I'm reading and re-reading my insanely optimistic and specific horoscope. If I don't into any schools, I shall finally know that Susan Miller was lying to me all this time! ;)
Link for those who want to check up on theirs... http://www.astrologyzone.com
Congrats to those who've heard back... and for those who haven't yet... it ain't over 'til it's over. No, really.
@burlaper - You may well be right. Princeton is probably still the preppiest (in the older sense of the word) of the ivies. Dartmouth seems both the most cozy and most jocky. Yale is still the most establishment. Brown the most progressive. And Harvard the most influential.
I've never really thought of Columbia and Cornell as ivies, which is certainly no slight...just a totally different vibe.
Once again I'm gasping to catch up with this crowd! This blog moves so. freaking. fast. I feel like I owe it to you guys to respond to anything I can be of help with, so sorry for replying to questions/comments hundreds of posts back, but here it goes:
@ Frankish - Marjorie Sandor
Marjorie Sandor is so amazing. She's the MFA director here at Oregon State and has been an incredibly supportive resource, and is downright wonderful to just sit down and chat with.
@ JimfifeOH - Portland State
To be honest, I don't know a whole lot about Portland State, but for some reason I've always been under the impression that it was a commuter college. Downtown Portland is a pretty awesome place - great food, big indie music scene, plus they have VooDoo Donuts (the most famous menu item being 'Cock and Balls'). The weather isn't great, but honestly, you get used to it. There's no sales tax here. Traffic can be a bitch, but I'm from Southeast Alaska, so I guess any traffic is sort of overwhelming to me. The public transportation system is rad, the airport is getting more and more direct flights to major destinations, housing is interesting, and Powells is there. There are a lot of hipsters, though. And yippies.
@ Eli - Famous Writers With an MFA
Cornell = Lorrie Moore
@ Sahaiden
I applied to Iowa, but I can honestly say it's not my number one choice. I started my undergrad at Northwestern's incredibly cutthroat journalism program, and I personally do not fare well in competitive environments. I can't say for sure that's what Iowa would be like, but I know two people who went there, and one person told me that every workshop of her entire first year was like a "lesson in humiliation." And another guy said he went home crying after every workshop. Some people have thick skins though, but I'm not one of them. Even still, I recognize the incredible achievement of being accepted into those programs, and to everyone who's gotten accepted into Iowa: GIGANTIC CONGRATULATIONS.
@ the poster who coined 'Wiscy Business'
LOL.
And with regards to the safety school discussion, my "safety" was Wyoming, where I was waitlisted.
On a totally separate note, is anybody here from Minnesota or has spent time in Minneapolis? I'm curious about what it's like to live there. Please e-mail me! hansenma at onid dot orst dot edu (annoyingly complicated univ address, I know)
I'm sending out a huge handshake to everyone who's been accepted and waitlisted, good good good luck to everyone still in limbo, and a gigantic thanks to the MFA blog participants. I would've had a nervous breakdown if I had never discovered you guys.
@Rose - Yeah, Marjorie is great. I lucked out...freshman year at college I placed out of expository writing so took a craft of fiction seminar with her instead. This was 22 years ago (doh!). For all I remember, she might have still been a grad student.
Anyway, she was great then, and I dropped her a line a few months ago to catch up (happened to see her bio at Oregon State even though I didn't apply there). In my experience, people never change; and Marjorie was always very kind and generous.
I read Susan Miller too! I'm a Cancer. I'm supposed to hear good news from a college Feb 24-25. I'm going to be super disappointed in her if I don't! She got my hopes up.
We may agree on, well, nothing, but if I recall you were the poster a few mailbags back who said s/he had only applied to two programs. I believe I ridiculed your decision, and I shouldn't have done that -- it was a classless move on my part and I apologize for it. Ultimately every applicant should pursue the path that seems best to them; if that means using data and/or rankings to make application decisions, fine, and if that means not using these resources, that's equally fine. I hope you meet with success this application season.
The only point I'd ask you to reconsider is your claim that me spending hundreds of hours a year providing MFA data to applicants for free is a "cottage industry." I make around 4K a year on MFA-related business -- nearly all of it coming from freelance articles, copy-editing work, and mentoring contracts. Virtually nothing comes from my online data. Attorneys with nine years' membership in the state and federal bar, as I have, typically bill out (depending on the city) between $200/hour and $500/hour. For my online research I earn approximately two or three cents an hour -- less than that since I stopped asking readers to consider making a donation to the site. That's a lot of work, for very little remuneration, to be told I'm greedy. I wouldn't be making 8K as a doctoral student if I was a money guy. That's not where my values lie. I think I'm helping, you disagree; I've thought a great deal about the impact rankings can and should have on MFA admissions -- and hear from students and MFA brass near-daily regarding that impact -- and you have quite a different view based on your own experiences. On this we can agree to disagree, it needn't be unpleasant.
As you know -- as we all know -- the rankings have been debated ad nauseam. I tend to think everyone has all the info they need to decide what they think about the project and its results. There are answers to all of your concerns, of course, and I've provided them both in print and online. Whether it's the case that you haven't seen them or have and simply find them unconvincing is immaterial, as either way it's a free country and you're more than entitled to your view. Best of luck with your applications -- the fact that we strongly disagree about the purpose, value, and impact of the rankings doesn't change at all my sincere desire to see other writers realize their goals. Whatever your road, I hope the trip is a smooth one and takes you where you want to go. Best of luck with all your applications,
I'm definitely incredibly excited! The stipend looks great (even if it's significantly less than what Seth's site has it listed for) considering the cost of living, and I'd be thrilled to live in a place where Creole is a living language. Amy Fleury mentioned that the local NPR broadcasts in Creole for parts of the day!
I'm still waiting on Irvine, JHU, LSU, Houston (and others I'm embarrassed to mention because they've already notified...) so we'll see!
I swore to my husband that I wouldn't check the blogs all weekend so that we could have some quality non-crazy time together. Well, he fell asleep during Big Love so I snuck on here. Let's see--what did I miss?
Trilbe!! Congratulations, you wonderful girl, you!!
A very happy birthday to A Astur., my partner-in-revolution!
An Iowa acceptance?!?! Pass the Mylanta. Reeeal Talk. But seriously, congratulations!
I saw that there is a second Courtney around here (which is to be expected: my parents were heavily swayed by mid-eighties female name trends) so I will hereby refer to myself as Fiction Courtney; my counterpart appears to be CNF.
From what I remember about last yyear, Iowa continued to notify for a while, at first by phone for their top candidates and later by post. I'm going to sleep now, soothing myself with the hope that there's a place for me out there. (Cue "Somewhere Out There" a la Fievel Mousekewitz in An American Tail.)
@Rose - it was famous genre writers I was challenging WT on, specifically science fiction/speculative fiction. Lorrie Moore doesn't write genre. Famous writers with MFA's would be a very silly question from me at this stage of the game. That made me lol.
@JasonJ - are you putting your MFA mix up here or on the ning group? I'd be well up for downloading it again. The last one was great.
Also, talking of excellent genre writers and Ivies...which no-one was, but never mind...John Crowley's at Yale, so if Yale started an MFA, his presence there would make it my no.1 choice by miles. But that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. No-one's heard anything on the Yale MFA rumour front, right? A Yale MFA rumour front most likely doesn't even exist. I'm not holding my breath.
(Also, I'd like to see a John Crowley inspired version of the 'That's Why I chose Yale' video'.)
Denis, 'fraid I love her work, but I can very much see why you would. I know lots of people who have no truck with her stuff at all. I think they're crazy :)
Just to weigh in on the Ivy League/CW thing, I'm a Yale senior and we do have an undergrad program called the writing concentration. It's only within the English major, which is good for me but not for a lot of people, BUT the classes are open to everyone. There's usually a lot of competition to get into them and I think they are planning to expand the program in the future.
I got a call from Iowa and I'm in for fiction. Extremely excited. (I haven't heard back from any other schools.) The woman I talked to had no idea this blog existed but I may have outed all of you.
@Yinz/Ya'll/Everyone What should we make of the U Washington Poetry acceptance yesterday and the subsequent call to their department which provided calls aren't made until next week? Fellowship?
I'm sure I've forgotten someone -- which is AWESOME -- because we have more people getting acceptances than I can keep up with!
@Everybody who's still waiting - Hang in there! I know that is a f*cking lame thing to say. BUT it's true. You can't say that you've been counted out while you still have schools that haven't notified yet! That shit is trite, but true. Nobody really thinks they're going to get into Brown, because the chances are so slim. But I guaran-f*cking-tee you that somebody here is going to get the shock of their life and then announce their acceptance. I'm not saying you should go out and buy a Brown tee-shirt, just yet. But at least hang in there and wait for them to accept somebody before you decide that you ain't that somebody.
I'm not trying to suck your d*ck here, and make you feel good. I'm just trying to spit some truth, yo!
@kaybay - I'm half Puerto Rican and I just had to chime in on the rice: sister, if that rice doesn't have pork-fat based sofrito, thus making it as un-veggie as rice can get, then that ain't no Puerto Rican rice. I love you, girl, but I just wanted to say that.
About the rankings, I just want to say that I don't think the quality of cohort can be ranked because there's no objective criteria with which we can measure the quality of the students' writing. Seth has suggested that selectivity does it. But what about my girl, Arna? She just hot into Iowa and Cornell, and appears to be shortlisted at Michener. But didn't she have Syracuse on her list and some other early-notifiers who don't appear to have chosen her? Selectivity just doesn't tell the whole story.
BUT with that said, I do think you can measure the quality of a program. Some programs are, clearly, offering a measureably better experience than others -- more time to write, less debt, a location with good quality of life. And, we're all ranking our lists based on this criteria. I mean, there are some people who are set on a place (like Lauren) or one particular instructor. But, really, who here isn't thinking about cost, teaching load, stipend and location? That's why I think a survey is actually a pretty good way to rank program this kind of program. I would also put in student-to-faculty ratio, but I'm not going to do the work to make that happen so I'll just shut the f*ck up about that.
Trilbe! These rice and beans are an interesting cultural study. One lady taught me to make sofrito with green peppers, onions, cilantro, tomato sauce, and, ahem, I must admist I also use a pre-made sofrito base as well *dodges shoe*. BUT, the other girl I work with made rice and beans for us and had the weirdest stuff in there! Like banana things and chicken and mangos or something... good, but totally different! I'll have to ask either of them if they use a pork-fat base, but I can't try that until after Lent ;) The easy recipe is legit though, so I must defend it :P
@kaybay - My family has recipes wher we put sh*t you wouldn't believe into a caldero. I mean, 5 or 6 different starches -- plus rice! Yautia, yucca, platanos, papas amarillas y sweet potatoes... It's crazy! I know that most people use that jar stuff, but my clan rolls old school: rendered pork fat colored with achiote seeds and then -- only then -- the fragrant herbs and veggies. We're, like, paleorican.
Le Tigre, Who exactly are you to "do away" with other people's work? Are you the police? What the hell is going on? If you don't like it, ignore it and stop pouting. I don't get it.
Congrats to acceptances!! I'm losing track but I know they were Iowa and Cornell.
Trilbe - "paleorican" haha, love that! Your family must be from the same side of the island as my friend, because your description sounds exactly like hers. She also claims it's the only way to make rice and beans :)
Right now I'm on a cliff overlooking a beach, with my laptop, looking like a complete tourist. None-the-less, my fellow locals aren't buying it. I just met up with an American friend (whom I met at college) in Negril. The locals are clinging to him like he's Christ incarnate (well, Christ incarnate who may be interested in buying their weed). Me they ignore, or they outright scorn. One man even assumed I was his gigolo . . . sigh.
Trilbe & Kaybay - why do Puerto Ricans call it rice and beans? I mean, you use peas in the recipe, so shouldn't it called 'rice and peas' (like how we say in Jamaica)? I got into a heated debate over this with a Dominican I dated during college. Good times. Seriously, tho - RICE AND PEAS (and we use coconut milk to boil the rice, then drop in chunks of salted pork or a whole salted pig's tail . . . mmmmmm soo gud :)
Aaand - congrats, Ben. (And anyone whom I may have missed).
Until I find a next rogue connection, The Flying Cratty
and hope for the rest: since honeybadger has two acceptances at Cornell and Mich, it means a spot will open up at one of those schools for someone else!
@Cratty -- Are you going to take the VT seat? Why or why not? Fiction or poetry? I had my phone interview but did not get an offer yet. Perhaps it's forthcoming, perhaps it's not. Hard to say. I get the feeling that they've made all their offers and are now interviewing for waitlist slots. But I don't really know.
@Honeybadger Hey, sorry about my comment last night. I really was confused b/c your message was almost verbatim to someone just a few posts prior. I'm still confused about that - but still, I was out a line. and outta my mind. (still outta my mind.)
congrats on your two acceptances. And I hope you didn't hurt yourself when you fell down the stairs.
consider your boo boo kissed, if you have one. and hope there's no hard feelings???? Someone called me out on my bitterness - and well, I was surprised - but now I realize, yo, she was right. WTF. Where did that come from? *sigh*
Breaking my self-imposed week of silence after realizing I was unhealthily addicted to the blog (I pondered giving it up for Lent, but no...).
Now I'm back, since scarfing a pint of chocolate peanut-butter ripple last night failed to assuage my nerves (that's right guys, I'm not even baking anymore).
@burlaper - I couldn't agree more. I went to Princeton undergrad, and I felt so lucky to be in an 8-person workshop with C. K. (effin') Williams, not to mention Linda Gregg and Tracy K. Smith (who is sooo nice in addition to being amazing). I don't think Princeton would ever agree to an MFA, and I would be sad if they did.
@ all the acceptees - way to go, everyone! Congratulations all around, especially to my fellow poets. I'm so proud of you all! To everyone who's heard "no"s, I'm sending happy acceptance vibes your way for the coming week.
Even though I'm debilitatingly nervous about waiting on these schools, I think I'm pretty philosophical about the actual news I'll be getting. If I'm in, that's wonderful and I'll be dancing around my apartment. If I'm not, it'll definitely sting, but I'll keep writing, keep sending stuff out to journals, and apply again next year. I can do this.
About the beans - There are many kinds. Crafty, you're talking about arroz con gandules, rice with pigeon peas, which Puerto Ricans do call peas. But we also make rice and beans -- with manymanymany kinds of beans, kaybay. None of them are right or wrong. I was even joking about the jar sofrito. I've had great rice made with it. As my titi Juli says, "Jus make it wit love, m'ija, and is too delicious -- como yo!"
@Seth -- I'm a great admirer of your work. All the time and energy you expended into collecting and compiling USEFUL data -- much appreciated. I think it's quite extraordinary and I'd like to shake your hand some day.
...BUT...
You take great pains to defend your work against the tiniest of critical remarks. Any hint of criticism and I'm thinking, Oh no, Seth Unleashed! You see a couple of ants crawling in your house and you'll want to blow it up with a nuclear bomb. I don't think it's necessary. Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe you do need to kill ants with a nuclear detonation. I don't know. But I do know that it's important to pick your battles and keep your arguments short, incisive, and to the point. I think you should just let some of the petty remarks against your rankings slide.
I do want to reemphasize that I like the rankings, especially the objective ones. The subjective polls, while less useful (to me), are at the very least fun to read.
@Trilbe - agreed! My mom is black and Norwegian, and no beans (or green vegetables, for that matter) made it to the plate in my house without some bacon grease or ham hock.
Dear Programs that are going to reject me via snail mail,
Do you think that is environmentally responsible? Think of the carbon footprint. Think of the poor trees. I suggest a quick email blast. There is no need for a mailman to carry my rejection thousands of miles. There is no need to put my rejection in ink. Follow Wisconsin’s lead. Just rip the band-aid off. Please.
@Frankish You forgot about UPenn. What’s their Ivy rep? Perhaps - The Ivy that everyone forgets about...
You're no doubt correct. I'm an imperfect man, what can I say? I was trained as a public defender -- spent 7 years arguing every day for things I believed in -- and as I see the rankings as a form of educational activism to increase funding for all students nationally, I tend to get as worked up about them as I did when I was defending indigent clients in Massachusetts and New Hampshire. But I agree it's a flaw. Sometimes I take it too far.
Shoot -- nice catch. My apologies for the bum data on McNeese State, I've fixed it. That came from someone's acceptance letter a couple years back I believe, but either the stipend has been changed or I misunderstood the info (e.g., the admittee may have said it was a $24,000 total package, and I wrongly was thinking McNeese was 2 years instead of 3 so I put it down as 12K annual rather than 8K). My bad, and again thanks for picking up on it. (And congrats on your acceptance!).
Yeah, I always forget about Penn. I can't really think of what they are famous for except Wharton and maybe their Anthropology/Archaeology dept. I don't know what the stereotype is.
PS @ Woon: I was just thinking that each year I mellow out just a little bit more re: the rankings. You want to see total war -- all out thermonuclear combat -- I have a feeling there are some threads still out there from early 2007 that capture it quite nicely. ;-p Hopefully by 2012 I'll be posting from my couch in a cloud of THC and giggling uncontrollably.*
S.
* Not that pot makes me giggle. Nobody think that!
@Seth -- When I first discovered forums back in 1997, I used to have a completely different online persona than I have now. Sports, literature, high tech, art, movies -- you name the board, I was there. It was such a new toy to me back then that I was posting like crazy. I also created forums so that I could mess with other posters. LOL! (I can't believe I'm admitting this) I even had a website that I'd use to air my personal rants and raves, long before "blog" became mainstream. Even the smallest of slights and I'd go postal. I've mellowed a lot since then. I gave away my forums and I shut down my website.
Now, I just write short stories.
Of all your rankings, I keep turning to your Selectivity rankings the most. I like seeing those app numbers and how the schools rank wrt each other. I noticed some schools were missing, no doubt because they refused to divulge data. For example, Colorado State. But with so many schools (and so many more opening up MFA programs in the horizon), it's a tremendous undertaking.
Rankings are great, but I hate it when people misuse (abuse) them. "Oh, I got into Iowa, the top school in the land, and you only got into Pokalonka State. I mean, who heard of Pokalonka State?" That's just wrong.
Last year, I thought about applying to MA programs in English Lit. I looked for rankings. There were none. It was almost a relief. Without rankings, it narrowed the factors I used in selecting schools and in a way, it was very liberating.
Re. misusing (abusing) rankings. A few years ago, I was in a writing group. One of the girls mentioned that she was going to an MFA program. I asked which one. And she said Hollins. My first reaction to her was, "Hollins? What the hell is Hollins? Where is Hollins?" It was very insensitive. No doubt that incident brought her to tears. I felt bad about that incident. I subsequently discovered more about Hollins and that it had a great MFA program. Anyway, last year I discovered that she didn't enroll in Hollins. Don't know where she ended up. Dear god, I hope she's not planning vengeance on me.
Just discovered this blog as the applicants I've written letters for this year have been obsessing over it, which is understandable. As a faculty member in a program about to make calls starting on Monday, let me just reiterate to all of you that this is an extraordinarily competitive year. We agonized over our decisions, knowing how important this is for so many of you. (We are a small program, with full funding, and we saw a 100% increase in applicants this year.)
Don't stop reading or writing, whether you get in or not. This is a maddening thing you're trying to do (write), and honestly, your acceptance or rejection at this early career stage means nothing in terms of where you end up in the long run. Whatever you end up doing for the next year or so, it's going to feed your muse if you let it, whether you're changing oil or waiting tables or sitting in workshop....
Woon and Seth — This is an interesting conversation. I've stayed out of the rankings debate until now, but wanted to add my two cents. The idea of a ranking hinges on the fact that we're categorizing something of a similar nature — and what's struck me about the MFA process, as I've researched and now applied to schools, is that so many MFAs are apples and oranges.
And that's great! I love that there are programs out there that focus on on experimental prose, or that are all about formal poetry, or that link an MFA with coursework in other disciplines, or that include an international or volunteer element.
Some of those programs, for good reason, won't garner as many applications as a school like Iowa with such broad appeal. It's the same reason we break college rankings into categories like liberal arts colleges and large research universities. Just because we all (hopefully!) end up with an MFA at the end doesn't mean that we're undertaking the same kind of education.
I've come to accept, more and more, that this whole process is about fit — the schools that have accepted me so far were the ones that, when I was researching my list last fall, just clicked for me. I clicked for them, too. But I think rankings can dissuade some — not all, by any means — applicants from applying to the lesser known, less popular schools that might offer that fit for them.
Thank you for the work you do, Seth — particularly when it comes to compiling selectivity and funding information for applications; this has been incredibly helpful to me. I also appreciate knowing the trends in where applicants, and where the most applicants, tend to be applying. I'm just not sure that I see how popularity among applicants translates into a "ranking" of anything but just that — popularity.
I don't know if Dean B is from Iowa State, but last year (or was it two years ago?), I emailed with someone from Iowa State. At the time, they didn't offer full funding. They offered one scholarship to their top candidate and the rest had to fight for TA-ships. Many were not funded. That's the impression I got. Things may have changed some over the years though, I'll grant that.
But you have to have an interest in Environmental writing. I don't really know what that is. I can guess, but I really have no insights. Most of my writings don't touch on Mother Earth and our relationship to her; rather, the destruction of ants with nuclear bombs.
I loved your playlist! I've been creating different playlists to relieve the waves of stress and anxiety.
The Frustrated Loud Mix **That's Not My Name - The Ting Tings Song 2 - Blur **I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For - U2 When Your Mind's Made Up - Glen Hansard & Marketa Irglova (Once sdtk) Jigsaw Falling Into Place - Radiohead **Plus Profond - Hooverphonic **I Feel It All - Feist I Just Don't What To Do With Myself - The White Stripes Again & Again - The Bird and the Bee Heart Skipped A Beat - The XX Hung Up - Madonna Harder to Breathe - Maroon 5 Let Me Be the One - Expose SOS - Rihanna Mercy - Duffy Everyone Wants to Rule the World - Tears for Fears Stronger - Kanye West Try Again - Aaliyah Superstar - Lupe Fiasco **Don't Stop Believing - Glee sdtk I Can't Wait - Nu Shooz
The Calm Down Mix Rollercoaster - Everything But the Girl **Don't Panic - Coldplay You're Not Alone - Olive In the Waiting Line - Zero 7 I Shall Believe - Sheryl Crow Change of Heart - El Perro del Mar Ooh Child - Beth Orton Do you Realize?? - The Flaming Lips Let Go - Frou Frou **The Trick is to Keep Breathing - Garbage I Am Not Good At Not Getting What I Want - Sophie Ellis-Bextor All These Things That I've Done - The Killers **You've Got the Love - Florence & the Machine
I went to the gym and didn't think about MFAs for an entire hour. But I did think about America's Top Model because it was on TV in front of my machines. I wonder if it's better to drive myself insane hitting refresh on this blog or lose brain cells watching beautiful girls out-pose each other.
@ the duchess Thanks for the music suggestions. I've wandered from this past-time of putting playlists together. Maybe I'll resume and post something as well.
Middlemarch is my favorite novel! One of my early online names was "dorothea."
Woon--I'd love to go to a school that specializes in environmental writing--that's what I do (formally in my CNF, and more subtly (I hope) in my fiction.)
I can't move to Iowa, unfortunately. That program sounds great.
It's a little belated, but I have no writer friends in real life, either. And Jasmine, I used to volunteer at 826 Valencia (a creative writing workshop for kids) which seems like a place one could procure some creative friends, but they were mostly dorks.
Also, every workshop I've been in has been full to the brim with freaks. That's why this experience is sort of nice.
Workshop, for me, was a mixture of undeserved egos, the completely delusional, petty mean spirits, and in at least one case, someone who was all three on top of being disturbed. I can think of a handful of people I thought were really cool, but I was just never able to become friends with them. I was really close to a couple of guys for a while, one of them for years actually, but they turned out to be d-bags of the highest order.
So, I hang all my writer-friend-hopes on grad school. I have this fear that I'll never make any, though, and it'll just be a repeat of the d-bag show.
Sorry, I forgot I would fuel a ton of speculation about the program in question. I'm am from Iowa State, not one of the ones you all are speculating about so I figured I could weigh in. We've got an impressive slate of candidates this year and we're making calls next week to those people once our administrative to-do list is finalized. So hang tight. I'm sure most programs are making sure they have all the TAships and what not approved before making calls. We are building a sweet little program here in Ames, and if you have questions about it for next year's round, holler. Our definition of "environmental" is broad and inclusive. I'm not a nature writer, but I am "an environmental" writer by our definition.
I suppose my first post was to assure you all that there is no predictable career path for this life. And it sure does suck when things don't work out. I feel for you all. But I'm dead serious when I say you can do this without an MFA. Don't wait for a green light from an academic program!
Re. workshop. I'm very collegial and respectful in workshop. I read everyone's stories twice (sometimes, three times) and make lots of comments on the margins. I may hate your work, but I will never express this openly because I am aware that writers are very sensitive. Besides, the point of workshop is to help each other improve our craft and negative vibes certainly don't help. So, I usually put on my best smiley face and give everyone "Attaboy!" pats on the back. I think this is important.
@ Cate & WanderingTree: Charles Bernstein, Kenneth Goldsmith and Bob Perelman are at U Penn. Not to mention some other wonderful poetics faculty and general theory faculty. Great place for a poetics PhD (among many other things, I’d suppose).
Also, Congrats to everyone. Especially the Michigan, Iowa and UMass people.
@Dean B -- Thank you for your disclosure. I thought about applying to Iowa State but I just could not wrap my head around the "environmental" label. A flaw on my part, no doubt.
I'm the same way. I'm exceptionally thorough in workshop, and supportive. The overwhelming majority, however, were not the same. I think you owe it to yourself and your workshopping peers to do the best job you can on the work of others, but most of the people I workshopped with didn't have the same philosophy.
Hey Trilbe can I make a request - I'd love to read your fiction manuscript - only if it's okay with you please email me at bshveta@hotmail.com....And I do completely understand if you don't wish too..congrats once more super girl!!!
To weigh in on workshops--I really think the leader sets the tone. If the leader encourages unnecessarily harsh critique (particularly if they are known/respected) I've found that other writers follow suit, sadly. It's a real skill to critique in such a way that opens up creativity--a skill many writing "teachers" may not have.
Just to be contrary, I will offer an opinion from the other side. My final undergraduate workshop was led by a writer with unflagging gentility. She was so nice I'm not sure she was entirely helpful to students who needed a heavy guiding hand. And when certain people got out of control in class with their negativity (often wrapped in smarmy "no offense, but" comments), she did not do much to rebuke them. And one of my former friends who turned out to be a d-bag even wrote "Can you even speak English?" on one person's work, which of course, the instructor cannot control.
One of my teaching statements even mentions that I think the ideal creative writing instructor is one who is gentle but firm. I absolutely adore my last workshop instructor, but I'm not sure she had the firm part down.
If you e-mail me at sethabramson[@]yahoo.com I'll add Iowa State to the funding and selectivity rankings published online. If Iowa State is fully-funded now it would go into the funding rankings, from the get-go, as a top 40 national program in that category. The rankings are viewed by between 10,000 to 40,000 visitors/week (depending on the time of year), and programs appearing high in the rankings have generally seen between a 33% and 300% increase in apps since last year -- so people are definitely paying attention. I'd love to feature Iowa State also. I wrote the recent rankings published by Poets & Writers, so hopefully this request to e-mail me won't seem totally out of the blue. I'm regularly in contact with MFA directors and do my best to feature programs that are fully-funded. I'm thrilled -- more than you can know! -- to find out another fully-funded program has been added to the national ranks. My goal as an education activist is to promote fully-funded programs to the best of my ability.
Agreed that firm is essential and useful. My favorite workshops are led by instructors who insist that the work is critiqued based solely on what's on the page, the language--tone, POV, character, etc. I've just sat through some workshops where it's clear the instructor prefers a certain kind of work, and isn't able to take other work for what it is instead of what it isn't. This usually leads to the sort of environment where it seems like some pieces are right and others are wrong. I think it's a limited view, and one that benefits nobody. I guess, for me, the debate is not so much whether they're naughty or nice, but whether they can see what's on the page and help it become fuller/deeper/richer material, and not just through the lens of what their particular biases are.
I know Woon's watching, so I'll be both brief and conversational. The theory is that "popularity" is not an empty term -- among well-researched communities of MFA applicants such as this one, a program becomes "popular" primarily as a result of the research applicants do -- into funding, into faculty, into location, into student-to-teacher ratio, into graduate placement and success, and so on. Things applicants care about (rightly) and MFA faculties do not (ironically, it is faculties, not applicants, who are much more likely to judge programs by some amorphous notion of "prestige," unanchored by objective data like funding and cost of living &c &c). I also am certain (though I know Trilbe disagrees, and that's okay) that greater popularity leads to greater selectivity and consequently a stronger cohort -- and every interaction I've had with MFA directors has included this sort of admission (i.e., "this is our largest applicant pool ever, and as a result our strongest group of writers ever"). So when you see a program is "popular," a) there's a good reason for it, if the data is sizable enough to really establish a trend, and b) there are observable consequences to it, including what I consider the #1 most important feature of a program (after location and funding): cohort quality. We learn as much or more from our fellow writers, as time goes on, as we do from faculty -- assuming a strong cohort. Reasonable and good people can disagree on all of this, though. Just wanted to give the two-minute version of my answer to your (implicit) question.
Be well, S. P.S. Again speaking only conversationally, I know that the rankings have actually had their most beneficial effect on the programs you're concerned about -- "low"-ranked fully-funded programs are seeing the largest increases in applicants in their existence, and consequently are moving up in the rankings like rockets. Meanwhile, non-funded "low"-ranked programs are now in a position to go to their university bursars and say, "Look what happened to McNeese State! They're #52 nationally now. Or Wyoming. Or Western Michigan. &c &c. If we fund our students we will skyrocket in applicants' esteem!" And the cool thing is: They're right. Watch what happens in 2011 once we put Iowa State "on the board" as fully-funded. If they thought a 100% increase in apps was big, they ain't seen nothing yet! And I'm totally thrilled by that. They deserve it. Every program that respects their students as artists -- and therefore funds them -- deserves what the ranking system offers them. Attention, attention, attention.
Hi, sorry for confusing you, I did post a response before the one I did yesterday but I realized it showed my real name, when I wanted the "honeybadger" name, hehe...
honey badgers are my favorite animals, if you can tell. And thank you for the congratulations.
@Adam
Neighbor, let's get together and celebrate once you get good news back!!
@ everyone
Thank you all and keeping my fingers crossed for everyone!
I probably said this already-- had too much wine last night ;) --but of the five workshops I've had (not including two forms classes that were run much like workshops) there was only one really disruptive person. This was an undergrad fiction workshop, and the guy was just a bully and a know-it-all. The teacher was very kind but couldn't really control him. By the end of the class, we all just rolled our eyes and started reading something interesting whenever he opened his mouth. But he wasn't really mean, just a boor. I think he's a successful Hollywood producer now (no joking).
There were one or two other people I didn't really get along with, but we were able to keep everything civil. Everyone else was pretty cool. It may just be coincidental, but the nicest/coolest/most generous people in the workshops ended up becoming the most successful writers (and also my closest friends from school). That was both for grad and undergrad CW courses.
This was around 20 years ago, so I hope things haven't changed too much. Certainly, as the discipline has gained broader appeal and recognition over the past two decades, it may have gained more competitive or Type-A students. I hope not. I'd be really bummed if I went back for an MFA and (unlike the friendly, driven, helpful folks in MA program) the other students were jerks. Ugh.
When you're an MFA geek like me, if there's one thing you get off on it's the discovery that another MFA program has gone fully-funded (the primary aim of the rankings is for all MFA programs to be fully-funded for all admittees within the next 25 years [see here for more details]).
According to a recent advertisement in AWP's The Writer's Chronicle, the University of South Carolina has joined the ranks (along with Iowa State University!) of fully-funded programs. If anyone can confirm this for me through voluntary disclosures from the program (a critical aspect of the rankings' transparency-promoting methodology) I'd really appreciate it -- as the USC website hasn't been updated yet -- but I'm going to add USC provisionally to the funding rankings as fully-funded (with an asterisk).
And Iowa State will go in as fully-funded but without data (unless/until I hear from Dean; fingers crossed!).
It seems odd that both Sarah Lawrence and Hunter are now outside of the top 50. Wow! It's weird that there are such large changes in the rankings from even a year ago...hmmm...
@Seth, Let me say that I'm very grateful for all the work you've done and the information you‘ve compiled made it easier for me to make what I hope were intelligent decisions in the application process.
However, I'd like some clarification about the rankings:
I've read your article in Poets where you explain the rationale behind the rankings, but I'm still confused as to how you can possibly protect against fraud in the voting. There is nothing that can stop people from voting under multiple accounts in multiple locations, no?
Don't you think that this could be a major problem as the schools themselves could attempt to influence the rankings?
You wrote before that we could disagree about the ranking system, but what defense are you providing of peoeple voting multiple times?
NYU is actually a fascinating case, applicant pool-wise. Their apps tend to fluctuate wildly from year to year, as low as 650 apps (within the past five years) to as high as 950 (also within the last five years). But those numbers are not from 2010. I think the rankings allow a mathematical guess-timate of NYU's apps, a system I've used with some success before. Suffice to say that a good educated guess would be that NYU is presently somewhere between 600 and 750 total apps, with a yield of between 60% and 75%. Hope this helps,
Congratulations, Dry Leaves!! I literally just walked back into the house after checking the mail. I still haven't heard one peep from the NWP at Iowa. The longer I wait the harder it gets. But, hey, I'm happy for you. That's great!!!
I'd mentioned in the original introduction to the 2011 rankings (which I've since removed because I think it was over-complicated, and pleasing only to a stats-geek like me), that I anticipated two or three of the four new-comers to the Top 50 would drop out (I believe I predicted it would be Portland State and Memphis), to be replaced by two or three of the "bubbling under" schools that had been in last year's Top 50. That prediction has proven prescient -- in the current data (which I haven't uploaded to TSE yet) Hunter is already back within the Top 50. And I believe it will stay there (for many reasons, not least of which is that NYC-area publicly-posted application lists tends to increase toward the end of the application period, as those who didn't want or need a funding-centric MFA-applicant community come online for the first time and begin to share their NYC-area application lists). As to Sarah Lawrence, I think it's important to remember that it's a very, very different program from Hunter -- much, much more expensive; not as well located within the city (Yonkers as opposed to Manhattan); and it's stronger in the less-popular major genre, poetry, whereas Hunter (due largely to Peter Carey, who's amazing and one of my favorite authors) is stronger in fiction. So Hunter (and, for similar reasons, Brooklyn), will always have a major edge over Sarah Lawrence College. Based on cost and some other factors, the school most comparable to SLC is Columbia -- and the latter program's fortunes among applicants these past few years is of course well-documented.
To answer your second question -- and it's a great question -- is slightly more complicated, and would take much more space. But I'll give you just a few of the bullet-points of the answer:
* The poll is now too big to punk. To even temporarily move a single program more than 10 spots (out of roughly 145 national programs, or 200 if you count low-res) would take a massive campaign of several weeks. And even a 10-spot increase for a single program, however temporary, would not be statistically significant from the perspective of poll-watchers (that's literally only a 6.99% movement in a school's ranking).
* Cross-checks help ensure accuracy. I have five years of data now to compare -- there is no major movement in the rankings that isn't immediately observable and subject to analysis and explanation. If a program is moving in the rankings beyond any statistical likelihood I can spot it in real-time -- making punking the poll in the way referenced above literally impossible. If you knew what it would take to move, say, University of New Mexico even ten spots in the five-year overall rankings, you would see that I'd spot any such campaign within 48 hours. It would stick out like a sore thumb -- laughably so. Plus, the campaign would have to be perpetual (i.e. years in duration): any even momentary lapse in such a campaign would lead to the program falling back down in the rankings.
@ Kerry Headley - Supposedly, Iowa NWP has sent out its rejection/waitlist letters so if not today, Kerry, hopefully Monday. Thanks for the props. I'm numb with excitement, though in reality a waitlist is a waitlist and not a sure bet. It's a way of perpetuating the anxiety!
Motive. I have many years of experience working with service-oriented jobs -- I spent 7 years representing more than 2,000 accused criminals in District and Superior Courts. This will sound sappy, but what I learned was that people are actually infinitely more trustworthy than we would think (or the media would have us believe). I think I mentioned recently that I've only had to retract one claim of MFA admission in four years of collecting application response dates. That's one false claim of admission over the course of hundreds and hundreds of public declarations. This is a community where everyone benefits from accurate information and where there's really no benefit to being a scoundrel -- get found out, and not only do you hurt your chances of MFA admission (as, I'm sorry to say, I know for a fact MFA adcoms do read this blog), you hurt your future social prospects (not just because your future cohort will be skeptical of you, but because any program whose adherents are caught punking the poll goes on a one-year probation from the rankings, which immediately makes the culprit the least-popular person in the program). Not to mention that you render the data you yourself wish to rely upon less accurate -- there's a social contract in place here, because many of us need this data to some degree or another at some point in the application and matriculation process. The point is, history shows the rate of fraud in this community is almost zero -- just as (and you may find this incredible) I almost never had my trust betrayed even by individuals accused of robbery, rape, and murder. Sure, sometimes there was deceit, but it was rare and when it happened it was owned up to eventually. I'd expect no less -- and have found no less -- in this community. There's more I could say on this but I think you get my point.
Universal data access. I have access to every single application list at the drop of a hat -- it's on my home server. So if I have any doubts about a particular school's movement I can (with the touch of a button) review every single application list that includes that school. I can check Blogger profiles to see if the school consistently gets votes from recently-created profiles -- yes, I've done this kind of investigation. I can check to see whether the votes can from a sock-puppet (a one-time poster) or someone who has been participating in the community for weeks -- and yes, I've done this kind of investigation too. I can, and do, analyze application trends to see which admixtures of programs in a single application list are exceedingly strange (as, keep in mind, if you wanted to move a single school up, not only would you have to not vote for any school it was immediately/proximately competing with, not only would you need a team, not only would you need weeks, you'd also have to hope that I was literally in a coma because that's what it would take for me not to see it). Not to mention that, among all the cross-checks I mentioned here and before, there are others -- e.g., I can cross-check with funding data, selectivity data, and applicant pool data (where publicly available from programs) to see whether a given school's ascension has any impetus behind it in the hard numbers.
Hi, I am new to this website. Trying to get familiar with it, but so far haven't found any posts about the following schools. Wondering if anyone has heard anything at all from any of these schools, and if so, by email? by postal mail? etc... (In the process of moving and not sure I'm getting all my postal mail.) Thanks.
Michigan Virginia Tech WVU Johns Hopkins Southern Illinois (SIUC) LSU
@ Tisk: Being a poetry wait-list at Minnesota, I’d say there is still a chance that you might make the wait-list early next week. I could be wrong, though.
The response database has the first fiction acceptance listed on the 18th. I didn’t receive my spot on the wait-list (via e-mail) until a couple of days after the original poetry acceptances went out (via phone).
Just heard from CSU. In for fiction. Ridiculously happy! It was such a kind phonecall, I'm a little blown away! I sincerely, sincerely wish everyone the same happiness. This is my 2nd year applying to programs after a 0-7 run last year and it's turned out, so far, even better than I could hope for. Really, the best of luck to everyone! And if it doesn't work out this year for some of you, trust me when I say, a year CAN make all the difference!
The Outlier Fallacy. It's important to distinguish between data in the aggregate and an individual data-point (among hundreds). The possibility of a single data-point -- a single vote -- being inauthentic is much higher than the possibility of the data in the aggregate (over many years and many voters) being inaccurate. One can't extrapolate the ease of a single false vote with the overall outcome of an election -- remember that the Republicans do this in claiming that if a single dead person "voted" in Ohio in 2008 Obama is an illegitimate President. Well, no. You see my point. But remember, too, that not only is all the data public but also it all coheres -- right now the statistical correlation between last year's top 50 and this year's is an astounding 92%. And within two weeks I am expecting that it will rise to 96%. There's so much more to say on this point, but I want to limit myself to three uses of the word "continued" at the bottom of a post. Suffice to say, for now, that we should keep in mind that even if one school someone got punked it wouldn't fundamentally affect the accuracy of the other 99.3% (142/143) of the poll. So even a punking still makes the data infinitely more valuable than not having any data.
Poll Structure. As I've often said of the rankings, small differences in ranking are meaningless -- the substantive difference between a program ranked #25 and #35 is almost meaningless. It's that way in all rankings (not just this one). So all the hypotheticals above about someone somewhere somehow moving a program -- temporarily -- ten spots forward also presumes an uneducated poll-reading populace who thinks such a move particularly significant. It's not. To make a major dent in the rankings you'd need to move a program 20+ spots over a period of at least two years. That is almost a full-time job, I assure you. But we also need to keep in mind that, in the field of MFA programs, "prestige" only comes into play with the top 10 or so programs anyway -- and these are far and away the hardest programs to punk (I'm willing to say, actually, that given the safeguards in place it's impossible to do without getting caught). Beyond that, what has one actually accomplished in advancing a program from, say, #60 to #40? If it's an unfunded program, no one's going to suddenly apply there because of the rankings -- that's financial suicide. If it's a funded program, hey, it was headed on up the rankings anyway. Beyond which (and I know this is bizarre) but to the extent all rankings are self-fulfilling prophecies to a degree even a punked poll self-corrects; consider, if U.S. News & World Report came out tomorrow and said University of Wisconsin-Madison was now the #1 university in America for undergrad, not Harvard or Princeton, don't you think that its cohort the following year would take an enormous leap in objective quality? Thereby lessening the "falseness" of the punking because the data actually, literally changes to accommodate and render "accurate" the punking. It's an odd aspect of rankings.
This is literally the tip of the iceberg in answering your question, but I've spent four years working on this issue so I could go on way, way, way past anyone else's interest (and probably already have).
Funding is very slim. I don't know the complete story, but it sounds like they had to cut back on all TAships this year. Next week I'll be talking with more admins and current students, because there are scholarships available. Before this whole process, I promised myself I wouldn't launch further into debt, but if this is my only acceptance, I would absolutely love to be within the program there. There poetry faculty is stunning, and very supportive, so we'll see what happens. I'll post any news on this blog. keep the wheels turning!
@ Daffron, I think there have been 3 (maybe 4) IWW acceptances posted on this site. Arna Bontemps (the second to confirm an offer) said that the notification process will take several days. How she knows this, I don't know, but until someone else says otherwise, I'm hoping more calls will begin Monday. Unlike a few other schools, IA does NOT seem to be making any noise over the weekend.
If I can pop in once more to give a hypothetical. Say you wanted to move UNM ten spots on the five-year overall rankings, from #59 to #49. First, keep in mind such a movement would not be statistically significant, would not lead to significant increases in esteem or applications for UNM, and would not be an abiding amendment of the rankings unless it was maintained for 2+ years (and which would leave the ranking still 99.3% accurate). Here's what you'd have to do: In a 24-hour period you'd have to create 17 fake Blogger accounts and post 17 consecutive application lists with "New Mexico" on them while ten other programs received zero votes (because to pass these other programs they'd have to literally be standing still, so you'd have to move quickly). So there'd have to be no votes whatsoever for Virginia Tech, Maryland, VCU, Rutgers, American, &c &c over that time.
Based on historical trends, I would know that such lists were inauthentic after four -- yes, four -- consecutive references to New Mexico. Four, not seventeen -- because even four consecutive references would be a significant statistical anomaly based on five years of research.
The funny thing is, if by some sudden bout of brain damage I didn't stop the counting after four fraudulent lists, but happily and stupidly allowed five, ten, fifteen, seventeen (over a 24-hour period!), what would have been accomplished? For a period of about five minutes New Mexico would be #49, not #59 (a paltry 6.99% increase in its ranking). A meaningless change. And seconds later the program would begin to drop again, until after about 30 days it was roughly where it started, perhaps four or five spots ahead. After sixty days, the punk would be more or less entirely dead. Meaning: to maintain the punk the user would have to create not merely a handful but literally dozens of Blogger accounts and continue the punk for a period of many months. Keeping in mind that (back in reality) I would have put the drop on the whole operation within the first 24 hours.
Given that this is a community in which only one admissions response claim has been retracted in four years -- a fraud rate of something like 0.01% -- and that that single fraud took only sixty seconds to execute, how likely is it that an individual in this community would devote weeks and weeks of their lives to punk a poll which, if they were caught doing so, would make their desired program a black sheep and ineligible for the rankings for 1 year (thereby making the program administration livid with that person), and which, even if successful, would have no substantive impact or meaning whatsoever -- either for New Mexico (a 6.99% increase from a non-prestige position to a non-prestige position!) or anyone else (a poll that remained 99.3% authentic?). Hopefully this synthesizes some of the major issues that would arise in actually playing out your hypothetical in real-time.
As I think I've said before, on the whole, I believe that your driving ideas and missions are exactly right. Openness and transparency make a perfect amount of sense and the work you've done aggregating data is 100% commendable. As someone who was contemplating MFA application long before 2007, I say this with utter sincerity: the MFA community has benefited enormously from your work.
My two problems really, are (a) I am deeply suspicious of the idea of recommended 12 applications per person, and (b) I question the validity of using an opt-in poll as an indicator of, well, anything.
I accept the validity of your spread application method's underlying thinking, but I reject entirely the idea that it benefits the writer. This isn't to argue that Hypothetical Program A (which ranks high) is better than Hypothetical Program B (which ranks less), but rather that the experience within programs are so different that I do not see how someone can be well served (or well researched) if they're applying to places with vastly different faculties and emphases. I also don't think an environment should be fostered in which writers are implicitly taught that if they just wish hard enough, there's going to be a place for them somewhere. It strikes me as potentially damaging to craft. Seriously. (This says nothing of the long term implications of having everyone apply everywhere.)
As for the poll, I think it's bunk. When you're relying entirely on Internet-based voluntary polling, the numbers you get will have such a wide range of biases as to make them useless. I don't think you correct, or can even anticipate nor correct, these biases. Can you say with certainty that you're getting an accurate spread of fiction to poetry applications?
I certainly can't. That's because I don't know a thing about statistics or polling. The commenter above makes a good point-- the most useful data up is the selectivity data, as it's based on what we hope are roughly accurate hard numbers.
But, in the end, the real problem is that you come on, as woon said, like an atomic bomb. Your behavior with the poster in the Brown MFA forums was appalling. Your endless mea culpas don't excuse you. Whatever your background, you are not mystically freed from a modicum of decorum and civility.
Particularly distressing in its implications was your willingness to accept half of that person's information (the number of applicants) while completely rejecting their information about the number of poetry-vs-fiction applicants. This makes no logical sense; either you believe the person has the correct data or you don't. You can't divide and conquer and take what you want because it reinforces your own assumptions. (Well, of course you can. It's The Internet.)
I find your manner on these forums to be akin to bullying. I wish you wouldn't, because I think it harms short term conversation (in that most people don't have the time/the inclination/the willingness/the courage? to argue with someone who always responds to the slightest provocation with a 2000 word diatribe of outrageous rhetoric) and long term reporting. Do you honestly think Brown students of future years are going to be willing to pass info in the way they have been doing on the Speakeasy for the last 4 years running? Why would anyone bother with the example you've set?
So, in summary: good work, please stop fighting and then expecting things to OK because you apologize afterwards. Apologies are meaningless unless they're backed up by action.
Wow, that's great news about University of SC. I applied there, assuming they were only partly funded (if you got lucky enough to get a TAship), so that's really exciting to know they are indeed fully funded. Thanks for the info!
Looking at that NYU funding information makes me want to consider applying there next year if I need to reapply. The only thing that kept me from their program was the funding, which I had sort of assumed didn't exist. Thanks for the link!
I'm sanguine about whether the rankings help writers because I know they do -- it's not speculation. I have hundreds of e-mails confirming it, and only an occasional post (and zero e-mails) from individuals who have problems with the rankings (which, invariably, they admit to having used anyway and benefited from; usually, their concern is that others aren't as intelligent as they are and will not use the rankings and data as wisely as they do). I also have e-mails from MFA brass telling me how the rankings helped them get more money for their kids. My point is, I don't want to argue on this because it'd be like you telling me the color of my pajamas.
As to whether rankings can predict one's experiences -- they can't and don't claim to. Nothing can -- we like programs based on the people we meet, or how we gel with the locale, and no ranking can predict that. The purpose of rankings is to quantify what we can quantify and acknowledge that all else is a crap-shoot. Anyone who thinks that eschewing rankings allows a prediction of they'll be happy is -- well, they're welcome to think so. If one has the money to spend a month in a locale and meet all the people one will study with, yes, ignore the rankings (at least the overall; the others would still be vital). But no one has that time or money.
A lot of what you're saying I agree with; you're kind of putting words into my mouth in suggesting I don't. I've said more frequently than you or than anyone -- in fora where it was unpopular -- that one shouldn't rush to do an MFA, an MFA isn't helpful for everyone, the MFA doesn't "get" one anything. So you're ascribing views to me I don't have and then asking me to be courteous about it; just so, you've suggested that I'm a greedy "peddler" of nonsense when I'm voluntarily living in near poverty and watching attorneys with similar experience to mine making 45 times what I make. Do you know how angry, in light of that fact, your baseless allegations make me? How angry would they make you? That I'm as civil as I'm being now, especially with someone I don't know and owe nothing to -- who's using the fruits of my labor and then criticizing me for them -- is a choice I make. But no, it's not easy.
As to my demeanor: In some instances I've over-stepped and I've apologized. In some instances I've been unfairly maligned (to have said 3 times to that Brown poster that I wasn't questioning his/her motives, while meanwhile -- unbeknownst to you -- s/he was sending me obscene private messages, well, I don't agree with your characterization of what happened there). I was above-board about what my concerns were and what I was/wasn't calling into question. Your behavior towards me is what's been appalling -- using my data while publicly disparaging it and saying that I'm trying to make a lucrative "cottage industry" of BS -- but that doesn't justify me getting cross with you the way I did, questioning your app decisions, which is why I apologized and sincerely. But there's a third reality, which is that you just haven't walked even an inch in my shoes. This is a 5-year project with no staff, budget, or profit to speak of, and no concrete thanks in the offing except the occasional kind words of people I'll never meet. Doing this takes time away from my poetry and certainly (!) hasn't led a single poster of the 25,000+ who've frequented this board in the past few years to buy my book of poetry. Not that I thought it would or expected it would, simply to say that this takes away from my writing time. I do it because I love doing it and know that I'm helping future writers get funding for their degrees. When (say) an anonymous person without the courage to provide their name -- as I've done since I came online in 2004 -- starts offering confidential Brown admissions data with no sourcing, gets testy when the data is noted to be (as it was) highly dubious in terms of historical trends, sends me obscene private messages, and (above all) simultaneously claims to a) not care about the MFA-research project, and b) know more about MFA data than I do, what's an appropriate response in that situation?
Likewise, what's the appropriate way for me to treat you? You have no accountability for anything you say here, as you refuse to use your real name. In my field, the law, that is actually the epitome of cowardice -- it is precisely the sort of unwillingness to stand up and be counted that is anathema to what being a public defender (as I was) means. Should I show you respect when you've shown us zero respect here by operating from behind the cloak of anonymity? When you've impugned my motives from behind that cloak without knowing me? Can you explain what social duty I owe you, as someone who put himself on the line for years as an attorney in front of juries -- and is typically addressed as Attorney Abramson -- and is now ridiculed by someone one step above a spam-bot? You need to consider your behavior and your presumption before you presume to judge me. I apologized to you earlier and I meant it -- it's classless to use that as an opening for attack.
@Honeybadger Thanks for the follow up clarification. One never knows on the web - so, that the posts were so similar caught me and was cause for suspect. yadayadayada
@Everyone involved with Minnesota and Michigan in fiction,
As far as I can see, we've not heard of any notices from Minnesota waitlisting fictioneers, yes???
And Re: Michigan, ditto. Plus, there remains some confusion around what the person on the phone meant by "done with calls" - was it for the day, or for the acceptances, with waitlisters in the wings for Monday? It's plausible to me that it is both.
Re: Iowa State and others comments on not applying because of not understanding if they fit in with their "environmental" aspect, me too. If I'm doing this next year, I'll explore that more. That was swell of Dean B. to come here with his encouragement and support.
RE: Potter, the lovely labrador at my side, he is still pretty low key, not his chipper Labrador self. Cross your fingers and toes - 'cause he is the epitome of sweetness. Hard to bear his being sick. Thanks.
P.S. Re: the Brown numbers. The Brown data cross-checked with other info, that's one of the two reasons I took the total app data (also, that was the only data the OP confirmed without hesitation as fact; I pointed out in a P&W post the vacillation on the other information, noting, in effect, the likelihood it was mere hearsay). My standard in updating TSE is simple: Is it more likely than not that this data is more accurate than what I had previously? If it is, I add it, and that was the case here. As to your broader concerns about the rankings, they've been answered by me dozens of times since 2007 on this site -- if you're genuinely interested in a response I suggest you peruse the archives. But repeating myself for the hundredth time because someone hasn't read this site for very long, particularly when that someone won't do me the courtesy of identifying who they are -- and who repeatedly slanders me from a place of facelessness -- is not high on my list of priorities, and I don't think that's a particularly odd or standoffish view to take. It's just sound reasoning and basic fairness to self.
Okay, it's nearly 5 here in the Midwest. I've been distracting myself with a marathon viewing of Weeds this afternoon; time to add a glass of wine to the mix.
Cheers to all who had good news this week, bottoms up to the rest!
You'd have to check with Chris at DH on that, I'm not running the admissions response data-sheet anymore. If I'm not mistaken, though, the OP's claims of admission to Iowa and Michigan coincided with others making similar claims? My thinking, I suppose, is that either the OP is authentic -- however, um, strange -- or else s/he is simply piggy-backing on authentic notifications, in which case there's no harm to the data beyond the annoyance of someone being kind of a douchebag.
And I don't mean the way I'm a douchebag, I mean a different way.
Somewhere, several hundred posts back, I believe one person posted a Minnesota waitlist status for fiction. I think his name was... Andrew? That might be on a different blog or thread or something, though.
(All in good fun, btw... nothing that is being said here about the rankings hasn't been said before/elsewhere better... everyone chill out and wait to hear from your schools, it is enough stress in and of itself.... )
1. I love Kenneth Goldsmith. I've written poems about him which could very well be considered "uncreative writing," though mostly unintentionally, unfortunately. Ha.
2. I think we all need to put on some happy pants for a while. My smoke alarms keep going off for no reason (their favorite time to sound is in the middle of the night) so if I can maintain a decent attitude, I imagine many of you can also.
3. I would argue that Penn is the sporty ivy, at least with the more mainstream sports.
As a Dartmouth guy I'll concede that Penn is the "sporty" Ivy -- up in Hanover we thought of ourselves as the "outdoorsy" Ivy. A slight but (to us) important distinction. S.
@burlaper - I used to have the same problem with my smoke alarms and finally had to change them out.
You might be right about Penn. I always thought of Dartmouth as the sporty, but maybe it's more the frat/jock ivy. I think Penn is the state school of the ivies, not meant pejoratively...and I always forget its any ivy league school until someone brings it up.
@Seth - I don't know why you keep answering the trolls. It is informative, but you've posted most of the information, here or on TSE, for those who feel strongly enough about your methodology, agenda, whatever, to do their own research.
Thanks. So, I think it's safe to say, aside from "It ain't over 'til it's over" is that these two schools have yet to even complete their initial notification. Michigan, for sure, and Minnesota, probably. (in fiction.)
and the happy pants suggestion is well taken. The above mentioned is enough that I can put this aside 'til Monday. And even then, I aim for an even keel. I, at least, know of some unknowns. And, surely as Donald Rumsfeld, there are unknowns that are unknown. (which is not just cause for war, BTW. But that's old old old hat.)
I've had the verbal runs -- a.k.a. verbal diarrhea -- for about 32 years now. Ever since I made my first opening argument, when I was 2 y.o. I love love love verbal disputation (hence the whole law school thing). I hesitate to admit it, because it's, you know, pathetic and everything, but I actually enjoy the verbal sparring. It keeps the mind agile (in theory).
@Seth - Got it. As long as you're enjoying yourself.
As I get old(er), I find that I just can't be bothered to argue anymore unless the adversary is really challenging my beliefs. Then again, I've always been lazy. ;)
PS @ frankish: This may sound ridiculous, but it's also worth mentioning that much of my poetics is based on the rhythm and sound of classical rhetoric -- so when I dispute with naysayers here I'm actually working on my poetics as well as trying to clear things up re: the rankings.
@ Meredith
Well met! Class of '98, veteran of Russell Rage, the Gold Coast, the Choates, the oft-regretted trip to Full Fare (which I believe they closed down for health reasons), editorials for the Daily D, horse-riding lessons for the gym component (what the hell was I thinking??), the Squash Club, EBAs, the "swim test," DOC orientation... fond memories. Hope you enjoyed it there also. I go back every once in a while to go to Leede and see the boys get cremated in basketball -- I was a WDCR disc jockey, talk-show host, and color commentator for men's basketball for years. Err -- this is making me sound like an enormous tool, isn't it... well...
Seth, Since you seem to be active at this moment, Can I ask you if you have any thoughts about Florida Atlantic and why the hell nobody seems to apply there? Or are they, they're just not active online? Do you know how many students they admit or how big the class is? Do you know anything about their selectivity? Or anything else?
wooo!!! I myself am a veteran of the Choates (little 3rd floor), THE LODGE (lol... they tore it down the year after I moved out), Gold Coast, and one of the new dorms that's now next to the med school (yuck). I was ARts editor at the D for two years, was in Film society, MOntage, Friday Night Rock... a lot of these things began after your time, I now realize. CW profs - Gary Lenhart, C. Tudish (my semi-mom), Bill Phillips... and Cleopatra Mathis!!! I bet you had her...? she's the resident legend
my PE's included cross country skiing (during which I got lost on the golf course for a few hours... Yeah, I'm from Florida, what can I say?), and I took the swim test a week before graduation. Not kidding. (I missed my DOC trip b/c I was stuck in Hurricane Frances of Aug. 2004... that bitch). I miss Hanover wholesomeness/heavy-drinking, for realz. I've been all nostalgic recently, esp. now with the Olympics... a Big Green skiier won a bronze yesterday! woo!
Anyway, it brings me great joy to know you're a veteran of the "drunk Ivy" too. It makes me think there's some sort of luck on my side during this MFA app hell. (I applied to 14 schools... so far just a UT rejection and 3 assumed rejections from Vandy, Iowa, and Michigan... and now maybe UNCW?! Kill me now). But this blog helped me a lot when I was deciding where to apply, how to apply, etc. So thank yooooou!
Big Green hug and/or high-five (I'll give you a high-five if you think a hug would be creepy), Meredith Fraser '08 (!)
Concerning your smoke alarms, they may need to be dusted. Here in Arizona, we have nothing if not abundant dust, and every now and again it's necessary to take down the smoke detectors, remove their covers, and attack the dust with a can of compressed air.
The little gizmos work via a gap between a low-grade radioisotope (typically Americium) and a detector. Smoke in air is colloidal, and the particulates in smoke block the alpha particles from registering with the detector. Dust interacts with air very similarly, hence the false alarms.
That's probably too much information, but now everybody understands why I like to write poems involving science. =)
@Seth & @Meredith - Ha! Class of '02 and another Choates resident, here.
Dartmouth was largely a lucky accident for me. I didn't even want to visit or apply, but I was in the area with my mom on a college visit trip, and my dad made us go. I whined the whole way, because I wanted Brown first or Harvard second. I got in at both, but then the guide at Brown spent the entire tour making fun of my outfit, which did not leave me with a very good impression.
When we got to Dartmouth it was the only warm, sunny day of the entire trip, and the tour guide and I were wearing identical outfits. My mom sunned on the Green while I took the tour. Afterwards I came back and was like: "I don't know. It seemed awesome, but in the Fiske Guide it sounded so gross and fratty."
And suddenly the most beautiful boy I had ever seen walked up and handed me a tiny labrador puppy. "Do you want him?" he asked. "We can take dogs to class here."
So I wanted to remain relatively anonymous (first-name only), but I have to out myself, at least to Meredith Fraser '08. Hey! It's Jenna '08. From David Ehrlich's infamous freshmen seminar. Purple turtleneck, vegan apple cake, teenage mutant ninja turtles, oh my. To you other Dartmouth kids, I was a Choates resident, Brown 3rd floor. Also lived in Mid-Mass (Dr. Seuss's former room!) and Richardson with a beautiful view of Baker Tower. Cool that there are so many of us here!
I'm definitely rooting for Dartmouth at the Winter Olympics as if it were a country (yes to the outdoorsy reputation...we have our own skiway for goodness sake). Andrew Weibrecht '09 with the bronze last night, Ben Koons '08 briefly leading the 30K today. Their success allows me to forget my failure.
(Also, since I know you're an incredible writer and a generally awesome person, Meredith, somehow my own rejections seem more reasonable)
@Ryan - I think Univ. of Miami takes a while to upload confirmation for documents submitted. I had a letter of rec. not 'post' for a few weeks after it was sent. Maybe you can call to confirm....
Wow, I was away from home/a computer for the past twenty-four hours, and I’ve missed a lot on here, it seems. On the notification/acceptance front, it looks like not much has happened in the past day, but congratulations to everyone who was accepted on Friday, it seemed like there were quite a few of you!
Re: MFA Blues
In skimming through the past two hundred or so comments, I noticed a nice message from one of the faculty members at Iowa State (Dean B, I think it was), essentially encouraging all of us to continue writing, reading, etc. regardless of whether or not we are accepted into an MFA program. A few of you have made similar comments over the past few weeks, and I guess I just want to say thank you. Truly, I mean that.
Throughout this whole process I’ve tried to remain sort of emotionally guarded/unattached, because, like all of you, I know how competitive and really just crazy these programs are, and I know that in all likelihood I will not get accepted anywhere this time around. I know that. But sometimes it is hard, you know, when you have spent so much time applying to places and, more than that, when you have hoped for something so badly.
I was having one of those horribly depressing days on Friday (after calling UMass and receiving notice of my official rejection from their program)…literally just broke down and cried, called my mom, cried some more, took a quiz (which, needless to say, did not seem to go all that well), and cried some more. Yeahhh, not such a good day. And it is not even the rejection that stings so much (because, let’s face it, rejection is something that all writers have to get used to)—but more just the realization that I will probably NOT be starting at an MFA program in the fall, will not have the chance to become part of the amazing writing community/environment that I have dreamt of for the past six months, and will not be dedicating the next three years of my life solely to writing. And that is disappointing—so, very disappointing—because it is something that I was really looking forward to.
However, as I think all of us know and many of you have pointed out, you do not need to go to an MFA program to write. That is one of the wonderful things about our craft—that we can do it anywhere, with any/all types of backgrounds, at any walk of life. If you want to be a doctor, you have to go to med school. To be a lawyer, you have to go to law school. But to be a writer, all you have to do is write! And one of the surest ways to improve as a writer is to read more, write more, and just live more, all of which can be done (arguably, to an even greater extent) outside of the context of an MFA program.
Obviously the MFA does provide incredible opportunities for writers—I am certainly not saying that it doesn’t—but it is not the only opportunity out there that enables writers to perform and improve at their craft. So rejections from MFA programs, rather than dashing ones hopes of being a writer, should make him/her look to those other opportunities—joining a local writing group, submitting work to literary magazines, working at some random/amazing/horrible job that grants the writer time to write while providing him/her with unique life experiences that may serve as sources of inspiration down the road, etc.—as valuable alternatives to an MFA program (at least for the time being).
So that is my Plan B (which is increasingly looking like a Plan A...). If I do not get accepted into an MFA program, I will write. I will submit work to magazines and seriously get to work on the two novels I have going. I might move somewhere and start a random job (a craigslist posting for a professional tree-climber/trimmer in Oregon is looking particularly appealing at the moment; starting a bakery also sounds cool :P), and will probably apply to MFA programs sometime in the future, although not until I feel like I am really ready to get the most out of the experience (which, to be honest, I am not sure I am right now).
Alright, that is all. I’m sorry that this message was so long and possibly rambling, it just helps me a little to write this all down.
Good luck to all, and to those already accepted, congratulations again!
Sorry to everyone else for turning this into a Dartmouth forum.
@ Dartmouth Grads/ Seth
Seth, you worked with me to sort out my application list and I you helped me a lot. You brought my attention to a couple of well funded programs I wouldn't have known about otherwise. I'm in at Ohio and VT I give you a lot of the credit - wouldn't even have considered Columbus if you hadn't urged me to.
Jenna and Meredith, good to hear some fellow '08's are still writing - I really enjoyed our class's Creative Writing group. I assume you're both applying to MFA programs this year since you're on this blog. Best of luck to you.
I'm a Coloradan. I went to University of Colorado for undergrad, but my college boyfriend went to CSU, so I lived in "The Fort" (as locals call it) for 6 months after graduating (Spring '06). I'd be happy to answer any location questions. It's a lovely college town and a nice community in which to write and be inspired.
@Sarah Well said. Something I find helpful is reading or listening to interviews and conversations with established writers. There are so many well thought of writers who are featured in places like The Lannan Foundation's Readings & Conversations series - whose podcasts you can subscribe to off of iTunes or their own website. Mary Oliver, for instance, speaks of her many years waiting tables while practicing her writing. She purposefully took a job that didn't tax her mind a whole lot, so she could save her thinking energy, so to speak, for writing. (paraphrasing)
So, I'm with you. I still don't know if I'll get into a program this year, but I do know that I will continue to write. And I have much to write about.
I really must put a playlist together. My obstacle is that I've updated OS-X and the new version has really slowed down my iTunes. But maybe I'll get it done anywayzzz. (The Blues is my Business and Business is Good.) So, no worries about the long speech. So many of us are with you in what you've said, based on what I've read on these pages of late.
Be well. And of course, I hope to be reading other news from you and sharing other news for myself. (;
Seth I got to know about an 'MFA in Fiction' because I got an opportunity to study two semesters fiction writing at Harvard Extension as my husband was studying at HBS and thereafter my professors encouraged me to apply even though I'm back to my work and life India. I just want to thank you so much for creating this blog. And though I'm still waiting for responses from the Univ's - whatever the outcome I want you to know that your contribution is priceless. Thanks so much....
I did not go to Dartmouth, so we'll not have the chance to commune and clank champagne flutes. I just wanted to say, as I hope and assume so many others do, your hard work is invaluable to me. Also, I've been genuinely impressed by your cool, forgiving and diplomatic conduct on this and other fora.
I just caught up on the numbers debate (saga?) and became increasingly irritated by each post.
@RUDE NAYSAYER: It's both inappropriate and audacious to bust into this community and smear its moderator/founder/biggest cheerleader. If you have a personal distaste for Seth's methods or you've constructed some ill interpretation of his motives, buzz off!
Let's try working with a hypothetical: YOU, Animalistic, start a blog called - say - animalistic.blogspot.com where you begin to compile various data on...um...internet behavior vs. real world behavior. You compile this data for 5 years, consulting with the nation's best neuroscientists, psychoanalysts, communication experts, what-have-you. You garner thousands of interested readers who learn from and begin to use your respected data. You communicate with hundreds of people a day, debunking myths, updating spread sheets, cross-referencing, fact-checking and you do this for next to no money because you LOVE it and regard your research as a noble pursuit. Your work is so well-received that its published in a leading psychology journal. Then, one day, some stranger bounds into your online community, your BLOG and insists you don't know what you're talking about. They tell you that while they know "next to nothing about statistics", yours are nonsense. What's worse, its online! After doing so much thankless work, some little asshole is going to come in your dance space and try to tell you that you lack decorum when you've been slightly flustered by their misinformed, left field, juvenile assumptions.
Empathy is clearly harder for some to grasp than others.
@sarah: i agree, very well said. i could practically have written the first part of your post myself.
@franny: did you apply to any schools in colorado? i almost applied to CSU and then regretted not adding it to my list. anyway, if i do end up doing this again next year, i think one of the colorado schools will be on my list.
I did. I applied to both CSU and University of Colorado. It's been mum on both fronts, but I like both programs quite a bit. Are you a poet or fiction writer? I applied in poetry. I should mention, however, that I studied Political Science and Gender History at CU, not creative writing. I didn't really believe in my writing at age 18.
CU has put a significant amount of effort into improving their MFA. I hadn't considered applying until this year. Their recent hires are AWESOME. They just hired Noah Eli Gordon who is young, but incredibly prolific in his young career. Also, since I was an undergrad there, I am enamored of the campus and the environment. It's BEAUTIFUL. My boyfriend is a tenured philosopher at CU, so it would be lovely for us if I could stay here.
At CSU, I love Dan Beachy-Quick. It's a nice program and Ft. Collins is a nice place (though it's no Boulder).
I highly recommend both places. They are becoming better appreciated thanks, in part, to Seth's due attention to their funding and faculties. Where else did you apply??
Ack! Those eyes are smiling! It's gross how much I love dogs. I totally sympathize.
My dad and I had to put down a family dog (Great Dane - she came down with Bloat) last weekend and I'm still sick over it. I hated to see her in so much pain.
Well, not much of an update. He's on a bland diet - the contents of which sound fantastic if one is a dog: chicken, rice, chicken broth. Bland?? LOL
And a few medications.
The update is that he's just lying around, very lethargic for an ordinarily spry fella. If he's not better by Monday morning, he goes back in for them to check his labs.
@mostly swell: that is one cute puppers. i hope he is getting better!
@franny: oh, good luck to you! CU looked like such a wonderful program, too. and (sadly) i don't know much about poetry, but somehow came across some of noah eli gordon's work and i was quite impressed.
i'm a fiction writer. i applied to wisconsin (rejected), syracuse (assumed rejection), michigan (ditto), george mason, and brown. yes, i could quite likely be doing this again next year. i guess it won't be so bad since i'll have more experience and better research my schools.
i think i've asked you before, but where did you apply?
Last weekend?! Oh, you poor baby. That is so hard.
I had to put his older sister down two years ago. I know he misses her, because everytime we see a white dog, especially a lab, his tail goes up. Otherwise, he's not interested in other dogs - they tend to steal his tennis ball. lol
Thanks to all of you for asking. He's the only family I have, so it's especially not easy to see him sick. He'll be 11 in April. So, this could be something real. Ya know? But that pix was taken last Oct - so, you see he's been young all of his life.
It's getting late for me. I'll check in again tomorrow. Thanks again.
@Mostly Swell: It's so sad when they're lethargic. All I do is say "Sophie, want a treat? A treat?? Baby, want a TREAT?" in the most terrifying Munchausen by Proxy, cloying mommy voice ever when my dog is like that. Take care. I hope it's something small.
@beedeecee: I applied to CU, CSU, Vanderbilt (why?) and Houston. Had I more funds, I'd have added UNCW, UC Irvine (which I've heard nothing about this season), UMass, etc. It's so weird that I applied to Vanderbilt. I'm not crazy about the south and the program is so small and selective. At least it was free (mostly). I'll be bummed if I have to apply again, but my experience this year would inform a whole new organization system and set of schools. Good luck with your remaining schools!
@ Mostly Swell - Was it you who asked why King Lear divided his kingdom? If not, I will have to pretend that it was you.
I think Lear divides his kingdom out of the folly of old age. I don't have the text in front of me, so can't cite quotes. But it's his belief in a "father knows best" frame that will somehow be honored by his children - ie, that they won't behave as he has behaved and will somehow act in a fair manner. He has become sentimental in his belief that because he dealt with the wicked nature of man, then somehow the next generation will somehow transcend it, perhaps thanks to his labors. That's why he can't bear Cordelia's truth-telling. It goes against the illusions he has built up, which coddle both his sense of accomplishment and his sense of progress, which are both further boosted by fatherly love. So it's not just stupidity that causes him to divide the kingdom (again, I'm assuming that you said this); it's his soppy belief that somehow the wicked and fallen nature of man will end with him, and that his own machinations in life have some larger meaning.
JENNA! HOLY... MOTHER! AHHHH I can't believe you're THAT Jenna ::overwhelmingly-happy-to-see-you hug:: how many schools are you applying to?! (email me! meredith.c.fraser(at)gmail) in any case, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!!! Best of luck, my dear! Oh geeez, it would be good to talk to you...
Mike Larson, Novelist extraordinaire! You were to O'Malley as I was to Catherine. How do you like your program so far? feel free to email me anytime too!
Awww, okay, Dartmouth writing friends. I feel all warm and drunk with happiness right now. MMMmmmm yaaaay
Hey guys and girls, I know you think that not getting into a program will be the death of your writing, but you should really consider all the amazing writers who did not have MFAs.
Keep reading and writing, because that is what matters, not the degree. Though I have to agree that a community of peers is vastly beneficial, I prefer the community of great books.
Ever since I filled out my first application, I’ve thought about how I might cope with universal MFA rejection. I figured it would be hard, so I started working up my mental toughness to avoid several months of sitting in a room with my unhealthy friends Jack Daniels and Ben and Jerrys. It sounds like you’ve already figured out everything I came up with though, so I’ll spare you the redundancy of our collective thoughts.
I will say, however, that I can sort of empathize with the feeling. Considering that you just wrote a “It’s over for me” post in February, I’m guessing we’re kind of the same. I live a little too much in the future and tend to feel the consequences of events that have not happened to me yet (or ever).
Anyway, I just wanted to acknowledge your post. If you do wind up getting rejected everywhere, I’m sure that within a few months you’ll be turning this into a positive. Or maybe you'll be too busy to even think about it. Either way, you’ll be fine.
@Sam N. and Sarah - I sometimes swipe an argument from my musical practice for solace in this accept/reject process (where I too tend to preemptive doom and assumed failure). The argument is, "Mozart didn't know he was Mozart." In other words, the real-life W. A. Mozart probably knew he was a top rank professional composer in his day - he probably understood that he was also a major innovator. He was a huge prodigy - but there are tons of musical prodigies, actually. Mozart knew he was good, sure, but he didn't know he would be one of the two or three key figures (maybe Bach, Mozart, Beethoven?) in Western classical music. He didn't know anything about Mostly Mozart, or the other festivals, or any of it. Though the play "Amadeus" casts this retrospective light where Salieri somehow knows he's minor and Mozart is major (no pun intended), Salieri is quite a good composer, actually, and probably was equally celebrated in his day, and is being revived today too.
Or take Einstein commenting on his math skills as a young man - "I was no Einstein."
Or John Keats, who on the one hand thought that he would be one of the major English poets, but on the other died with barely any publication of his work and almost uniformly negative reviews of what had been published.
Anyway, the solace I draw is that even the greats aren't protected from the daily struggles - whatever their day's equivalent was to trying to get into an MFA program - as they tried to support their practice, hustle, and deal with the ins and outs of their day. The way we are taught, their lives seem inevitable and logical in retrospect, but probably did not seem so to them. This accept/reject thing is one aspect of the on-the-ground struggle of trying to make it, and it really pays to take the long view.
The other thing is, I think ultimate satisfaction has to come only from doing the work each day. Rewards, encouragement, positive feedback, and money are nice byproducts, but I have heard time and again from working artists that such accolades and tangible support often fade away or come in waves, and in between those waves, only practice gets you through.
This is only my second post so I'm a newbie who also is somewhat blog-post-usage-challeneged. I'm tying to respond to a post by someone named Ryan about U of Miami, which incidentally is the school I accidentally left off my list in an email yesterday.
Ryan, if you see this, everything on my UM page is cool and up-to-date. Have you called them? There's someone there named Lydia who was very nice and very helpful to me. I'd recommend asking for her.
Anybody else hear anything from Miami? If so, by what means? (email, phone, etc...)
Thanks. and good luck Ryan. Who knows maybe we'll both be reading and writing in sunny 70 degree weather at this time next year!
@Jamie Yes, it was I that mentioned the question of "why King Lear would do such a stupid thing" but the question was posed by the leader of the seminar, and the discussion had been taking place for 45 minutes when I came into it.
Since it was a two hour session intended to cover all of Act I, I was taken aback by their pursuit of an answer to "why" a fictional character behaved in such a manner, as though we could think our way into the answer, even when the text does not give us his back-story. There are intimations made by several characters about King Lear's state of mind being on the decline, but that's not where the discussion went. They were talking about his political motives. To me, it seemed that without further information, we could only postulate. They were approaching the character as though these events were historically accurate, whereas I saw these opening scenes as the set up for what's to come.
The person leading the seminar was operating on the premise that Shakespeare tied every loose end together, even if it wasn't evident in the text itself. "Afterall, this is Shakespeare." And so, folks were adding all sorts of ideas, as though they could think their way into the truth of what a man intended 400 years ago.
My college class on Shakespeare was taught by a Shakespeare scholar and she was very clear that, first and foremost, Shakespeare was in the entertainment biz. She spoke of the pressure he was under to keep producing plays. He wasn't writing for posterity nor did he have a clue that his genius would be studied or that these gaps in character information would be so hotly debated for eons. So, I was surprised to find myself among people who believed there were answers to be had.
My fascination with Shakespeare is in how close his portrayal of character's are to my own experiences with people. To me, King Lear lacked an internal sense of who he was. His folly was in acting impulsively and without regard for his own experience of his three daughters. His break down on the heath leads him to realize that without his title as King, he doesn't know who he is. His subsequent journey is one of self-discovery.
Participants were also talking about how they didn't "like" Cordelia and Kent or "agree" with what they did, which was surprising, but also seemed moot. To put it succinctly, I believe people do what they do because of who they are. But then, I'm a literary writer who enjoys character driven plot. LOL
Is anyone else experiencing an increase in wakeful nights? LOL
Thanks, Jamie, for bringing this up. I enjoyed the opportunity to share my views, uninterrupted. Of course, I have no idea if anyone at all has stuck with me through this mini impromptu essay. And I welcome discussion if anyone so desires to jump in. (I'm headed back to bed now, though.)
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«Oldest ‹Older 601 – 800 of 2428 Newer› Newest»I'm reading and re-reading my insanely optimistic and specific horoscope. If I don't into any schools, I shall finally know that Susan Miller was lying to me all this time! ;)
Link for those who want to check up on theirs... http://www.astrologyzone.com
Congrats to those who've heard back... and for those who haven't yet... it ain't over 'til it's over. No, really.
@burlaper - You may well be right. Princeton is probably still the preppiest (in the older sense of the word) of the ivies. Dartmouth seems both the most cozy and most jocky. Yale is still the most establishment. Brown the most progressive. And Harvard the most influential.
I've never really thought of Columbia and Cornell as ivies, which is certainly no slight...just a totally different vibe.
Cheers!
There are so many schools that haven't announced yet (note: I have not necessarily applied to these schools):
Montana
Oregon
Colorado State
Notre Dame
Purdue
Penn State
Florida
Virginia
Johns Hopkins
Florida
Brown
UC Irvine
Columbia
NYU
and more...
My god, there's still a lot of time and a lot of schools left. I wish all of you the best of luck!
Once again I'm gasping to catch up with this crowd! This blog moves so. freaking. fast. I feel like I owe it to you guys to respond to anything I can be of help with, so sorry for replying to questions/comments hundreds of posts back, but here it goes:
@ Frankish - Marjorie Sandor
Marjorie Sandor is so amazing. She's the MFA director here at Oregon State and has been an incredibly supportive resource, and is downright wonderful to just sit down and chat with.
@ JimfifeOH - Portland State
To be honest, I don't know a whole lot about Portland State, but for some reason I've always been under the impression that it was a commuter college. Downtown Portland is a pretty awesome place - great food, big indie music scene, plus they have VooDoo Donuts (the most famous menu item being 'Cock and Balls'). The weather isn't great, but honestly, you get used to it. There's no sales tax here. Traffic can be a bitch, but I'm from Southeast Alaska, so I guess any traffic is sort of overwhelming to me. The public transportation system is rad, the airport is getting more and more direct flights to major destinations, housing is interesting, and Powells is there. There are a lot of hipsters, though. And yippies.
@ Eli - Famous Writers With an MFA
Cornell = Lorrie Moore
@ Sahaiden
I applied to Iowa, but I can honestly say it's not my number one choice. I started my undergrad at Northwestern's incredibly cutthroat journalism program, and I personally do not fare well in competitive environments. I can't say for sure that's what Iowa would be like, but I know two people who went there, and one person told me that every workshop of her entire first year was like a "lesson in humiliation." And another guy said he went home crying after every workshop. Some people have thick skins though, but I'm not one of them. Even still, I recognize the incredible achievement of being accepted into those programs, and to everyone who's gotten accepted into Iowa: GIGANTIC CONGRATULATIONS.
@ the poster who coined 'Wiscy Business'
LOL.
And with regards to the safety school discussion, my "safety" was Wyoming, where I was waitlisted.
On a totally separate note, is anybody here from Minnesota or has spent time in Minneapolis? I'm curious about what it's like to live there. Please e-mail me! hansenma at onid dot orst dot edu (annoyingly complicated univ address, I know)
I'm sending out a huge handshake to everyone who's been accepted and waitlisted, good good good luck to everyone still in limbo, and a gigantic thanks to the MFA blog participants. I would've had a nervous breakdown if I had never discovered you guys.
@Rose - Yeah, Marjorie is great. I lucked out...freshman year at college I placed out of expository writing so took a craft of fiction seminar with her instead. This was 22 years ago (doh!). For all I remember, she might have still been a grad student.
Anyway, she was great then, and I dropped her a line a few months ago to catch up (happened to see her bio at Oregon State even though I didn't apply there). In my experience, people never change; and Marjorie was always very kind and generous.
Cheers!
subscribing
Woon: Have you read The Blind Assassin?
@ Mila
I read Susan Miller too! I'm a Cancer. I'm supposed to hear good news from a college Feb 24-25. I'm going to be super disappointed in her if I don't! She got my hopes up.
Animalistic,
We may agree on, well, nothing, but if I recall you were the poster a few mailbags back who said s/he had only applied to two programs. I believe I ridiculed your decision, and I shouldn't have done that -- it was a classless move on my part and I apologize for it. Ultimately every applicant should pursue the path that seems best to them; if that means using data and/or rankings to make application decisions, fine, and if that means not using these resources, that's equally fine. I hope you meet with success this application season.
The only point I'd ask you to reconsider is your claim that me spending hundreds of hours a year providing MFA data to applicants for free is a "cottage industry." I make around 4K a year on MFA-related business -- nearly all of it coming from freelance articles, copy-editing work, and mentoring contracts. Virtually nothing comes from my online data. Attorneys with nine years' membership in the state and federal bar, as I have, typically bill out (depending on the city) between $200/hour and $500/hour. For my online research I earn approximately two or three cents an hour -- less than that since I stopped asking readers to consider making a donation to the site. That's a lot of work, for very little remuneration, to be told I'm greedy. I wouldn't be making 8K as a doctoral student if I was a money guy. That's not where my values lie. I think I'm helping, you disagree; I've thought a great deal about the impact rankings can and should have on MFA admissions -- and hear from students and MFA brass near-daily regarding that impact -- and you have quite a different view based on your own experiences. On this we can agree to disagree, it needn't be unpleasant.
Best of luck to you,
Seth
Le Tigre,
As you know -- as we all know -- the rankings have been debated ad nauseam. I tend to think everyone has all the info they need to decide what they think about the project and its results. There are answers to all of your concerns, of course, and I've provided them both in print and online. Whether it's the case that you haven't seen them or have and simply find them unconvincing is immaterial, as either way it's a free country and you're more than entitled to your view. Best of luck with your applications -- the fact that we strongly disagree about the purpose, value, and impact of the rankings doesn't change at all my sincere desire to see other writers realize their goals. Whatever your road, I hope the trip is a smooth one and takes you where you want to go. Best of luck with all your applications,
Cheers,
Seth
@katie_booms
I'm definitely incredibly excited! The stipend looks great (even if it's significantly less than what Seth's site has it listed for) considering the cost of living, and I'd be thrilled to live in a place where Creole is a living language. Amy Fleury mentioned that the local NPR broadcasts in Creole for parts of the day!
I'm still waiting on Irvine, JHU, LSU, Houston (and others I'm embarrassed to mention because they've already notified...) so we'll see!
I swore to my husband that I wouldn't check the blogs all weekend so that we could have some quality non-crazy time together. Well, he fell asleep during Big Love so I snuck on here. Let's see--what did I miss?
Trilbe!! Congratulations, you wonderful girl, you!!
A very happy birthday to A Astur., my partner-in-revolution!
An Iowa acceptance?!?! Pass the Mylanta. Reeeal Talk. But seriously, congratulations!
I saw that there is a second Courtney around here (which is to be expected: my parents were heavily swayed by mid-eighties female name trends) so I will hereby refer to myself as Fiction Courtney; my counterpart appears to be CNF.
From what I remember about last yyear, Iowa continued to notify for a while, at first by phone for their top candidates and later by post. I'm going to sleep now, soothing myself with the hope that there's a place for me out there. (Cue "Somewhere Out There" a la Fievel Mousekewitz in An American Tail.)
Night!
@Rose - it was famous genre writers I was challenging WT on, specifically science fiction/speculative fiction. Lorrie Moore doesn't write genre. Famous writers with MFA's would be a very silly question from me at this stage of the game. That made me lol.
@JasonJ - are you putting your MFA mix up here or on the ning group? I'd be well up for downloading it again. The last one was great.
Also, talking of excellent genre writers and Ivies...which no-one was, but never mind...John Crowley's at Yale, so if Yale started an MFA, his presence there would make it my no.1 choice by miles. But that ain't gonna happen anytime soon. No-one's heard anything on the Yale MFA rumour front, right? A Yale MFA rumour front most likely doesn't even exist. I'm not holding my breath.
(Also, I'd like to see a John Crowley inspired version of the 'That's Why I chose Yale' video'.)
I can't be the only one that gags at the mention of Lorrie Moore, right?
Denis, 'fraid I love her work, but I can very much see why you would. I know lots of people who have no truck with her stuff at all. I think they're crazy :)
Are all the Iowa and UNCW acceptances been contacted, yeah?
Well, I suppose I am out of the running, now waiting for my first official rejection, ouch, and there will be two of them! :(
Just to weigh in on the Ivy League/CW thing, I'm a Yale senior and we do have an undergrad program called the writing concentration. It's only within the English major, which is good for me but not for a lot of people, BUT the classes are open to everyone. There's usually a lot of competition to get into them and I think they are planning to expand the program in the future.
I got a call from Iowa and I'm in for fiction. Extremely excited. (I haven't heard back from any other schools.) The woman I talked to had no idea this blog existed but I may have outed all of you.
@Yinz/Ya'll/Everyone What should we make of the U Washington Poetry acceptance yesterday and the subsequent call to their department which provided calls aren't made until next week? Fellowship?
@Mickey Did they mention funding?
Happy Weekend aka time to wait. Good luck, all!
Congrats, Ben! Did you get a call yesterday, or today? (It's early!)
Congratulations, Ben!
Oh my god my heart is palpitating wildly...I just got a phone call from Cornell, and I'm in for poetry. ....this is absolutely surreal. I am CRYING.
@dYIJ & katie_booms & MFC & Mickey - Congratulations, y'all!
I'm sure I've forgotten someone -- which is AWESOME -- because we have more people getting acceptances than I can keep up with!
@Everybody who's still waiting - Hang in there! I know that is a f*cking lame thing to say. BUT it's true. You can't say that you've been counted out while you still have schools that haven't notified yet! That shit is trite, but true. Nobody really thinks they're going to get into Brown, because the chances are so slim. But I guaran-f*cking-tee you that somebody here is going to get the shock of their life and then announce their acceptance. I'm not saying you should go out and buy a Brown tee-shirt, just yet. But at least hang in there and wait for them to accept somebody before you decide that you ain't that somebody.
I'm not trying to suck your d*ck here, and make you feel good. I'm just trying to spit some truth, yo!
@kaybay - I'm half Puerto Rican and I just had to chime in on the rice: sister, if that rice doesn't have pork-fat based sofrito, thus making it as un-veggie as rice can get, then that ain't no Puerto Rican rice. I love you, girl, but I just wanted to say that.
About the rankings, I just want to say that I don't think the quality of cohort can be ranked because there's no objective criteria with which we can measure the quality of the students' writing. Seth has suggested that selectivity does it. But what about my girl, Arna? She just hot into Iowa and Cornell, and appears to be shortlisted at Michener. But didn't she have Syracuse on her list and some other early-notifiers who don't appear to have chosen her? Selectivity just doesn't tell the whole story.
BUT with that said, I do think you can measure the quality of a program. Some programs are, clearly, offering a measureably better experience than others -- more time to write, less debt, a location with good quality of life. And, we're all ranking our lists based on this criteria. I mean, there are some people who are set on a place (like Lauren) or one particular instructor. But, really, who here isn't thinking about cost, teaching load, stipend and location? That's why I think a survey is actually a pretty good way to rank program this kind of program. I would also put in student-to-faculty ratio, but I'm not going to do the work to make that happen so I'll just shut the f*ck up about that.
Just my $0.02!
Oh, my God, honeybadger! You are amazing!!!
Trilbe! These rice and beans are an interesting cultural study. One lady taught me to make sofrito with green peppers, onions, cilantro, tomato sauce, and, ahem, I must admist I also use a pre-made sofrito base as well *dodges shoe*. BUT, the other girl I work with made rice and beans for us and had the weirdest stuff in there! Like banana things and chicken and mangos or something... good, but totally different! I'll have to ask either of them if they use a pork-fat base, but I can't try that until after Lent ;) The easy recipe is legit though, so I must defend it :P
Correction, by "legit" I mean amazing!
@kaybay - My family has recipes wher we put sh*t you wouldn't believe into a caldero. I mean, 5 or 6 different starches -- plus rice! Yautia, yucca, platanos, papas amarillas y sweet potatoes... It's crazy! I know that most people use that jar stuff, but my clan rolls old school: rendered pork fat colored with achiote seeds and then -- only then -- the fragrant herbs and veggies. We're, like, paleorican.
Le Tigre,
Who exactly are you to "do away" with other people's work? Are you the police? What the hell is going on? If you don't like it, ignore it and stop pouting. I don't get it.
Congrats to acceptances!! I'm losing track but I know they were Iowa and Cornell.
Congrats honeybadger!! Was this Cornell's first YES for poetry? Or does this give others waiting for the Cornell ax- say in fiction- a shred of hope?
Trilbe - "paleorican" haha, love that! Your family must be from the same side of the island as my friend, because your description sounds exactly like hers. She also claims it's the only way to make rice and beans :)
@Ben What's up man, I'm in for fiction at Iowa too. Drop me a line sometime: abhemenway at gmail.com
To an earlier post scores ago: yes I'm in at VT.
Right now I'm on a cliff overlooking a beach, with my laptop, looking like a complete tourist. None-the-less, my fellow locals aren't buying it. I just met up with an American friend (whom I met at college) in Negril. The locals are clinging to him like he's Christ incarnate (well, Christ incarnate who may be interested in buying their weed). Me they ignore, or they outright scorn. One man even assumed I was his gigolo . . . sigh.
Trilbe & Kaybay - why do Puerto Ricans call it rice and beans? I mean, you use peas in the recipe, so shouldn't it called 'rice and peas' (like how we say in Jamaica)? I got into a heated debate over this with a Dominican I dated during college. Good times. Seriously, tho - RICE AND PEAS (and we use coconut milk to boil the rice, then drop in chunks of salted pork or a whole salted pig's tail . . . mmmmmm soo gud :)
Aaand - congrats, Ben. (And anyone whom I may have missed).
Until I find a next rogue connection,
The Flying Cratty
congrats honeybadger!
and hope for the rest: since honeybadger has two acceptances at Cornell and Mich, it means a spot will open up at one of those schools for someone else!
I use pinto beans in mine, is that not culturally correct? Am I making it wrong?? I've never had rice and peas, but that doesn't sound so bad :)
@Cratty -- Are you going to take the VT seat? Why or why not? Fiction or poetry? I had my phone interview but did not get an offer yet. Perhaps it's forthcoming, perhaps it's not. Hard to say. I get the feeling that they've made all their offers and are now interviewing for waitlist slots. But I don't really know.
@Honeybadger
Hey, sorry about my comment last night. I really was confused b/c your message was almost verbatim to someone just a few posts prior. I'm still confused about that - but still, I was out a line. and outta my mind. (still outta my mind.)
congrats on your two acceptances. And I hope you didn't hurt yourself when you fell down the stairs.
consider your boo boo kissed, if you have one. and hope there's no hard feelings???? Someone called me out on my bitterness - and well, I was surprised - but now I realize, yo, she was right. WTF. Where did that come from? *sigh*
Breaking my self-imposed week of silence after realizing I was unhealthily addicted to the blog (I pondered giving it up for Lent, but no...).
Now I'm back, since scarfing a pint of chocolate peanut-butter ripple last night failed to assuage my nerves (that's right guys, I'm not even baking anymore).
@burlaper - I couldn't agree more. I went to Princeton undergrad, and I felt so lucky to be in an 8-person workshop with C. K. (effin') Williams, not to mention Linda Gregg and Tracy K. Smith (who is sooo nice in addition to being amazing). I don't think Princeton would ever agree to an MFA, and I would be sad if they did.
@ all the acceptees - way to go, everyone! Congratulations all around, especially to my fellow poets. I'm so proud of you all! To everyone who's heard "no"s, I'm sending happy acceptance vibes your way for the coming week.
Even though I'm debilitatingly nervous about waiting on these schools, I think I'm pretty philosophical about the actual news I'll be getting. If I'm in, that's wonderful and I'll be dancing around my apartment. If I'm not, it'll definitely sting, but I'll keep writing, keep sending stuff out to journals, and apply again next year. I can do this.
* deep breath *
About the beans - There are many kinds. Crafty, you're talking about arroz con gandules, rice with pigeon peas, which Puerto Ricans do call peas. But we also make rice and beans -- with manymanymany kinds of beans, kaybay. None of them are right or wrong. I was even joking about the jar sofrito. I've had great rice made with it. As my titi Juli says, "Jus make it wit love, m'ija, and is too delicious -- como yo!"
Congratulations, Honeybadger!
@Seth -- I'm a great admirer of your work. All the time and energy you expended into collecting and compiling USEFUL data -- much appreciated. I think it's quite extraordinary and I'd like to shake your hand some day.
...BUT...
You take great pains to defend your work against the tiniest of critical remarks. Any hint of criticism and I'm thinking, Oh no, Seth Unleashed! You see a couple of ants crawling in your house and you'll want to blow it up with a nuclear bomb. I don't think it's necessary. Perhaps I'm wrong. Maybe you do need to kill ants with a nuclear detonation. I don't know. But I do know that it's important to pick your battles and keep your arguments short, incisive, and to the point. I think you should just let some of the petty remarks against your rankings slide.
I do want to reemphasize that I like the rankings, especially the objective ones. The subjective polls, while less useful (to me), are at the very least fun to read.
@Trilbe - agreed! My mom is black and Norwegian, and no beans (or green vegetables, for that matter) made it to the plate in my house without some bacon grease or ham hock.
I think it's sad that I can sit here and hit *REFRESH* all day.
Dear Programs that are going to reject me via snail mail,
Do you think that is environmentally responsible? Think of the carbon footprint. Think of the poor trees. I suggest a quick email blast. There is no need for a mailman to carry my rejection thousands of miles. There is no need to put my rejection in ink. Follow Wisconsin’s lead. Just rip the band-aid off. Please.
@Frankish
You forgot about UPenn. What’s their Ivy rep? Perhaps - The Ivy that everyone forgets about...
@Seth
Thanks for all the work you do!
Hi Woon,
You're no doubt correct. I'm an imperfect man, what can I say? I was trained as a public defender -- spent 7 years arguing every day for things I believed in -- and as I see the rankings as a form of educational activism to increase funding for all students nationally, I tend to get as worked up about them as I did when I was defending indigent clients in Massachusetts and New Hampshire. But I agree it's a flaw. Sometimes I take it too far.
Be well,
Seth
DYIJ,
Shoot -- nice catch. My apologies for the bum data on McNeese State, I've fixed it. That came from someone's acceptance letter a couple years back I believe, but either the stipend has been changed or I misunderstood the info (e.g., the admittee may have said it was a $24,000 total package, and I wrongly was thinking McNeese was 2 years instead of 3 so I put it down as 12K annual rather than 8K). My bad, and again thanks for picking up on it. (And congrats on your acceptance!).
Be well,
S.
Cate,
re: Penn
Yeah, I always forget about Penn. I can't really think of what they are famous for except Wharton and maybe their Anthropology/Archaeology dept. I don't know what the stereotype is.
PS @ Woon: I was just thinking that each year I mellow out just a little bit more re: the rankings. You want to see total war -- all out thermonuclear combat -- I have a feeling there are some threads still out there from early 2007 that capture it quite nicely. ;-p Hopefully by 2012 I'll be posting from my couch in a cloud of THC and giggling uncontrollably.*
S.
* Not that pot makes me giggle. Nobody think that!
I can tell it's a weekend. I just woke up and it only took me a few minutes to catch up on the blog : - )
@Seth -- When I first discovered forums back in 1997, I used to have a completely different online persona than I have now. Sports, literature, high tech, art, movies -- you name the board, I was there. It was such a new toy to me back then that I was posting like crazy. I also created forums so that I could mess with other posters. LOL! (I can't believe I'm admitting this) I even had a website that I'd use to air my personal rants and raves, long before "blog" became mainstream. Even the smallest of slights and I'd go postal. I've mellowed a lot since then. I gave away my forums and I shut down my website.
Now, I just write short stories.
Of all your rankings, I keep turning to your Selectivity rankings the most. I like seeing those app numbers and how the schools rank wrt each other. I noticed some schools were missing, no doubt because they refused to divulge data. For example, Colorado State. But with so many schools (and so many more opening up MFA programs in the horizon), it's a tremendous undertaking.
Rankings are great, but I hate it when people misuse (abuse) them. "Oh, I got into Iowa, the top school in the land, and you only got into Pokalonka State. I mean, who heard of Pokalonka State?" That's just wrong.
Last year, I thought about applying to MA programs in English Lit. I looked for rankings. There were none. It was almost a relief. Without rankings, it narrowed the factors I used in selecting schools and in a way, it was very liberating.
Re. misusing (abusing) rankings. A few years ago, I was in a writing group. One of the girls mentioned that she was going to an MFA program. I asked which one. And she said Hollins. My first reaction to her was, "Hollins? What the hell is Hollins? Where is Hollins?" It was very insensitive. No doubt that incident brought her to tears. I felt bad about that incident. I subsequently discovered more about Hollins and that it had a great MFA program. Anyway, last year I discovered that she didn't enroll in Hollins. Don't know where she ended up. Dear god, I hope she's not planning vengeance on me.
Just discovered this blog as the applicants I've written letters for this year have been obsessing over it, which is understandable. As a faculty member in a program about to make calls starting on Monday, let me just reiterate to all of you that this is an extraordinarily competitive year. We agonized over our decisions, knowing how important this is for so many of you. (We are a small program, with full funding, and we saw a 100% increase in applicants this year.)
Don't stop reading or writing, whether you get in or not. This is a maddening thing you're trying to do (write), and honestly, your acceptance or rejection at this early career stage means nothing in terms of where you end up in the long run. Whatever you end up doing for the next year or so, it's going to feed your muse if you let it, whether you're changing oil or waiting tables or sitting in workshop....
Woon and Seth — This is an interesting conversation. I've stayed out of the rankings debate until now, but wanted to add my two cents. The idea of a ranking hinges on the fact that we're categorizing something of a similar nature — and what's struck me about the MFA process, as I've researched and now applied to schools, is that so many MFAs are apples and oranges.
And that's great! I love that there are programs out there that focus on on experimental prose, or that are all about formal poetry, or that link an MFA with coursework in other disciplines, or that include an international or volunteer element.
Some of those programs, for good reason, won't garner as many applications as a school like Iowa with such broad appeal. It's the same reason we break college rankings into categories like liberal arts colleges and large research universities. Just because we all (hopefully!) end up with an MFA at the end doesn't mean that we're undertaking the same kind of education.
I've come to accept, more and more, that this whole process is about fit — the schools that have accepted me so far were the ones that, when I was researching my list last fall, just clicked for me. I clicked for them, too. But I think rankings can dissuade some — not all, by any means — applicants from applying to the lesser known, less popular schools that might offer that fit for them.
Thank you for the work you do, Seth — particularly when it comes to compiling selectivity and funding information for applications; this has been incredibly helpful to me. I also appreciate knowing the trends in where applicants, and where the most applicants, tend to be applying. I'm just not sure that I see how popularity among applicants translates into a "ranking" of anything but just that — popularity.
Thanks again. Back to baking,
Katie
@Dean B.
Dean Bakopoulos?
Wise words.
I clicked on Dean B's profile to see which school he's from and it said "Profile Not Available." Grrrrr! That makes me so mad!
@Woon - Maybe he or she is from Hollins. :P
Bakopoulos is Madison, I believe.
I don't know if Dean B is from Iowa State, but last year (or was it two years ago?), I emailed with someone from Iowa State. At the time, they didn't offer full funding. They offered one scholarship to their top candidate and the rest had to fight for TA-ships. Many were not funded. That's the impression I got. Things may have changed some over the years though, I'll grant that.
But you have to have an interest in Environmental writing. I don't really know what that is. I can guess, but I really have no insights. Most of my writings don't touch on Mother Earth and our relationship to her; rather, the destruction of ants with nuclear bombs.
I'm reading George Eliot's "Middlemarch" btw. Poor Dorothea. Well, young kids tend to make stupid decisions. <-- You see, Dean B, I am reading.
. . .still in limbo
@Jason J
I loved your playlist! I've been creating different playlists to relieve the waves of stress and anxiety.
The Frustrated Loud Mix
**That's Not My Name - The Ting Tings
Song 2 - Blur
**I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For - U2
When Your Mind's Made Up - Glen Hansard & Marketa Irglova (Once sdtk)
Jigsaw Falling Into Place - Radiohead
**Plus Profond - Hooverphonic
**I Feel It All - Feist
I Just Don't What To Do With Myself - The White Stripes
Again & Again - The Bird and the Bee
Heart Skipped A Beat - The XX
Hung Up - Madonna
Harder to Breathe - Maroon 5
Let Me Be the One - Expose
SOS - Rihanna
Mercy - Duffy
Everyone Wants to Rule the World - Tears for Fears
Stronger - Kanye West
Try Again - Aaliyah
Superstar - Lupe Fiasco
**Don't Stop Believing - Glee sdtk
I Can't Wait - Nu Shooz
The Calm Down Mix
Rollercoaster - Everything But the Girl
**Don't Panic - Coldplay
You're Not Alone - Olive
In the Waiting Line - Zero 7
I Shall Believe - Sheryl Crow
Change of Heart - El Perro del Mar
Ooh Child - Beth Orton
Do you Realize?? - The Flaming Lips
Let Go - Frou Frou
**The Trick is to Keep Breathing - Garbage
I Am Not Good At Not Getting What I Want - Sophie Ellis-Bextor
All These Things That I've Done - The Killers
**You've Got the Love - Florence & the Machine
I went to the gym and didn't think about MFAs for an entire hour. But I did think about America's Top Model because it was on TV in front of my machines. I wonder if it's better to drive myself insane hitting refresh on this blog or lose brain cells watching beautiful girls out-pose each other.
@Dean B,
If you're watching for responses...
Thanks. Your message is a keeper. It's so encouraging to have someone from an adcom tell us this.
@ Woon
Middlemarch is one of my all-time favorite books. Don't worry about Dorothea. You'll like the ending.
@ the duchess
Thanks for the music suggestions. I've wandered from this past-time of putting playlists together. Maybe I'll resume and post something as well.
HA - I think I just realized that honeybadger is my friend who lives down the street from me. Congrats, "honeybadger!" :)
@ MostlySwell
You're welcome - enjoy! I look fwd to your playlist. :)
Middlemarch is my favorite novel! One of my early online names was "dorothea."
Woon--I'd love to go to a school that specializes in environmental writing--that's what I do (formally in my CNF, and more subtly (I hope) in my fiction.)
I can't move to Iowa, unfortunately. That program sounds great.
@Jasmine/beedeecee:
It's a little belated, but I have no writer friends in real life, either. And Jasmine, I used to volunteer at 826 Valencia (a creative writing workshop for kids) which seems like a place one could procure some creative friends, but they were mostly dorks.
Also, every workshop I've been in has been full to the brim with freaks. That's why this experience is sort of nice.
@Dean B: Your message was lovely. Thanks for the encouragement!
Franny
Workshop, for me, was a mixture of undeserved egos, the completely delusional, petty mean spirits, and in at least one case, someone who was all three on top of being disturbed. I can think of a handful of people I thought were really cool, but I was just never able to become friends with them. I was really close to a couple of guys for a while, one of them for years actually, but they turned out to be d-bags of the highest order.
So, I hang all my writer-friend-hopes on grad school. I have this fear that I'll never make any, though, and it'll just be a repeat of the d-bag show.
Sorry, I forgot I would fuel a ton of speculation about the program in question. I'm am from Iowa State, not one of the ones you all are speculating about so I figured I could weigh in. We've got an impressive slate of candidates this year and we're making calls next week to those people once our administrative to-do list is finalized. So hang tight. I'm sure most programs are making sure they have all the TAships and what not approved before making calls. We are building a sweet little program here in Ames, and if you have questions about it for next year's round, holler. Our definition of "environmental" is broad and inclusive. I'm not a nature writer, but I am "an environmental" writer by our definition.
I suppose my first post was to assure you all that there is no predictable career path for this life. And it sure does suck when things don't work out. I feel for you all. But I'm dead serious when I say you can do this without an MFA. Don't wait for a green light from an academic program!
http://engl.iastate.edu/programs/creative_writing/mfa/
Re. workshop. I'm very collegial and respectful in workshop. I read everyone's stories twice (sometimes, three times) and make lots of comments on the margins. I may hate your work, but I will never express this openly because I am aware that writers are very sensitive. Besides, the point of workshop is to help each other improve our craft and negative vibes certainly don't help. So, I usually put on my best smiley face and give everyone "Attaboy!" pats on the back. I think this is important.
@ Cate & WanderingTree: Charles Bernstein, Kenneth Goldsmith and Bob Perelman are at U Penn. Not to mention some other wonderful poetics faculty and general theory faculty. Great place for a poetics PhD (among many other things, I’d suppose).
Also, Congrats to everyone. Especially the Michigan, Iowa and UMass people.
Best, Aaron
@Dean B -- Thank you for your disclosure. I thought about applying to Iowa State but I just could not wrap my head around the "environmental" label. A flaw on my part, no doubt.
Woon:
I'm the same way. I'm exceptionally thorough in workshop, and supportive. The overwhelming majority, however, were not the same. I think you owe it to yourself and your workshopping peers to do the best job you can on the work of others, but most of the people I workshopped with didn't have the same philosophy.
Anyone know if Iowa's finished?
Hey Trilbe can I make a request - I'd love to read your fiction manuscript - only if it's okay with you please email me at bshveta@hotmail.com....And I do completely understand if you don't wish too..congrats once more super girl!!!
Congrats to HoneyBadger on acceptances from Cornell and Michigan. And congrats to Ben on Iowa. Nice job, guys.
@Jasmine -- Yes! I hate it when others don't reciprocate in kind.
To weigh in on workshops--I really think the leader sets the tone. If the leader encourages unnecessarily harsh critique (particularly if they are known/respected) I've found that other writers follow suit, sadly. It's a real skill to critique in such a way that opens up creativity--a skill many writing "teachers" may not have.
@Nefrettiti
I pretty sure Trilbe is poetry.
Daffron
Just to be contrary, I will offer an opinion from the other side. My final undergraduate workshop was led by a writer with unflagging gentility. She was so nice I'm not sure she was entirely helpful to students who needed a heavy guiding hand. And when certain people got out of control in class with their negativity (often wrapped in smarmy "no offense, but" comments), she did not do much to rebuke them. And one of my former friends who turned out to be a d-bag even wrote "Can you even speak English?" on one person's work, which of course, the instructor cannot control.
One of my teaching statements even mentions that I think the ideal creative writing instructor is one who is gentle but firm. I absolutely adore my last workshop instructor, but I'm not sure she had the firm part down.
Wow, I wrote gentility when I meant gentleness above. Forgive me, oh writers.
Hmm...let me try that again. (Me talk pretty one day...)
Trilbe is a poet not a fiction writer, from my understanding.
@ Dean B.
If you e-mail me at sethabramson[@]yahoo.com I'll add Iowa State to the funding and selectivity rankings published online. If Iowa State is fully-funded now it would go into the funding rankings, from the get-go, as a top 40 national program in that category. The rankings are viewed by between 10,000 to 40,000 visitors/week (depending on the time of year), and programs appearing high in the rankings have generally seen between a 33% and 300% increase in apps since last year -- so people are definitely paying attention. I'd love to feature Iowa State also. I wrote the recent rankings published by Poets & Writers, so hopefully this request to e-mail me won't seem totally out of the blue. I'm regularly in contact with MFA directors and do my best to feature programs that are fully-funded. I'm thrilled -- more than you can know! -- to find out another fully-funded program has been added to the national ranks. My goal as an education activist is to promote fully-funded programs to the best of my ability.
Best wishes,
Seth Abramson
Jasmine,
Agreed that firm is essential and useful. My favorite workshops are led by instructors who insist that the work is critiqued based solely on what's on the page, the language--tone, POV, character, etc. I've just sat through some workshops where it's clear the instructor prefers a certain kind of work, and isn't able to take other work for what it is instead of what it isn't. This usually leads to the sort of environment where it seems like some pieces are right and others are wrong. I think it's a limited view, and one that benefits nobody. I guess, for me, the debate is not so much whether they're naughty or nice, but whether they can see what's on the page and help it become fuller/deeper/richer material, and not just through the lens of what their particular biases are.
Daffron,
Well said, and I agree.
@Katie
I know Woon's watching, so I'll be both brief and conversational. The theory is that "popularity" is not an empty term -- among well-researched communities of MFA applicants such as this one, a program becomes "popular" primarily as a result of the research applicants do -- into funding, into faculty, into location, into student-to-teacher ratio, into graduate placement and success, and so on. Things applicants care about (rightly) and MFA faculties do not (ironically, it is faculties, not applicants, who are much more likely to judge programs by some amorphous notion of "prestige," unanchored by objective data like funding and cost of living &c &c). I also am certain (though I know Trilbe disagrees, and that's okay) that greater popularity leads to greater selectivity and consequently a stronger cohort -- and every interaction I've had with MFA directors has included this sort of admission (i.e., "this is our largest applicant pool ever, and as a result our strongest group of writers ever"). So when you see a program is "popular," a) there's a good reason for it, if the data is sizable enough to really establish a trend, and b) there are observable consequences to it, including what I consider the #1 most important feature of a program (after location and funding): cohort quality. We learn as much or more from our fellow writers, as time goes on, as we do from faculty -- assuming a strong cohort. Reasonable and good people can disagree on all of this, though. Just wanted to give the two-minute version of my answer to your (implicit) question.
Be well,
S.
P.S. Again speaking only conversationally, I know that the rankings have actually had their most beneficial effect on the programs you're concerned about -- "low"-ranked fully-funded programs are seeing the largest increases in applicants in their existence, and consequently are moving up in the rankings like rockets. Meanwhile, non-funded "low"-ranked programs are now in a position to go to their university bursars and say, "Look what happened to McNeese State! They're #52 nationally now. Or Wyoming. Or Western Michigan. &c &c. If we fund our students we will skyrocket in applicants' esteem!" And the cool thing is: They're right. Watch what happens in 2011 once we put Iowa State "on the board" as fully-funded. If they thought a 100% increase in apps was big, they ain't seen nothing yet! And I'm totally thrilled by that. They deserve it. Every program that respects their students as artists -- and therefore funds them -- deserves what the ranking system offers them. Attention, attention, attention.
@ Mostly Swell
Hi, sorry for confusing you, I did post a response before the one I did yesterday but I realized it showed my real name, when I wanted the "honeybadger" name, hehe...
honey badgers are my favorite animals, if you can tell. And thank you for the congratulations.
@Adam
Neighbor, let's get together and celebrate once you get good news back!!
@ everyone
Thank you all and keeping my fingers crossed for everyone!
re: workshops
I probably said this already-- had too much wine last night ;) --but of the five workshops I've had (not including two forms classes that were run much like workshops) there was only one really disruptive person. This was an undergrad fiction workshop, and the guy was just a bully and a know-it-all. The teacher was very kind but couldn't really control him. By the end of the class, we all just rolled our eyes and started reading something interesting whenever he opened his mouth. But he wasn't really mean, just a boor. I think he's a successful Hollywood producer now (no joking).
There were one or two other people I didn't really get along with, but we were able to keep everything civil. Everyone else was pretty cool. It may just be coincidental, but the nicest/coolest/most generous people in the workshops ended up becoming the most successful writers (and also my closest friends from school). That was both for grad and undergrad CW courses.
This was around 20 years ago, so I hope things haven't changed too much. Certainly, as the discipline has gained broader appeal and recognition over the past two decades, it may have gained more competitive or Type-A students. I hope not. I'd be really bummed if I went back for an MFA and (unlike the friendly, driven, helpful folks in MA program) the other students were jerks. Ugh.
Here's hoping not!
South Carolina Update.
When you're an MFA geek like me, if there's one thing you get off on it's the discovery that another MFA program has gone fully-funded (the primary aim of the rankings is for all MFA programs to be fully-funded for all admittees within the next 25 years [see here for more details]).
According to a recent advertisement in AWP's The Writer's Chronicle, the University of South Carolina has joined the ranks (along with Iowa State University!) of fully-funded programs. If anyone can confirm this for me through voluntary disclosures from the program (a critical aspect of the rankings' transparency-promoting methodology) I'd really appreciate it -- as the USC website hasn't been updated yet -- but I'm going to add USC provisionally to the funding rankings as fully-funded (with an asterisk).
And Iowa State will go in as fully-funded but without data (unless/until I hear from Dean; fingers crossed!).
Be well, all,
Seth
Seth-
Do you know the stats for NYU as far as applicants to slots?
It seems odd that both Sarah Lawrence and Hunter are now outside of the top 50. Wow! It's weird that there are such large changes in the rankings from even a year ago...hmmm...
@Seth, Let me say that I'm very grateful for all the work you've done and the information you‘ve compiled made it easier for me to make what I hope were intelligent decisions in the application process.
However, I'd like some clarification about the rankings:
I've read your article in Poets where you explain the rationale behind the rankings, but I'm still confused as to how you can possibly protect against fraud in the voting. There is nothing that can stop people from voting under multiple accounts in multiple locations, no?
Don't you think that this could be a major problem as the schools themselves could attempt to influence the rankings?
You wrote before that we could disagree about the ranking system, but what defense are you providing of peoeple voting multiple times?
Thanks,
Le Tigre
Has anyone heard if Minnesota is done notifying for fiction?
YARebels,
NYU is actually a fascinating case, applicant pool-wise. Their apps tend to fluctuate wildly from year to year, as low as 650 apps (within the past five years) to as high as 950 (also within the last five years). But those numbers are not from 2010. I think the rankings allow a mathematical guess-timate of NYU's apps, a system I've used with some success before. Suffice to say that a good educated guess would be that NYU is presently somewhere between 600 and 750 total apps, with a yield of between 60% and 75%. Hope this helps,
Be well,
Seth
Ah!
Waitlisted at Iowa for NWP.
Two responses, two waitlists...
Congrats to today's acceptees!
Congratulations, Dry Leaves!! I literally just walked back into the house after checking the mail. I still haven't heard one peep from the NWP at Iowa. The longer I wait the harder it gets. But, hey, I'm happy for you. That's great!!!
Hi Le Tigre,
I'd mentioned in the original introduction to the 2011 rankings (which I've since removed because I think it was over-complicated, and pleasing only to a stats-geek like me), that I anticipated two or three of the four new-comers to the Top 50 would drop out (I believe I predicted it would be Portland State and Memphis), to be replaced by two or three of the "bubbling under" schools that had been in last year's Top 50. That prediction has proven prescient -- in the current data (which I haven't uploaded to TSE yet) Hunter is already back within the Top 50. And I believe it will stay there (for many reasons, not least of which is that NYC-area publicly-posted application lists tends to increase toward the end of the application period, as those who didn't want or need a funding-centric MFA-applicant community come online for the first time and begin to share their NYC-area application lists). As to Sarah Lawrence, I think it's important to remember that it's a very, very different program from Hunter -- much, much more expensive; not as well located within the city (Yonkers as opposed to Manhattan); and it's stronger in the less-popular major genre, poetry, whereas Hunter (due largely to Peter Carey, who's amazing and one of my favorite authors) is stronger in fiction. So Hunter (and, for similar reasons, Brooklyn), will always have a major edge over Sarah Lawrence College. Based on cost and some other factors, the school most comparable to SLC is Columbia -- and the latter program's fortunes among applicants these past few years is of course well-documented.
To answer your second question -- and it's a great question -- is slightly more complicated, and would take much more space. But I'll give you just a few of the bullet-points of the answer:
* The poll is now too big to punk. To even temporarily move a single program more than 10 spots (out of roughly 145 national programs, or 200 if you count low-res) would take a massive campaign of several weeks. And even a 10-spot increase for a single program, however temporary, would not be statistically significant from the perspective of poll-watchers (that's literally only a 6.99% movement in a school's ranking).
* Cross-checks help ensure accuracy. I have five years of data now to compare -- there is no major movement in the rankings that isn't immediately observable and subject to analysis and explanation. If a program is moving in the rankings beyond any statistical likelihood I can spot it in real-time -- making punking the poll in the way referenced above literally impossible. If you knew what it would take to move, say, University of New Mexico even ten spots in the five-year overall rankings, you would see that I'd spot any such campaign within 48 hours. It would stick out like a sore thumb -- laughably so. Plus, the campaign would have to be perpetual (i.e. years in duration): any even momentary lapse in such a campaign would lead to the program falling back down in the rankings.
{cont.}
Eli, I will post music here.
The Duchess, good tunes, might add some of them to my mfa playlist.
@ Kerry Headley - Supposedly, Iowa NWP has sent out its rejection/waitlist letters so if not today, Kerry, hopefully Monday. Thanks for the props. I'm numb with excitement, though in reality a waitlist is a waitlist and not a sure bet. It's a way of perpetuating the anxiety!
Motive. I have many years of experience working with service-oriented jobs -- I spent 7 years representing more than 2,000 accused criminals in District and Superior Courts. This will sound sappy, but what I learned was that people are actually infinitely more trustworthy than we would think (or the media would have us believe). I think I mentioned recently that I've only had to retract one claim of MFA admission in four years of collecting application response dates. That's one false claim of admission over the course of hundreds and hundreds of public declarations. This is a community where everyone benefits from accurate information and where there's really no benefit to being a scoundrel -- get found out, and not only do you hurt your chances of MFA admission (as, I'm sorry to say, I know for a fact MFA adcoms do read this blog), you hurt your future social prospects (not just because your future cohort will be skeptical of you, but because any program whose adherents are caught punking the poll goes on a one-year probation from the rankings, which immediately makes the culprit the least-popular person in the program). Not to mention that you render the data you yourself wish to rely upon less accurate -- there's a social contract in place here, because many of us need this data to some degree or another at some point in the application and matriculation process. The point is, history shows the rate of fraud in this community is almost zero -- just as (and you may find this incredible) I almost never had my trust betrayed even by individuals accused of robbery, rape, and murder. Sure, sometimes there was deceit, but it was rare and when it happened it was owned up to eventually. I'd expect no less -- and have found no less -- in this community. There's more I could say on this but I think you get my point.
Universal data access. I have access to every single application list at the drop of a hat -- it's on my home server. So if I have any doubts about a particular school's movement I can (with the touch of a button) review every single application list that includes that school. I can check Blogger profiles to see if the school consistently gets votes from recently-created profiles -- yes, I've done this kind of investigation. I can check to see whether the votes can from a sock-puppet (a one-time poster) or someone who has been participating in the community for weeks -- and yes, I've done this kind of investigation too. I can, and do, analyze application trends to see which admixtures of programs in a single application list are exceedingly strange (as, keep in mind, if you wanted to move a single school up, not only would you have to not vote for any school it was immediately/proximately competing with, not only would you need a team, not only would you need weeks, you'd also have to hope that I was literally in a coma because that's what it would take for me not to see it). Not to mention that, among all the cross-checks I mentioned here and before, there are others -- e.g., I can cross-check with funding data, selectivity data, and applicant pool data (where publicly available from programs) to see whether a given school's ascension has any impetus behind it in the hard numbers.
{cont.}
Sorry to ask again--I know it's frustrating for everyone to want information, but does anyone have any word on IWW fiction?
@Daffron
A number of people have gotten acceptances from Iowa in fiction. Try doing a little searching through the comments.
@Seth
I know you've heard this before, but: the work you're doing is incredible.
Thank you so much
Hi, I am new to this website. Trying to get familiar with it, but so far haven't found any posts about the following schools. Wondering if anyone has heard anything at all from any of these schools, and if so, by email? by postal mail? etc... (In the process of moving and not sure I'm getting all my postal mail.) Thanks.
Michigan
Virginia Tech
WVU
Johns Hopkins
Southern Illinois (SIUC)
LSU
@ Tisk:
Being a poetry wait-list at Minnesota, I’d say there is still a chance that you might make the wait-list early next week. I could be wrong, though.
The response database has the first fiction acceptance listed on the 18th. I didn’t receive my spot on the wait-list (via e-mail) until a couple of days after the original poetry acceptances went out (via phone).
Good Luck, Aaron
Just heard from CSU. In for fiction. Ridiculously happy! It was such a kind phonecall, I'm a little blown away! I sincerely, sincerely wish everyone the same happiness. This is my 2nd year applying to programs after a 0-7 run last year and it's turned out, so far, even better than I could hope for. Really, the best of luck to everyone! And if it doesn't work out this year for some of you, trust me when I say, a year CAN make all the difference!
Oh, genre of poetry. Thanks!
The Outlier Fallacy. It's important to distinguish between data in the aggregate and an individual data-point (among hundreds). The possibility of a single data-point -- a single vote -- being inauthentic is much higher than the possibility of the data in the aggregate (over many years and many voters) being inaccurate. One can't extrapolate the ease of a single false vote with the overall outcome of an election -- remember that the Republicans do this in claiming that if a single dead person "voted" in Ohio in 2008 Obama is an illegitimate President. Well, no. You see my point. But remember, too, that not only is all the data public but also it all coheres -- right now the statistical correlation between last year's top 50 and this year's is an astounding 92%. And within two weeks I am expecting that it will rise to 96%. There's so much more to say on this point, but I want to limit myself to three uses of the word "continued" at the bottom of a post. Suffice to say, for now, that we should keep in mind that even if one school someone got punked it wouldn't fundamentally affect the accuracy of the other 99.3% (142/143) of the poll. So even a punking still makes the data infinitely more valuable than not having any data.
Poll Structure. As I've often said of the rankings, small differences in ranking are meaningless -- the substantive difference between a program ranked #25 and #35 is almost meaningless. It's that way in all rankings (not just this one). So all the hypotheticals above about someone somewhere somehow moving a program -- temporarily -- ten spots forward also presumes an uneducated poll-reading populace who thinks such a move particularly significant. It's not. To make a major dent in the rankings you'd need to move a program 20+ spots over a period of at least two years. That is almost a full-time job, I assure you. But we also need to keep in mind that, in the field of MFA programs, "prestige" only comes into play with the top 10 or so programs anyway -- and these are far and away the hardest programs to punk (I'm willing to say, actually, that given the safeguards in place it's impossible to do without getting caught). Beyond that, what has one actually accomplished in advancing a program from, say, #60 to #40? If it's an unfunded program, no one's going to suddenly apply there because of the rankings -- that's financial suicide. If it's a funded program, hey, it was headed on up the rankings anyway. Beyond which (and I know this is bizarre) but to the extent all rankings are self-fulfilling prophecies to a degree even a punked poll self-corrects; consider, if U.S. News & World Report came out tomorrow and said University of Wisconsin-Madison was now the #1 university in America for undergrad, not Harvard or Princeton, don't you think that its cohort the following year would take an enormous leap in objective quality? Thereby lessening the "falseness" of the punking because the data actually, literally changes to accommodate and render "accurate" the punking. It's an odd aspect of rankings.
This is literally the tip of the iceberg in answering your question, but I've spent four years working on this issue so I could go on way, way, way past anyone else's interest (and probably already have).
Be well,
S.
congrats dolores!! lovely news!
Kate:
Funding is very slim. I don't know the complete story, but it sounds like they had to cut back on all TAships this year. Next week I'll be talking with more admins and current students, because there are scholarships available. Before this whole process, I promised myself I wouldn't launch further into debt, but if this is my only acceptance, I would absolutely love to be within the program there. There poetry faculty is stunning, and very supportive, so we'll see what happens. I'll post any news on this blog. keep the wheels turning!
Just posted on the wrong mailbag. Oops!
Has anyone posted an actual acceptance to Vandy in Poetry? Or are all three of those people not on the board (or silent)?
Why are we solidifying Ashton Kutcher's (APlusK on Twitter; good name!) cultural legacy by saying polls got punked? Enough with the punking! ;)
@ Daffron, I think there have been 3 (maybe 4) IWW acceptances posted on this site. Arna Bontemps (the second to confirm an offer) said that the notification process will take several days. How she knows this, I don't know, but until someone else says otherwise, I'm hoping more calls will begin Monday. Unlike a few other schools, IA does NOT seem to be making any noise over the weekend.
got an official acceptance letter from temple yesterday (snail mail). it was dated february 12th.
@ Le Tigre
If I can pop in once more to give a hypothetical. Say you wanted to move UNM ten spots on the five-year overall rankings, from #59 to #49. First, keep in mind such a movement would not be statistically significant, would not lead to significant increases in esteem or applications for UNM, and would not be an abiding amendment of the rankings unless it was maintained for 2+ years (and which would leave the ranking still 99.3% accurate). Here's what you'd have to do: In a 24-hour period you'd have to create 17 fake Blogger accounts and post 17 consecutive application lists with "New Mexico" on them while ten other programs received zero votes (because to pass these other programs they'd have to literally be standing still, so you'd have to move quickly). So there'd have to be no votes whatsoever for Virginia Tech, Maryland, VCU, Rutgers, American, &c &c over that time.
Based on historical trends, I would know that such lists were inauthentic after four -- yes, four -- consecutive references to New Mexico. Four, not seventeen -- because even four consecutive references would be a significant statistical anomaly based on five years of research.
The funny thing is, if by some sudden bout of brain damage I didn't stop the counting after four fraudulent lists, but happily and stupidly allowed five, ten, fifteen, seventeen (over a 24-hour period!), what would have been accomplished? For a period of about five minutes New Mexico would be #49, not #59 (a paltry 6.99% increase in its ranking). A meaningless change. And seconds later the program would begin to drop again, until after about 30 days it was roughly where it started, perhaps four or five spots ahead. After sixty days, the punk would be more or less entirely dead. Meaning: to maintain the punk the user would have to create not merely a handful but literally dozens of Blogger accounts and continue the punk for a period of many months. Keeping in mind that (back in reality) I would have put the drop on the whole operation within the first 24 hours.
Given that this is a community in which only one admissions response claim has been retracted in four years -- a fraud rate of something like 0.01% -- and that that single fraud took only sixty seconds to execute, how likely is it that an individual in this community would devote weeks and weeks of their lives to punk a poll which, if they were caught doing so, would make their desired program a black sheep and ineligible for the rankings for 1 year (thereby making the program administration livid with that person), and which, even if successful, would have no substantive impact or meaning whatsoever -- either for New Mexico (a 6.99% increase from a non-prestige position to a non-prestige position!) or anyone else (a poll that remained 99.3% authentic?). Hopefully this synthesizes some of the major issues that would arise in actually playing out your hypothetical in real-time.
Best wishes,
Seth
@seth
As I think I've said before, on the whole, I believe that your driving ideas and missions are exactly right. Openness and transparency make a perfect amount of sense and the work you've done aggregating data is 100% commendable. As someone who was contemplating MFA application long before 2007, I say this with utter sincerity: the MFA community has benefited enormously from your work.
My two problems really, are (a) I am deeply suspicious of the idea of recommended 12 applications per person, and (b) I question the validity of using an opt-in poll as an indicator of, well, anything.
I accept the validity of your spread application method's underlying thinking, but I reject entirely the idea that it benefits the writer. This isn't to argue that Hypothetical Program A (which ranks high) is better than Hypothetical Program B (which ranks less), but rather that the experience within programs are so different that I do not see how someone can be well served (or well researched) if they're applying to places with vastly different faculties and emphases. I also don't think an environment should be fostered in which writers are implicitly taught that if they just wish hard enough, there's going to be a place for them somewhere. It strikes me as potentially damaging to craft. Seriously. (This says nothing of the long term implications of having everyone apply everywhere.)
As for the poll, I think it's bunk. When you're relying entirely on Internet-based voluntary polling, the numbers you get will have such a wide range of biases as to make them useless. I don't think you correct, or can even anticipate nor correct, these biases. Can you say with certainty that you're getting an accurate spread of fiction to poetry applications?
I certainly can't. That's because I don't know a thing about statistics or polling. The commenter above makes a good point-- the most useful data up is the selectivity data, as it's based on what we hope are roughly accurate hard numbers.
But, in the end, the real problem is that you come on, as woon said, like an atomic bomb. Your behavior with the poster in the Brown MFA forums was appalling. Your endless mea culpas don't excuse you. Whatever your background, you are not mystically freed from a modicum of decorum and civility.
Particularly distressing in its implications was your willingness to accept half of that person's information (the number of applicants) while completely rejecting their information about the number of poetry-vs-fiction applicants. This makes no logical sense; either you believe the person has the correct data or you don't. You can't divide and conquer and take what you want because it reinforces your own assumptions. (Well, of course you can. It's The Internet.)
I find your manner on these forums to be akin to bullying. I wish you wouldn't, because I think it harms short term conversation (in that most people don't have the time/the inclination/the willingness/the courage? to argue with someone who always responds to the slightest provocation with a 2000 word diatribe of outrageous rhetoric) and long term reporting. Do you honestly think Brown students of future years are going to be willing to pass info in the way they have been doing on the Speakeasy for the last 4 years running? Why would anyone bother with the example you've set?
So, in summary: good work, please stop fighting and then expecting things to OK because you apologize afterwards. Apologies are meaningless unless they're backed up by action.
@Seth - So, are you saying RealTalk really did in fact get into Iowa and Michigan?
@ Seth
Wow, that's great news about University of SC. I applied there, assuming they were only partly funded (if you got lucky enough to get a TAship), so that's really exciting to know they are indeed fully funded. Thanks for the info!
Seth-
NYU isn't in your funding rank page. Is this because it's not ranked well? According to NYU's site they have strong fellowships and packages.
@YaRebels,
Here's a little breakdown on NYU funding that Seth did last year:
http://creative-writing-mfa-handbook.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-nyu.html
I needed to share this, for the bakers:
http://www.joythebaker.com/blog/2010/02/top-5-im-totally-freaking-out-right-now-recipes/
Looking at that NYU funding information makes me want to consider applying there next year if I need to reapply. The only thing that kept me from their program was the funding, which I had sort of assumed didn't exist. Thanks for the link!
Wow. When I was accepted to NYU five years ago, that was not the case. Glad to see they've improved their packages a bit.
@animalistic
I'm sanguine about whether the rankings help writers because I know they do -- it's not speculation. I have hundreds of e-mails confirming it, and only an occasional post (and zero e-mails) from individuals who have problems with the rankings (which, invariably, they admit to having used anyway and benefited from; usually, their concern is that others aren't as intelligent as they are and will not use the rankings and data as wisely as they do). I also have e-mails from MFA brass telling me how the rankings helped them get more money for their kids. My point is, I don't want to argue on this because it'd be like you telling me the color of my pajamas.
As to whether rankings can predict one's experiences -- they can't and don't claim to. Nothing can -- we like programs based on the people we meet, or how we gel with the locale, and no ranking can predict that. The purpose of rankings is to quantify what we can quantify and acknowledge that all else is a crap-shoot. Anyone who thinks that eschewing rankings allows a prediction of they'll be happy is -- well, they're welcome to think so. If one has the money to spend a month in a locale and meet all the people one will study with, yes, ignore the rankings (at least the overall; the others would still be vital). But no one has that time or money.
A lot of what you're saying I agree with; you're kind of putting words into my mouth in suggesting I don't. I've said more frequently than you or than anyone -- in fora where it was unpopular -- that one shouldn't rush to do an MFA, an MFA isn't helpful for everyone, the MFA doesn't "get" one anything. So you're ascribing views to me I don't have and then asking me to be courteous about it; just so, you've suggested that I'm a greedy "peddler" of nonsense when I'm voluntarily living in near poverty and watching attorneys with similar experience to mine making 45 times what I make. Do you know how angry, in light of that fact, your baseless allegations make me? How angry would they make you? That I'm as civil as I'm being now, especially with someone I don't know and owe nothing to -- who's using the fruits of my labor and then criticizing me for them -- is a choice I make. But no, it's not easy.
{cont.}
As to my demeanor: In some instances I've over-stepped and I've apologized. In some instances I've been unfairly maligned (to have said 3 times to that Brown poster that I wasn't questioning his/her motives, while meanwhile -- unbeknownst to you -- s/he was sending me obscene private messages, well, I don't agree with your characterization of what happened there). I was above-board about what my concerns were and what I was/wasn't calling into question. Your behavior towards me is what's been appalling -- using my data while publicly disparaging it and saying that I'm trying to make a lucrative "cottage industry" of BS -- but that doesn't justify me getting cross with you the way I did, questioning your app decisions, which is why I apologized and sincerely. But there's a third reality, which is that you just haven't walked even an inch in my shoes. This is a 5-year project with no staff, budget, or profit to speak of, and no concrete thanks in the offing except the occasional kind words of people I'll never meet. Doing this takes time away from my poetry and certainly (!) hasn't led a single poster of the 25,000+ who've frequented this board in the past few years to buy my book of poetry. Not that I thought it would or expected it would, simply to say that this takes away from my writing time. I do it because I love doing it and know that I'm helping future writers get funding for their degrees. When (say) an anonymous person without the courage to provide their name -- as I've done since I came online in 2004 -- starts offering confidential Brown admissions data with no sourcing, gets testy when the data is noted to be (as it was) highly dubious in terms of historical trends, sends me obscene private messages, and (above all) simultaneously claims to a) not care about the MFA-research project, and b) know more about MFA data than I do, what's an appropriate response in that situation?
Likewise, what's the appropriate way for me to treat you? You have no accountability for anything you say here, as you refuse to use your real name. In my field, the law, that is actually the epitome of cowardice -- it is precisely the sort of unwillingness to stand up and be counted that is anathema to what being a public defender (as I was) means. Should I show you respect when you've shown us zero respect here by operating from behind the cloak of anonymity? When you've impugned my motives from behind that cloak without knowing me? Can you explain what social duty I owe you, as someone who put himself on the line for years as an attorney in front of juries -- and is typically addressed as Attorney Abramson -- and is now ridiculed by someone one step above a spam-bot? You need to consider your behavior and your presumption before you presume to judge me. I apologized to you earlier and I meant it -- it's classless to use that as an opening for attack.
Again, best of luck with your applications.
S.
Hi all,
Just wondering if anyone else's MyUM website (University of Miami) shows that they are missing writing samples and recommendations.
Peace.
Ryan
@Honeybadger
Thanks for the follow up clarification. One never knows on the web - so, that the posts were so similar caught me and was cause for suspect. yadayadayada
@Everyone involved with Minnesota and Michigan in fiction,
As far as I can see, we've not heard of any notices from Minnesota waitlisting fictioneers, yes???
And Re: Michigan, ditto. Plus, there remains some confusion around what the person on the phone meant by "done with calls" - was it for the day, or for the acceptances, with waitlisters in the wings for Monday? It's plausible to me that it is both.
Re: Iowa State and others comments on not applying because of not understanding if they fit in with their "environmental" aspect, me too. If I'm doing this next year, I'll explore that more. That was swell of Dean B. to come here with his encouragement and support.
RE: Potter, the lovely labrador at my side, he is still pretty low key, not his chipper Labrador self. Cross your fingers and toes - 'cause he is the epitome of sweetness. Hard to bear his being sick. Thanks.
@Farrah,
Appreciate your genuine and polite response. I do try to keep up with all the messages, but it gets a bit overwhelming.
take good care and best!
P.S. Re: the Brown numbers. The Brown data cross-checked with other info, that's one of the two reasons I took the total app data (also, that was the only data the OP confirmed without hesitation as fact; I pointed out in a P&W post the vacillation on the other information, noting, in effect, the likelihood it was mere hearsay). My standard in updating TSE is simple: Is it more likely than not that this data is more accurate than what I had previously? If it is, I add it, and that was the case here. As to your broader concerns about the rankings, they've been answered by me dozens of times since 2007 on this site -- if you're genuinely interested in a response I suggest you peruse the archives. But repeating myself for the hundredth time because someone hasn't read this site for very long, particularly when that someone won't do me the courtesy of identifying who they are -- and who repeatedly slanders me from a place of facelessness -- is not high on my list of priorities, and I don't think that's a particularly odd or standoffish view to take. It's just sound reasoning and basic fairness to self.
@ Daffron, happy to help. :)
Okay, it's nearly 5 here in the Midwest. I've been distracting myself with a marathon viewing of Weeds this afternoon; time to add a glass of wine to the mix.
Cheers to all who had good news this week, bottoms up to the rest!
@Woon
You'd have to check with Chris at DH on that, I'm not running the admissions response data-sheet anymore. If I'm not mistaken, though, the OP's claims of admission to Iowa and Michigan coincided with others making similar claims? My thinking, I suppose, is that either the OP is authentic -- however, um, strange -- or else s/he is simply piggy-backing on authentic notifications, in which case there's no harm to the data beyond the annoyance of someone being kind of a douchebag.
And I don't mean the way I'm a douchebag, I mean a different way.
;-)
S.
@ Mostly Swell
Somewhere, several hundred posts back, I believe one person posted a Minnesota waitlist status for fiction. I think his name was... Andrew? That might be on a different blog or thread or something, though.
@ Mostly Swell: No Minnesota Wait-lists in fiction from what I’ve seen. Unsure about Michigan.
A Few Douchebag Varieties for Reference:
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:c1SSFOIG5z7leM:http://images.vimeo.com/11/47/66/114766169/114766169_75.jpg (Thanks to Tao Lin)
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:c1SSFOIG5z7leM:http://images.vimeo.com/11/47/66/114766169/114766169_75.jpg
http://trinityeyes.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/wolfowitz_wideweb__470x4210.jpg
etc.
(All in good fun, btw... nothing that is being said here about the rankings hasn't been said before/elsewhere better... everyone chill out and wait to hear from your schools, it is enough stress in and of itself.... )
Best All,
Aaron
Now seems like the perfect time to post this:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/01/29/notes012910.DTL
Hope everyone's having a good Saturday!
@Hilary
I read Joy's blog every week..I actually commented on that entry...mentioned getting my first few rejections this week haha
You were spot on sharing this w/ us :)
A few things:
1. I love Kenneth Goldsmith. I've written poems about him which could very well be considered "uncreative writing," though mostly unintentionally, unfortunately. Ha.
2. I think we all need to put on some happy pants for a while. My smoke alarms keep going off for no reason (their favorite time to sound is in the middle of the night) so if I can maintain a decent attitude, I imagine many of you can also.
3. I would argue that Penn is the sporty ivy, at least with the more mainstream sports.
@ Aaron Apps and Mostly Swell
I just checked, and an 'Andrew' did post a waitlist at Minnesota in the last mailbag, but he never specified whether it was fiction or poetry.
Congrats to all folks who received Iowa/Michigan/CSU/UNCW (and other programs I know I'm forgetting) acceptances!
@ Rose:
Ah, thanks for the clarification. Maybe ‘Andrew’ will post and let those interested know what’s up.
@ burlaper:
The most entertaining part of Goldsmith is the violent reactions people have to the very idea of him. Hilarious.
“Sporty Ivy…” Is that like “Sporty Spice?” Sorry, couldn’t help myself for some strange reason.
As a Dartmouth guy I'll concede that Penn is the "sporty" Ivy -- up in Hanover we thought of ourselves as the "outdoorsy" Ivy. A slight but (to us) important distinction.
S.
@burlaper - I used to have the same problem with my smoke alarms and finally had to change them out.
You might be right about Penn. I always thought of Dartmouth as the sporty, but maybe it's more the frat/jock ivy. I think Penn is the state school of the ivies, not meant pejoratively...and I always forget its any ivy league school until someone brings it up.
@Seth - I don't know why you keep answering the trolls. It is informative, but you've posted most of the information, here or on TSE, for those who feel strongly enough about your methodology, agenda, whatever, to do their own research.
Cheers!
“Outdoorsy Spice”
@Rose and Aaron Apps
Thanks. So, I think it's safe to say, aside from "It ain't over 'til it's over" is that these two schools have yet to even complete their initial notification. Michigan, for sure, and Minnesota, probably. (in fiction.)
and the happy pants suggestion is well taken. The above mentioned is enough that I can put this aside 'til Monday. And even then, I aim for an even keel. I, at least, know of some unknowns. And, surely as Donald Rumsfeld, there are unknowns that are unknown. (which is not just cause for war, BTW. But that's old old old hat.)
OK, grammar
And, as Donald Rumsfeld said, and as sure he was, there are unknowns that are unknown.
But my zen poems book by Donald Rumsfeld was not returned to me last Fall. Alas. The quote is probably on the web somewhere.
Wait, Seth, you went to Dartmouth?!?! I graduated in '08!!!!!!!!!!!!!
for those following my tangential thinking and still interested:
unknown unknowns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_unknown
@frankish
I've had the verbal runs -- a.k.a. verbal diarrhea -- for about 32 years now. Ever since I made my first opening argument, when I was 2 y.o. I love love love verbal disputation (hence the whole law school thing). I hesitate to admit it, because it's, you know, pathetic and everything, but I actually enjoy the verbal sparring. It keeps the mind agile (in theory).
Not that I can ever find my car keys...
;-)
S.
@Seth - Got it. As long as you're enjoying yourself.
As I get old(er), I find that I just can't be bothered to argue anymore unless the adversary is really challenging my beliefs. Then again, I've always been lazy. ;)
Cheers!
PS @ frankish: This may sound ridiculous, but it's also worth mentioning that much of my poetics is based on the rhythm and sound of classical rhetoric -- so when I dispute with naysayers here I'm actually working on my poetics as well as trying to clear things up re: the rankings.
@ Meredith
Well met! Class of '98, veteran of Russell Rage, the Gold Coast, the Choates, the oft-regretted trip to Full Fare (which I believe they closed down for health reasons), editorials for the Daily D, horse-riding lessons for the gym component (what the hell was I thinking??), the Squash Club, EBAs, the "swim test," DOC orientation... fond memories. Hope you enjoyed it there also. I go back every once in a while to go to Leede and see the boys get cremated in basketball -- I was a WDCR disc jockey, talk-show host, and color commentator for men's basketball for years. Err -- this is making me sound like an enormous tool, isn't it... well...
Be well,
S.
Seth,
Since you seem to be active at this moment, Can I ask you if you have any thoughts about Florida Atlantic and why the hell nobody seems to apply there? Or are they, they're just not active online? Do you know how many students they admit or how big the class is? Do you know anything about their selectivity? Or anything else?
@ Seth
wooo!!! I myself am a veteran of the Choates (little 3rd floor), THE LODGE (lol... they tore it down the year after I moved out), Gold Coast, and one of the new dorms that's now next to the med school (yuck). I was ARts editor at the D for two years, was in Film society, MOntage, Friday Night Rock... a lot of these things began after your time, I now realize. CW profs - Gary Lenhart, C. Tudish (my semi-mom), Bill Phillips... and Cleopatra Mathis!!! I bet you had her...? she's the resident legend
my PE's included cross country skiing (during which I got lost on the golf course for a few hours... Yeah, I'm from Florida, what can I say?), and I took the swim test a week before graduation. Not kidding. (I missed my DOC trip b/c I was stuck in Hurricane Frances of Aug. 2004... that bitch). I miss Hanover wholesomeness/heavy-drinking, for realz. I've been all nostalgic recently, esp. now with the Olympics... a Big Green skiier won a bronze yesterday! woo!
Anyway, it brings me great joy to know you're a veteran of the "drunk Ivy" too. It makes me think there's some sort of luck on my side during this MFA app hell. (I applied to 14 schools... so far just a UT rejection and 3 assumed rejections from Vandy, Iowa, and Michigan... and now maybe UNCW?! Kill me now). But this blog helped me a lot when I was deciding where to apply, how to apply, etc. So thank yooooou!
Big Green hug and/or high-five (I'll give you a high-five if you think a hug would be creepy),
Meredith Fraser '08 (!)
@burlaper
Concerning your smoke alarms, they may need to be dusted. Here in Arizona, we have nothing if not abundant dust, and every now and again it's necessary to take down the smoke detectors, remove their covers, and attack the dust with a can of compressed air.
The little gizmos work via a gap between a low-grade radioisotope (typically Americium) and a detector. Smoke in air is colloidal, and the particulates in smoke block the alpha particles from registering with the detector. Dust interacts with air very similarly, hence the false alarms.
That's probably too much information, but now everybody understands why I like to write poems involving science. =)
Sh*& Xataro, I didn't know that about you!
@Seth & @Meredith - Ha! Class of '02 and another Choates resident, here.
Dartmouth was largely a lucky accident for me. I didn't even want to visit or apply, but I was in the area with my mom on a college visit trip, and my dad made us go. I whined the whole way, because I wanted Brown first or Harvard second. I got in at both, but then the guide at Brown spent the entire tour making fun of my outfit, which did not leave me with a very good impression.
When we got to Dartmouth it was the only warm, sunny day of the entire trip, and the tour guide and I were wearing identical outfits. My mom sunned on the Green while I took the tour. Afterwards I came back and was like: "I don't know. It seemed awesome, but in the Fiske Guide it sounded so gross and fratty."
And suddenly the most beautiful boy I had ever seen walked up and handed me a tiny labrador puppy. "Do you want him?" he asked. "We can take dogs to class here."
I was like, "OK, universe, I get it."
@Dolores Humbert -- Congratulations! Fort Collins should be an incredible college town. I'm so happy for you.
@Dartmouth grads
So I wanted to remain relatively anonymous (first-name only), but I have to out myself, at least to Meredith Fraser '08. Hey! It's Jenna '08. From David Ehrlich's infamous freshmen seminar. Purple turtleneck, vegan apple cake, teenage mutant ninja turtles, oh my. To you other Dartmouth kids, I was a Choates resident, Brown 3rd floor. Also lived in Mid-Mass (Dr. Seuss's former room!) and Richardson with a beautiful view of Baker Tower. Cool that there are so many of us here!
I'm definitely rooting for Dartmouth at the Winter Olympics as if it were a country (yes to the outdoorsy reputation...we have our own skiway for goodness sake). Andrew Weibrecht '09 with the bronze last night, Ben Koons '08 briefly leading the 30K today. Their success allows me to forget my failure.
(Also, since I know you're an incredible writer and a generally awesome person, Meredith, somehow my own rejections seem more reasonable)
Dartmouth alums, I must say that Drinking Time was one of the most entertaining Youtube videos ever.
My former roommate ('06 grad) shared the wealth... and now I shall continue in that same spirit of generosity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8da7m3fiBM&feature=related
@Ryan - I think Univ. of Miami takes a while to upload confirmation for documents submitted. I had a letter of rec. not 'post' for a few weeks after it was sent. Maybe you can call to confirm....
@cb: I got a call midday on the 19th.
Wow, I was away from home/a computer for the past twenty-four hours, and I’ve missed a lot on here, it seems. On the notification/acceptance front, it looks like not much has happened in the past day, but congratulations to everyone who was accepted on Friday, it seemed like there were quite a few of you!
Re: MFA Blues
In skimming through the past two hundred or so comments, I noticed a nice message from one of the faculty members at Iowa State (Dean B, I think it was), essentially encouraging all of us to continue writing, reading, etc. regardless of whether or not we are accepted into an MFA program. A few of you have made similar comments over the past few weeks, and I guess I just want to say thank you. Truly, I mean that.
Throughout this whole process I’ve tried to remain sort of emotionally guarded/unattached, because, like all of you, I know how competitive and really just crazy these programs are, and I know that in all likelihood I will not get accepted anywhere this time around. I know that. But sometimes it is hard, you know, when you have spent so much time applying to places and, more than that, when you have hoped for something so badly.
I was having one of those horribly depressing days on Friday (after calling UMass and receiving notice of my official rejection from their program)…literally just broke down and cried, called my mom, cried some more, took a quiz (which, needless to say, did not seem to go all that well), and cried some more. Yeahhh, not such a good day. And it is not even the rejection that stings so much (because, let’s face it, rejection is something that all writers have to get used to)—but more just the realization that I will probably NOT be starting at an MFA program in the fall, will not have the chance to become part of the amazing writing community/environment that I have dreamt of for the past six months, and will not be dedicating the next three years of my life solely to writing. And that is disappointing—so, very disappointing—because it is something that I was really looking forward to.
(MFA Blues continued...)
However, as I think all of us know and many of you have pointed out, you do not need to go to an MFA program to write. That is one of the wonderful things about our craft—that we can do it anywhere, with any/all types of backgrounds, at any walk of life. If you want to be a doctor, you have to go to med school. To be a lawyer, you have to go to law school. But to be a writer, all you have to do is write! And one of the surest ways to improve as a writer is to read more, write more, and just live more, all of which can be done (arguably, to an even greater extent) outside of the context of an MFA program.
Obviously the MFA does provide incredible opportunities for writers—I am certainly not saying that it doesn’t—but it is not the only opportunity out there that enables writers to perform and improve at their craft. So rejections from MFA programs, rather than dashing ones hopes of being a writer, should make him/her look to those other opportunities—joining a local writing group, submitting work to literary magazines, working at some random/amazing/horrible job that grants the writer time to write while providing him/her with unique life experiences that may serve as sources of inspiration down the road, etc.—as valuable alternatives to an MFA program (at least for the time being).
So that is my Plan B (which is increasingly looking like a Plan A...). If I do not get accepted into an MFA program, I will write. I will submit work to magazines and seriously get to work on the two novels I have going. I might move somewhere and start a random job (a craigslist posting for a professional tree-climber/trimmer in Oregon is looking particularly appealing at the moment; starting a bakery also sounds cool :P), and will probably apply to MFA programs sometime in the future, although not until I feel like I am really ready to get the most out of the experience (which, to be honest, I am not sure I am right now).
Alright, that is all. I’m sorry that this message was so long and possibly rambling, it just helps me a little to write this all down.
Good luck to all, and to those already accepted, congratulations again!
Best,
Sarah
Sorry to everyone else for turning this into a Dartmouth forum.
@ Dartmouth Grads/ Seth
Seth, you worked with me to sort out my application list and I you helped me a lot. You brought my attention to a couple of well funded programs I wouldn't have known about otherwise. I'm in at Ohio and VT I give you a lot of the credit - wouldn't even have considered Columbus if you hadn't urged me to.
Jenna and Meredith, good to hear some fellow '08's are still writing - I really enjoyed our class's Creative Writing group. I assume you're both applying to MFA programs this year since you're on this blog. Best of luck to you.
@Dolores Humbert: Congrats!
I'm a Coloradan. I went to University of Colorado for undergrad, but my college boyfriend went to CSU, so I lived in "The Fort" (as locals call it) for 6 months after graduating (Spring '06). I'd be happy to answer any location questions. It's a lovely college town and a nice community in which to write and be inspired.
Feel free to email me with any questions!
sararmarshall [at] gmail [dot] com
@Sarah
Well said. Something I find helpful is reading or listening to interviews and conversations with established writers. There are so many well thought of writers who are featured in places like The Lannan Foundation's Readings & Conversations series - whose podcasts you can subscribe to off of iTunes or their own website. Mary Oliver, for instance, speaks of her many years waiting tables while practicing her writing. She purposefully took a job that didn't tax her mind a whole lot, so she could save her thinking energy, so to speak, for writing. (paraphrasing)
So, I'm with you. I still don't know if I'll get into a program this year, but I do know that I will continue to write. And I have much to write about.
I really must put a playlist together. My obstacle is that I've updated OS-X and the new version has really slowed down my iTunes. But maybe I'll get it done anywayzzz. (The Blues is my Business and Business is Good.) So, no worries about the long speech. So many of us are with you in what you've said, based on what I've read on these pages of late.
Be well. And of course, I hope to be reading other news from you and sharing other news for myself. (;
(Back to King Lear. Seminar is over tomorrow.)
Seth I got to know about an 'MFA in Fiction' because I got an opportunity to study two semesters fiction writing at Harvard Extension as my husband was studying at HBS and thereafter my professors encouraged me to apply even though I'm back to my work and life India. I just want to thank you so much for creating this blog. And though I'm still waiting for responses from the Univ's - whatever the outcome I want you to know that your contribution is priceless. Thanks so much....
@Riah thanks for the info
@Trilbe would love to read your poetry...
@Seth:
I did not go to Dartmouth, so we'll not have the chance to commune and clank champagne flutes. I just wanted to say, as I hope and assume so many others do, your hard work is invaluable to me. Also, I've been genuinely impressed by your cool, forgiving and diplomatic conduct on this and other fora.
I just caught up on the numbers debate (saga?) and became increasingly irritated by each post.
@RUDE NAYSAYER: It's both inappropriate and audacious to bust into this community and smear its moderator/founder/biggest cheerleader. If you have a personal distaste for Seth's methods or you've constructed some ill interpretation of his motives, buzz off!
Let's try working with a hypothetical: YOU, Animalistic, start a blog called - say - animalistic.blogspot.com where you begin to compile various data on...um...internet behavior vs. real world behavior. You compile this data for 5 years, consulting with the nation's best neuroscientists, psychoanalysts, communication experts, what-have-you. You garner thousands of interested readers who learn from and begin to use your respected data. You communicate with hundreds of people a day, debunking myths, updating spread sheets, cross-referencing, fact-checking and you do this for next to no money because you LOVE it and regard your research as a noble pursuit. Your work is so well-received that its published in a leading psychology journal. Then, one day, some stranger bounds into your online community, your BLOG and insists you don't know what you're talking about. They tell you that while they know "next to nothing about statistics", yours are nonsense. What's worse, its online! After doing so much thankless work, some little asshole is going to come in your dance space and try to tell you that you lack decorum when you've been slightly flustered by their misinformed, left field, juvenile assumptions.
Empathy is clearly harder for some to grasp than others.
Oh, and balls are remarkably easy to find ON THE INTERNET.
congrats, dolores humbert!
@sarah: i agree, very well said. i could practically have written the first part of your post myself.
@franny: did you apply to any schools in colorado? i almost applied to CSU and then regretted not adding it to my list. anyway, if i do end up doing this again next year, i think one of the colorado schools will be on my list.
@ Franny:
You're awesome.
Balls:
http://photos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs146.snc3/17331_1329563960755_1280662750_975569_1685213_n.jpg
Hi, beedeecee!
I did. I applied to both CSU and University of Colorado. It's been mum on both fronts, but I like both programs quite a bit. Are you a poet or fiction writer? I applied in poetry. I should mention, however, that I studied Political Science and Gender History at CU, not creative writing. I didn't really believe in my writing at age 18.
CU has put a significant amount of effort into improving their MFA. I hadn't considered applying until this year. Their recent hires are AWESOME. They just hired Noah Eli Gordon who is young, but incredibly prolific in his young career. Also, since I was an undergrad there, I am enamored of the campus and the environment. It's BEAUTIFUL. My boyfriend is a tenured philosopher at CU, so it would be lovely for us if I could stay here.
At CSU, I love Dan Beachy-Quick. It's a nice program and Ft. Collins is a nice place (though it's no Boulder).
I highly recommend both places. They are becoming better appreciated thanks, in part, to Seth's due attention to their funding and faculties. Where else did you apply??
@Aaron Apps
You are baddddd!!!!
And, did you?? Really?
@ Aaron Apps: I just snort-laughed. Also, I should have you know I just bought my boyfriend a birthday card that reads "Balls are funny."
@Mostly Swell: Was it you whose pup was sick??
@Franny
yes.
you can find his pix on one of my posts at Driftless - it's been a few days since I posted, though, so you'll have to scroll.
or to make it easier, I just unblocked my profile. The image is better. I really should add things to that profile. Oh well.
@Mostly Swell: I'm so sorry! It's so awful to see a puppy suffer. Any update?
Ack! Those eyes are smiling! It's gross how much I love dogs. I totally sympathize.
My dad and I had to put down a family dog (Great Dane - she came down with Bloat) last weekend and I'm still sick over it. I hated to see her in so much pain.
I hope your pup is ok. Take care.
Well, not much of an update. He's on a bland diet - the contents of which sound fantastic if one is a dog: chicken, rice, chicken broth. Bland?? LOL
And a few medications.
The update is that he's just lying around, very lethargic for an ordinarily spry fella. If he's not better by Monday morning, he goes back in for them to check his labs.
Thanks for asking.
@mostly swell: that is one cute puppers. i hope he is getting better!
@franny: oh, good luck to you! CU looked like such a wonderful program, too. and (sadly) i don't know much about poetry, but somehow came across some of noah eli gordon's work and i was quite impressed.
i'm a fiction writer. i applied to wisconsin (rejected), syracuse (assumed rejection), michigan (ditto), george mason, and brown. yes, i could quite likely be doing this again next year. i guess it won't be so bad since i'll have more experience and better research my schools.
i think i've asked you before, but where did you apply?
Ahhh, your puppy is in my thoughts. There is nothing/nobody that makes me smile faster than a doggie.
Last weekend?! Oh, you poor baby. That is so hard.
I had to put his older sister down two years ago. I know he misses her, because everytime we see a white dog, especially a lab, his tail goes up. Otherwise, he's not interested in other dogs - they tend to steal his tennis ball. lol
Thanks to all of you for asking. He's the only family I have, so it's especially not easy to see him sick. He'll be 11 in April. So, this could be something real. Ya know? But that pix was taken last Oct - so, you see he's been young all of his life.
It's getting late for me. I'll check in again tomorrow. Thanks again.
@amanda: YOU are awesome! And so is your poetry.
@Mostly Swell: It's so sad when they're lethargic. All I do is say "Sophie, want a treat? A treat?? Baby, want a TREAT?" in the most terrifying Munchausen by Proxy, cloying mommy voice ever when my dog is like that. Take care. I hope it's something small.
@beedeecee: I applied to CU, CSU, Vanderbilt (why?) and Houston. Had I more funds, I'd have added UNCW, UC Irvine (which I've heard nothing about this season), UMass, etc. It's so weird that I applied to Vanderbilt. I'm not crazy about the south and the program is so small and selective. At least it was free (mostly). I'll be bummed if I have to apply again, but my experience this year would inform a whole new organization system and set of schools. Good luck with your remaining schools!
@ Mostly Swell - Was it you who asked why King Lear divided his kingdom? If not, I will have to pretend that it was you.
I think Lear divides his kingdom out of the folly of old age. I don't have the text in front of me, so can't cite quotes. But it's his belief in a "father knows best" frame that will somehow be honored by his children - ie, that they won't behave as he has behaved and will somehow act in a fair manner. He has become sentimental in his belief that because he dealt with the wicked nature of man, then somehow the next generation will somehow transcend it, perhaps thanks to his labors. That's why he can't bear Cordelia's truth-telling. It goes against the illusions he has built up, which coddle both his sense of accomplishment and his sense of progress, which are both further boosted by fatherly love. So it's not just stupidity that causes him to divide the kingdom (again, I'm assuming that you said this); it's his soppy belief that somehow the wicked and fallen nature of man will end with him, and that his own machinations in life have some larger meaning.
AHHHH!!!! Dartmouth reunion!!!
JENNA! HOLY... MOTHER! AHHHH I can't believe you're THAT Jenna ::overwhelmingly-happy-to-see-you hug:: how many schools are you applying to?! (email me! meredith.c.fraser(at)gmail) in any case, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!!! Best of luck, my dear! Oh geeez, it would be good to talk to you...
Mike Larson, Novelist extraordinaire! You were to O'Malley as I was to Catherine. How do you like your program so far? feel free to email me anytime too!
Awww, okay, Dartmouth writing friends. I feel all warm and drunk with happiness right now. MMMmmmm yaaaay
Hey guys and girls, I know you think that not getting into a program will be the death of your writing, but you should really consider all the amazing writers who did not have MFAs.
Keep reading and writing, because that is what matters, not the degree. Though I have to agree that a community of peers is vastly beneficial, I prefer the community of great books.
Good luck!
Anyone have any ideas about Texas State? I saw that last year they notified on the 23rd for Fiction by mail. Has anyone been keeping up with that?
subscribing
@Sarah
Re: MFA Blues/Coping with rejection
Ever since I filled out my first application, I’ve thought about how I might cope with universal MFA rejection. I figured it would be hard, so I started working up my mental toughness to avoid several months of sitting in a room with my unhealthy friends Jack Daniels and Ben and Jerrys. It sounds like you’ve already figured out everything I came up with though, so I’ll spare you the redundancy of our collective thoughts.
I will say, however, that I can sort of empathize with the feeling. Considering that you just wrote a “It’s over for me” post in February, I’m guessing we’re kind of the same. I live a little too much in the future and tend to feel the consequences of events that have not happened to me yet (or ever).
Anyway, I just wanted to acknowledge your post. If you do wind up getting rejected everywhere, I’m sure that within a few months you’ll be turning this into a positive. Or maybe you'll be too busy to even think about it. Either way, you’ll be fine.
@Sam N. and Sarah - I sometimes swipe an argument from my musical practice for solace in this accept/reject process (where I too tend to preemptive doom and assumed failure). The argument is, "Mozart didn't know he was Mozart." In other words, the real-life W. A. Mozart probably knew he was a top rank professional composer in his day - he probably understood that he was also a major innovator. He was a huge prodigy - but there are tons of musical prodigies, actually. Mozart knew he was good, sure, but he didn't know he would be one of the two or three key figures (maybe Bach, Mozart, Beethoven?) in Western classical music. He didn't know anything about Mostly Mozart, or the other festivals, or any of it. Though the play "Amadeus" casts this retrospective light where Salieri somehow knows he's minor and Mozart is major (no pun intended), Salieri is quite a good composer, actually, and probably was equally celebrated in his day, and is being revived today too.
Or take Einstein commenting on his math skills as a young man - "I was no Einstein."
Or John Keats, who on the one hand thought that he would be one of the major English poets, but on the other died with barely any publication of his work and almost uniformly negative reviews of what had been published.
Anyway, the solace I draw is that even the greats aren't protected from the daily struggles - whatever their day's equivalent was to trying to get into an MFA program - as they tried to support their practice, hustle, and deal with the ins and outs of their day. The way we are taught, their lives seem inevitable and logical in retrospect, but probably did not seem so to them. This accept/reject thing is one aspect of the on-the-ground struggle of trying to make it, and it really pays to take the long view.
The other thing is, I think ultimate satisfaction has to come only from doing the work each day. Rewards, encouragement, positive feedback, and money are nice byproducts, but I have heard time and again from working artists that such accolades and tangible support often fade away or come in waves, and in between those waves, only practice gets you through.
This is only my second post so I'm a newbie who also is somewhat blog-post-usage-challeneged. I'm tying to respond to a post by someone named Ryan about U of Miami, which incidentally is the school I accidentally left off my list in an email yesterday.
Ryan, if you see this, everything on my UM page is cool and up-to-date. Have you called them? There's someone there named Lydia who was very nice and very helpful to me. I'd recommend asking for her.
Anybody else hear anything from Miami? If so, by what means? (email, phone, etc...)
Thanks.
and good luck Ryan. Who knows maybe we'll both be reading and writing in sunny 70 degree weather at this time next year!
@Jamie
Yes, it was I that mentioned the question of "why King Lear would do such a stupid thing" but the question was posed by the leader of the seminar, and the discussion had been taking place for 45 minutes when I came into it.
Since it was a two hour session intended to cover all of Act I, I was taken aback by their pursuit of an answer to "why" a fictional character behaved in such a manner, as though we could think our way into the answer, even when the text does not give us his back-story. There are intimations made by several characters about King Lear's state of mind being on the decline, but that's not where the discussion went. They were talking about his political motives. To me, it seemed that without further information, we could only postulate. They were approaching the character as though these events were historically accurate, whereas I saw these opening scenes as the set up for what's to come.
The person leading the seminar was operating on the premise that Shakespeare tied every loose end together, even if it wasn't evident in the text itself. "Afterall, this is Shakespeare." And so, folks were adding all sorts of ideas, as though they could think their way into the truth of what a man intended 400 years ago.
My college class on Shakespeare was taught by a Shakespeare scholar and she was very clear that, first and foremost, Shakespeare was in the entertainment biz. She spoke of the pressure he was under to keep producing plays. He wasn't writing for posterity nor did he have a clue that his genius would be studied or that these gaps in character information would be so hotly debated for eons. So, I was surprised to find myself among people who believed there were answers to be had.
My fascination with Shakespeare is in how close his portrayal of character's are to my own experiences with people. To me, King Lear lacked an internal sense of who he was. His folly was in acting impulsively and without regard for his own experience of his three daughters. His break down on the heath leads him to realize that without his title as King, he doesn't know who he is. His subsequent journey is one of self-discovery.
Participants were also talking about how they didn't "like" Cordelia and Kent or "agree" with what they did, which was surprising, but also seemed moot. To put it succinctly, I believe people do what they do because of who they are. But then, I'm a literary writer who enjoys character driven plot. LOL
Is anyone else experiencing an increase in wakeful nights? LOL
Thanks, Jamie, for bringing this up. I enjoyed the opportunity to share my views, uninterrupted. Of course, I have no idea if anyone at all has stuck with me through this mini impromptu essay. And I welcome discussion if anyone so desires to jump in. (I'm headed back to bed now, though.)
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