dearly to this day.
My poetry workshop was with a lovely Southern gentleman (when he read poetry with that understated twang, girls fainted ;) ) who turned every piece of criticism into the sweetest, most helpful collection of words he could come up with. He might be telling you the poem sucked, but in a way that encouraged you to go back and rewrite.
My fiction workshops were taught by the notorious curmudgeon of the faculty. He disliked writing that did not resemble his own, put more emphasis on how you looked and acted during class than what you said, and had a list of "rules concerning what can never appear in a story" (included words such as swig, swirl, and so forth that were never to appear in our stories, as well as story-writing musts such as: if a female character is doing a "male job" [in this case, police], it's because of a major failure in the men of her town/city. You must explain this failure). He single-handedly quartered the population of Creative Writing majors (someone had to do it, I suppose...) with his withering "critiques".
Let's just say, the poet wrote my letter of recommendation, even though I'm a fiction writer. He wrote me a dern good one, too.
Sorry about the rant. Just wanted to say not everyone's unergrad workshops were encouraging.
Ahhhh today I received an e-mail from Texas State that said "CONGRATULATIONS... on your decision to apply to the Texas State - San Marcos graduate school." I never really believed it was an acceptance because it's too early (their deadline was 5 days ago!) but the wording could have easily caused me to have a heart attack.
In the interest of getting as many eyeballs as my stories as possible before sending them off with my app, I had my youngest brother read them. That was a mistake because he's not a "reader" by any stretch of the imagination and had the gall to label one of my stories as "chick lit." I about e-tore his head off.
... But it did make me think about whether it was lit for baby chickens. (It's not, I swear!)
A lot of you guys have scored teaching jobs. Mind walking a hopeless wanderer through it? Especially the overseas opportunities. Which companies have you used?
For anyone who applied to University of British Columbia, I found an MFA thesis writing blog of a student who is currently in the program. I didn't apply there but just thought I'd share:
OK, so I just got the umass Juniper Summer Writing Institute brochure in the mail. I knew it was coming because I someone else on this blog had mentioned receiving it. (Still my brain couldn’t stop my heart from pounding as I opened it!) Here is my question - Did everyone receive this brochure? It feels like a rejection. Why would they send a summer brochure to admitted MFA students? It feels like a “thanks for playing.” Sorry the MFA thing didn’t work out...but come to our summer program. I know this isn’t rational. I'm being ridiculous! I’m sure all the MFA applicants are automatically added to the Juniper mailing list. But still...
Also, does this mean that a bunch of past Juniper summer writing students have an "in" to the MFA program? Are they all being accepted right now!?! Yikes. I need a new hobby. Can you tell umass is my first choice?
@Cate: I can't tell you if everyone got the Juniper mailing thing, but I can tell you that I did. I'm pretty sure it just goes to everyone. They can't have their final list yet, right?! They are one of my top choices, too!
Hi, I'm a longtime "lurker" (which sounds so evil, but it's only because I'm shy and don't feel that I have anything new worth saying). But now I have a question, so I'm making myself known (and incidentally, this is my first post on any blog whatsoever). The question: I received an e-mail today from Columbia stating that they must receive the FAFSA by Feb. 15. My employer's always slow in getting the W-2's out, so I'm sure I won't get mine until the W-2 deadline (Feb. 1), and then I've got to file 2009 taxes before I can fill out the FAFSA. So, does anyone know if I should go ahead and fill out the FAFSA with 2008 information, or should I wait and rush at the last minute so that I can include 2009 info? Columbia's one of my top choices, but I know for a fact that I can't possibly go there if I don't get some significant aid, so it's important that I fill out the FAFSA. Any advice? (Just when I thought all the crunch with apps was over....)
It's been truly wonderful to read the posts and feel less alone in this agonizing process. I, too, was waiting for an Alabama call with several of you this week and was relieved that I wasn't the only neurotic person foolishly thinking they'd be consistent with last year's notification schedule.
OK, sorry for the long post. But I'm happy to have finally come out of hiding to join the rest of you. You're a great group, and this blog has helped calm (and heighten, at times) my anxieties!
If you're doing something overseas, I suggest going with a company/program that is affiliated with an embassy/consulate. These gigs usually pay a lot more and there's at least some assurance that you won't be screwed over by a corrupt manager that regards you as "the foreign problem" (it happens) (Korea has some really sweet deals tied to the dept. of education). Also, some TEFL/TESL certificate programs help place you with a job. A friend of mine did a program in Prague and when she was finished with her training, she was placed with a job. In Japan I'd say Berlitz and ECC are the best large companies but there are also many smaller schools that give you a lot more freedom to teach at universities, corporations, tailor your own lessons etc. A couple of my friends that have decided to stay in Japan, China, Peru etc. are now working directly for the Board of education (once you make some connections and can speak the native language, doors will open up). If you already have a teaching certificate (i.e. credentialed to teach high school or already have a masters or PHD), there are some very well-paying gigs in the United Arab Emirates.
I got the same email and plan to fill out the forms using my 2008 tax return. Some years I have income reported via K-1 that I don't get until August. :/
Anyway, if I understand correctly, applying with 2008 return data and then updating as soon as you have a 2009 return done is sufficient to keep you in the running for financial aid.
Of course, I'm no expert. You might want to call Columbia's financial aid office and get the skinny.
Based on my prior FAFSA experience, you should *definitely* fill it out with your best guesstimate--ASAP.
It's ok if your estimate later turns out to a little off--you're allowed to re-do your information once you have your 2009 taxes. Plus, the FAFSA isn't super precise anyway. They seem to do EFCs in increments of a thousand dollars, perhaps more.
Of course, I've never done the FAFSA for an MFA before, but I've done it for college and law school, and my Jan. 1 guesstimate was always fine for the first go-round. The main thing to worry about is speed (rather than accuracy)--lots of financial aid money is first come first serve, so you've got to send your info in as early in the year as possible.
Once you get your W-2 for 2009, you should be able to make some estimates on your taxes and be able to fill out the FAFSA forms. You needn't be exact. Also, if your pay is the same/similar as 2008 then you should be able to base your estimates off that as well.
i may have done it wrong, but when i filled out the fafsa, it just asked for information straight from my W-2, so i assumed my taxes didn't need to be filed to provide the correct information.
well, it seemed too easy and numbers are not my forte, so i could very well be wrong. or, as my co-worker says in between making siren noises, "RED ALERT! JOURNALIST DOING MATH!"
Thanks, all. FYI: Columbia also requires a "Need Access" application by February 15, which costs an additional $28 and seems to involve more detailed info than the FAFSA. According to the "Need Access" website, Columbia appears to be the only Writing MFA that requires this form (most of the other programs are schools of law or medicine). Urgh. I can't believe how expensive applying to Columbia has turned out to be, and I feel so foolish, because even if I get in I likely can't afford to go there. But I also have some fully-funded programs on my list, so it's not as if I've put all my eggs in the Columbia basket. It just feels ridiculous that I'm shelling out even more money for an application that's probably pointless.
I'm so afraid of not getting in anywhere - but perhaps even worse would be to get admitted only to programs I couldn't afford to attend!
OK, this blogging stuff can be fun :) It's nice to have a place to vent!
phillywriter, I hear you! I didn't apply to Columbia, but I did end up applying to a number of schools that only offer funding to some schools. Montana, Kansas, UNCW, Texas State, possibly Georgia College & State University, Florida Atlantic, Southern Illinois. I worry about what i will do if I'm only accepted somewhere without funding. I'm not sure yet what I would do. I would want to attend but I might have to wait and reapply. I think it would depend on the cost. I'd be willing to take out some loans but I don't want to end up in huge debt... Good luck! Hopefully you (or WE, or everybody who posts here) can get funded somewhere and not have to worry about it!
Hi, everyone. Thanks for being my awesome distraction lately :) I applied to Ohio State, which means I'll be hearing (or not) from that one school on my list, in a week or so. Yikes. Funny how quiet my cell phone looks.
Anyway, out of total perpetually poverty-stricken curiosity: To those applying to schools that don't fund, how will you pay for your MFA? Loans for tuition plus a full-time job for food/rent? Or something else I don't know about?
If you're looking to teach in Japan, I recommend the JET Program. It has a great support system, you get paid a really decent wage, and the workload isn't overwhelming.
http://www.jetprogramme.org/
The application process is kind of long, but I think it's worth it. I enjoyed my three years teaching. I'm doing translation work in Tokyo now.
I second the JET programme in Japan - I had a friend who did that programme for two years then spent the third year teaching independently in Tokyo. I visited him when he was there and he absolutely loved everything about his time there - I could see why. Very appealing for Japanophiles. He's also got a shitload of writing material from it; I'm pretty jealous.
I have planned to teach abroad (Taiwan) though Reach to Teach (www.reachtoteachrecruiting.com). I've heard good things about them. They also place teachers in South Korea and China. I still plan to go through them in I get all rejections. Otherwise I will plan on going after I complete my MFA, unless I end up with a lucrative offer straight away. I've wanted to teach abroad for years, so I still plan to do it some day. I think this is a great plan B for anybody who is in a flexible position who wants teaching experience and cultural exchange.
I’m sure you will. ...either that or you’re still in the running, and Danielle and I got the consolation prize. =)
oh no, my stomach just dropped at the mere thought of rejection.
I imagine the worst part about getting rejected is seeing people post their acceptances in FEBRUARY and having to come to terms with the fact that my rejection is coming via snail mail in APRIL!
hey POETS-- i need some help. i have a super talented poet friend who, for various sad family reasons, didn't send out her mfa apps. i'm trying to convince her it's not too late. she's down in the dumps and i'm trying to GALVANIZE her into ACTION!
does anyone know which poetry programs are still accepting applications-- like with feb 1 (or later) deadlines?? and preferably ones with generous funding packages?? any leads would be incredible. thank you so much.
all the best to everyone and really hope the calls come flooding in soon!
a few places your friend might look at with still active deadlines:
Boston U (1 Mar) UNLV (15 Feb) Ole Miss (1 Feb)
and if they're interested in Naropa, it might not hurt to call the program. Their deadline is 15 Jan, but last year they were still taking apps after the deadline. It's a bit of a unique program, so the friend might want to research their contemplative education first to see if it's up their alley.
Those are the programs I know of with applications still open. There may be others.
Wichita State is the only school I know of that is still taking applications that goes not require the GRE. However, I would suggest that your friend not just apply to schools because it's too late to apply to others... Rushing to apply isn't ideal. Waiting until next year might be a better idea. If she can find a few schools that she would really want to attend, she should apply, but don't encourage her to end up somewhere that's not right for her just because it is available.
@ashley brooke... i hear what you're saying, and i'd tend to agree, since from my own experience this app season it was SO MUCH WORK. but...well....it's complicated. she has her portfolio together etc etc but her family disapproves of the mfa, she got really down about it, and i'm now i'm trying to be a life coach of sorts, rousing her from the depths. but now it requires reformulating the game plan. but i don't want to see her go thru another year of cocktail waitressing at a divey pool bar making $2.15 an hour. so depressing...
@alana, yep i don't know if i'm having second thoughts as much as third thoughts, like shit, should i apply to more schools!? so i'm debating adding Eastern Washington to the list. my poor recommenders.... i remember we applied to the same schools. do you not like those choices anymore?
Regarding your question about non-funded MFAs--I'm applying to only low-res programs. I few programs have some merit/need-based scholarships, but not much over 1k. I've been out of school for a few years now, but I work full time and have been saving up, so I know I won't have to go into debt at this point. And there's that little something called the *cough*GIbill*cough* Err, you didn't see that. (ducks behind table) (It comes with lots of story fodder)
Another option might be to look for programs that have Spring admissions (there are some...I'll see if I can dig some up in awhile), that way she only has to wait a year to start school instead of a year and a half.
luling, Well, I definitely wish her (and you) luck. If she only ends up applying to a few places, make sure that she doesn't completely give up if she doesn't give in this time! It's pretty late but not impossible.
Okay, luling...I am what is know as, well...a loser. So, I decided to figure out (using the handy dandy guide on Poets & Writers) which schools are still a possibility for your friend. You'll have to weed through and see which are a financial possibility and which are in locations she'd like. I did this REALLY quickly and may have messed up on a couple, but here goes.
Poetry programs, No GRE, still active deadlines: Adelphi University (Feb 1) American University (Feb 1) Butler University (Mar 15) CSU Fresno (Feb 19) CSU Long Beach (Feb 15) Hamline University (March 1) Minnesota State, Mankato (Feb 1) Minnesota State, Moorhead (March 1) New Mexico State (Feb 1) Northern Michigan (Feb 1) Otis (Feb 15) Queens College (Feb 15) Roosevelt University (Feb 1) San Jose State (Feb 1) Southern Connecticut State University (March 1) University of Baltimore (Feb 1) UC, Riverside (Feb 1) University of Idaho (Feb 1) University of Missouri, St. Louis (Feb 15) University of San Francisco (Feb 1)
@emily.... WOW. you are another saint hovering in the midst of mfa madness. T H A N K Y O U ! i should've checked out the PW guide, i haven't used that resource enough; i am compelled to say thanks in every language i can think of::: gracias, merci grazie terima kasih, bayardlha (spelled wrong, mongolian), xie xie, m'goy, ok i think you get the picture= lots of gratitude.
and also everyone else's advice and school suggestions, etc. thanks for being so helpful.
@philly and any other columbia university applicants - i looked up that Need Access thing - it's all law schools etc! i think it's outrageous that columbia is the only arts school that wants it. my question is - is it mandatory? the only shot at aid? it's crazy that they want more on top of their exorbitant app fee.
Good morning, fellow applicants. This is my first post, though I've been enjoying the past few mailbag's worth of discussion for several weeks. What a vibrant community you've created, albeit instigated in part by individual neuroses.
After tinkering with my poems until Thanksgiving, I decided to give up and apply in CNF. I wrote my manuscript last month, picked out eleven schools, labored over SOPs. Now, having completed eight applications, I've got time to really check out faculty work, their teaching philosophies, etc (totally backwards, I know). From what I've read so far, each prof has a wildly different approach to nonfiction: memoir, personal journalism, personal essay, lyric essay, etc.
If there's any CNF stragglers out there, I'm curious: what did you submit for your writing sample? Memoir, portraits, more journalistic stuff? If anyone wants to swap, I'm at:
bohnhor2 at msu dot edu.
I'm afraid my essays are going to come off as incoherent spams of self-wonderment. "Who's this 24- year-old snot who thinks she has life all figured out?" I can see the adcoms now, circled around a big oak table, reading my platitudes aloud to each other and laughing so hard they nearly tip over in their wheelie chairs. I'm sorry, adcoms, for any sustained injury my laughable prose have caused you.
ElizabethB, i'm CNF too. i submitted two essays, but i'm afraid one of them doesn't even qualify as an essay. it's very vignetty.. like "meditations" from places i had traveled. and the other is a personal essay, a love story (which could be gag-worthy, i really don't know). so that's what i sent, though i'm really not so confident about them. oh well. i'd be happy to swap with you though!
anybody else that wants to swap CNF samples, feel free to send them and i'll do the same. we can pass the time reading each other's essays that one day will be optioned for movie rights and garner us lots of awards and book deals and well... anyway, i'm luling (dot) osofsky (at) gmail.com
i feel compelled to thank everyone again for their help with my friend's poetry list! emily, if you come to SF, ima buy you a drink.
Columbia says the $28 Need Access thing is absolutely required if you want to be considered for any funding from Columbia. Ridiculous, as I said in my earlier post :(
But I've taken it this far, so I might as well plunk another $28 down on a school I probably won't get into and almost definitely can't afford even if I do....
Thanks for your reply. Nobody else seems to want to discuss how it is they can manage to attend non-funded programs.
I'm so totally in awe of anybody who's saved up money to attend school -- and in this economy! That's awesome. And we won't mention the (*cough*) other thing :)-- though it is something to be proud of, if you ask me :)
I can't attend a non-funded program without serious loans. I have very little savings and am still paying off student loans from undergrad and my husband's student loans from an MFA in painting. (Incidentally, we writers are actually lucky; there are virtually no funded MFA programs in the visual arts.)
I applied mostly to fully funded programs, with only a couple exceptions (such as Columbia) for programs that are really, really good. In which case I'm pretty much hoping for a funding miracle.
Yep, about a year ago on this blog there was a bit of an epic discussion about paying for Columbia, if anyone's interested...I mean, if anyone's interested I can track down the link to that thread. It has tons of details re. Columbia's (lack of) funding, in particular.
@ Eli, a link to that would be great to read even though I didn't apply to Columbia.
I think k is right when saying the majority of those frequenting these blogs are those who can't or won't pay for an mfa out of pocket.
I think the only ones I applied to that aren't full are Houston, Colo. State, and UNLV, all of which do have a lot of funding to give out, but not full rides to everyone.
But lots of people who post here have Columbia on their lists -- or other New York schools. I just wonder if I missed some awesome idea, whether I could have applied to those unfunded schools after all. Little late now, I know :)
And thank you for your replies. I do know to be grateful -- that MFAs in the performing/visual arts are not usually funded. We're lucky schools need us as cheap labor to teach Freshman Comp. :)
@Ryan - sure thing dude, I'm trying to find it. As far as I remember it was an epic debate on Columbia funding during application season last year, with lots of precise details about available funding...if anyone else knows what/where it is and can find it quicker than me, then brilliant!
With respect to Columbia, yeah...they're killing us by inches with these fees. Some supplementary materials (GRE report, letter of rec) were late, and they took them, but I had to pay a $70 late materials fee. On the other hand, a year or two ago (I believe), someone from Columbia posted here that they do have material funding (although it may not make up for the price of living in Manhattan) but don't advertise it. YMMV
As for funding, I applied to schools with funding options, as well. I don't have much savings to pay for school but would be willing to take *some* student loan debt. Believing transparency is the best policy, I added a few lines to my statement of purpose/personal statement saying that I planned to pay for grad school by some combination of fellowship, TAship, and student loans. If I get into one of the programs that only funds some students and am not one of the funded, I'll have to pass on that option.
I applied to a lot of schools for that reason...not only need to get accepted but need to get accepted with funding, so the odds are probably against me.
I don't know how cheap the labor is; after all, if you get full tuition waved plus a stipend plus healthcare you get a free couple of years where all you have to do is teach a few freshers and write? That ain't bad at all. Sure, that teaching is time-consuming, but not that "hard," surely.
frankish, are you kidding me? $70 dollar late fee? Excuse me, but fuck that sideways! So let's tally it up: $100 app fee plus $70 plus gre scores are what $23 now? Plus transcript fee of at least $5 each? plus postage? You just spent ove $200 on ONE application. I'm with Seth when he said NO ONE should go into 30k+ of debt over an MFA, and I think that applies here, too. I can't imagine paying that muchh money without a knowing it was sure thing I'd get in.
Ryan, I understand. That's why I said killing us by inches. Originally, I debated the $100 fee (plus usual GRE/transcript costs) but decided to go for it. Had I known I'd be paying another $100 in Need Access and Late Materials fees, I probably wouldn't have applied. Once I'd done all the work to send in my application, though, it seemed a shame not to have it considered. Slippery slope....
In retrospect, I should have set a strict budget for the whole application process (duh!). I ended up spending quite a bit (although Columbia was the only expensive school) but (at least for the sake of my own sanity) look at it as an investment, albeit a speculative one, to increase my chances of landing a funded slot.
So, does this work? https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=15642985&postID=3117503455194279442 If you scroll down there's a pretty epic Columbia debate here! BUT i'm positive there was a longer one with more funding details elsewhere, which would probably be far more useful.
We shouldn't have to pay for higher education -- PERIOD. It should be merit-based and funded (at least free tuition), like in the EU. Eli and others from abroad could, I'm sure, speak to this better than I can. But our entire US system of higher education is f*cked. A state school, like Michigan or Cal Berkley for example, partially supported by tax dollars and founded to serve the community shouldn't charge in-state tuition of $20,000+. Especially for an undergraduate degree, which is an entry-level requirement into the job market. Our misplaced priorities in this area have created a national crisis because it means the American workforce isn't equipped to compete with the rest of the developed world. And our brightest students (present company excluded) all become lawyers or investment bankers because that's the only way they can pay back their student loans.
It's all supply and demand. Demand drives the marketplace, and education is a very lucrative market. There's no reason to feel entitled to post-graduate education when, on a superficial level, you are going to live a solipsistic life and contribute little or nothing to society. We should feel lucky that we have an oppurtunity (which is merit based) to study (again, for the most part, this means obsessing about our own selves and writing, binging on coffee and/or alcohol, and disposing ourselves towards first years undergrads in a 'I'm the master of writing' sort of fashion for the next two or three years) for free at the schools at all. Even if my writing was drop dead gorgeous (which it's not), I would never feel entitled to a life of relative luxury because of it. Not trying to be offensive, those are just my thoughts. One can be too gracious, but the vast majority of us prefer it to its opposite.
I don't think Tribe was saying he feels entitled, I think he was speaking more about the imbalance in the education system. I feel the same way that he does; it does, at times, feel like a racket. But luckily, our profession isn't about what we can do for ourselves, but being informants of the world, even if no one ever reads our work. Going to grad school is a luxury, to be sure, but it is a luxury that is also necessary in our society, and seems some places are charging for both.
I know we say things like "informants of the world" and "necessary for society" but that is inside talk, writer talk. Who outside the writing community would agree with that? 99 people out of 100 would label journalists as "informants of the world" long before writers would even come across their minds. My point is simply this: we, or those of us that get it, are lucky to get monetary compensation for writing for 2-3 years. Many tax payers would probably be outraged that fiction andf poetry writing programs have funding at all, especially in these disadvantageous times. Even writers themselves have questioned wether writing has any real value (Auden's 'Does Poetry Matter?" immediately jumps to mind), such that, when it comes down to it, the reason why we do this (or try) is because we (you, me, everyone else who wants to be a writer and then no one else) love it. Let's not pretend it's some sense of obligation stemming from altruistic sensibilities. Sure, there are consequences that may benefit society, but that's not why we do it. We do it for ourselves, because anyone who's done it before knows that 'it's a hell of a thing for a work of art to come out of you.' We are all chasing that feeling. Respek.
@John - I'm not talking about myself at all. I have zero complaints about the way things have gone. I'm a Columbia undergraduate and, to be honest, Columbia has been amazingly good to me. They, basically, took me out of the ghetto when I was 18 (and incredibly stupid) and have put me in a position where my biggest concern right now is whether or not Joel Brouwer will like my sestina. Please say "yes", Joel!
My concern is with the system. I grew up with some kids who were brilliant, practically born with clever insights into how things work and how to work them. But they learned at an early age that education wasn't merit-based and wasn't available to the poor. So, instead of contributing their gifts to the greater society, a lot of them are now a drain on the system. This country is missing out on innovative engineers and brilliant medical researchers because our system doesn't exploit this country's indigenous resources. Instead, we outsource to countries that educate their people for free or import our high-end skilled laborers pre-packaged and ready to go. And, to make things worse, ghetto kids who are brilliant enough to make it out don't go back to the community they came from to contribute those gifts and inspire others because they've almost inevitably become corporate lawyers or investment bankers who are busy working their @sses off to pay off the loans they couldn't afford. Importing would be great, if we had a population problem. But the people who are here aren't going anywhere. Society will either have to utilize them or pay the price of crime, drug addiction, etc.
I'm not saying Europe is better -- I remember the Paris riots from years ago. It may be worse, for all I know. But at least college tuition is free for the kids who test well (though the testing system has its own biases, I know) but its a better system for the poor than our system where brilliant performance gets kids an @ss beating on the playground instead of free tuition.
Yes, I understand your opinion, John, but I respectfully disagree. I'm not arguing for what we as writers feel about our own work, I'm speaking to what is important about it in the larger perspective.
To speak of the reality of funding for a second: The reason that MFA students get funded is , for the most part, because they fill entry level positions teaching freshmen composition or something comparable. University's are businesses, and this money that funded people receive is not 'free', unless they are on fellowship. Even with waiving tuition, they university is more than likely still making a margin of profit by 'hiring' MFA students to do the grunt work in exchange for their education, plus a little extra. If enrollment is down, then there aren't as many positions available.
So, if an outsider came to ask why these people were getting all of this money, then that would be the answer. After all, it isn't really, on those basic terms, a 'free ride' for the student. But it is an excellent deal for someone who is in the position to enter a program and accept the conditions, to pursue the craft and to become part of what Carl Phillips calls "the constant movement" that all writers belong to.
Just read the John/Kitty exchange - FYI, I'm a girl. Pleased to meet you!
Also, I just want to be clear that I'm not talking about the merits of writing -- although, I do think it's quite valuable. I just wanted to point out the fact that for poor kids, even if they're brilliant, the very thought of going to college as an undergraduate -- whether they are aspiring engineers, doctors or dancers -- is the experience that many people are having here in regard to the Columbia or NYU or Sarah Lawrence MFA: Yea! I got in because I'm smart and talented. Too bad I can't go because I have, literally, no way to come up with the money I would need to attend. The f*cked up thing is that there are kids who can't put together the money to attend, as an undergraduate, one of the state institutions that (theoretically) exist to serve their community because the tuition at state schools are so expensive, too.
It's not a supply/demand issue. We have huge demand in what 99 out of 100 people would probably agree are vital fields, such as nursing and engineering. Unfortunately, our priorities are skewed to value a perceived immediate payoff instead of a necessary long-term investment. So we aren't investing in the workforce that we need to fill these positions. These skewed priorities are the reason a bridge in the twin cities collapsed and New Orleans was drowned, not by a hurricane, but by an inadequate levy system that the inspectors knew would collapse under stress. Because our system is set up to pay $10 later instead of a penny now.
Kitty makes a good point. The fact is, undergraduates are more likely to be taught by a GTA or an adjunct professor than they are by full-time faculty (at least at most large universities). Universities ARE businesses and graduate students are a way of cutting costs while continuing to train future academics (at least the small percentage that make it that far).
Also, as far as "necessity" I think you can see above. But more than this, the recession is making the job market harder to enter for young people (or people of any age for that matter) and advanced degrees are becoming the status quo for many professions. When people with 10-20 years experience are taking positions that would have gone to new graduates or even people years out of college, how is one to even the playing field? I will agree that an MFA (in anything) may be more of a luxury than other graduate degree, however, what degree guarantees any kind of job anymore? Newly minted lawyers are working as accountants, at Fed-ex, or are living with their parents as they scour job ads. People in the applied sciences are taking large pay cuts just to have a job. Long ago (long before most people on this blog were born including myself), a college education meant that you would likely get a job after graduation. While this meant a full workforce, it didn't necessarily translate to a competent or happy one. We're living in a society where connecting the dots isn't enough. People have to strive to excel, think creatively, and take initiative and most people don't do those things. In this respect, maybe the type of person applying to MFA programs (obviously not all) is better equipped to deal with a wider range of situations and occupations.
Hmmm... seems to me some fuzzy math, but I'll be willing to go along with it.
But then, where I'm still a little aloof: you are saying the "larger perspective" of writing is that universities are sweat shops, slave-driving TA's? That doesn't seem like a larger perspective, and I can't understand what's important about it. Not trying to offend you, just trying to understand your point(s)...
Trilbe,
I agree completely. Government is beaurocratic. Go to Washington DC and sit in the House or Senate galaries on Cap Hill. You will be amazed that they actually accomplish what they do. Still though, I am of the opinion we are entitled to nothing in this life (even education) and we should be grateful for everything we get). Don't get me wrong, I want to and do help those less fortunate than me, but I am really of the opinion that the truly humble individual is grateful for anything--even life itself.
@trilbe on the education debate, it's a difficult argument, but i definitely agree with you that Europe and most of the world have it right with free education. It's not just about uni. either, though. It starts from the bottom. America in general cares less about education than almost any other country, and it shows in the workforce and the way business is handled around the nation. This is a huge black hole of an argument because it brings up poverty vs. wealth, education vs. none, not to mention the way families work in the US nowadays (ie the number of kids being born out of wedlock and into a clusterfuck of a broken home), etc. (because poverty is linked to education is linked to crime, etc.). I'll let someone else take it from here, because I have magic bag next to me with a million things to say about this subject.
To pay for my applications I have been selling my plasma (as in, blood) for the last few months. I go twice/week, used to get $70/week but they've since lowered it to $50. Another month or two and I'll have the expenses covered. Then I'm getting a tattoo! ; )
@John - I don't think we disagree, actually. I'm extremely grateful for everything I have been given. I've gone to private schools my whole life -- my entire education has been an act of charity. But I would like to be clear: I'm not talking about education as entitlement, at all. I'm talking about dollars and cents, fundamental investment math. From the 1930s until the junk bond era of the 1970s-1980s, investing was (basically) about analyzing the fundamental elements of an opportunity to determine its value. Student loan rates were 1% (or even a fraction of a percentage point) and state college tuition, relative to the current value of the US dollar, was what community colleges now charge. Back then, investment income was steady but relatively low, there were few bubbles and no crashes. And a college education was valued as an investment in middle class stability.
I disagree with most of what you've said, but I think the bulk of my contention has been covered by others.
You say that taxpayers wouldn't be happy if they knew we were being paid to write for 2-3 years. Where do taxpayers figure in full funding? Most full funding programs, if not all of them, get their funding from private sources, i.e. individual, corporate, and foundation contributions. I should know; I work in fundraising. This includes public universities which maintain private foundations to accept charitable contributions, which are then funneled to the university programs. If you're referring to FAFSA money (which is not applicable in full funding scenarios), most of that is loan money, so taxpayers actually make money off of people like us pursuing our writing for 2-3 years and paying interest back to the government for the rest of our lives. (Pell grants are extremely difficult to qualify for.)
@ Trible
I see your point with state colleges, especially CA's situation. But it is just the reality of how the system works right now. Most state schools have their tuitions as low as they can go. They try to make up for budget shortfalls with charitable contributions, but in especially difficult times like these endowments and stocks drop, which affects the amount of donations from every source. The only way to not have an insurmountable deficit without firing faculty is to increase earned income, i.e. tuition.
I disagree with most of what you've said, but I think the bulk of my contention has been covered by others.
You say that taxpayers wouldn't be happy if they knew we were being paid to write for 2-3 years. Where do taxpayers figure in full funding? Most full funding programs, if not all of them, get their funding from private sources, i.e. individual, corporate, and foundation contributions. I should know; I work in fundraising. This includes public universities which maintain private foundations to accept charitable contributions, which are then funneled to the university programs. If you're referring to FAFSA money (which is not applicable in full funding scenarios), most of that is loan money, so taxpayers actually make money off of people like us pursuing our writing for 2-3 years and paying interest back to the government for the rest of our lives. (Pell grants are extremely difficult to qualify for.)
@ Trible
I see your point with state colleges, especially CA's situation. But it is just the reality of how the system works right now. Most state schools have their tuitions as low as they can go. They try to make up for budget shortfalls with charitable contributions, but in especially difficult times like these endowments and stocks drop, which affects the amount of donations from every source. The only way to not have an insurmountable deficit without firing faculty is to increase earned income, i.e. tuition.
State schools are given money by state governments, which comes from taxes. Some of this is allocated to MFA programs, which is a fact. I'm not saying it is a huge amount, simply that it is. It's not enough to make your average taxpayer cry for arms, but, all other things being equal, it is one more government expense at which they are likely to scowl.
Also, I fail to see how your work in fund raising has anything to do with with MFA program budgets, unless you are a fundraiser at an MFA program or something tangential. But I'm really not trying to make anyone angry here. I think Trible and I recognize that we were talking about two different things from the start.
It's a bit sad that business interests have done such a good job at framing the terms of the debate. We accept that universities are businesses, even though they're mostly public institutions. Public institutions exist to provide a benefit to the public, not to make money, even so that they can perpetuate themselves. It's a society investing in its people. It's also sad that we're left to justify education in terms of workforce readiness. That kind of machine age, factory-oriented thinking has much to do with why people are miserable today. CNN ran a story a couple of weeks ago about how record numbers of Americans are unhappy with their jobs. We've missed the human element in the equation. People aren't machines, and our educational system increasingly treates them as such. Ask someone who teaches in a public school and has to deal with the increasing pressures under No Child Left Behind. Our higher education system is following suit, and the whole setup is creating a dissonance with the fact that people are getting tired of being treated like profit-generating robots. It's my hope that our current economic shitstorm will remind us of concepts like a broad-based education that includes the humanities (you know, things like poetry) being good for a society and making us more productive because we aren't so goddamn miserable. More than that, though, we should ideally be reminded that the arts and humanities have intrinsic value beyond profit, and that all the profit in the world doesn't add up to human happiness.
I'll step down from my soap box now. Besides, my creative writing class will soon enter my classroom and light up my day. It's not all cause for despair. =)
@all - I'm truly sorry to have diverted the conversation into the realm of filthy lucre. I just love the poetry of value investing almost as much as I loves my Modernists. Truth!
That's a really nice thought, but unfortunately I think the current economic situation has had the opposite effect: now, more than ever, people are focusing on the practical (i.e. that which merits monetary rewards) rather than the prudential (i.e. what really makes me happy?). Economics works on principles of efficiency, which leaves no room for the mind to wander or remain aloof.
I didn't apply to UNCG, but I ended up applying to UNCW, which also notified in January last year. My other early notifiers are Kansas, Wyoming, and Penn State. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
I suppose time will tell. I like to think that disillusionment will cause people to ask better, deeper, questions than they tend to ask when everything is running smoothly. It's when the power goes out that we realize how much we rely on it.
Either way, we certainly live in interesting times that -- regardless of your perspective -- should yield interesting topics to write about.
Yeah, that does sound daunting. But think of is this way: most of the process for them is separating the chaff from the wheat, so to speak, so 100 or so more application actually yields only 1 or 2 more competitors. At the same time, it's kind of depressing because most of us are probably chaff.
There's a difference between being grateful and being immobile. I find flaw in the idea that we cannot criticize our system and build it for the betterment of our own people on the idea that this somehow makes us ungrateful.
***disclaimer: the following rant is not directed at anyone in particular.
I also find issue with the legitimacy of a MFA. As it has been said, many times, a MFA does not guarantee a job but hell, neither does an undergraduate degree. On some glossy philosophical level, we can go into the who's who of American that never attended college or even graduated.
You shouldn't go to graduate school for anything other than what you love. Some people are 200% driven to become a doctor, others are 200% committed to becoming a writer, both contribute to society in different ways and neither can do each other's job.
Is it a matter of money? A starving artist? Hell, doctors aren't making a nickel nowadays, not for the work and time they put in. What? Getting a law degree so I may become partner or that nickel and dime chump who gets some sort of Marcus and Mac rerun commercial during day time TV with some washed up VJ from MTV to be my spokesperson. Oh that sounds real great! Thank you, graduate school!
I love reading about the 1940s, when the idea of Advertising was some whack job idea and not as concrete as the blue collar factory worker and so on. Nowadays, you'll find more undergrads with Marketing degrees than you can shake a hypothetical stick at.
Or really, what is a MBA when you think of it? Most people cannot even buy their way into a graduate school with a half of decade plus under their belt. If they're ambitious, they could be a top level executive before any school even looks at them. Ask the fresh faced twenty something year old who went straight from undergrad to grad and MBA versus our season wine veteran.
Come on now, if being a grown up has taught me anything about the job market, it's that experience trumps fancy degrees. I should know, I have one, and what's the first comment out of every interviewers mouth?
"Oh this is all pretty but what about experience?" Graduate school is a luxury in itself. It's a gateway into the big boys club upper level.
I just believe we're programed to think that to get to 2.5 kids with a car and two chickens and every pot, there's this singular path that everyone must walk, and that simply isn't true.
Will every poet make an impact on society? uh...no, but I'm quite sure that not every lawyer, investment banker or doctor will make some impact on society either.
I guess my point is, a masters is what you make of it.
It's irritating to me that I am as nervous as I am. I really thought I would keep a cool head about all this. I had this whole zen approach of "Well, it will all work out the way it should..." So mature. Except I am anxious and not feeling the zen lately. I'm going to distract myself with cooking this afternoon and possibly crack a beer before 3 pm.
RE:UNCW -- It looks fantastic, and it's one of my top picks. But the funding is unclear to me.I wonder if that is why more folks didn't have it one their lists.
@ElizabethB - I'm CNF too. I tinkered with the idea of applying in poetry, but decided that writing a memoir took priority over everything else.
For my sample, I submitted three essays. The first two are childhood essays in slightly different styles and the third is a travel piece about a trip to Japan.
I guess I worry a little that the adcom won't take me as seriously because I'm only 22, but I hope my writing conveys some sense of maturity. I've always been old for my age, as they say. What did you submit for your sample?
I don't want children or chickens. I would, however, like a car with a cup holder. And my undergraduate degree has failed to provide this to me, despite my efforts and my willingness to sometimes wear pantyhose.
Has anyone else received the attachment from BGSU that starts with, "We are pleased to inform you," but then goes on to say, "that your application materials have been forwarded to Creative Writing for evaluation." Evil. Evil.
koru, What does it matter if someone comes from a "small, regional school?" What qualifies as such? What are you getting at here? MFA programs don't care where you got your undergrad. At all. And they aren't too picky about undergraduate grades.
I think a more realistic guess at who is paying for their MFA is: a) People who are independently wealthy b) People who are unaware of funding opportunities, who apply mostly to local schools or without doing much research c) People whose writing sample is not good enough (or the right fit) to get them into the most competitive programs, and are getting their MFA at one of the less talked about programs with no real funding of which to speak d) Other
Many good, well-known programs have funding problems. There are top-tier schools that can't fund all of their students. That's unfortunately just the way it is. The fully-funded programs are obviously more competitive, and not getting in doesn't mean the writer isn't "good enough" and has to settle for a school with less funding. When the odds are 2% admission, even some of the best writers have to spend more out of pocket to go somewhere with less funding if they really want to get an MFA. That's a personal choice, of course.
Alana, I'm afraid you misunderstood. In "c" I was not talking about ALL unfunded programs. I am well aware that many top schools, especially those in New York and California, are unable to offer much funding. This is why I specifically said these students may be attending "one of the less talked about programs." I didn't say that because one is going to one of these programs that they're not good either. But let's be honest: Many of these programs are less competitive by leaps and bounds than the top schools. They may receive only a few dozen applications. These schools are generally easier to get into, but that does not mean that the quality of work they produce or the experience they offer is any less. My D "other" section surely covers a large number of students as well who have experiences or reason that I didn't explain. Anybody who gets into and attends a competitive program without funding must either already have access to a lot of money, have a way to make a lot of money, or be willing to go into debt. I definitely can see where it would be worth it to some. I was VERY tempted by NYU and Columbia. But I try very hard to avoid debt of any kind and I had to pass on those schools. "C" was only one of my explanations and I certainly believe it applies in some cases.
RugbyToy, I saw them posted there as well. http://www.pw.org/speakeasy/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=227311;page=238;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;guest=5599594
If that link gives you any trouble, the conversation starts on page 238 of "The Waiting Game...Have you heard yet???"
Can anyone find a link to the cached page of Seth's Selectivity rankings (ie, the ones that had applicant pool size by school where such data was provided him). Just curious. I've been googling with no luck.
Ryan, I know there is a copyright issue with this info and I think Seth said it will be back up in February. I have in saved to my computer, but I'm pretty sure I'm not allowed to share it...?
I know we're all really worried about the process, now. But I really feel like these people who read the apps and select the students must know what they're doing -- not because I have particularly deep faith in teams of academics, buy because the results seem to be so good. People love their MFA programs. The feedback I've heard here, on Poets & Writers, at the MFA Chronicles, from friends who are in programs, has been consistently good. For the most part, people seem to feel that they've ended up at the place where they belong. So, I feel like those readers must be doing something right.
If you don't feel comfortable with doing it, don't. I was asking for a link bc google blogs are saved and even if something is "erased" you can usually veiw a cached image of what was there.
but my email is ryan.s.warren(at)gmail.com if you change your mind. (Insert elbow nudge.)
AB, in more of a convincing effort, I will say that I believe the contract is just between Seth and P&W. Soooooo, neither can control the fact that the article in question could exist on several folks' hdd... Just saying.
Yes, I think I did misunderstand what you said. I agree - I didn't apply to Columbia or Sarah Lawrence despite their high rankings in CNF because I'm not willing to go into $100,000 in debt for an MFA. I really wish they offered at least some funding to make it manageable. I applied to University of Arizona knowing their funding is limited, but hoping for a TAship so I can get a tuition break. However, if they don't give me any funding, as much as I loved the school when I visited, I could not attend.
I submitted two essays, both memoir. One is about religious impulses, the other about scattering my grandmother's ashes (or the preceding awkward moments).
You're having some second thoughts about the schools to which you applied? Which schools did you apply to, and what are your concerns?
Just to ensure that bad info doesn't get around (and because this has already been semi-publicly disseminated): UW-Madison got 629 applications this year in fiction. I know this for absolute fact. The "800+" number from P&W refers to where the English Department--as a whole--was at, at a particular point in the process. Ultimately the English Department (including M.A. and Ph.D. programs in English Literature, Rhet/Comp, and Applied Language & Linguistics, plus the MFA program) received 1,000+ applications. But the figure for UW's MFA (fiction-only admissions this year) is 629.
For contractual reasons, I'll put everything back up (including the most recent application count per school, from the data available) in 10 days -- on February 1st. Be well,
I don't really want to go into specifics about the concerns I have on this forum since it's very public. If you're curious, or just want to talk about CNF stuff, feel free to email me. My address is alana.saltz @ gmail.com
Cate, I hear ya too. I've read my writing sample differently so many times, hating or loving it or finding it completely unworthy of comment, depending on my mood, interest level and how long i haven't looked at it for. If I think like that, it's obviously even more arbitrary for its readers - I know I'm not absolutely incompetent, that's for sure, but otherwise it's impossible to know what any reader would make of it, so whether it's seen as fantastic or blah or awful is going to depend entirely on factors such as the ones you described. Which makes me feel despondent.
Still looking for that Columbia funding discussion, btw.
Also, Seth, thank you for the Wisconsin info. For some reason, knowing the number of applicants i'm up against gives me a cosy delusion of control to cling to!
Alana, good luck! I too have applied to several schools that only fund "some" of their students, and I'm not sure what I'll do if I find myself accepted but without funding. If MFA programs weren't funded, I would have had to stay in Ohio to keep the cost of tuition down. So if I personally am not offered funding (or at least SOME money), I'll try my damnedest to find a way, but I'm just not sure. I hope I don't have to worry about this!
Oh, yes, and Seth - thanks for clearing those numbers up! It's good to know the numbers haven't gone up TOO much, even though I didn't apply to Wisconsin. Good luck to all who did! Also, I look forward to February 1st! :)
I wanted to chime in as a lurker (but devoted reader) - this blog has been an invaluable resource to me and an empathetic lifeline.
I really wish everyone the best of luck as we face these incredible odds. I'm stuck at a sinking ship of a job (and an industry) and really need an MFA lifeline out of here!
Oh dear, I got one of those evil heart-attack-inducing letters today. It was from Brooklyn, and it began "We are please to inform you..." but then ended "... that we have forwarded your application materials to the department for consideration." Cruel!
I just got the Juniper Summer School thing from Amherst. Can't believe they bothered to send it to an address in England. But more to the point, I am SO glad it was brought up here before because i would have gone nuts otherwise! As it was, I was sweating and jumping around, saying 'an early rejection, an early rejection!' Alas (i mean, phew), 'twas just Juniper.
Yeah, I've received a few emails (forwarding my application to the department, congratulations your applications is complete, etc.) that got me anxious. At least people haven't started reporting calls from Alabama and other (possibly) early reporters. So my weekend will be just anxious instead of miserable. :D
Here and on P&W a few people have lamented the arbitrariness and/or subjectivity of the process. I definitely agree that not knowing exactly what the bar is (and thereby being able to judge how likely you are to clear it) can provoke a great deal of anxiety. One comforting thought, though, at least to me, is that any arbitrariness or subjectivity in the admissions process is just as likely to work in an applicant's favor as against her or him...assuming he or she doesn't believe the submitted sample is better than any of the other applicants so would definitely be accepted otherwise.
Frankish, yes, the subjectivity really makes me nervous. When I tell friends/family how nervous I am about getting in, they all reassure me and say things like, "How could you not get in, with your GPA and recommendations and etc. etc. etc." It reassures me for a moment until I remember that all of that stuff barely even matters. :/ I have faith in my writing sample and think it was my best work -- all I can do is hope the admissions committees will like it too.
Hi, everyone. I'm with you guys today -- feeling like this whole process is such a totally subjective crap shoot that I dare not even suppose I'd get in anywhere. The percentages just suck SO much. You can be good, you can be awesome -- and still not get in anywhere.
I need a distraction. Drinking -- sounds like a plan :) There are only 9 days left until the Barnes & Noble at which I work closes, and I keep saying that what we all need is a chemical dependency of some sort to help fill the days when we're no longer employed :)
Actually. There are two of you here who could help me out in the way of momentary distraction. WanderingTree and frankish, something about you two guys makes me want to read your writing samples. Are you up for a trade? I heard through the grapevine I should read WanderingTree's. And frankish, you keep describing yours as 'rough' and I want to see what you mean.
If either of you would like to satisfy this bored girl's curiosity and/or help me fill a few of these desperate minutes/hours from now till SOMEONE ANYONE on this blog hears something -- you can email me at laurenlipnicki at gmail dot com. Either of you up for a writing sample trade?
So, things have definitely become dire because I just spent some time looking at Seth's acceptance tracker thing and old calendars to figure out what day of the week different places tend to inform. I thought this was stupid and was just wasting time but it seems that Indiana University always calls on a Saturday. Interesting and unexpected!
OK, so I have held off offering to swap writing samples because- (1)If your sample is obviously better than my sample, I end up feeling terrible. (2)If I think my sample is way better, I'm filled with false hope. And then if I’m rejected I think “WTF, MINE WAS BETTER!” (3) If I think yours is great AND mine is great too...well then I think about how this whole process is so random and subjective...and the waiting game gets more agonizing.
BUT, my curiosity has gotten the better of me! I want to read other MFA app. writing samples.
WanderingTree, I especially want to read your sample.
If anyone wants to swap email me: cate.e.burton (at) gmail (dot) com
I also promise to publically praise you and your sample on this blog (even if I think your sample is crud) ...just kidding. I’m sure everyone’s sample is really very good. Blast! That brings me back to the subjectivity issue...I’m glad other people fret about it too!
Sh*t! Blast! Darn! These samples are REALLY GOOD. no joke. Now, I feel terrible about my sample! What was that about teaching English in foreign countries?
Cate, none of us REALLY knows what's going to get accepted and what isn't. There are so many crazy factors in the selection process that all you can do is keep writing and reading.
WanderingTree, I hear ya! If you don't mind repeating for the 1000th time, where did you apply? I thought your sample was excellent, though definitely the sort of story that needs to consider "fit," which as far as I can imagine has to be the only reason you didn't find a school last year. I'm very confident that you'll find one soon!
Ashley, I'm trying to be hopeful but with so many people applying you just never know. I told myself I wouldn't get "crazy" after I sent all my applications but that doesn't look like it's going to happen.
I applied to Illinois (one of the early notifiers - ahh!), WUSTL, Brown, Wisconsin-Madison, Notre Dame, Southern Illinois, Syracuse, Iowa, Texas-Austin, Indiana, ASU, PSU. Definitely different than last year. The only school I still applied to that I'm still uncertain of in terms of "fit" is Indiana.
WanderingTree, We're all going crazy; there's nothing we can do about it! We're hopeless. Your list of schools makes perfect sense to me. At least as far as those I'm familiar with. I have a few early notifiers and they scareeee me the most!
I'm reading the symbol by Dan Brown. I've read every single book he's written and plot wise, he's become stronger which each book, though I must say that Angels and Demons is his best work and one of the best Thrillers I read (this comes from someone who does not read thrillers a lot).
Writing wise, I'm a little stuck, I have a tendency to burn out on writers that I read religiously, which I probably shouldn't admit.
I just find his writing to be a little superficial at times. I like his smooth transitions and the way he interlaces character thought with prose, or maybe I'm jaded, but I swear that besides Robert Langdon, all of his characters are virtually palette swaps: Rich old man from a long of rich old men. Brilliant woman, only in her field, will sleep with Mr. Langdon. Exotic henchmen, with many deep seeded issues but never the head of whatever the hell is going on.
I'm having issues settling into it. I just keep rolling my eyes and waiting for the big bang that sets the ball rolling. Maybe I have ADD, I started three books at once...four books at once! The Lovely Bones, The Lost Symbol, Lolita and White Teeth.
I should really take the time to look over my posts before my thumb gets to tapping that shiny orange icon that says 'Publish Your Comment.' It's the publish part, I swear, it triggers a voracious instinct in my writers self. Publish? YES!! Edit? NOOOOO!
Looking at your schools--some of which I too have applied for various reasons-- I'm curious: what's this about "fit?" I haven't read your sample, but am I correct in assuming you're writing in some style or genre that you feel those schools are more inclined to appreciate? Is this "experimental?" The term freaks me out. What's considered experimental fiction nowadays? I remember the time when patchwork narratives were considered new and innovative...
I've been reading a lot of prized anthologies lately and though the stories in them are all vastly different and wonderful, I dont see any of them as "experimental." Can anyone recommend writers or works that are largely categorized as such?
Also, in my research for schools, I didn't come across any faculty that show any clear preference for one kind of storytelling. Are there such schools? I didn't apply to Brown but apparently they're the "experimental" example? What are others?
4maivalentine, I've certainly never read "The Lost Symbol," but I braved my way through half of "The Da Vinchi Code" and I must say it was one of the worst books I have ever read. Surely there were good qualities, but to me it was overhyped garbage and not even good for genre writing. I agree with your sentiment that his writing is superficial, though I am without any of the praise that your provide.
I don't normally like to speak ill of writers, but I think that the real reason I dislike him so much is because there was so much hype about him a few years ago. I just don't get it.
Ok, after all that pointless negativity: I must add that Lolita is one of my favorite novels and that I quite enjoyed "The Lovely Bones" when I read it a few years ago. How is "White Teeth?" I have heard good things.
I couldn't enjoy the lovely bones, though I think it's a good concept. It was just overly sentimental for me. And then the writing, at a sentence-to-sentence level, wasn't enjoyable.
I agree with you, really. My friend told me that The Louvre museum recently began to offer the Da Vinci Code tours? Shoot me in the head.
I guess I was in some way asking if my opinion of Dan Brown has changed so drastically because I'm a more mature writer or am simply burned out?
I'm enjoying White Teeth. I love Zadie Smith. On Beauty was great, and her style is so fresh and crisp. When I read her, I can practically smell the cigarettes (even though I abhor smoking) and hear the efficient clicking of type writers. She just has this way of jettisoning you back in time, and you trust her. It's a wonderful feeling to trust the writer. She's the main reason that I have my heart set on NYU (I know, writers don't make the best professors, you'll always be disappointed when you meet your hero, etc.) I can't help it!
*momentary juvenile breakdown*
OMG, I really, really, really, REALLY want to get into Cornell or NYU. Cornell AND NYU. I don't care if I'm rejected from everywhere else! Please, please, please, pleeeeeaaaassssse!!
My superstitious self says that I jinxed it.
ANYWAY, my friend 'The Lovely Bones,' years ago, and she told me to read it and I never got around till now. Is it just me being a snob, or does everybody else hate to read a book after Hollywood bastardizes...I mean 'honors' it with a movie? I feel like some sort of consumer lemming.
Lolita, Lolita, Lolita. I feel like anyone who has the nerve to call themselves a writer has no choice but to read it. I'm excited though. :) Wow, that's dorky, right? To be very excited to start a book? It's that butterflies in the stomach excitement too.
i LOVED white teeth. actually, i'm just a big zadie smith fan in general and almost threw my macbook across the room when i realized she'll be teaching at NYU this year and i didn't apply. anyhow, i would recommend giving it a read and i may just pick it up again myself since it's been a few years.
These writing samples are really good. I hope the writers here are better than the average applicants...otherwise, it's on to Plan B. :D
On Dan Brown, he's good a creating suspense, but his books aren't really for me. For that kind of thing, I thought Silence of the Lambs was a great read. Also enjoyed The Club Dumas and Perfume. Perfect reading if you're on a long plane trip.
4maivalentine, I'm not so critical of film adaptations as you are, though I was a film student in undergrad and have a weak spot for cinema. Plenty of great books get turned into crummy movies, but there are some winners. I did see The Lovely Bones this week, and I thought the film was decent, though far from perfect. It had been a while since I read the book, so I didn't feel slighted.
okay okay, I'll bite. Does anyone want to exchange writing samples with me? I was avoiding it because I have the same fear as Cate but you guys are making me so curious with your discussions about it!
Anyway, my email's jepaslay@gmail.com if anyone's interested.
I wasn't really a fan of The Lovely Bones (the book or the movie). I felt the same way about the Time Traveler's Wife although the movie adaptation of that book was even worse. Both great concepts, but I didn't fall in love with the writing. I'm also not a fan of sentimental family/lover/friend stuff.
Dolores,
Dolores, I think the whole "fit" thing is tricky because you don't know who is going to read your sample. And the person you do want reading your story might be looking for other things entirely. You just don't know. I don't think ANY professor would look at a story and say, "Hmm, this isn't wacky enough or this isn't real/traditional enough. I think I'll say no. YOU SHALL NOT PASS" Okay, I'm done. But with that said, I tried to find some direction during the application process. I read the work of faculty and of recent alumni, and I paid attention to what kinds of journals they publish in (i.e. a Ninth Letter or a Fairy Tale Review pub seemed more promising to me than say something like The Hudson Review). I also looked in the archives of P&W to get some insider info from current and former students about what they felt their programs were all about. Using that information, I applied to places that I felt were more open to different aesthetics.
Experimental doesn't really mean anything imo. Some stories just take advantage of certain literary devices and artistic freedoms more than others (and I guess a few prominent Brown grads take advantage of artistic license at times - Ben Marcus and Shelley Jackson to name a couple). Also, the idea of what is or isn't experimental or fashionable changes over time as generations get older. There are also discrepancies between the literature of different cultures/nations (i.e. magical realism being more of a staple of literature south of the equator).
I just saw The Shipping News again. Kevin Spacey and Judi Dench are in it. I thought this movie was really well done and just great to look at. Okay, I said I didn't like sentimental crap, but maybe I'll make an exception here.
Anyone see John Krasinski's adaptation of DFW's Brief Interviews with Hideous Men? Thoughts? I thought it FAILED. And as likable as Krasinski's character is in The Office, I couldn't help but feel like this guy is probably a bit of a turd when I was watching this movie.
I love White Teeth! Years later, I'm still so in love with Magid and Millat, I feel like Irie.
Also, Zadie is a wonderful teacher! Warm, engaged, full of insight and eager to share it. If you want to know what she's like as an academic you should read her book of essays, Changing my Mind. She taught at Columbia last Spring and although I didn't take her class -- only the MFA students were allowed to take it and, anyway, it was overfull from the first day of registration -- but I took Nick's (Zadie's husband's) Irish poets class and he was so good, I can confidently say that he will forever be one of my favorite teachers! I already know that I'm going to spend the rest of my life revisiting the work we read in his seminar. God, it was so beautiful! Everybody knows Yeats and Seamus Heaney and Paul Muldoon, but I was introduced to two amazing poets that I'm sure I would otherwise have missed: Derek Mahon and Louis MacNeice. I'm changed after that experience.
And at the end of the semester, Nick and Zadie invited us over to the cute little place where they were living then, for wine and chitchat. And they both took the time to talk individually with us about our writing and our hopes for the future. I thought that was really good, engaged teaching. But it wasn't just at the end, I would say they were both really involved with all of us throughout the semester.
WanderingTree, I have less trouble with the sentimental. If it's cheesy or melodramatic, I can do without it. But there needs to be emotion in fiction for me to connect to it.
Films I love that are based off of books: Trainspotting, Girl Interrupted, Of Mice and Men, High Fidelity, No Country for Old Men, The Shawshank Redemption, Into the Wild, Breakfast at Tiffany's... I'm sure there are more.
Also, I don't know how in touch Zadie's been with her students, but Nick has been supporting me throughout this application process -- despite changing continents, doing a book tour and having a baby, he still managed to respond quickly every time I needed something from him. I have such mad love for them both!
wow! how nice to hear that one of your favorite authors is also a great teacher and all-around good person. and it really does make me regret not applying to NYU. i suppose i always have the chance of rejection and could apply next year. :)
Trilbe, major jealousy!! I would probably explode from excitement if I ever got the chance to hang out with Zadie Smith at her home.
I thought about applying to NYU, but was dissuaded after I talked to one of my professors -- he knows one of the only incoming MFA students who got substantial funding at NYU last year, and that guy apparently runs an important literary magazine in London and has published a ton of stuff. I said, oh well, I cannot possibly compete with that.
402 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 400 of 402 Newer› Newest»ha - apparently, i wasn't as non-stressed as i said. i ended up emailing and she got right back to me with a kind e-mail, confirming my materials were received in december and my file is complete. now TRULY not stressing. thanks for the info, everyone.
@salt
While I don't feel I had anyone that was *too harsh* I do feel that I had one professor who didn't balance their comments very well. What I mean is that while he always had helpful critical comments, he never said anything was ever working well in anyone's piece. While I don't want someone telling me I'm wonderful all the time, I do find it just as helpful to hear "I like this part--it works for me" just as I find it helpful to hear "not sure this image is the strongest choice" or whatever it is. I dunno, its all a balance.
If I had to pick, I'd rather somebody rip something apart and give me all the negative than tell me I'm doing a super job. I mean, I know what I'm doing right. I need help with what I'm doing wrong (if I knew what I was doing wrong, I wouldn't be doing it).
A balance would certainly be best, but I've never really gotten that.
Has anyone ever taken a workshop in which peer comments have been helpful? In the one workshop I took, almost everyone in the class hated my writing with the exception of the instructor, who liked it a lot. What I got most of out the experience was his feedback saying, "work on this one more, this isn't your best work." I think my peers didn't like it cause it was too quirky or something, which is exactly what I'm banking on not happening at an MFA program...
@Brandi Wells
While I think I would choose that as well, I have had profs that had more balance (or peers) and as someone who regularly rips apart my own work without any help from others (haha), I find it really helpful to know what is worth keeping. Sometimes though you can get that from just new drafts.
@coughdrop
You're probably right. Sometimes I get really attached to a certain section, line or part of a story. It doesn't mean it's good because I like it.
I've always though positive feedback was offered to cushion the negative. Because I've certainly had people get offended when I offer a critique.
frankish,
i think that's a good point. It's likely that critiques will become tougher as one moves on to higher and higher education. This makes sense. Not everyone in an undergraduate workshop is thinking about making writing a serious part of their life so they probably don't need or even want an honest critique.
@Amy
I haven't checked receipt of materials either. And probably won't.
Only applied to a few programs though... so in the interests of consistency, my post-application actions are also colored by a certain fatalism :-D
Personally, I think the main difference is between criticism and constructive criticism. I personally have a problem with someone saying something like "I hated this piece". Not only does that make me feel like crap, it doesn't help me. Now that same person could say, "I felt like the dialogue was stale and the character was unbelievable and here are some examples." I find the second comment, while harsh, to be miles above the first and honestly, I am more likely to listen to that. If any professor is just going to tell me something sucks without stating a reason, I'm going to feel like they are just being unnecessarily mean and unhelpful.
Yes, it'd be worthless without an explanation of why. No point in pointing anything out if you can't explain yourself.
I'm trying to get better at pinpointing exactly what it is I don't like about a story and why. I've been reading submissions for a journal and I'm hoping this is helping to hone those skills.
I think the basic function of criticism in general is to find out whether what you are doing works or not. "This sucks," though harsh, is the simplest and sometimes the best way to answer that question. Being a poet, it's not all that offensive when you get a comment like that though you just think, "Ok, hey, thanks, I was trying something new there, but give me an hour and I'll have a new one for you." With fiction, I could see that being much more irksome. Working on a story for a month only to have a professor say that... would be hell. I still think it would be helpful though.
Sorry...screwed up and deleted my post. :P
If you don't mind my asking, what workshops were you folks taking? My experience has been a bit different. Of course, my writing might not have been as good either. :D
In high school, I did a little bit of creative writing, and the teachers were very encouraging and not too critical (though none of them wished they wrote like me, of that I'm sure), but I can see where they were coming from with such young students. If they hadn't been as encouraging I probably wouldn't have applied for any creative writing classes in college, where I originally planned to major in math.
Freshman year of college I lucked out and was able to take a fiction craft seminar instead of the required composition course. Marjorie Sandor was the instructor (this was a long time ago), and she was great. I also took a couple of workshops with Susan Dodd later on, who was also fantastic. Both of them were encouraging but also brought up some issues with my work. At the time I was either too young or too stupid to understand the criticism fully, but, years later, I realize they were right on the money. Admittedly, they could have been harsher or more brutally honest, but then I might not have continued on with creative writing. It's a tough balance to strike. I think they handled it correctly for a student who was obviously a beginner.
Once I got to graduate school (did an MA creative writing at Hollins) the gloves were off. All of the professors there were kind but forthright with their criticism. I remember in one workshop, the teacher read my poem and said, "This sucks, I'm really disappointed." At the time I was pissed off, but reading the piece today it is the single worst thing I ever wrote. She was doing me a favor.
Anyway, unless you are very fortunate to work with someone exceptional early on, I think the further along the educational curve you are the more fully honest and brutal (and helpful, but only if you're a developed enough writer to handle it) the criticism becomes.
With respect to balanced criticism, if my work is being reviewed I generally don't care about any ego stroking and just want to know what doesn't work for readers. As somebody giving criticism, I always try to balance what I thought worked well and what didn't work for me. It's hard to do so with tact sometimes, but the single most valuable input a reader can give is to let the writer know when he or she got bored (at least in my opinion). I have to read the work in workshop, but if I got bored outside of academia, I'd probably just not read any further.
Cheers!
The issue is further complicated by balancing the needs of the audience vs. artistic integrity. If the audience hates it, it might be because they didn't get it. And if they didn't get it, is that a failing on the part of the reader or the writer?
Spam question...
Anyone else getting grad school spam lately?
They address me by my (never used) first name, so it's not some random internet thing. But the programs are all a bit off-target. Can't figure out if one of the schools is selling its list or if the GRE people ignored the 'do not whore my infos' checkbox.
Any insight? (Not like I'm going to take the schools to task*)
*before April
re: the cuse
I sent my stuff in mid-nov and didn't get any confirmation. I emailed Terri Zollo and she confirmed that I was all set a few wks later. Maybe they didn't send confirmation to everybody. It seems like quite a lot of people never heard back. Although I just got my WUSTL confirmation and I sent that out in early Nov.
@pogrator
No spam here. A few of the schools I applied to have been pretty aggressive about sending information along (guide to the city, guide to student housing, etc.), but I like it. It's not an acceptance, but at least it's not a rejection. :D
I checked the don't bother me box on the GRE, too. Maybe mine was just too recent (took it at end of December).
Cheers!
re: grad school spam
i naively checked the 'yes contact me about my chosen field' box on the gres, and blame most spam on that. at first it caused me some doubt (maybe i should've considered notre dame's program, as these two e-mails have told me), but now they're just a nuisance as my heart skips a beat every time i see the letters 'mfa' in the subject of an email.
John,
I get what you're saying but I just wanted to point out that poems aren't written that fast. An hour? Maybe for a few people. Poems take many hours, maybe days, and revising may take several months. The last poem I wrote took me three months to write (not including time revising).
re: teachers and criticism
Salt -
Pretty much the same experience as you and Brandi. A lot of teachers and peers telling me I was special, that it was only a matter of time before I would be "discovered", calling my stories brilliant etc. I don't even really care about the critiques that some people give me anymore. At first they were more balanced, but after them telling me "this is great, oh this is really brilliant etc." I'm not really getting anything that I can use.
Brandi/coughdrop/salt etc. -
I had a sculpture professor that was notorious for being too harsh on his students. And then one day, the students confronted him about it. He broke into tears and ran off, convinced all of his students hated him. The next semester he loved everyones work and simply nodded when he wanted to say something else. I think finding a balanced professor can be tough but not impossible. Yes, a lot of these people are teaching as a means to an end but some of them might actually like teaching and really excel at it. Personally, whenever I review other people's work, I find that I become better at reviewing my own because I'm able to articulate what's wrong with another person's story and then realize I may be doing the same thing. My rule is that I have to find one compliment for every two constructive things I say. Telling someone what works is just as important as telling them what doesn't.
But balance is also hard to find because sometimes the people we connect with at first eventually become too close to your work and then they can't see past it. Hmm . . .
Plan B: Move to a small town in Iowa to take care of my grandfather. He was recently diagnosed with dementia, is living with his sister who he can't stand, and is giving her all kinds of grief. If I move there, I'll just get a cafe job (and tutor college/high school English) and try this application process for the third time.
Plan C: ESL teaching in Korea or China. I have some friends who did that and I have some leads on reputable places.
Plan D: In the words of Lewis Black "bottle of wine, bathtub, and some razor blades".
Salt,
I get what you are saying too. At the same time, unless you are writing a 100 line poem, most poems are between 20-30 (that are published in a journal). To write a first draft of a poem that length shouldn't take all that long, the reason being that you find your conceit and then you drive it home. What's more, I think that's a good thing. I'm not advocating a Ginsbergian mantra such as "first thought, best thought," but I think most of these programs have a certain zen-aesthetics that if not all that different (i.e. a poem is a momentary thing). So if you are super-attentive to craft, you better at least do it in a Yeatsian fashion a la "a line may take us an hour maybe..." Not saying this makes poetry better or worse--it is what it is--I'm just saying that it is that.
Oh, and someone was questioning Uni San Francisco's funding earlier? I have no idea if things have changed, but last year I know two people that were given $10,000 entrance scholarships to that program.
I find it fascinating that so many people are or are considering teaching abroad. I'll have to research that.
Plan B: Keep my day job in finance
Plan C: Quit said day job and go walk the Camino de Santiago across Northern Spain
@salt-- Re: Harshness of Profs, because I've had a decidedly different experience in undergrad. For me, what to expect in workshop was apparent when I learned the names of my instructors-- it was a very individual thing, they all taught differently, but certainly no exclusive patting-on-the-back.
My intro workshop was all "critique", mixes of constructive criticism and some slight pointing out of "parts that worked". It was taught by an adjunct who I love dearly to this day.
My poetry workshop was with a lovely Southern gentleman (when he read poetry with that understated twang, girls fainted ;) ) who turned every piece of criticism into the sweetest, most helpful collection of words he could come up with. He might be telling you the poem sucked, but in a way that encouraged you to go back and rewrite.
My fiction workshops were taught by the notorious curmudgeon of the faculty. He disliked writing that did not resemble his own, put more emphasis on how you looked and acted during class than what you said, and had a list of "rules concerning what can never appear in a story" (included words such as swig, swirl, and so forth that were never to appear in our stories, as well as story-writing musts such as: if a female character is doing a "male job" [in this case, police], it's because of a major failure in the men of her town/city. You must explain this failure). He single-handedly quartered the population of Creative Writing majors (someone had to do it, I suppose...) with his withering "critiques".
Let's just say, the poet wrote my letter of recommendation, even though I'm a fiction writer. He wrote me a dern good one, too.
Sorry about the rant. Just wanted to say not everyone's unergrad workshops were encouraging.
by unergrad, I of course mean undergrad.
Ahhhh today I received an e-mail from Texas State that said "CONGRATULATIONS... on your decision to apply to the Texas State - San Marcos graduate school." I never really believed it was an acceptance because it's too early (their deadline was 5 days ago!) but the wording could have easily caused me to have a heart attack.
Ashley, I got one of those from UMass Amherst the other day. I about pissed myself.
re: Critique
In the interest of getting as many eyeballs as my stories as possible before sending them off with my app, I had my youngest brother read them. That was a mistake because he's not a "reader" by any stretch of the imagination and had the gall to label one of my stories as "chick lit." I about e-tore his head off.
... But it did make me think about whether it was lit for baby chickens. (It's not, I swear!)
A lot of you guys have scored teaching jobs. Mind walking a hopeless wanderer through it? Especially the overseas opportunities. Which companies have you used?
For anyone who applied to University of British Columbia, I found an MFA thesis writing blog of a student who is currently in the program. I didn't apply there but just thought I'd share:
http://www.mountainofwords.com/
OK, so I just got the umass Juniper Summer Writing Institute brochure in the mail. I knew it was coming because I someone else on this blog had mentioned receiving it. (Still my brain couldn’t stop my heart from pounding as I opened it!)
Here is my question - Did everyone receive this brochure? It feels like a rejection. Why would they send a summer brochure to admitted MFA students? It feels like a “thanks for playing.” Sorry the MFA thing didn’t work out...but come to our summer program. I know this isn’t rational. I'm being ridiculous! I’m sure all the MFA applicants are automatically added to the Juniper mailing list. But still...
Also, does this mean that a bunch of past Juniper summer writing students have an "in" to the MFA program? Are they all being accepted right now!?!
Yikes. I need a new hobby. Can you tell umass is my first choice?
@Cate:
I can't tell you if everyone got the Juniper mailing thing, but I can tell you that I did. I'm pretty sure it just goes to everyone. They can't have their final list yet, right?!
They are one of my top choices, too!
For anyone that looks at that UBC Creative Writing MFA Thesis blog, it's actually from a student in the low-res program. Just a heads up.
Hi, I'm a longtime "lurker" (which sounds so evil, but it's only because I'm shy and don't feel that I have anything new worth saying). But now I have a question, so I'm making myself known (and incidentally, this is my first post on any blog whatsoever).
The question: I received an e-mail today from Columbia stating that they must receive the FAFSA by Feb. 15. My employer's always slow in getting the W-2's out, so I'm sure I won't get mine until the W-2 deadline (Feb. 1), and then I've got to file 2009 taxes before I can fill out the FAFSA. So, does anyone know if I should go ahead and fill out the FAFSA with 2008 information, or should I wait and rush at the last minute so that I can include 2009 info?
Columbia's one of my top choices, but I know for a fact that I can't possibly go there if I don't get some significant aid, so it's important that I fill out the FAFSA. Any advice?
(Just when I thought all the crunch with apps was over....)
It's been truly wonderful to read the posts and feel less alone in this agonizing process. I, too, was waiting for an Alabama call with several of you this week and was relieved that I wasn't the only neurotic person foolishly thinking they'd be consistent with last year's notification schedule.
OK, sorry for the long post. But I'm happy to have finally come out of hiding to join the rest of you. You're a great group, and this blog has helped calm (and heighten, at times) my anxieties!
4mai,
If you're doing something overseas, I suggest going with a company/program that is affiliated with an embassy/consulate. These gigs usually pay a lot more and there's at least some assurance that you won't be screwed over by a corrupt manager that regards you as "the foreign problem" (it happens) (Korea has some really sweet deals tied to the dept. of education). Also, some TEFL/TESL certificate programs help place you with a job. A friend of mine did a program in Prague and when she was finished with her training, she was placed with a job. In Japan I'd say Berlitz and ECC are the best large companies but there are also many smaller schools that give you a lot more freedom to teach at universities, corporations, tailor your own lessons etc. A couple of my friends that have decided to stay in Japan, China, Peru etc. are now working directly for the Board of education (once you make some connections and can speak the native language, doors will open up). If you already have a teaching certificate (i.e. credentialed to teach high school or already have a masters or PHD), there are some very well-paying gigs in the United Arab Emirates.
@phillywriter,
I got the same email and plan to fill out the forms using my 2008 tax return. Some years I have income reported via K-1 that I don't get until August. :/
Anyway, if I understand correctly, applying with 2008 return data and then updating as soon as you have a 2009 return done is sufficient to keep you in the running for financial aid.
Of course, I'm no expert. You might want to call Columbia's financial aid office and get the skinny.
Good luck!
@phillywriter
Based on my prior FAFSA experience, you should *definitely* fill it out with your best guesstimate--ASAP.
It's ok if your estimate later turns out to a little off--you're allowed to re-do your information once you have your 2009 taxes. Plus, the FAFSA isn't super precise anyway. They seem to do EFCs in increments of a thousand dollars, perhaps more.
Of course, I've never done the FAFSA for an MFA before, but I've done it for college and law school, and my Jan. 1 guesstimate was always fine for the first go-round. The main thing to worry about is speed (rather than accuracy)--lots of financial aid money is first come first serve, so you've got to send your info in as early in the year as possible.
Phillywriter,
Once you get your W-2 for 2009, you should be able to make some estimates on your taxes and be able to fill out the FAFSA forms. You needn't be exact. Also, if your pay is the same/similar as 2008 then you should be able to base your estimates off that as well.
i may have done it wrong, but when i filled out the fafsa, it just asked for information straight from my W-2, so i assumed my taxes didn't need to be filed to provide the correct information.
I think you're right beedeecee, but I don't really remember right now.
well, it seemed too easy and numbers are not my forte, so i could very well be wrong. or, as my co-worker says in between making siren noises, "RED ALERT! JOURNALIST DOING MATH!"
ahem.
Thanks, all.
FYI: Columbia also requires a "Need Access" application by February 15, which costs an additional $28 and seems to involve more detailed info than the FAFSA. According to the "Need Access" website, Columbia appears to be the only Writing MFA that requires this form (most of the other programs are schools of law or medicine). Urgh. I can't believe how expensive applying to Columbia has turned out to be, and I feel so foolish, because even if I get in I likely can't afford to go there.
But I also have some fully-funded programs on my list, so it's not as if I've put all my eggs in the Columbia basket. It just feels ridiculous that I'm shelling out even more money for an application that's probably pointless.
I'm so afraid of not getting in anywhere - but perhaps even worse would be to get admitted only to programs I couldn't afford to attend!
OK, this blogging stuff can be fun :) It's nice to have a place to vent!
phillywriter, I hear you! I didn't apply to Columbia, but I did end up applying to a number of schools that only offer funding to some schools. Montana, Kansas, UNCW, Texas State, possibly Georgia College & State University, Florida Atlantic, Southern Illinois. I worry about what i will do if I'm only accepted somewhere without funding. I'm not sure yet what I would do. I would want to attend but I might have to wait and reapply. I think it would depend on the cost. I'd be willing to take out some loans but I don't want to end up in huge debt... Good luck! Hopefully you (or WE, or everybody who posts here) can get funded somewhere and not have to worry about it!
Hi, everyone. Thanks for being my awesome distraction lately :) I applied to Ohio State, which means I'll be hearing (or not) from that one school on my list, in a week or so. Yikes. Funny how quiet my cell phone looks.
Anyway, out of total perpetually poverty-stricken curiosity: To those applying to schools that don't fund, how will you pay for your MFA? Loans for tuition plus a full-time job for food/rent? Or something else I don't know about?
Trust funds right? ;)
If you're looking to teach in Japan, I recommend the JET Program. It has a great support system, you get paid a really decent wage, and the workload isn't overwhelming.
http://www.jetprogramme.org/
The application process is kind of long, but I think it's worth it. I enjoyed my three years teaching. I'm doing translation work in Tokyo now.
I second the JET programme in Japan - I had a friend who did that programme for two years then spent the third year teaching independently in Tokyo. I visited him when he was there and he absolutely loved everything about his time there - I could see why. Very appealing for Japanophiles. He's also got a shitload of writing material from it; I'm pretty jealous.
I have planned to teach abroad (Taiwan) though Reach to Teach (www.reachtoteachrecruiting.com). I've heard good things about them. They also place teachers in South Korea and China. I still plan to go through them in I get all rejections. Otherwise I will plan on going after I complete my MFA, unless I end up with a lucrative offer straight away. I've wanted to teach abroad for years, so I still plan to do it some day. I think this is a great plan B for anybody who is in a flexible position who wants teaching experience and cultural exchange.
http://brownmfa.tumblr.com/
Danielle and Cate,
I have received nothing from UMASS.
: / !
@ namepending.
Thanks--that's an hilarious blog. Love the book reviews. Though I find it unsettling that my parents have all those same books in their basement.
Morgan,
I’m sure you will. ...either that or you’re still in the running, and Danielle and I got the consolation prize. =)
oh no, my stomach just dropped at the mere thought of rejection.
I imagine the worst part about getting rejected is seeing people post their acceptances in FEBRUARY and having to come to terms with the fact that my rejection is coming via snail mail in APRIL!
Danielle and Morgan, are you poetry or fiction?
hey POETS-- i need some help. i have a super talented poet friend who, for various sad family reasons, didn't send out her mfa apps. i'm trying to convince her it's not too late. she's down in the dumps and i'm trying to GALVANIZE her into ACTION!
does anyone know which poetry programs are still accepting applications-- like with feb 1 (or later) deadlines??
and preferably ones with generous funding packages??
any leads would be incredible. thank you so much.
all the best to everyone and really hope the calls come flooding in soon!
oh, and to add one more thing- we also need to find programs that don't require the GRE.
ok, thanks again. seriously. you're being enveloped in good karma.
I'm poetry. You?
@lulling ....
a few places your friend might look at with still active deadlines:
Boston U (1 Mar)
UNLV (15 Feb)
Ole Miss (1 Feb)
and if they're interested in Naropa, it might not hurt to call the program. Their deadline is 15 Jan, but last year they were still taking apps after the deadline. It's a bit of a unique program, so the friend might want to research their contemplative education first to see if it's up their alley.
Those are the programs I know of with applications still open. There may be others.
I'm not sure which programs require GRE scores, but I think the following also have Feb 1 or later deadlines:
Bowling Green
Old Dominion
San Diego State
VCU
And I think McNeese has a rolling admissions policy, not sure.
Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Cheers!
Morgan, I'm fiction.
@frankish + @koru
thanks you guys! really appreciate it. i love this blog forum support jungle out here.
Wichita State is the only school I know of that is still taking applications that goes not require the GRE.
However, I would suggest that your friend not just apply to schools because it's too late to apply to others... Rushing to apply isn't ideal. Waiting until next year might be a better idea. If she can find a few schools that she would really want to attend, she should apply, but don't encourage her to end up somewhere that's not right for her just because it is available.
Is anyone else having second thoughts about programs they applied to?
@ashley brooke... i hear what you're saying, and i'd tend to agree, since from my own experience this app season it was SO MUCH WORK. but...well....it's complicated. she has her portfolio together etc etc but her family disapproves of the mfa, she got really down about it, and i'm now i'm trying to be a life coach of sorts, rousing her from the depths. but now it requires reformulating the game plan. but i don't want to see her go thru another year of cocktail waitressing at a divey pool bar making $2.15 an hour. so depressing...
@alana, yep i don't know if i'm having second thoughts as much as third thoughts, like shit, should i apply to more schools!? so i'm debating adding Eastern Washington to the list. my poor recommenders....
i remember we applied to the same schools. do you not like those choices anymore?
@ashley brooke- thanks for the wichita state rec!
@Lauren,
Regarding your question about non-funded MFAs--I'm applying to only low-res programs. I few programs have some merit/need-based scholarships, but not much over 1k. I've been out of school for a few years now, but I work full time and have been saving up, so I know I won't have to go into debt at this point. And there's that little something called the *cough*GIbill*cough* Err, you didn't see that. (ducks behind table) (It comes with lots of story fodder)
@luling
Another option might be to look for programs that have Spring admissions (there are some...I'll see if I can dig some up in awhile), that way she only has to wait a year to start school instead of a year and a half.
luling,
Well, I definitely wish her (and you) luck. If she only ends up applying to a few places, make sure that she doesn't completely give up if she doesn't give in this time! It's pretty late but not impossible.
Yeah, Texas State has spring admissions, but I don't think you can apply for the (limited) funding until the fall.
@luling
Okay, luling...I am what is know as, well...a loser. So, I decided to figure out (using the handy dandy guide on Poets & Writers) which schools are still a possibility for your friend. You'll have to weed through and see which are a financial possibility and which are in locations she'd like. I did this REALLY quickly and may have messed up on a couple, but here goes.
Poetry programs, No GRE, still active deadlines:
Adelphi University (Feb 1)
American University (Feb 1)
Butler University (Mar 15)
CSU Fresno (Feb 19)
CSU Long Beach (Feb 15)
Hamline University (March 1)
Minnesota State, Mankato (Feb 1)
Minnesota State, Moorhead (March 1)
New Mexico State (Feb 1)
Northern Michigan (Feb 1)
Otis (Feb 15)
Queens College (Feb 15)
Roosevelt University (Feb 1)
San Jose State (Feb 1)
Southern Connecticut State University (March 1)
University of Baltimore (Feb 1)
UC, Riverside (Feb 1)
University of Idaho (Feb 1)
University of Missouri, St. Louis (Feb 15)
University of San Francisco (Feb 1)
Emily,
That was really sweet of you to do that! The karma will come back to you with acceptances.
@emily.... WOW. you are another saint hovering in the midst of mfa madness. T H A N K Y O U ! i should've checked out the PW guide, i haven't used that resource enough; i am compelled to say thanks in every language i can think of::: gracias, merci grazie terima kasih, bayardlha (spelled wrong, mongolian), xie xie, m'goy, ok i think you get the picture= lots of gratitude.
and also everyone else's advice and school suggestions, etc. thanks for being so helpful.
I think UNO's program takes acceptances until 2/1. And I thought Queens was until 3/1. Might be mistaken, though.
@philly and any other columbia university applicants -
i looked up that Need Access thing - it's all law schools etc! i think it's outrageous that columbia is the only arts school that wants it.
my question is - is it mandatory? the only shot at aid? it's crazy that they want more on top of their exorbitant app fee.
thanks daniel! will check it out
Good morning, fellow applicants. This is my first post, though I've been enjoying the past few mailbag's worth of discussion for several weeks. What a vibrant community you've created, albeit instigated in part by individual neuroses.
After tinkering with my poems until Thanksgiving, I decided to give up and apply in CNF. I wrote my manuscript last month, picked out eleven schools, labored over SOPs. Now, having completed eight applications, I've got time to really check out faculty work, their teaching philosophies, etc (totally backwards, I know). From what I've read so far, each prof has a wildly different approach to nonfiction: memoir, personal journalism, personal essay, lyric essay, etc.
If there's any CNF stragglers out there, I'm curious: what did you submit for your writing sample? Memoir, portraits, more journalistic stuff? If anyone wants to swap, I'm at:
bohnhor2 at msu dot edu.
I'm afraid my essays are going to come off as incoherent spams of self-wonderment. "Who's this 24- year-old snot who thinks she has life all figured out?" I can see the adcoms now, circled around a big oak table, reading my platitudes aloud to each other and laughing so hard they nearly tip over in their wheelie chairs. I'm sorry, adcoms, for any sustained injury my laughable prose have caused you.
How demoralizing graduate school already is!
Hope the spirits are high today, writers.
Cate-
I'm poetry!
ElizabethB,
i'm CNF too. i submitted two essays, but i'm afraid one of them doesn't even qualify as an essay. it's very vignetty.. like "meditations" from places i had traveled. and the other is a personal essay, a love story (which could be gag-worthy, i really don't know). so that's what i sent, though i'm really not so confident about them. oh well. i'd be happy to swap with you though!
anybody else that wants to swap CNF samples, feel free to send them and i'll do the same. we can pass the time reading each other's essays that one day will be optioned for movie rights and garner us lots of awards and book deals and well... anyway, i'm luling (dot) osofsky (at) gmail.com
i feel compelled to thank everyone again for their help with my friend's poetry list! emily, if you come to SF, ima buy you a drink.
@SeeMoreGlass:
Columbia says the $28 Need Access thing is absolutely required if you want to be considered for any funding from Columbia. Ridiculous, as I said in my earlier post :(
But I've taken it this far, so I might as well plunk another $28 down on a school I probably won't get into and almost definitely can't afford even if I do....
@wendybird,
Thanks for your reply. Nobody else seems to want to discuss how it is they can manage to attend non-funded programs.
I'm so totally in awe of anybody who's saved up money to attend school -- and in this economy! That's awesome. And we won't mention the (*cough*) other thing :)-- though it is something to be proud of, if you ask me :)
Regarding non-funded programs:
I can't attend a non-funded program without serious loans. I have very little savings and am still paying off student loans from undergrad and my husband's student loans from an MFA in painting. (Incidentally, we writers are actually lucky; there are virtually no funded MFA programs in the visual arts.)
I applied mostly to fully funded programs, with only a couple exceptions (such as Columbia) for programs that are really, really good. In which case I'm pretty much hoping for a funding miracle.
There's little discussion of how to pay for school because very few people who frequent this blog intend to pay for school.
I'd love to see some "Before Seth" and "After Seth" application data.
Yep, about a year ago on this blog there was a bit of an epic discussion about paying for Columbia, if anyone's interested...I mean, if anyone's interested I can track down the link to that thread. It has tons of details re. Columbia's (lack of) funding, in particular.
@ Eli, a link to that would be great to read even though I didn't apply to Columbia.
I think k is right when saying the majority of those frequenting these blogs are those who can't or won't pay for an mfa out of pocket.
I think the only ones I applied to that aren't full are Houston, Colo. State, and UNLV, all of which do have a lot of funding to give out, but not full rides to everyone.
But honestly I'm pissing myself so much over whether or not I'll get in that I don't have time to give a crap about money right now.
@phillywriter, k, ryan:
But lots of people who post here have Columbia on their lists -- or other New York schools. I just wonder if I missed some awesome idea, whether I could have applied to those unfunded schools after all. Little late now, I know :)
And thank you for your replies. I do know to be grateful -- that MFAs in the performing/visual arts are not usually funded. We're lucky schools need us as cheap labor to teach Freshman Comp. :)
@Ryan - sure thing dude, I'm trying to find it. As far as I remember it was an epic debate on Columbia funding during application season last year, with lots of precise details about available funding...if anyone else knows what/where it is and can find it quicker than me, then brilliant!
With respect to Columbia, yeah...they're killing us by inches with these fees. Some supplementary materials (GRE report, letter of rec) were late, and they took them, but I had to pay a $70 late materials fee. On the other hand, a year or two ago (I believe), someone from Columbia posted here that they do have material funding (although it may not make up for the price of living in Manhattan) but don't advertise it. YMMV
As for funding, I applied to schools with funding options, as well. I don't have much savings to pay for school but would be willing to take *some* student loan debt. Believing transparency is the best policy, I added a few lines to my statement of purpose/personal statement saying that I planned to pay for grad school by some combination of fellowship, TAship, and student loans. If I get into one of the programs that only funds some students and am not one of the funded, I'll have to pass on that option.
I applied to a lot of schools for that reason...not only need to get accepted but need to get accepted with funding, so the odds are probably against me.
As always, best of luck to all!
I don't know how cheap the labor is; after all, if you get full tuition waved plus a stipend plus healthcare you get a free couple of years where all you have to do is teach a few freshers and write? That ain't bad at all. Sure, that teaching is time-consuming, but not that "hard," surely.
frankish, are you kidding me? $70 dollar late fee? Excuse me, but fuck that sideways! So let's tally it up: $100 app fee plus $70 plus gre scores are what $23 now? Plus transcript fee of at least $5 each? plus postage? You just spent ove $200 on ONE application. I'm with Seth when he said NO ONE should go into 30k+ of debt over an MFA, and I think that applies here, too. I can't imagine paying that muchh money without a knowing it was sure thing I'd get in.
Not that I'm yelling at you; sorry if that came out wrong.
Ryan, I understand. That's why I said killing us by inches. Originally, I debated the $100 fee (plus usual GRE/transcript costs) but decided to go for it. Had I known I'd be paying another $100 in Need Access and Late Materials fees, I probably wouldn't have applied. Once I'd done all the work to send in my application, though, it seemed a shame not to have it considered. Slippery slope....
In retrospect, I should have set a strict budget for the whole application process (duh!). I ended up spending quite a bit (although Columbia was the only expensive school) but (at least for the sake of my own sanity) look at it as an investment, albeit a speculative one, to increase my chances of landing a funded slot.
Cheers!
So, does this work?
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=15642985&postID=3117503455194279442
If you scroll down there's a pretty epic Columbia debate here! BUT i'm positive there was a longer one with more funding details elsewhere, which would probably be far more useful.
We shouldn't have to pay for higher education -- PERIOD. It should be merit-based and funded (at least free tuition), like in the EU. Eli and others from abroad could, I'm sure, speak to this better than I can. But our entire US system of higher education is f*cked. A state school, like Michigan or Cal Berkley for example, partially supported by tax dollars and founded to serve the community shouldn't charge in-state tuition of $20,000+. Especially for an undergraduate degree, which is an entry-level requirement into the job market. Our misplaced priorities in this area have created a national crisis because it means the American workforce isn't equipped to compete with the rest of the developed world. And our brightest students (present company excluded) all become lawyers or investment bankers because that's the only way they can pay back their student loans.
It's all supply and demand. Demand drives the marketplace, and education is a very lucrative market. There's no reason to feel entitled to post-graduate education when, on a superficial level, you are going to live a solipsistic life and contribute little or nothing to society. We should feel lucky that we have an oppurtunity (which is merit based) to study (again, for the most part, this means obsessing about our own selves and writing, binging on coffee and/or alcohol, and disposing ourselves towards first years undergrads in a 'I'm the master of writing' sort of fashion for the next two or three years) for free at the schools at all. Even if my writing was drop dead gorgeous (which it's not), I would never feel entitled to a life of relative luxury because of it. Not trying to be offensive, those are just my thoughts. One can be too gracious, but the vast majority of us prefer it to its opposite.
I don't think Tribe was saying he feels entitled, I think he was speaking more about the imbalance in the education system. I feel the same way that he does; it does, at times, feel like a racket. But luckily, our profession isn't about what we can do for ourselves, but being informants of the world, even if no one ever reads our work. Going to grad school is a luxury, to be sure, but it is a luxury that is also necessary in our society, and seems some places are charging for both.
Kitty,
I know we say things like "informants of the world" and "necessary for society" but that is inside talk, writer talk. Who outside the writing community would agree with that? 99 people out of 100 would label journalists as "informants of the world" long before writers would even come across their minds. My point is simply this: we, or those of us that get it, are lucky to get monetary compensation for writing for 2-3 years. Many tax payers would probably be outraged that fiction andf poetry writing programs have funding at all, especially in these disadvantageous times. Even writers themselves have questioned wether writing has any real value (Auden's 'Does Poetry Matter?" immediately jumps to mind), such that, when it comes down to it, the reason why we do this (or try) is because we (you, me, everyone else who wants to be a writer and then no one else) love it. Let's not pretend it's some sense of obligation stemming from altruistic sensibilities. Sure, there are consequences that may benefit society, but that's not why we do it. We do it for ourselves, because anyone who's done it before knows that 'it's a hell of a thing for a work of art to come out of you.' We are all chasing that feeling. Respek.
@John - I'm not talking about myself at all. I have zero complaints about the way things have gone. I'm a Columbia undergraduate and, to be honest, Columbia has been amazingly good to me. They, basically, took me out of the ghetto when I was 18 (and incredibly stupid) and have put me in a position where my biggest concern right now is whether or not Joel Brouwer will like my sestina. Please say "yes", Joel!
My concern is with the system. I grew up with some kids who were brilliant, practically born with clever insights into how things work and how to work them. But they learned at an early age that education wasn't merit-based and wasn't available to the poor. So, instead of contributing their gifts to the greater society, a lot of them are now a drain on the system. This country is missing out on innovative engineers and brilliant medical researchers because our system doesn't exploit this country's indigenous resources. Instead, we outsource to countries that educate their people for free or import our high-end skilled laborers pre-packaged and ready to go. And, to make things worse, ghetto kids who are brilliant enough to make it out don't go back to the community they came from to contribute those gifts and inspire others because they've almost inevitably become corporate lawyers or investment bankers who are busy working their @sses off to pay off the loans they couldn't afford. Importing would be great, if we had a population problem. But the people who are here aren't going anywhere. Society will either have to utilize them or pay the price of crime, drug addiction, etc.
I'm not saying Europe is better -- I remember the Paris riots from years ago. It may be worse, for all I know. But at least college tuition is free for the kids who test well (though the testing system has its own biases, I know) but its a better system for the poor than our system where brilliant performance gets kids an @ss beating on the playground instead of free tuition.
Yes, I understand your opinion, John, but I respectfully disagree. I'm not arguing for what we as writers feel about our own work, I'm speaking to what is important about it in the larger perspective.
To speak of the reality of funding for a second: The reason that MFA students get funded is , for the most part, because they fill entry level positions teaching freshmen composition or something comparable. University's are businesses, and this money that funded people receive is not 'free', unless they are on fellowship. Even with waiving tuition, they university is more than likely still making a margin of profit by 'hiring' MFA students to do the grunt work in exchange for their education, plus a little extra. If enrollment is down, then there aren't as many positions available.
So, if an outsider came to ask why these people were getting all of this money, then that would be the answer. After all, it isn't really, on those basic terms, a 'free ride' for the student. But it is an excellent deal for someone who is in the position to enter a program and accept the conditions, to pursue the craft and to become part of what Carl Phillips calls "the constant movement" that all writers belong to.
Just read the John/Kitty exchange -
FYI, I'm a girl. Pleased to meet you!
Also, I just want to be clear that I'm not talking about the merits of writing -- although, I do think it's quite valuable. I just wanted to point out the fact that for poor kids, even if they're brilliant, the very thought of going to college as an undergraduate -- whether they are aspiring engineers, doctors or dancers -- is the experience that many people are having here in regard to the Columbia or NYU or Sarah Lawrence MFA: Yea! I got in because I'm smart and talented. Too bad I can't go because I have, literally, no way to come up with the money I would need to attend. The f*cked up thing is that there are kids who can't put together the money to attend, as an undergraduate, one of the state institutions that (theoretically) exist to serve their community because the tuition at state schools are so expensive, too.
It's not a supply/demand issue. We have huge demand in what 99 out of 100 people would probably agree are vital fields, such as nursing and engineering. Unfortunately, our priorities are skewed to value a perceived immediate payoff instead of a necessary long-term investment. So we aren't investing in the workforce that we need to fill these positions. These skewed priorities are the reason a bridge in the twin cities collapsed and New Orleans was drowned, not by a hurricane, but by an inadequate levy system that the inspectors knew would collapse under stress. Because our system is set up to pay $10 later instead of a penny now.
Kitty makes a good point. The fact is, undergraduates are more likely to be taught by a GTA or an adjunct professor than they are by full-time faculty (at least at most large universities). Universities ARE businesses and graduate students are a way of cutting costs while continuing to train future academics (at least the small percentage that make it that far).
Also, as far as "necessity" I think you can see above. But more than this, the recession is making the job market harder to enter for young people (or people of any age for that matter) and advanced degrees are becoming the status quo for many professions. When people with 10-20 years experience are taking positions that would have gone to new graduates or even people years out of college, how is one to even the playing field? I will agree that an MFA (in anything) may be more of a luxury than other graduate degree, however, what degree guarantees any kind of job anymore? Newly minted lawyers are working as accountants, at Fed-ex, or are living with their parents as they scour job ads. People in the applied sciences are taking large pay cuts just to have a job. Long ago (long before most people on this blog were born including myself), a college education meant that you would likely get a job after graduation. While this meant a full workforce, it didn't necessarily translate to a competent or happy one. We're living in a society where connecting the dots isn't enough. People have to strive to excel, think creatively, and take initiative and most people don't do those things. In this respect, maybe the type of person applying to MFA programs (obviously not all) is better equipped to deal with a wider range of situations and occupations.
Hmmm... seems to me some fuzzy math, but I'll be willing to go along with it.
But then, where I'm still a little aloof: you are saying the "larger perspective" of writing is that universities are sweat shops, slave-driving TA's? That doesn't seem like a larger perspective, and I can't understand what's important about it. Not trying to offend you, just trying to understand your point(s)...
Trilbe,
I agree completely. Government is beaurocratic. Go to Washington DC and sit in the House or Senate galaries on Cap Hill. You will be amazed that they actually accomplish what they do. Still though, I am of the opinion we are entitled to nothing in this life (even education) and we should be grateful for everything we get). Don't get me wrong, I want to and do help those less fortunate than me, but I am really of the opinion that the truly humble individual is grateful for anything--even life itself.
@trilbe on the education debate, it's a difficult argument, but i definitely agree with you that Europe and most of the world have it right with free education. It's not just about uni. either, though. It starts from the bottom. America in general cares less about education than almost any other country, and it shows in the workforce and the way business is handled around the nation. This is a huge black hole of an argument because it brings up poverty vs. wealth, education vs. none, not to mention the way families work in the US nowadays (ie the number of kids being born out of wedlock and into a clusterfuck of a broken home), etc. (because poverty is linked to education is linked to crime, etc.). I'll let someone else take it from here, because I have magic bag next to me with a million things to say about this subject.
To pay for my applications I have been selling my plasma (as in, blood) for the last few months. I go twice/week, used to get $70/week but they've since lowered it to $50. Another month or two and I'll have the expenses covered. Then I'm getting a tattoo! ; )
@John - I don't think we disagree, actually. I'm extremely grateful for everything I have been given. I've gone to private schools my whole life -- my entire education has been an act of charity. But I would like to be clear: I'm not talking about education as entitlement, at all. I'm talking about dollars and cents, fundamental investment math. From the 1930s until the junk bond era of the 1970s-1980s, investing was (basically) about analyzing the fundamental elements of an opportunity to determine its value. Student loan rates were 1% (or even a fraction of a percentage point) and state college tuition, relative to the current value of the US dollar, was what community colleges now charge. Back then, investment income was steady but relatively low, there were few bubbles and no crashes. And a college education was valued as an investment in middle class stability.
Ryan,
re: "Sure, that teaching is time-consuming, but not that "hard," surely."
Just wanted to drop my two cents: Yes, teaching is "hard."
@John
I disagree with most of what you've said, but I think the bulk of my contention has been covered by others.
You say that taxpayers wouldn't be happy if they knew we were being paid to write for 2-3 years. Where do taxpayers figure in full funding? Most full funding programs, if not all of them, get their funding from private sources, i.e. individual, corporate, and foundation contributions. I should know; I work in fundraising. This includes public universities which maintain private foundations to accept charitable contributions, which are then funneled to the university programs. If you're referring to FAFSA money (which is not applicable in full funding scenarios), most of that is loan money, so taxpayers actually make money off of people like us pursuing our writing for 2-3 years and paying interest back to the government for the rest of our lives. (Pell grants are extremely difficult to qualify for.)
@ Trible
I see your point with state colleges, especially CA's situation. But it is just the reality of how the system works right now. Most state schools have their tuitions as low as they can go. They try to make up for budget shortfalls with charitable contributions, but in especially difficult times like these endowments and stocks drop, which affects the amount of donations from every source. The only way to not have an insurmountable deficit without firing faculty is to increase earned income, i.e. tuition.
@John
I disagree with most of what you've said, but I think the bulk of my contention has been covered by others.
You say that taxpayers wouldn't be happy if they knew we were being paid to write for 2-3 years. Where do taxpayers figure in full funding? Most full funding programs, if not all of them, get their funding from private sources, i.e. individual, corporate, and foundation contributions. I should know; I work in fundraising. This includes public universities which maintain private foundations to accept charitable contributions, which are then funneled to the university programs. If you're referring to FAFSA money (which is not applicable in full funding scenarios), most of that is loan money, so taxpayers actually make money off of people like us pursuing our writing for 2-3 years and paying interest back to the government for the rest of our lives. (Pell grants are extremely difficult to qualify for.)
@ Trible
I see your point with state colleges, especially CA's situation. But it is just the reality of how the system works right now. Most state schools have their tuitions as low as they can go. They try to make up for budget shortfalls with charitable contributions, but in especially difficult times like these endowments and stocks drop, which affects the amount of donations from every source. The only way to not have an insurmountable deficit without firing faculty is to increase earned income, i.e. tuition.
Riah,
State schools are given money by state governments, which comes from taxes. Some of this is allocated to MFA programs, which is a fact. I'm not saying it is a huge amount, simply that it is. It's not enough to make your average taxpayer cry for arms, but, all other things being equal, it is one more government expense at which they are likely to scowl.
Also, I fail to see how your work in fund raising has anything to do with with MFA program budgets, unless you are a fundraiser at an MFA program or something tangential. But I'm really not trying to make anyone angry here. I think Trible and I recognize that we were talking about two different things from the start.
subscribe please.
Oh, money. Good times.
Anyway, anyone else notice that last year Greensboro notified fiction writers around this time?
That's all.
K, I hadn't noticed. Now that you bring it up, I can obsess about it. Thanks. :P
I'm surprised I didn't see Greensboro on more folks' application lists (at least from memory). Seems like great program to me.
Cheers!
@k re: UNCG
Yes! Although, I'm a poet. And I didn't get accepted at UNCG until the tail end of March.
Still freaking out nonetheless! TAKE ME BACK, GREENSBORO! PLEASE?!
NM
It's a bit sad that business interests have done such a good job at framing the terms of the debate. We accept that universities are businesses, even though they're mostly public institutions. Public institutions exist to provide a benefit to the public, not to make money, even so that they can perpetuate themselves. It's a society investing in its people. It's also sad that we're left to justify education in terms of workforce readiness. That kind of machine age, factory-oriented thinking has much to do with why people are miserable today. CNN ran a story a couple of weeks ago about how record numbers of Americans are unhappy with their jobs. We've missed the human element in the equation. People aren't machines, and our educational system increasingly treates them as such. Ask someone who teaches in a public school and has to deal with the increasing pressures under No Child Left Behind. Our higher education system is following suit, and the whole setup is creating a dissonance with the fact that people are getting tired of being treated like profit-generating robots. It's my hope that our current economic shitstorm will remind us of concepts like a broad-based education that includes the humanities (you know, things like poetry) being good for a society and making us more productive because we aren't so goddamn miserable. More than that, though, we should ideally be reminded that the arts and humanities have intrinsic value beyond profit, and that all the profit in the world doesn't add up to human happiness.
I'll step down from my soap box now. Besides, my creative writing class will soon enter my classroom and light up my day. It's not all cause for despair. =)
@all - I'm truly sorry to have diverted the conversation into the realm of filthy lucre. I just love the poetry of value investing almost as much as I loves my Modernists. Truth!
Xataro,
That's a really nice thought, but unfortunately I think the current economic situation has had the opposite effect: now, more than ever, people are focusing on the practical (i.e. that which merits monetary rewards) rather than the prudential (i.e. what really makes me happy?). Economics works on principles of efficiency, which leaves no room for the mind to wander or remain aloof.
I didn't apply to UNCG, but I ended up applying to UNCW, which also notified in January last year. My other early notifiers are Kansas, Wyoming, and Penn State. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
Not sure how many of you are following the PW MFA Speakeasy, but apparently 1100 people applied to Michener, and 800+ Wisconsin.
Gulp.
And just a reminder - Wisconsin is accepting only fiction this year, so that's 800+ fiction applicants.
@John
I suppose time will tell. I like to think that disillusionment will cause people to ask better, deeper, questions than they tend to ask when everything is running smoothly. It's when the power goes out that we realize how much we rely on it.
Either way, we certainly live in interesting times that -- regardless of your perspective -- should yield interesting topics to write about.
Yeah, that does sound daunting. But think of is this way: most of the process for them is separating the chaff from the wheat, so to speak, so 100 or so more application actually yields only 1 or 2 more competitors. At the same time, it's kind of depressing because most of us are probably chaff.
There's a difference between being grateful and being immobile. I find flaw in the idea that we cannot criticize our system and build it for the betterment of our own people on the idea that this somehow makes us ungrateful.
***disclaimer: the following rant is not directed at anyone in particular.
I also find issue with the legitimacy of a MFA. As it has been said, many times, a MFA does not guarantee a job but hell, neither does an undergraduate degree. On some glossy philosophical level, we can go into the who's who of American that never attended college or even graduated.
You shouldn't go to graduate school for anything other than what you love. Some people are 200% driven to become a doctor, others are 200% committed to becoming a writer, both contribute to society in different ways and neither can do each other's job.
Is it a matter of money? A starving artist? Hell, doctors aren't making a nickel nowadays, not for the work and time they put in. What? Getting a law degree so I may become partner or that nickel and dime chump who gets some sort of Marcus and Mac rerun commercial during day time TV with some washed up VJ from MTV to be my spokesperson. Oh that sounds real great! Thank you, graduate school!
I love reading about the 1940s, when the idea of Advertising was some whack job idea and not as concrete as the blue collar factory worker and so on. Nowadays, you'll find more undergrads with Marketing degrees than you can shake a hypothetical stick at.
Or really, what is a MBA when you think of it? Most people cannot even buy their way into a graduate school with a half of decade plus under their belt. If they're ambitious, they could be a top level executive before any school even looks at them. Ask the fresh faced twenty something year old who went straight from undergrad to grad and MBA versus our season wine veteran.
Come on now, if being a grown up has taught me anything about the job market, it's that experience trumps fancy degrees. I should know, I have one, and what's the first comment out of every interviewers mouth?
"Oh this is all pretty but what about experience?"
Graduate school is a luxury in itself. It's a gateway into the big boys club upper level.
I just believe we're programed to think that to get to 2.5 kids with a car and two chickens and every pot, there's this singular path that everyone must walk, and that simply isn't true.
Will every poet make an impact on society? uh...no, but I'm quite sure that not every lawyer, investment banker or doctor will make some impact on society either.
I guess my point is, a masters is what you make of it.
It's irritating to me that I am as nervous as I am. I really thought I would keep a cool head about all this. I had this whole zen approach of "Well, it will all work out the way it should..." So mature. Except I am anxious and not feeling the zen lately. I'm going to distract myself with cooking this afternoon and possibly crack a beer before 3 pm.
RE:UNCW -- It looks fantastic, and it's one of my top picks. But the funding is unclear to me.I wonder if that is why more folks didn't have it one their lists.
@ElizabethB - I'm CNF too. I tinkered with the idea of applying in poetry, but decided that writing a memoir took priority over everything else.
For my sample, I submitted three essays. The first two are childhood essays in slightly different styles and the third is a travel piece about a trip to Japan.
I guess I worry a little that the adcom won't take me as seriously because I'm only 22, but I hope my writing conveys some sense of maturity. I've always been old for my age, as they say. What did you submit for your sample?
I don't want children or chickens. I would, however, like a car with a cup holder. And my undergraduate degree has failed to provide this to me, despite my efforts and my willingness to sometimes wear pantyhose.
Kerry,
I remember seeing on UNCW is able to offer funding to about 40% of its class. Not great, but better than many schools!
Has anyone else received the attachment from BGSU that starts with, "We are pleased to inform you," but then goes on to say, "that your application materials have been forwarded to Creative Writing for evaluation." Evil. Evil.
koru,
What does it matter if someone comes from a "small, regional school?" What qualifies as such? What are you getting at here? MFA programs don't care where you got your undergrad. At all. And they aren't too picky about undergraduate grades.
I think a more realistic guess at who is paying for their MFA is:
a) People who are independently wealthy
b) People who are unaware of funding opportunities, who apply mostly to local schools or without doing much research
c) People whose writing sample is not good enough (or the right fit) to get them into the most competitive programs, and are getting their MFA at one of the less talked about programs with no real funding of which to speak
d) Other
@Ashley-
Many good, well-known programs have funding problems. There are top-tier schools that can't fund all of their students. That's unfortunately just the way it is. The fully-funded programs are obviously more competitive, and not getting in doesn't mean the writer isn't "good enough" and has to settle for a school with less funding. When the odds are 2% admission, even some of the best writers have to spend more out of pocket to go somewhere with less funding if they really want to get an MFA. That's a personal choice, of course.
Alana,
I'm afraid you misunderstood. In "c" I was not talking about ALL unfunded programs. I am well aware that many top schools, especially those in New York and California, are unable to offer much funding. This is why I specifically said these students may be attending "one of the less talked about programs." I didn't say that because one is going to one of these programs that they're not good either. But let's be honest: Many of these programs are less competitive by leaps and bounds than the top schools. They may receive only a few dozen applications. These schools are generally easier to get into, but that does not mean that the quality of work they produce or the experience they offer is any less.
My D "other" section surely covers a large number of students as well who have experiences or reason that I didn't explain.
Anybody who gets into and attends a competitive program without funding must either already have access to a lot of money, have a way to make a lot of money, or be willing to go into debt. I definitely can see where it would be worth it to some. I was VERY tempted by NYU and Columbia. But I try very hard to avoid debt of any kind and I had to pass on those schools.
"C" was only one of my explanations and I certainly believe it applies in some cases.
Rose,
You're always in the know. Where did you find the Michener and Wisconsin numbers on the speakeasy? That place is a clusterf*ck to me.
RugbyToy,
I saw them posted there as well.
http://www.pw.org/speakeasy/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=227311;page=238;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;guest=5599594
If that link gives you any trouble, the conversation starts on page 238 of "The Waiting Game...Have you heard yet???"
Curious what people have heard about the nonfiction faculty at Penn State and UNH.
burlaper, I received the same attachment from BGSU today. I'm still trying to calm down from that.
I really wish it were April already. :D
Cate -
I hear you
Can anyone find a link to the cached page of Seth's Selectivity rankings (ie, the ones that had applicant pool size by school where such data was provided him). Just curious. I've been googling with no luck.
Ryan,
I know there is a copyright issue with this info and I think Seth said it will be back up in February. I have in saved to my computer, but I'm pretty sure I'm not allowed to share it...?
I know we're all really worried about the process, now. But I really feel like these people who read the apps and select the students must know what they're doing -- not because I have particularly deep faith in teams of academics, buy because the results seem to be so good. People love their MFA programs. The feedback I've heard here, on Poets & Writers, at the MFA Chronicles, from friends who are in programs, has been consistently good. For the most part, people seem to feel that they've ended up at the place where they belong. So, I feel like those readers must be doing something right.
AB, I meeeeeeaaan...
If you don't feel comfortable with doing it, don't. I was asking for a link bc google blogs are saved and even if something is "erased" you can usually veiw a cached image of what was there.
but my email is ryan.s.warren(at)gmail.com if you change your mind. (Insert elbow nudge.)
I wish I had saved that data. Hindsight is 20/20
Gah I know right?!
AB, in more of a convincing effort, I will say that I believe the contract is just between Seth and P&W. Soooooo, neither can control the fact that the article in question could exist on several folks' hdd... Just saying.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. . .
Which programs CALL people about acceptance? I didn't know this was a thing.
David,
Yep, many schools call. You ought to check out Seth's blog to see how your potential schools have historically notified their applicants:
http://sethabramson.blogspot.com/2010/01/2010-data-bank-cw-mamfaphd-application.html
@Ashley-
Yes, I think I did misunderstand what you said. I agree - I didn't apply to Columbia or Sarah Lawrence despite their high rankings in CNF because I'm not willing to go into $100,000 in debt for an MFA. I really wish they offered at least some funding to make it manageable. I applied to University of Arizona knowing their funding is limited, but hoping for a TAship so I can get a tuition break. However, if they don't give me any funding, as much as I loved the school when I visited, I could not attend.
Alana--
I submitted two essays, both memoir. One is about religious impulses, the other about scattering my grandmother's ashes (or the preceding awkward moments).
You're having some second thoughts about the schools to which you applied? Which schools did you apply to, and what are your concerns?
Just to ensure that bad info doesn't get around (and because this has already been semi-publicly disseminated): UW-Madison got 629 applications this year in fiction. I know this for absolute fact. The "800+" number from P&W refers to where the English Department--as a whole--was at, at a particular point in the process. Ultimately the English Department (including M.A. and Ph.D. programs in English Literature, Rhet/Comp, and Applied Language & Linguistics, plus the MFA program) received 1,000+ applications. But the figure for UW's MFA (fiction-only admissions this year) is 629.
Be well, all,
S.
Seth,
Thanks again for the info. Might you have the time and inclination to put together an "# of Applicants" list to some of the top schools?
You know, just for curiousity sake. (We are all terribly, horribly, anxiously curious!)
Hi Amy,
For contractual reasons, I'll put everything back up (including the most recent application count per school, from the data available) in 10 days -- on February 1st. Be well,
Cheers,
Seth
@Elizabeth-
I don't really want to go into specifics about the concerns I have on this forum since it's very public. If you're curious, or just want to talk about CNF stuff, feel free to email me. My address is alana.saltz @ gmail.com
Cate, I hear ya too. I've read my writing sample differently so many times, hating or loving it or finding it completely unworthy of comment, depending on my mood, interest level and how long i haven't looked at it for. If I think like that, it's obviously even more arbitrary for its readers - I know I'm not absolutely incompetent, that's for sure, but otherwise it's impossible to know what any reader would make of it, so whether it's seen as fantastic or blah or awful is going to depend entirely on factors such as the ones you described. Which makes me feel despondent.
Still looking for that Columbia funding discussion, btw.
Also, Seth, thank you for the Wisconsin info. For some reason, knowing the number of applicants i'm up against gives me a cosy delusion of control to cling to!
Alana, good luck! I too have applied to several schools that only fund "some" of their students, and I'm not sure what I'll do if I find myself accepted but without funding. If MFA programs weren't funded, I would have had to stay in Ohio to keep the cost of tuition down. So if I personally am not offered funding (or at least SOME money), I'll try my damnedest to find a way, but I'm just not sure. I hope I don't have to worry about this!
Oh, yes, and Seth - thanks for clearing those numbers up! It's good to know the numbers haven't gone up TOO much, even though I didn't apply to Wisconsin. Good luck to all who did!
Also, I look forward to February 1st! :)
I wanted to chime in as a lurker (but devoted reader) - this blog has been an invaluable resource to me and an empathetic lifeline.
I really wish everyone the best of luck as we face these incredible odds. I'm stuck at a sinking ship of a job (and an industry) and really need an MFA lifeline out of here!
Oh dear, I got one of those evil heart-attack-inducing letters today. It was from Brooklyn, and it began "We are please to inform you..." but then ended "... that we have forwarded your application materials to the department for consideration." Cruel!
I just got the Juniper Summer School thing from Amherst. Can't believe they bothered to send it to an address in England. But more to the point, I am SO glad it was brought up here before because i would have gone nuts otherwise! As it was, I was sweating and jumping around, saying 'an early rejection, an early rejection!' Alas (i mean, phew), 'twas just Juniper.
Yeah, I've received a few emails (forwarding my application to the department, congratulations your applications is complete, etc.) that got me anxious. At least people haven't started reporting calls from Alabama and other (possibly) early reporters. So my weekend will be just anxious instead of miserable. :D
Here and on P&W a few people have lamented the arbitrariness and/or subjectivity of the process. I definitely agree that not knowing exactly what the bar is (and thereby being able to judge how likely you are to clear it) can provoke a great deal of anxiety. One comforting thought, though, at least to me, is that any arbitrariness or subjectivity in the admissions process is just as likely to work in an applicant's favor as against her or him...assuming he or she doesn't believe the submitted sample is better than any of the other applicants so would definitely be accepted otherwise.
I could use a drink. Sadly, it's only 10:00 am.
Cheers!
Frankish, good call...and on the booze front too :)
Frankish, yes, the subjectivity really makes me nervous. When I tell friends/family how nervous I am about getting in, they all reassure me and say things like, "How could you not get in, with your GPA and recommendations and etc. etc. etc." It reassures me for a moment until I remember that all of that stuff barely even matters. :/ I have faith in my writing sample and think it was my best work -- all I can do is hope the admissions committees will like it too.
Hi, everyone. I'm with you guys today -- feeling like this whole process is such a totally subjective crap shoot that I dare not even suppose I'd get in anywhere. The percentages just suck SO much. You can be good, you can be awesome -- and still not get in anywhere.
I need a distraction. Drinking -- sounds like a plan :) There are only 9 days left until the Barnes & Noble at which I work closes, and I keep saying that what we all need is a chemical dependency of some sort to help fill the days when we're no longer employed :)
Actually. There are two of you here who could help me out in the way of momentary distraction. WanderingTree and frankish, something about you two guys makes me want to read your writing samples. Are you up for a trade? I heard through the grapevine I should read WanderingTree's. And frankish, you keep describing yours as 'rough' and I want to see what you mean.
If either of you would like to satisfy this bored girl's curiosity and/or help me fill a few of these desperate minutes/hours from now till SOMEONE ANYONE on this blog hears something -- you can email me at laurenlipnicki at gmail dot com. Either of you up for a writing sample trade?
So, things have definitely become dire because I just spent some time looking at Seth's acceptance tracker thing and old calendars to figure out what day of the week different places tend to inform. I thought this was stupid and was just wasting time but it seems that Indiana University always calls on a Saturday. Interesting and unexpected!
Yeah, may be losing it just a little bit.
I workshopped WanderingTree's sample several months ago, and I can tell you it's quite good. His strongest work to date, imo.
@Lauren,
Sure. Sounds like fun...and I could use a good distraction! :)
I just bought stock! That's how I'm distracting myself.
Because otherwise, I have to continue editing an awful, passive voice, smarmy book about cap and trade.
Unemployment sounds like a dream.
OK, so I have held off offering to swap writing samples because-
(1)If your sample is obviously better than my sample, I end up feeling terrible.
(2)If I think my sample is way better, I'm filled with false hope. And then if I’m rejected I think “WTF, MINE WAS BETTER!”
(3) If I think yours is great AND mine is great too...well then I think about how this whole process is so random and subjective...and the waiting game gets more agonizing.
BUT, my curiosity has gotten the better of me! I want to read other MFA app. writing samples.
WanderingTree, I especially want to read your sample.
If anyone wants to swap email me:
cate.e.burton (at) gmail (dot) com
I also promise to publically praise you and your sample on this blog (even if I think your sample is crud) ...just kidding. I’m sure everyone’s sample is really very good. Blast! That brings me back to the subjectivity issue...I’m glad other people fret about it too!
Sure. I wanted to hold off until after I'd finished all of my applications but find myself curious now.
Cheers!
Plus my sample will make you feel good about your applications, I'm sure. :D
Sh*t! Blast! Darn! These samples are REALLY GOOD. no joke. Now, I feel terrible about my sample!
What was that about teaching English in foreign countries?
Cate, none of us REALLY knows what's going to get accepted and what isn't. There are so many crazy factors in the selection process that all you can do is keep writing and reading.
WanderingTree,
I hear ya! If you don't mind repeating for the 1000th time, where did you apply? I thought your sample was excellent, though definitely the sort of story that needs to consider "fit," which as far as I can imagine has to be the only reason you didn't find a school last year. I'm very confident that you'll find one soon!
Ashley, I'm trying to be hopeful but with so many people applying you just never know. I told myself I wouldn't get "crazy" after I sent all my applications but that doesn't look like it's going to happen.
I applied to Illinois (one of the early notifiers - ahh!), WUSTL, Brown, Wisconsin-Madison, Notre Dame, Southern Illinois, Syracuse, Iowa, Texas-Austin, Indiana, ASU, PSU. Definitely different than last year. The only school I still applied to that I'm still uncertain of in terms of "fit" is Indiana.
WanderingTree,
We're all going crazy; there's nothing we can do about it! We're hopeless.
Your list of schools makes perfect sense to me. At least as far as those I'm familiar with. I have a few early notifiers and they scareeee me the most!
So... (more MFA distraction)
I'm reading the symbol by Dan Brown. I've read every single book he's written and plot wise, he's become stronger which each book, though I must say that Angels and Demons is his best work and one of the best Thrillers I read (this comes from someone who does not read thrillers a lot).
Writing wise, I'm a little stuck, I have a tendency to burn out on writers that I read religiously, which I probably shouldn't admit.
I just find his writing to be a little superficial at times. I like his smooth transitions and the way he interlaces character thought with prose, or maybe I'm jaded, but I swear that besides Robert Langdon, all of his characters are virtually palette swaps: Rich old man from a long of rich old men. Brilliant woman, only in her field, will sleep with Mr. Langdon. Exotic henchmen, with many deep seeded issues but never the head of whatever the hell is going on.
I'm having issues settling into it. I just keep rolling my eyes and waiting for the big bang that sets the ball rolling. Maybe I have ADD, I started three books at once...four books at once! The Lovely Bones, The Lost Symbol, Lolita and White Teeth.
Lord, I've lost my mind.
The Lost Symbol by Dan Brown.
I should really take the time to look over my posts before my thumb gets to tapping that shiny orange icon that says 'Publish Your Comment.' It's the publish part, I swear, it triggers a voracious instinct in my writers self. Publish? YES!! Edit? NOOOOO!
WanderingTree,
Looking at your schools--some of which I too have applied for various reasons-- I'm curious: what's this about "fit?" I haven't read your sample, but am I correct in assuming you're writing in some style or genre that you feel those schools are more inclined to appreciate? Is this "experimental?" The term freaks me out. What's considered experimental fiction nowadays? I remember the time when patchwork narratives were considered new and innovative...
I've been reading a lot of prized anthologies lately and though the stories in them are all vastly different and wonderful, I dont see any of them as "experimental." Can anyone recommend writers or works that are largely categorized as such?
Also, in my research for schools, I didn't come across any faculty that show any clear preference for one kind of storytelling. Are there such schools? I didn't apply to Brown but apparently they're the "experimental" example? What are others?
4maivalentine,
I've certainly never read "The Lost Symbol," but I braved my way through half of "The Da Vinchi Code" and I must say it was one of the worst books I have ever read. Surely there were good qualities, but to me it was overhyped garbage and not even good for genre writing. I agree with your sentiment that his writing is superficial, though I am without any of the praise that your provide.
I don't normally like to speak ill of writers, but I think that the real reason I dislike him so much is because there was so much hype about him a few years ago. I just don't get it.
Ok, after all that pointless negativity:
I must add that Lolita is one of my favorite novels and that I quite enjoyed "The Lovely Bones" when I read it a few years ago. How is "White Teeth?" I have heard good things.
I couldn't enjoy the lovely bones, though I think it's a good concept. It was just overly sentimental for me. And then the writing, at a sentence-to-sentence level, wasn't enjoyable.
Ashley-
I agree with you, really. My friend told me that The Louvre museum recently began to offer the Da Vinci Code tours? Shoot me in the head.
I guess I was in some way asking if my opinion of Dan Brown has changed so drastically because I'm a more mature writer or am simply burned out?
I'm enjoying White Teeth. I love Zadie Smith. On Beauty was great, and her style is so fresh and crisp. When I read her, I can practically smell the cigarettes (even though I abhor smoking) and hear the efficient clicking of type writers. She just has this way of jettisoning you back in time, and you trust her. It's a wonderful feeling to trust the writer. She's the main reason that I have my heart set on NYU (I know, writers don't make the best professors, you'll always be disappointed when you meet your hero, etc.) I can't help it!
*momentary juvenile breakdown*
OMG, I really, really, really, REALLY want to get into Cornell or NYU. Cornell AND NYU. I don't care if I'm rejected from everywhere else! Please, please, please, pleeeeeaaaassssse!!
My superstitious self says that I jinxed it.
ANYWAY, my friend 'The Lovely Bones,' years ago, and she told me to read it and I never got around till now. Is it just me being a snob, or does everybody else hate to read a book after Hollywood bastardizes...I mean 'honors' it with a movie? I feel like some sort of consumer lemming.
Lolita, Lolita, Lolita. I feel like anyone who has the nerve to call themselves a writer has no choice but to read it. I'm excited though. :) Wow, that's dorky, right? To be very excited to start a book? It's that butterflies in the stomach excitement too.
@Ashley Brooke,
i LOVED white teeth. actually, i'm just a big zadie smith fan in general and almost threw my macbook across the room when i realized she'll be teaching at NYU this year and i didn't apply. anyhow, i would recommend giving it a read and i may just pick it up again myself since it's been a few years.
These writing samples are really good. I hope the writers here are better than the average applicants...otherwise, it's on to Plan B. :D
On Dan Brown, he's good a creating suspense, but his books aren't really for me. For that kind of thing, I thought Silence of the Lambs was a great read. Also enjoyed The Club Dumas and Perfume. Perfect reading if you're on a long plane trip.
4maivalentine,
I'm not so critical of film adaptations as you are, though I was a film student in undergrad and have a weak spot for cinema. Plenty of great books get turned into crummy movies, but there are some winners.
I did see The Lovely Bones this week, and I thought the film was decent, though far from perfect. It had been a while since I read the book, so I didn't feel slighted.
okay okay, I'll bite. Does anyone want to exchange writing samples with me? I was avoiding it because I have the same fear as Cate but you guys are making me so curious with your discussions about it!
Anyway, my email's jepaslay@gmail.com if anyone's interested.
Brandi/Ashley,
I wasn't really a fan of The Lovely Bones (the book or the movie). I felt the same way about the Time Traveler's Wife although the movie adaptation of that book was even worse. Both great concepts, but I didn't fall in love with the writing. I'm also not a fan of sentimental family/lover/friend stuff.
Dolores,
Dolores, I think the whole "fit" thing is tricky because you don't know who is going to read your sample. And the person you do want reading your story might be looking for other things entirely. You just don't know. I don't think ANY professor would look at a story and say, "Hmm, this isn't wacky enough or this isn't real/traditional enough. I think I'll say no. YOU SHALL NOT PASS" Okay, I'm done. But with that said, I tried to find some direction during the application process. I read the work of faculty and of recent alumni, and I paid attention to what kinds of journals they publish in (i.e. a Ninth Letter or a Fairy Tale Review pub seemed more promising to me than say something like The Hudson Review). I also looked in the archives of P&W to get some insider info from current and former students about what they felt their programs were all about. Using that information, I applied to places that I felt were more open to different aesthetics.
Experimental doesn't really mean anything imo. Some stories just take advantage of certain literary devices and artistic freedoms more than others (and I guess a few prominent Brown grads take advantage of artistic license at times - Ben Marcus and Shelley Jackson to name a couple). Also, the idea of what is or isn't experimental or fashionable changes over time as generations get older. There are also discrepancies between the literature of different cultures/nations (i.e. magical realism being more of a staple of literature south of the equator).
Regarding successful film adaptations of books:
I just saw The Shipping News again. Kevin Spacey and Judi Dench are in it. I thought this movie was really well done and just great to look at. Okay, I said I didn't like sentimental crap, but maybe I'll make an exception here.
Anyone see John Krasinski's adaptation of DFW's Brief Interviews with Hideous Men? Thoughts? I thought it FAILED. And as likable as Krasinski's character is in The Office, I couldn't help but feel like this guy is probably a bit of a turd when I was watching this movie.
I love White Teeth! Years later, I'm still so in love with Magid and Millat, I feel like Irie.
Also, Zadie is a wonderful teacher! Warm, engaged, full of insight and eager to share it. If you want to know what she's like as an academic you should read her book of essays, Changing my Mind. She taught at Columbia last Spring and although I didn't take her class -- only the MFA students were allowed to take it and, anyway, it was overfull from the first day of registration -- but I took Nick's (Zadie's husband's) Irish poets class and he was so good, I can confidently say that he will forever be one of my favorite teachers! I already know that I'm going to spend the rest of my life revisiting the work we read in his seminar. God, it was so beautiful! Everybody knows Yeats and Seamus Heaney and Paul Muldoon, but I was introduced to two amazing poets that I'm sure I would otherwise have missed: Derek Mahon and Louis MacNeice. I'm changed after that experience.
And at the end of the semester, Nick and Zadie invited us over to the cute little place where they were living then, for wine and chitchat. And they both took the time to talk individually with us about our writing and our hopes for the future. I thought that was really good, engaged teaching. But it wasn't just at the end, I would say they were both really involved with all of us throughout the semester.
WanderingTree,
I have less trouble with the sentimental. If it's cheesy or melodramatic, I can do without it. But there needs to be emotion in fiction for me to connect to it.
Films I love that are based off of books: Trainspotting, Girl Interrupted, Of Mice and Men, High Fidelity, No Country for Old Men, The Shawshank Redemption, Into the Wild, Breakfast at Tiffany's... I'm sure there are more.
Also, I don't know how in touch Zadie's been with her students, but Nick has been supporting me throughout this application process -- despite changing continents, doing a book tour and having a baby, he still managed to respond quickly every time I needed something from him. I have such mad love for them both!
@triibe,
wow! how nice to hear that one of your favorite authors is also a great teacher and all-around good person. and it really does make me regret not applying to NYU. i suppose i always have the chance of rejection and could apply next year. :)
ack! i just realized this entire time i've been reading your name as triibe rather than trilbe. oh, dear. it appears my vision CAN get worse.
Argh, now I regret not applying to NYU too.
Trilbe, major jealousy!! I would probably explode from excitement if I ever got the chance to hang out with Zadie Smith at her home.
I thought about applying to NYU, but was dissuaded after I talked to one of my professors -- he knows one of the only incoming MFA students who got substantial funding at NYU last year, and that guy apparently runs an important literary magazine in London and has published a ton of stuff. I said, oh well, I cannot possibly compete with that.
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