Don't let the stress cripple your flow. Even if you can only get one line down each day, then perhaps you'll have a completed poem in a couple weeks.
On certain crazy busy days, I can only write in my head. Putting it all down on paper is agonizingly difficult for me. So, you're not alone. Just don't give up.
Yeah, I spent a good amount of time trying to decode what exactly Indiana says in that notice. Finally, just one sentence clinched the win in favour of hard copies:
"ALL MATERIALS ARE TO BE SENT DIRECTLY TO HEATHER STEELE AT THE ADDRESS NOTED!"
The third bullet point says "three letters of recommendation".
Once I had decided it was hard-copies, I went back and re-read the notice and the paragraph after it, and it sounds like they want hard-copies.
Try it and let me know.
Btw, I've discovered that Indiana's language is hard to understand in most of their literature, including in their application.
Hi everyone, Hope you're staying relatively sane. I'm just now starting to enter my recommenders' information into the online applications, and discovered that at least a few schools-- so far, Texas and Indiana-Bloomington-- won't send the email to my recommenders giving them access to the system until I've completed and submitted my application. Wha?! I'd planned to let them do their letters while I take my time focusing on the writing sample and personal statement, but now it seems they can't even upload their letters until I'm completely done. I'm going to rant for a second and say that I think that's a ridiculous set-up for the system, and I'm also just annoyed because I told all my recommenders to expect those emails very soon, which won't be the case for at least a few schools. Anyone else run into this issue? Any tips? I know the loophole would be to just let my recommenders send hard copy letters via snail-mail, but I've already geared them up to submit entirely online and I don't want to confuse or inconvenience them by changing it now. SOS!
Hello--just FYI, there is a spammer out there using this blog subscription and I'm getting them from 2008 mailbag comments. The name is "jiang" and it's commercials for jewelry.
My new (probably the 4th of its kind) final list... (with a little room for adjustment) for poetry.
For sure (and in no particular order):
Wisconsin-Madison Texas-Michener Michigan-Ann Arbor Cornell Washington U-Saint Louis Iowa-Writers Workshop Indiana-Bloomington Alabama Illinois-Urbana-Champaign Virginia Tech Arkansas Ohio State Massachusetts-Amherst
Undecided (and would love some insight into these (especially from current students or people who have made the choice between these four) - I'd be willing to apply to 2 out of the 4 listed here):
I've run into the same issue with some of my recommendations, but taking a closer look I don't think it's quite as big a hassle as I first thought it was. For many schools, you need to finish the general grad online application before they'll e-mail your recommenders, but you don't need to have every single item from your app in (so you can still send your writing sample, transcripts, etc. later). You would have to pay the app fee and maybe include your SOP, but its mostly just name/address stuff. But admittedly, I don't know if this is the same at every school.
To get in on the other conversation, I have to have silence when I write. I admire people who can focus with music on, but I just can't do it. And I also admire those that handwrite (or can handwrite) their work, but everytime I try it's just a slog. I like the idea of writing out a story by hand way more than I like the actual practice of doing it.
I've been overwhelmed (in a good way) by the number of people emailing to see my statements of purpose and application stories. I just wanted to re-iterate that the offer is still out there for those interested. I really wish someone had done this last year, and I completely understand the craziness (and subjectiveness) of this process. (For those who don't know, I'm in my first year at the MFA program at the University of Michigan, for fiction).
I've also had a bunch of people asking for more information about Michigan. I know it can kinda rub people the wrong way to post here about how amazingly awesome the program is! So I'm not going to do that. :-)
You guys are all intelligent people who have researched and chosen schools for your own personal reasons, but if you're on the fence about Michigan, or are just curious, email me.
I'm going to take all of those questions, do a detailed write-up, and then email it to anyone interested. Hopefully this will help answer any lingering questions about Michigan without any blog awkwardness.
My email address is still active in my profile - I just ask that you use the subject line to explain if you're looking for application materials or if you have a Michigan question. If it's both mixed in one email, don't worry, I'm sure I can figure it out.
I have to listen to music, but it has to be a certain kind depending on the tone of what I'm writing. So quiet/angst music for angst writing, happier music for happier writing.
I just moved out to Montana a couple months ago. I live in Billings, which is the largest city in Montana with about 100,000 people, and it is nothing like a big city. If you're hoping for a lot of "civilization" you're not moving to the best place. However, Montana is beautiful and Missoula is in one of the prettiest parts of the state. There are tons of mountains to climb and trails to hike if you're into that sort of thing (I wasn't before I moved out here and now I can't get enough of it). P.S. I didn't believe it before I moved here but the sky is actually bigger. :)
In my second year of my MFA now and remembering the 2 years I spent doing this applications nonsense. Best of luck to all of you, for sure.
I mostly stopped in to monitor the Columbia/South Carolina drama. As a South Carolina student, I just want to reiterate that we're a wonderful place, and if you're looking for somewhere with full funding, great cost of living, small faculty (and great faculty!) to student ration, and teaching experience, there's really no reason we shouldn't be on your list.
I promise, South Carolina's not so bad as it looks from the outside. I made the choice to pick a school I could grow in, and it was definitely the right back. Low competition among students yields to a lot of healthy conversation and encouragement, and as my last bit of advice: don't pick a school until you've met its students. My classmates have been an unbelievably integral part of the experience.
Anyway, like I said, best of luck, and do feel free to shoot me an email if you have any questions about Carolina.
In my second year of my MFA now and remembering the 2 years I spent doing this applications nonsense. Best of luck to all of you, for sure.
I mostly stopped in to monitor the Columbia/South Carolina drama. As a South Carolina student, I just want to reiterate that we're a wonderful place, and if you're looking for somewhere with full funding, great cost of living, small faculty (and great faculty!) to student ration, and teaching experience, there's really no reason we shouldn't be on your list.
I promise, South Carolina's not so bad as it looks from the outside. I made the choice to pick a school I could grow in, and it was definitely the right back. Low competition among students yields to a lot of healthy conversation and encouragement, and as my last bit of advice: don't pick a school until you've met its students. My classmates have been an unbelievably integral part of the experience.
Anyway, like I said, best of luck, and do feel free to shoot me an email if you have any questions about Carolina.
I just added up the costs of applying (application fees + gre scores [above the 4 free ones] + transcripts [from 6 schools / average of $38 per set] and if I apply to all the programs on my list (above) it will cost me $1447.
Pardon me while I take myself to the emergency room to get treated for the heart attack I just had.
I sure wish that more schools would take the humane approach like Arkansas.
Still trying to decide on whether it would be worth applying to 2 of the other 4 on my list (Mississippi, Syracuse, Purdue or LSU).
This is my first (and probably only) year applying to M.F.A. programs. (I'm applying in poetry.) I'm also applying to a couple of M.A. programs as back up. I want to be in grad school next fall. I'm 40, and I just can't put it off any longer. Full steam ahead!
Here's my Huffington Postresponse to Professor Hospital's letter.
Best, Seth
P.S. If you like the article I hope you'll pass it along via Twitter, Facebook, et. al. I'm trying to get the word out that this e-mail was unfair to USC and unduly fawning re: Columbia.
For those of you who have asked about Ohio State, I just thought I'd put in a plug. I'm currently a third year in fiction. We are fully funded (you won't necessarily live high on the hog, but Columbus is a cheap, diverse city with a lot going on, and your stipend will certainly allow you to get by). Several students each year receive graduate fellowships so that they don't have to teach their first year. There are also a few thesis fellowships available to third years.
Our faculty is phenomenal--friendly, accessible, super supportive, and--at least for fiction (haven't taken poetry), are all great teachers. This also goes for nonfiction, since three fiction faculty also teach nonfiction. We also have some great visiting writers and two ongoing reading series--a less formal one for students and then also a student/faculty reading.
Our current students and grads have been publishing some exciting places--Narrative, Granta, and others, as well as at least one mention in Best American Essays, for starters.
It's a really great place. The student body is not too large but not tiny, and very supportive. We also have a decent age range--most people are in their mid-late 20s, but several are in their 30s and a couple are in their 40s.
@ bravenewlady, Thanks for the info. I was wondering: Is the area around USC walkable? Is a car a necessity if you live near campus? And what kind of feel does the area around campus have—eclectic or residential or rural, etc.? Thanks again!
I have the same questions about Baton Rouge (LSU), if anyone's in the know.
Are there any fiction writers out there who would like to see their work critiqued/affirmed and/or who would like to do some critiquing/affirming themselves? Could be for writing sample purposes or for miscellaneous purposes.
Email me at sheeriohs@gmail.com if you feel you'd benefit from some sharing. FYI -- my two principles when I workshop, whether remotely or in person, are honesty and compassion. =)
I'm in two minds about whether I should take the GRE again and would really appreciate your opinions. I first took it over a year ago when I was unsure about whether I would apply. I didn't study for it and paid no attention to the math bit - I figured I'd just see what it was about and gauge how much work I'd actually have to put in to do well. I got a terrible score for the math (a 350) which came as no surprise because I've always been awful at it and haven't studied it for over ten years! It was ALL guess work! i got an okay score for the essay bit (4.5) and an okay score for the verbal (570).
I already have an MA but I think this is definitely the weakest part of my application. Should I take it again?
For those of you doing some hard calculations about the cost of application, this is really no way to pitch our services, but it's true that for writers looking at applying to 12+ schools, who will see application costs running in the $1,200-$1,500 range, even our most expensive option (the fiction portfolio review) is less than a third of your application cost. So if you've already weathered the heart attack over costs... :)
Anyhow, on to my real reason for posting. Five great albums to write to:
Max Richter – The Blue Notebooks Eluvium – Copia Stars of the Lid – The Tired Sounds... Tim Hecker – Harmony in Ultraviolet Sigur Rós - ( )
We have similar music/writing taste. Have you checked out Low Light Mixes? This guy has over forty hours of ambient mixes (most without any vocals). I don't know him, but he has fueled almost all of my writing over the last two years. Here's a link: http://lowlightmixes.blogspot.com/
Every now and then his mixes don't work for me (like the recent mix) but they are free and usually do the trick.
This is my second time around and I really wish I found this site last year. I ended up applying to all top tier schools and got rejected across the board, except for one place where I got waitlisted first, then rejected.
This time I'm trying to cover my bases a little better and dividing my apps into 3 tiers. So this is what it's going to look like.
In FICTION:
Tier 1
Iowa Michigan Syracuse Cornell
Tier 2 Arizona Illinois, Urbana/Champaign Arkansas Texas State
I didn't go to USC (undergrad from UGA), but I've been to their campus and it's absolutely beautiful. You'll feel like you walked on the set of 'Gone with the Wind'. I noticed a downtown area, with coffee shops and bars nearby. Can't say much else about Columbia besides that.
Hey all. Just edited 6 pages of a 15-page story. I just went through sentence-by-sentence and segment by segment, asking myself if I liked that part, or if I could improve it or rearrange some words, etc. I did that a few times. If I can do three nights of that, I'll have one story edited, at least partially. Then I may feel like exchanging it. I'm also going to have to do the same thing with another, 18-page story, since several places ask for 30 pages of fiction, and I don't want to go under by about 10 pages, which would have happened had I used the short short I was planning on making my second story. Better to go over by two or three pages then under by that many, right? I hope.
Mom and I had a discussion of grad school, and she was amazed at how hard it is to get into places. I want to apply to eight or nine places, she thinks I shouldn't need to apply to more than five or so. She's also very biased about my ability to wow the admissions people, bless her heart. I felt bad about asking her for help and told her I should bear the burden because it's my choice to go to grad school and apply to all these places. She said, "No, I'm not going to let you do that" and insisted she could help me with more than two or three places. I was telling her the places I'm applying to that give you the most money, and she said I shouldn't apply to places that won't give me at least $13,000. I was thinking $10,000, so we'll see.
I also have a West Coast friend offering to pay for one application fee. I'm awed by these people's support, and I hope I don't let them down. I will feel like I'm not covering all my bases if I don't apply to at least seven or eight places, though.
I have promised myself AND my recommenders that they will be sent their packets this week. THIS week, which means I need to finally stop going back and forth about my final two schools: New Mexico, Arizona, or neither one. And then starting actually putting the packets together. I just feel so dysfunctional about getting things out.
I also have a question about TA recommendations. I know that it's generally understood and acceptable to have your main recommenders write a bit about your potential as a teacher or your teaching experience, rather than getting separate TA recommendations. I don't have much academic teaching experience, other than some tutoring and mentoring, but I taught horseback riding for several years. The barn manager where I taught could probably write a good recommendation about my ability to teach, convey ideas, earn respect, coordinate a group, etc, though she obviously knows little about my writing. I was thinking of asking her to write a separate rec just for TA apps, which will not replace one of my professors, but rather supplement. But I'm not sure this is necessary or even beneficial... any thoughts?
I completely agree about applying to schools from multiple tiers, and I honestly fail to understand why more applicants don't take this approach. A high percentage of the lists that I see here are filled exclusively (or almost exclusively) with tier one schools. I guess people like to shoot for the stars...
Which I understand to a large extent (I'm applying to Iowa and Texas as well, so clearly I don't mind shooting for the stars). But I'm also hoping that I only have to do this once, so I'm trying to be reasonable.
That said, here's my list for fiction. I posted a tentative one last mailbag, and it's changed since. This one is set in stone.
Iowa Texas Oregon Florida LSU Ohio State Old Dominion VCU South Carolina
For those of you still adding schools to your "apply to" list, please allow me to suggest the MFA program at Stony Brook Southampton in Southampton, NY. They have a flexible program, amazing professors, the best summer writers conference in the country, and a new winter writers conference in Florence, Italy. Plus you get to live in the Hamptons.
I don't know about a list that actually breaks the schools into tiers, but for me it was a combination of ranking and (more importantly) selectivity. So I'm applying to nine schools. Four are ranked by P&W in the top 11. Two are ranked between 25-50. And three are outside the top 50. Or, three are in the top 15 for selectivity, three are ranked between 15-35, and three are outside the top 50.
My number one criteria was still funding, but once I had a long list of schools that were well funded, I mentally broke them into tiers and tried to apply widely.
The MFA Handbook has the schools broken down into tiers and advises applying to schools from all three tiers. It's a 2008 book, so some of the schools it covers might have shifted.
Seth's rankings at PW also have a 2nd tier of schools if you look at the ranking past #51. It also has 'unranked' schools, which could be put into a lower tier.
Oregon Iowa Indiana Wisconsin Oregon State Iowa State Virginia Tech Arkansas Mississippi UMass West Virginia
This will most likely remain the same. So many schools have been on this list at some point, but these are the ones that continue to make the cut.
Also, I've swapped manuscripts with a few others from this blog. But I'm still wanting to share ideas, insights, etc. So e-mail me at andrewdpayton@gmail.com if you want to trade statements or poetry samples.
A second time applicant here. I applied to UNCG last year and was waitlisted (or added to their informal list of applicants that they might have chosen had they found more funding).
This year, I'm going for several 3- or 4-year programs, with a couple of exceptions. Here's my mostly final list for fiction, in no particular order:
UNCG U Illinois Urbana-Champaign U Alabama McNeese U Arkansas U Florida Gainesville LSU Southern Illinois Michener Ole Miss Georgia College & State VTech U Indiana U-M Ann Arbor (based on the info that it's possible to extend the program to a third fully-funded year)
@Writer Dude I tend to write in bathtub a la Amy Lowell. Well that's been my new project anyway...before I started doing this I spent a lot of time near the ocean. I guess water inspires me lol.
My list, for poetry! (First time posting this too!) U Washington Oregon UCSD Indiana Ohio State Vanderbilt NYU LSU U Florida Florida State
I am excited to have this down in "paper" somewhere! Now, onto the personal statement. Oh. Joy.
I'm using the same approach as Jonathan and Harold. Applying to a total of 8 schools, and giving myself a good spread in terms of selectivity and rank. My list includes 3 schools in 1-25 selectivity rank, 3 in 26-50, and 2 that aren't ranked (according to the P&W list).
Here's my final list, for fiction:
UVa UC Irvine Brooklyn College Hunter College Ohio State Columbus UNLV UC San Diego UC Riverside
Holy fuck. And here I was, a modern libertarian woman writing non-domestic realism non-autobiographical fiction who could at this moment get into a PhD program in Literature or MA in Classics much more easily than an MFA in Creative Writing, about to throw myself into the ultra-socially conservative, 10th century writing cesspit of conformity! Why didn't I see that coming? Oh for the days the Boulevard author longs for! With the cruel, womanizing professors and market-driven commercializing! Oh for the days before rewriting, when the muse took us (often in politically incorrect doses of medication) and carried us to self-satisfying non-success!
It's such a good thing I read that article, with all of its new complaints, all of its: the-writing-is-too-similar, the-writing-is-generic, the-writing-is-all-the-same truism. Now I can avoid a world drenched in favoritism and narcissism. Now I can write a poem and a story, if I feel like it. See you later, MFA-applicant-fools...
I'm off to Sin City to write my fiction in the bathroom stalls of the Mirage. Or 79 CE Herculaneum. You know, where the real writing gets done.
That Anis Shivani article, and its frequently occurring type, confuse me for several reasons. Mostly, whatever you think of MFAs, it seems to me that the last ten years have far and away the most aesthetically and philosophically diverse literary output in the history of Western literature.
Mostly what confused/amused me about this particular article is that virtually every writer I`ve heard of in the new issue of Boulevard teaches at an MFA program or was specifically criticized by Shivani. Awkward.
I always find Shivani an extremely facile critic and yes, sui generis in this case (for MFA haters) as DMC1985 points out. Even if I were on the anti-MFA side, I'd want a fellow who didn't flog his conceit to death as Shivani does.
However, it's also useful to consider such criticism - even the poorly aimed stuff. After all, we who read this blog are either a part of the system in question or aspire to join it. Systems and institutions tend to have biases and to reproduce themselves, and to have impulses that are institutional - an averaging resulting from group dymanics. A workshop - even one that convenes only for a semester - is a system and an institution with systemic and institutional impulses. That's just human nature - put people in a group and sometimes they act differently than when alone. And that doesn't instantly validate statements like "workshop is bad" or "MFA progs are bad" or mean that workshops or MFAs are all shaped by group dynamics, don't have counter-dynamics, or space for individual thought or diversity (that's what the Shivanis of the world can't grasp).
However, I believe an MFA student should have - if not an anxiety - at least a consciousness of self as an MFA student. It is a privileged state. It is being within a system (again, "system" doesn't equal "bad" per se). It is an economic exchange - whether they're paying or being paid. And it is a political state, given that each programs and programs as a whole constitute an "in" group. So it's worth keeping in mind these systemic elements as forces acting (positively and otherwise) on one's writing, in my opinion.
Other thoughts:
• I wonder if it matters that Jonathan Franzen - who must surely stoke Shivani's ire as a writer in the established domestic realist form supposedly choking American letters - has no MFA.
• Why would anyone target literary publishing - whether large house or small press - for a take down when what's taking down literary publishing is that Americans don't f^&*%^ing read?
• Everything Shivani complains of stylistically does exist: as Narrative Magazine. God I hate that publication. But that's a complaint against a few editors (loathsome, loathsome taste, though - snoozeville!), not an entire degree.
I researched the program and couldn't find anything that said I needed to include a personal statement or statement of purpose in the application packet. Is it required?
@all,
On the subject of Personal Statements:
I'm not sure if I should stick to writing a "conventional" PS or go the alternative route and do something creative. I finished a draft of an experimental PS for Hunter ("Write a story about yourself"), and I like it way more than the PS I used last year for the programs I applied to. I'm thinking of doing something similar for the other schools on my list (another option is re-using the old statement. And another one is to simply write another PS).
Anyone here in McNeese's MFA? I researched and like what I see, but I'm still reticent, mostly because it's not in the Top 50. Any insider info. on the program would be great.
I remember asking a few weeks back about experimental programs. Someone recommended U. of Southern Illinois - Carbondale and Alabama. Insider info. on both would also be great.
Anyone sent everything already? I polished the first pages of what I hope will be my debut novel and have enough for a writing sample. Not sure if I should go for another editing session or get to cracking on those new PS'. I'm leaning towards the latter.
I mean, I read the article, and I agree to an extent that modern literature places too much emphasis on "technique." But, really, there are certain elements of a story that everything must, to a degree conform to. Even "experimental" literature conforms loosely to elements of craft. Personally, in terms of what I want to learn at an MFA program, I want to know how my writing is not meeting certain standards; everything else is my decision as an author and "creator" (sorry for going all Chris Farley with the shutter quotes). I fundamentally disagree that art can still survive in rudimentary non-form. I've read way too many "stream of conscious" garbage that is really just the ramblings of a moron/narcissist/drug addict/schizophrenic/you get the idea. Actually, I've heard some pretty awesome ramblings from schizophrenics that put some of that stuff to shame...
Btw, I really hate laptops with sensitive cursors. I just got sent to the top of this page like fifty times... annoying.
Jamie - I completely agree with you. I am concerned that I might lose a bit of myself in the workshopping process and do feel that with all revisions I feel like I'm sacrificing a part of me that's absolutely integral to the entire process. I think it's important to take a certain approach to feedback in general (not just workshops). Here's my unsolicited feelings on the subject *clears throat*:
1). Every good writer has a feeling that something isn't working. Feedback that validates it merely helps. Kind of like when you're in a bad relationship and you know it, but you ask a close friend and she says "yes, you're dating a loser." 2). A good writer sifts through every piece of criticism with a fine tooth comb and is able to intelligently decide what is worth accepting and what is not. 3). The human brain works in such a way that it connects dots that other people with other perspectives cannot do. Feedback lets the writer know what dots aren't lining up.
A good writer shouldn't be neurotic and think every piece of criticism is right for him/her. On the flip side, a good writer shouldn't be a jack ass and act like everything's work. Ultimately, writing is like teaching; you are trying to say something/show something/get a point across. If there's a problem in getting that point across (something's confusing, distracting, etc), then it needs to be fixed to fulfill that goal.
Bottom line, I don't understand how workshopping/feedback/editing at an MFA program or not isn't doing that. If your mentors/compatriots are a bunch of narcissistic dolts, don't listen to them. If you don't want to be plugged into a system, don't write that way. I don't see what the problem is :D
In reading other Shivani criticism, I think he likes to position himself as a contrarian, and one who presumes MFA students are oblivious to modernist aesthetics and concerns.
@Anti- As I remember, a Vtech personal statement is required and there is a section for it on the online app.
I'm a fiction writer at Southern Illinois University - Carbondale. Here's the skinny:
- 3 years full funding - Studio oriented (w/ a lot of flexibility to shake things up and do independent studies/ internships/ research etc.). - Editorial opportunities with the Crab Orchard Review - A lot of opportunities to work on literary events such as the Young Writer's Workshop (a residential summer program for high school writers). - There are several events/ groups to be a part of which do cool things such as organize an annual literary festival which brings big name writers to campus. - Teaching load is 2 a semester which sounds like a lot but it really isn't (I still have 20 plus hours to write every week) esp. since SIU uses a common syllabus. There are also opportunities to teach creative writing and other forms of writing (i.e. technical). Basically, you'll leave SIU with three years of teaching under your belt. - Aesthetic wise, I think just about anything would be welcome here. If you are into more realist stuff, we have a faculty person here for that. If you're into robots and zombie apocalypses, we also have a good guy for that.
If you have any questions about the town, program, day-to-day stuff etc. feel free to ask. Personally, I'm glad I decided to come here.
Hey Kaybay! Good to hear from you and hope your season's going well.
I agree with everything you say on workshopping in the practical sense.
On systems, outside the whole MFA good/bad divide, I mean stuff like:
• Everybody in my workshop (and, I imagine, in most workshops) is a college grad. That means we all had the means and opportunity to execute a set of functions society deems good. That doesn't limit us hugely, but what about the perspective of those whole didn't follow this route? When I talk to people who didn't go to college, who might work a trade, etc., they often have a different approach to knowledge and language (and that's not a euphemism for saying they're dumb; I don't mean that), and sometimes a different outlook on the world, what's "good," etc. What does the absence of their perspective around the table of my readers mean?
• Another system that's pretty much established at the workshop table and in my program is the English language. Sure, that's kind of ridiculous to say, but then again, in prose English generally works out to [subject] [verb] [object]. I happen to believe those logical relationships have consequences for both human interactions (who gets to be the subject? who the object?) and the construction of texts. (All this talk; my work is actually fairly conventional.) And those relationships and consequences carry over into writing. So what are the implications of being "in" the English language?
OK, I know I'm being a little esoteric, but I'm just saying...character's a system (how much today is it related to the creation of consumers?)...so's narrative...so are school budgets. Those are the kind of systems I'm interested in...publishing's another.
Feel free to email me about LSU! I'm a first-year poet here, and the short answer is YES, apply here.
Full tuition remission. Equal stipends for all students. Those stipends are $16,500 for 9 mo. One class to teach per semester. Lara Glenum. Laura Mullen, whom I haven't met yet because she is in Paris this semester, but I hear great things. SMART, hardworking, supportive peers. Three years, the third of which is a thesis year.
Can you tell I'm glad I chose LSU?
@Marti
I'm a non-driver in Baton Rouge. Depending on where you live, biking and busing is a totally viable lifestyle. (The city, in general, is not bike-friendly, and the bus system is terrible, so you've got to find the right neighborhoods, but they do exist.)
Shivani is, in my opinion, kind of a hack. I thought his discussion of "ethnic writing" in that HuffPo piece he did on overrated writers was particularly funny given that his work deals with "ethnic themes" as well. Dude's just jealous of Jhumpa Lahiri I guess.
Anyway, here's my fiction list: SIUC Illinois Urbana-Champaign Indiana U Ohio State Purdue Iowa Michigan Montana Colorado State Syracuse
It took me awhile, but based on my location preferences and money needs, this seems like a sensible list. Might add some later, but I don't think I'll drop any of these.
Adam, LSU sounds like a great program. I've been looking into it for a while but your comments have made me add it! Yay! I think my list is mostly done now. Finally.
Oh, for POETRY!
*Ohio State *Notre Dame *Illinois-Urbana/Champaign *UVA *VCU *V Tech *Hollins *LSU *Florida State
I'm pretty excited about all of these. I think OSU might be my dream school because two of my favorite poets teach there and it seems like the students are really enthusiastic about the program.
Well I guess I better get to putting my writing sample together.
Man am I getting here in late on this mailbag, but I had a general question that stems from my mailbag questions a few months back.
So through dialogue with a lot of contributors here, I've decided that I'm definitely going to devote myself in my Junior year to preparing for potential MFA candidacy. I do understand that a lot of people think you should wait a while after University, but I've decided for myself to try for it now.
So where my question comes in is "what should I be doing to prepare myself, right now?" I've heard this far in advance, I should be working mostly on my writing sample and on getting solid references. I've been working on the references. I have a lot of English and writing professors I was close to last year, some of which offered to "help me" or "be references" if I chose to pursue an MFA.
It's been a little while now--how do I keep in contact with those teachers? If it's going to be a long time until I need a letter, should I wait and somehow try to keep in contact with them? What's the etiquette for asking a professor for a letter of reference? Is there a way I can keep up with these professors without coming off as needy?
At this point, aside from getting a definite confirmation from one of my recommenders, I'm in pretty good shape. Writing sample is about 90% done; statement(s) are 100% done; two recommenders are definite; and my list of schools is complete.
I freaked out and added two more last weekend even though I can't really afford the fees. My reasoning was that if I actually got into one of these schools and got funding, it would be worth it in the end.
So, if anyone is interest, these are the programs I will be applying to in poetry.
Houston Alabama Virginia Iowa Syracuse Montana Southern Iliinois, Carbondale San Diego State Arizona State John Hopkins
Don't sweat the LoR so much -- it seems like you have the time to plan ahead and take it slow so just lay groundwork. Build a personal relationship with the profs you like and respect outside of the classroom. Stop by their offices to chat, recommend books, ask for book recommendations...etc.
There's is no reason to worry you are coming off as "needy" -- because 1) you are needy and 2) it's their job, quite frankly.
And they know it's part of their job, as professor, to write recs. They didn't get their degrees to become profs without someone writing recs for them...it comes with the territory.
When the time comes to ask, keep it light and fun. Self-deprecation is good...so are bribes (a gift card or something).
The asking is the easy part -- the annoying part is that it seems every university has a slightly different method for the Letters of Recommendation...which makes it frustrating. But the onus of organization falls on us, the applicant, not the recommender.
Ok, here it is, my final, set in stone, cannot, will not, somebody shoot me if I change my mind list for poetry:
Massachusetts--Amherst Texas-Austin Wisconsin Alabama Michigan Washington University FSU University of Washington Iowa UC Irvine Florida New Mexico Oregon
Yes, that's a lucky 13. And I'm refusing to tally up costs. It'll just give me anxieties. I'm just planning on eating only ramen, rice & beans, and eggs all winter long.
Congrats on Southern Illinois. It's definitely on my list for fiction. The most recent Crab Orchard Review is sitting on my desk - good stuff in there. If you'd be willing to share any tips, SofP, stories, that got you in it would be most appreciated. I believe my email is visible/active.
Hi All, I had a major life implosion (broke up w/ boyfriend, moved countries, quit job, etc.) that took two months out of my application time. Today is the first day that I decided to quit being scared and actually look at my stuff again. Does anyone have a calendar for when they want to have stuff done? For example: by Oct. 15, have recommendation letter stuff sent out. I want to know how far behind I am. I'm applying to both fiction and non-fiction. I have non-fiction stuff pretty much done, as I was a journalist for a long time. But fiction, I have one story about 70% there. I have an excel spreadsheet where I was organizing schools. It's already October. Can I get all this done???
I don't have a rigid calendar but it sounds like you could play catch up pretty easily. Most schools seem to have deadlines in DEC/JAN (the earliest on my personal list is Washington U at Dec 15 -- the majority of them are January 15ish).
Though I am not the best person to answer -- since I'm a lazy ass procrastinator. I plan to have my Recommenders' packets sent out mid-to-late October...they all felt comfortable with 1 month (as long as the material I sent was clearly organized and the instructional cheat sheet was right there for each school).
On one hand there is still plenty of time -- on the other hand...it'll go fast, so freaking out it understandable and encouraged.
@Paulita, I think you can definitely get this done.
My timeline, which keeps changing is this:
My GRE is done. But I did so early so I would have time to retake. I've decided not to retake.
By the end of this week get packets out to recommenders. This is an earlier than necessary deadline, because one of my recommenders is leaving the country for awhile in the winter. And if I'm sending one out, may as well send in the rest. But I think a month in advance of the first deadline is the right timing (this is what my professors requested).
I want to START my personal statement drafts by mid october. And have at least one final draft completed by the end of october. But this could be done in a couple hours.
Writing sample is sort of on going, but I'd like to have this more or less set and ready by Thanksgiving. Mine is more or less done, but this is only because I've opted to use more or less finished pieces. Just need to make some decisions, some last edits, and pick an order (I'm poetry).
My first application is due December 1st (UMass). I'm planning on using the week of Thanksgiving (I'm taking it off) to put together as many application packets as I can, starting with UMass. From then on, I'll just crunch out the forms and such in order of when things are due.
Paulita - I, too, am a lazy-ass procrastinator. I totally wasn't last year (I had all of the stories finished by November (next month, eek!) and my apps out by the first week of December. Then I waited. And waited. Then I realized that all those who sent their apps in around the deadline had just the same luck as everyone else, so I decided not to get freaked out about the whole shebang this time around.
At this point, my list is settled, my letter-writers notified, some of my SOPs are finished and one of my stories is near completion (thanks to an extra eyeball from Maia. Thanks, dawg ;) ). I still have to get GRE scores/send apps/finish SOPs/rework another story and get critiqued/get letters back/transcripts/oh lord, I'm sure there's stuff I'm forgetting.
In other words, you're not really that much behind me :D I'd say most of the people on this blog are about 1/4 of the way there. A mild head start. Get to it, homesclice!
Heya Jamie! I never commented on your last comment. Kinda forgot :)
On a limited perspective in workshops: I'm obviously not in a program, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. But, I'm not so sure how much the "educatedness" of a particular writing community actually matters, only because I would imagine it's easier to supplement your "educated" feedback with an "uneducated" perspective than vice versa (and I second your awkward feeling with using those terms. I feel like I should qualify that Seinfeldingly with "not that there's anything wrong with that"). I understand what you're saying, that there's a certain "type" in your workshop, but the flip side is working extra hard to gather together a rag-tag crew of educated and non-educated reviewers that may or may not actually end up providing the kind of perspective you're looking for. At least the MFA program offers cohesive, semi-permanent, semi-consistent feedback, however limited in representation it is. I mean, what do you think? Is the feedback you're getting so limiting that it's almost not worth it? Are you frustrated by the lack of diverse perspective? Do you find yourself seeking another, more fresh perspective? I'd love to know that as a potential applicant.
I do agree with you completely about language, though. I agree that the language in most contemporary novels is very stale and stagnant and that later authors "experimented" more with the use of language. I'm thinking Nabakov (soooo proud of myself for reading Lolita this past summer!). I could also be completely misconstruing what you said, hehe, in which case, I'm talking out of my asshole again :D
Kaybay - thanks for responding! Yr not talking out the exit point - that would more likely be me...
But I think we're eye to eye on language, or at least blog to blog :)
It's a little vague, the educated/non-educated stuff. I suppose you could look at it from the perspective of, we're all likely "good students" in some respect. At least, we get it together enough to take care of the massive organizational application task detailed on this blog. That's got to be some kind of filter there. But yes, it's vague, somewhere in between "known unknowns" and "unknown unknowns" on the Rumsfeld scale.
And I don't think it necessarily plays into my MFA experience so far, which definitely doesn't seem limited at this point (more like, how do I take all this in). I guess I like thinking about systems, and my work has that component. I'm no expert, so probably shouldn't generalize, but if my four weeks has taught me anything, it's that the more you can figure out how to make this thing work for you, the better. For me, that involves assessing how I look at my own creativity, and how the system may or may not be biased, and how those biases might help my creativity, perhaps in unexpected ways. It's this glorious machine you try to short circuit so you can suck up its power...er something.
Practically, so far that's translated to me trying to write a story in a form I'm not naturally comfortable with (and would probably make Anis Shivani compare me to a guild or something). So, all roads lead to Rome.
Keep blasting it out! Looking forward to hearing about the next step...
With any system, the individual has to make a conscious decision to be a part of it or not. Some people are unknowingly plugged into systems, so they don't count. But for those who are aware of a system, one must decide (and, in my opinion has the right to decide) how much to jump in. We can't all be ubermensches, in other words, in fact most of us are merely wandering youths still in "grasshopper" mode.
For example, the whole "show don't tell" thing that was brought up in the Boulevard article. I actually kind of like it. Someone saying "the girl is sad" is so blah compared to a description of a sad girl doing sad things to illustrate her sadness. But, even if I didn't like it, it's something I wouldn't mind conforming my writing to for the sake of, I don't know, mass appeal, publishing creds, etc. Unless I could make it work somehow in a deliberate way, unless it was integral to the story, unless the integrity was compromised in doing otherwise, it's something that I am willing to conform to. Obviously, this gets a little more complicated when it comes to plot/form.language/realism. In that case, I would not be willing to conform to a determined "type" and know many who wouldn't either. Maybe those unwilling to conform entirely are subverted for the sake of the system, but I'm sure they are fine with it for the sake of principle. Rightly or wrongly so, they probably aren't winning a whole lot of awards and crap. But at least they sleep happy... when they have a place to sleep...
I think with all things systematic, most people are willing to be at least a little bit a part of it to a vaguely defined degree; there's a bit of a fudge factor. But, the individual does have to at some point draw boundaries in order to maintain the integrity of their work. Those boundaries are very, very tough to define and depend on the individual. Hey, there's always the hope of being appreciated posthumously, heh.
I totally love this conversation, by the way. Philosophize away!
When you speak of the "educated" perspective, what you are really bemoaning is the idea that all applicants have jumped through the necessary hoops to get into the program which, in turn, solidifies the system. The mere fact that all applicants have gone through the app process and have been admitted with certain samples means that in the workshop, that bias will be present and will be tough to shed. Very good point and something to ponder. Is that what you were saying?
My understanding on this, after reading your posts, is that you're really trying to figure out your style of writing, your voice. Systems play a big role obviously, in the proportion of their presence/ absence.
I think it's unfair, and maybe even short-changing yourself, to break rules without knowing them. The greatest artists first understood the prevalent system before changing the game. And I think the same applies here as well.
Jamie, if you find yourself writing a story in a form you are not comfortable with, that's terrific learning. You know how you DON'T want to write; you're fine-tuning, finding your voice and style. You're understanding elements of the system and then choosing to accept or reject them.
I think you might have actually hit the very core of what an MFA is all about and practising it.
What's the best way to ask for recommendation letters? Some schools ask them to be submitted electronically, and some ask for hard-copies to be mailed either by the professor or myself. When about 10 of these add up, I'm afraid I'm asking my professor a lot. And I also think it lowers the chance of their getting submitted in time - all of them. How do you go about it?
I didn't read the whole Shivani article because I do not have time; and I really do not have time to write a response to your dialogue, either, but I think a few of the subjects you've brought up are so crucial and important -- especially the question Jamie was hinting at, which is, Does the system of the MFA program somehow perpetuate a system that is unjust and that privileges the privileged? -- and I have to put in my two or three cents.
MFAs or no MFAs, those that end up successful and influential in the publishing world, those who define the literary landscape, are, as Jamie pointed out, likely to have grown up in an English-speaking household; likely to have had their parents set them on their laps and read to them when they were toddlers; unlikely to have experienced malnourishment or undernourishment throughout their childhood and adolescence; unlikely to have grown up in foster care, homelessness, areas of high crime; not tremendously likely to have had significant experiences with death; extremely likely to have attended a school during their childhood and adolescence in which students almost always stayed in their seats and more or less respected their teachers; ultimately, much more likely to have money and to have come from money.
As a public school teacher in a lower-income urban community for three years, I have known and taught young writers who naturally possess more talent and genius than I had at their age, and yet, due to their socioeconomic status and the lower than low quality of their education thus far, who are far behind in mastery of English conventions than their wealthy suburban counterparts, and -- this makes me so incredibly angry to write -- who may be published only if they demonstrate superhuman resilience, diligence, tenacity and passion. Which, actually, some of them do have.
Oh, if only ensuring "equal opportunity" in the art world were as simple as shutting down MFA programs. That's a joke. The injustice begins so much earlier than the MFA and is so much more profound.
Props to Seth Abramson and Tom Kealey of the original MFA Handbook for at least advocating for MFA programs to become more affordable. That is a step in the right direction for the literary establishment, which, as it stands, and perhaps as it always will stand -- and I know this is a cliche argument, but I stand behind it, as I have found it to be true -- tends to cater to and represent the intellectual elite, the relatively and obliviously rich.
I am enjoying the discussion too. Re "educated," yes that's about it. I think you say my point better than I do.
However, Maia, I am holding back on whether that makes the entire MFA system unjust - that's too wholesale a judgment for my blood. Though I'll be glad to say the MFA system is situated in an unjust society.
Would love to say more, but I've got to write said outside-my-comfort-zone story now.
Hi, I found Seth's poll really interesting and was hoping some people might be interested in talking about their answers some.
I did not pick location as one of my 5, but for those of you who did: are you primarily interested in being close to 'home' or to family or in being a fun/cool liveable place?
I did pick duration as one of my 5. I would personally prefer a 3 year program. Do any of you prefer a 2 year program, if so, why?
I grew up in Indiana and went to undergrad in Tennessee, so I have a very strong rural background. I now live in Los Angeles (and don't care for it all that much...though having to decide between the beach or snowboarding is a neat decision to be faced with).
Having to fly home for any visit now, I personally wanted to pick places that are relatively "short" drives home. Or at least that is what I came to realize as my list kept changing and shifting.
Duration doesn't matter all that much to me. I like the idea of a longer program because it's "more for your money" but I also like the idea of shorter ones because 3+ more years of school sounds like a lot. Of course my freshman year in undergrad I couldn't wait to graduate -- my senior year I was contemplating changing my major from writing to chemistry just to extend my stay ;)
Writer Dude, did you go to UT? If so, I hope you're not a football fan :*(
My biggest weakness is probably characterization. I tend to have one clearly defined, "vivid" character interacting with a bunch of poorly defined, vague ones. Their interaction/relationship is tough for me to illustrate, too. I also have a problem with fully integrating readers into the story. I get a lot of feedback saying things like I don't know exactly what the setting is, what the character looks like, etc...
Nope. Maryville College -- small school just south of UT. All my friends are UT fans, though (that was quite a finish with LSU haha).
I'm not a fan of sports...although, oddly enough, I was a sports writer for a bit. And I still got a heartache today seeing my Reds go down (in a no-hitter, no less -- the second in playoff history!)
Ending a short story is very hard for me. I've got the openings down smooth, but I have trouble devising an ending that will stick in your gut.
Other weaknesses? It's hard for me to create an episode that will cause the protagonist to change. Change is difficult in real life, and it's hard for characters on the page, too.
A related flaw I have is that my characters--when they do "change"--perform this 180 degree bootlegger turn, which isn't realistic--that's for the movies. One of the first things I learned as an undergrad is that my characters can't be static. They have to change. Apparently I took this advice to heart so now my people always evolve radically into a new person. But I'm learning now that it's more believable if people just see things differently, or go through other subtle changes.
I keep switching my post name. Will stick with this one. Promise.
@Blob (re: Seth's Poll)
I chose almost entirely by location. I'm partial to the Bay Area, despite the fact that schools there aren't known for much funding. All the other places I've applied to are known to have good atmosphere/resources for writerly types. The only "oddball" (in terms of location) out of my picks is Idaho. The town of Moscow is only 6.2 square miles. It's said that it is somewhat of an "artsy" town, but it is a far cry from like, say, San Francisco or Minneapolis. Definitely the only rural place on my list. Well, perhaps Iowa City can be considered rural as well, but Moscow is so small I could probably bike its perimeter in like 20 mins.
@ Writer Dude et al (re: dirty)
Some days I pretty much have difficulty with everything. But if I had to put something down specifically, I'd be in the same boat as Jeff. Endings. Though in truth, everything is hard. And then you have to end it, which, I guess, is harder still.
@ Maia Well put. America is not a meritocracy—biggest myth ever.
@ Blob I chose location. I want to like where I live and I'd like the town to be on the cheaper side (although I just left NYC, so everywhere seems cheap right now). Things that would be nice: public transportation, decent weather, some organic stores, a sense of community. God I'm such a hippie.
Toughest writing problem--I'd say it would be the over-arching structure--movement from one moment/scene/situation to the next, that feels necessary and uncontrived.
I usually like my endings a lot; I feel, though, that I often haven't "earned" them.
I'm trying, right now, to decide whether I'm going to go through this process again. Last year, I applied to only one school, and started late. Despite this, I feel that I put a good effort in, and learned a lot.
I have definite location restraints, as I have a family and home and won't be moving across the country. I have fantasized about getting into say, Michigan (yeah, right) and staying with friends/family and commuting home every month, but besides the unlikeliness of this happening, I don't think it would work financially or personally. So, if I try again, it would be local schools. I live near NYC, where most schools don't give much aid, so it would mean keeping my job and commuting into the city in the evenings. I've also considered low res, but, it would mean all my meager vacation time would go to trips away from home/family; and again, the cost would soak up a lot of my income.
I think last year I was the oldest poster on the boards, and at 52, I may well be this year, too.
On the other hand, writing has gone well this year. I have had some really strong lit mag feedback. One good journal asked for a rewrite and basically workshopped the story for me (hats off to a wonderful editor, and fingers crossed this works out) and another one gave me a detailed, very encouraging rejection, asking for more in the future.
so I feel that I'm thisclose. Alternately, this makes me feel like an MFA would push me through to a greater chance at improvement and possibly success, and on the other hand, I feel maybe I can do this without one.
Definitely need to make this decision soon!!! AAAAHH!
My suggestion would be to look into programs that are a few hours from where you live but that are funded so that you could take leave from your job, go away to school, but still come home on weekends. Syracuse, Cornell, Brown, and UMass are four that come to mind. I don't know funding at Sarah Lawrence, but that's another option.
I could be wrong, but I don't think it would be possible to keep your job and just take classes in the evenings and have time to sleep with these programs. If keeping your job really is a must, then think about low-res programs. Maybe your work would be willing to make special exception for you, in terms of vacation days. My work has in the past made exceptions. and the one person at work who knows as of now that I'm thinking/planning to apply, has said that if I change my mind and decide to do low-res programs, they could work something out so that I could do my 20 days there and not be totally deprived of vacation days.
Blob--thanks! I've thought about the funded ones a few hours away, too, as possibilities. It would be a financial stretch to say the least, which is the main problem, because, though funded, I'd have to pay for housing, while not contributing any more to family finances. (My Michigan fantasy seemed possible because we have a wealth of Ann Arbor connections, so I might have been able to stay extra cheap somehwere. But then there's airfare....) I looked into Cornell, which is a fabulous program, but they sound like they expect students to stay in the summer--definitely not an option. It never really occured to me that Syracuse, Brown, UMass aren't all that farther away (Penn State, too.) I'll look into them. Realistically, though, it's NYC or Rutgers-Newark (last year's rejection), or low res, which i have not ruled out yet.
504 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 504 of 504Rags, are you certain Indiana is a hard copy school for letters of recommendation?
I see a notice on their website that says August 6th that went electronic.
Maybe I misunderstood your post (or Indiana's notice).
Helloo - I'm back for more -
I was finally rejected by NYU last week btw via email (the waitlist FINALLY closed).
Between unemployment and round 2 of poetry MFA applications, I'm stressing. Will update later with list.
Good luck to all, especially to all my repeat applicant homies.
Duchess:
You got paper? You got a pen? Keep writing.
Don't let the stress cripple your flow. Even if you can only get one line down each day, then perhaps you'll have a completed poem in a couple weeks.
On certain crazy busy days, I can only write in my head. Putting it all down on paper is agonizingly difficult for me. So, you're not alone. Just don't give up.
@ Jeff:
Yeah, I spent a good amount of time trying to decode what exactly Indiana says in that notice. Finally, just one sentence clinched the win in favour of hard copies:
"ALL MATERIALS ARE TO BE SENT DIRECTLY TO HEATHER STEELE AT THE ADDRESS NOTED!"
The third bullet point says "three letters of recommendation".
Once I had decided it was hard-copies, I went back and re-read the notice and the paragraph after it, and it sounds like they want hard-copies.
Try it and let me know.
Btw, I've discovered that Indiana's language is hard to understand in most of their literature, including in their application.
Hi everyone,
Hope you're staying relatively sane. I'm just now starting to enter my recommenders' information into the online applications, and discovered that at least a few schools-- so far, Texas and Indiana-Bloomington-- won't send the email to my recommenders giving them access to the system until I've completed and submitted my application. Wha?! I'd planned to let them do their letters while I take my time focusing on the writing sample and personal statement, but now it seems they can't even upload their letters until I'm completely done. I'm going to rant for a second and say that I think that's a ridiculous set-up for the system, and I'm also just annoyed because I told all my recommenders to expect those emails very soon, which won't be the case for at least a few schools. Anyone else run into this issue? Any tips? I know the loophole would be to just let my recommenders send hard copy letters via snail-mail, but I've already geared them up to submit entirely online and I don't want to confuse or inconvenience them by changing it now. SOS!
Hello--just FYI, there is a spammer out there using this blog subscription and I'm getting them from 2008 mailbag comments. The name is "jiang" and it's commercials for jewelry.
My new (probably the 4th of its kind) final list... (with a little room for adjustment) for poetry.
For sure (and in no particular order):
Wisconsin-Madison
Texas-Michener
Michigan-Ann Arbor
Cornell
Washington U-Saint Louis
Iowa-Writers Workshop
Indiana-Bloomington
Alabama
Illinois-Urbana-Champaign
Virginia Tech
Arkansas
Ohio State
Massachusetts-Amherst
Undecided (and would love some insight into these (especially from current students or people who have made the choice between these four) - I'd be willing to apply to 2 out of the 4 listed here):
LSU
Purdue
Syracuse
Mississippi
Any thoughts would be super appreciated!
@I
I've run into the same issue with some of my recommendations, but taking a closer look I don't think it's quite as big a hassle as I first thought it was. For many schools, you need to finish the general grad online application before they'll e-mail your recommenders, but you don't need to have every single item from your app in (so you can still send your writing sample, transcripts, etc. later). You would have to pay the app fee and maybe include your SOP, but its mostly just name/address stuff. But admittedly, I don't know if this is the same at every school.
To get in on the other conversation, I have to have silence when I write. I admire people who can focus with music on, but I just can't do it. And I also admire those that handwrite (or can handwrite) their work, but everytime I try it's just a slog. I like the idea of writing out a story by hand way more than I like the actual practice of doing it.
Hello again!
I've been overwhelmed (in a good way) by the number of people emailing to see my statements of purpose and application stories. I just wanted to re-iterate that the offer is still out there for those interested. I really wish someone had done this last year, and I completely understand the craziness (and subjectiveness) of this process. (For those who don't know, I'm in my first year at the MFA program at the University of Michigan, for fiction).
I've also had a bunch of people asking for more information about Michigan. I know it can kinda rub people the wrong way to post here about how amazingly awesome the program is! So I'm not going to do that. :-)
You guys are all intelligent people who have researched and chosen schools for your own personal reasons, but if you're on the fence about Michigan, or are just curious, email me.
I'm going to take all of those questions, do a detailed write-up, and then email it to anyone interested. Hopefully this will help answer any lingering questions about Michigan without any blog awkwardness.
My email address is still active in my profile - I just ask that you use the subject line to explain if you're looking for application materials or if you have a Michigan question. If it's both mixed in one email, don't worry, I'm sure I can figure it out.
Good luck to everyone!
@Jonathan-- Yes, phew, I just figured that out myself today. That's a big relief. Didn't know how I would manage otherwise.
Good luck everyone! I'm headed on a 10-day vacation, after which point I'll promptly crumple into a ball with GRE books. Yeehaw.
I have to listen to music, but it has to be a certain kind depending on the tone of what I'm writing. So quiet/angst music for angst writing, happier music for happier writing.
@ Neema
I just moved out to Montana a couple months ago. I live in Billings, which is the largest city in Montana with about 100,000 people, and it is nothing like a big city. If you're hoping for a lot of "civilization" you're not moving to the best place. However, Montana is beautiful and Missoula is in one of the prettiest parts of the state. There are tons of mountains to climb and trails to hike if you're into that sort of thing (I wasn't before I moved out here and now I can't get enough of it). P.S. I didn't believe it before I moved here but the sky is actually bigger. :)
Hey all,
In my second year of my MFA now and remembering the 2 years I spent doing this applications nonsense. Best of luck to all of you, for sure.
I mostly stopped in to monitor the Columbia/South Carolina drama. As a South Carolina student, I just want to reiterate that we're a wonderful place, and if you're looking for somewhere with full funding, great cost of living, small faculty (and great faculty!) to student ration, and teaching experience, there's really no reason we shouldn't be on your list.
I promise, South Carolina's not so bad as it looks from the outside. I made the choice to pick a school I could grow in, and it was definitely the right back. Low competition among students yields to a lot of healthy conversation and encouragement, and as my last bit of advice: don't pick a school until you've met its students. My classmates have been an unbelievably integral part of the experience.
Anyway, like I said, best of luck, and do feel free to shoot me an email if you have any questions about Carolina.
Cheers,
Ashley
Hey all,
In my second year of my MFA now and remembering the 2 years I spent doing this applications nonsense. Best of luck to all of you, for sure.
I mostly stopped in to monitor the Columbia/South Carolina drama. As a South Carolina student, I just want to reiterate that we're a wonderful place, and if you're looking for somewhere with full funding, great cost of living, small faculty (and great faculty!) to student ration, and teaching experience, there's really no reason we shouldn't be on your list.
I promise, South Carolina's not so bad as it looks from the outside. I made the choice to pick a school I could grow in, and it was definitely the right back. Low competition among students yields to a lot of healthy conversation and encouragement, and as my last bit of advice: don't pick a school until you've met its students. My classmates have been an unbelievably integral part of the experience.
Anyway, like I said, best of luck, and do feel free to shoot me an email if you have any questions about Carolina.
Cheers,
Ashley
I just added up the costs of applying (application fees + gre scores [above the 4 free ones] + transcripts [from 6 schools / average of $38 per set] and if I apply to all the programs on my list (above) it will cost me $1447.
Pardon me while I take myself to the emergency room to get treated for the heart attack I just had.
I sure wish that more schools would take the humane approach like Arkansas.
Still trying to decide on whether it would be worth applying to 2 of the other 4 on my list (Mississippi, Syracuse, Purdue or LSU).
This is my first (and probably only) year applying to M.F.A. programs. (I'm applying in poetry.) I'm also applying to a couple of M.A. programs as back up. I want to be in grad school next fall. I'm 40, and I just can't put it off any longer. Full steam ahead!
Ashley,
Here's my Huffington Post response to Professor Hospital's letter.
Best,
Seth
P.S. If you like the article I hope you'll pass it along via Twitter, Facebook, et. al. I'm trying to get the word out that this e-mail was unfair to USC and unduly fawning re: Columbia.
For those of you who have asked about Ohio State, I just thought I'd put in a plug. I'm currently a third year in fiction. We are fully funded (you won't necessarily live high on the hog, but Columbus is a cheap, diverse city with a lot going on, and your stipend will certainly allow you to get by). Several students each year receive graduate fellowships so that they don't have to teach their first year. There are also a few thesis fellowships available to third years.
Our faculty is phenomenal--friendly, accessible, super supportive, and--at least for fiction (haven't taken poetry), are all great teachers. This also goes for nonfiction, since three fiction faculty also teach nonfiction. We also have some great visiting writers and two ongoing reading series--a less formal one for students and then also a student/faculty reading.
Our current students and grads have been publishing some exciting places--Narrative, Granta, and others, as well as at least one mention in Best American Essays, for starters.
It's a really great place. The student body is not too large but not tiny, and very supportive. We also have a decent age range--most people are in their mid-late 20s, but several are in their 30s and a couple are in their 40s.
Hi all,
There's a new poll up at The Suburban Ecstasies if you're interested.
S.
@ bravenewlady,
Thanks for the info. I was wondering: Is the area around USC walkable? Is a car a necessity if you live near campus? And what kind of feel does the area around campus have—eclectic or residential or rural, etc.? Thanks again!
I have the same questions about Baton Rouge (LSU), if anyone's in the know.
@Jeff
Thanks for the encouragement - I sincerely appreciate it. Discipline is key. Best wishes to you and your writing.
Story swap, anyone?
Are there any fiction writers out there who would like to see their work critiqued/affirmed and/or who would like to do some critiquing/affirming themselves? Could be for writing sample purposes or for miscellaneous purposes.
Email me at sheeriohs@gmail.com if you feel you'd benefit from some sharing. FYI -- my two principles when I workshop, whether remotely or in person, are honesty and compassion. =)
Hope to hear from you!
Hi all,
I'm in two minds about whether I should take the GRE again and would really appreciate your opinions. I first took it over a year ago when I was unsure about whether I would apply. I didn't study for it and paid no attention to the math bit - I figured I'd just see what it was about and gauge how much work I'd actually have to put in to do well. I got a terrible score for the math (a 350) which came as no surprise because I've always been awful at it and haven't studied it for over ten years! It was ALL guess work! i got an okay score for the essay bit (4.5) and an okay score for the verbal (570).
I already have an MA but I think this is definitely the weakest part of my application. Should I take it again?
Thanks all,
For those of you doing some hard calculations about the cost of application, this is really no way to pitch our services, but it's true that for writers looking at applying to 12+ schools, who will see application costs running in the $1,200-$1,500 range, even our most expensive option (the fiction portfolio review) is less than a third of your application cost. So if you've already weathered the heart attack over costs... :)
Anyhow, on to my real reason for posting. Five great albums to write to:
Max Richter – The Blue Notebooks
Eluvium – Copia
Stars of the Lid – The Tired Sounds...
Tim Hecker – Harmony in Ultraviolet
Sigur Rós - ( )
Chris
Driftless House
ChrisLes,
We have similar music/writing taste. Have you checked out Low Light Mixes? This guy has over forty hours of ambient mixes (most without any vocals). I don't know him, but he has fueled almost all of my writing over the last two years. Here's a link: http://lowlightmixes.blogspot.com/
Every now and then his mixes don't work for me (like the recent mix) but they are free and usually do the trick.
- Eric Anderson
And, my final poetry application list for the books:
Iowa
Brown
University of Wisconsin-Madison
UMASS Amherst
Minnesota
Michigan
NYU
My final list for fiction.
Iowa
Hopkins
Brown
The New School
UC Irvine
Oregon
Cal Arts
Washington
Hey guys. Long time lurker but since fall's a'comin' it feels like I should post my **pretty much final** list. So here it is for poetry:
*Ohio State
*Indiana U
*UCSD
*UC Irvine
*Syracuse
*U Washington
*Wisconsin
*Washington U
*Oregon
*ASU
Also a lurker coming out of the shadows. My list for CNF:
Minnesota State
George Mason
Wyoming
Ohio State
Idaho
New Mexico State
Arizona
My mostly finalized list.
Houston
Texas-Michener
ASU
Montana
UNLV
Penn State
Ohio State
Alabama
LSU
Ole Miss
Iowa
Indiana
Minnesota
Wisconsin
Glad to see a few others applying to ASU and OSU for poetry. Seem like good programs that don't get a lot of attention in our genre.
where i'll be applying (and hoping to get in!) for poetry. truth be told, i'd be happy if even one of these schools accepts me!
nyu
washington-st.louis
brooklyn college
emerson
iowa
unlv
lsu
mississippi
arkansas
houston
miami
Hi y'all,
This is my second time around and I really wish I found this site last year. I ended up applying to all top tier schools and got rejected across the board, except for one place where I got waitlisted first, then rejected.
This time I'm trying to cover my bases a little better and dividing my apps into 3 tiers. So this is what it's going to look like.
In FICTION:
Tier 1
Iowa
Michigan
Syracuse
Cornell
Tier 2
Arizona
Illinois, Urbana/Champaign
Arkansas
Texas State
Tier 3
New Mexico State
Boise State
Georgia
UCSD
Anyone else using this approach?
@Marti
I didn't go to USC (undergrad from UGA), but I've been to their campus and it's absolutely beautiful. You'll feel like you walked on the set of 'Gone with the Wind'. I noticed a downtown area, with coffee shops and bars nearby. Can't say much else about Columbia besides that.
Hey all. Just edited 6 pages of a 15-page story. I just went through sentence-by-sentence and segment by segment, asking myself if I liked that part, or if I could improve it or rearrange some words, etc. I did that a few times. If I can do three nights of that, I'll have one story edited, at least partially. Then I may feel like exchanging it. I'm also going to have to do the same thing with another, 18-page story, since several places ask for 30 pages of fiction, and I don't want to go under by about 10 pages, which would have happened had I used the short short I was planning on making my second story. Better to go over by two or three pages then under by that many, right? I hope.
Mom and I had a discussion of grad school, and she was amazed at how hard it is to get into places. I want to apply to eight or nine places, she thinks I shouldn't need to apply to more than five or so. She's also very biased about my ability to wow the admissions people, bless her heart. I felt bad about asking her for help and told her I should bear the burden because it's my choice to go to grad school and apply to all these places. She said, "No, I'm not going to let you do that" and insisted she could help me with more than two or three places. I was telling her the places I'm applying to that give you the most money, and she said I shouldn't apply to places that won't give me at least $13,000. I was thinking $10,000, so we'll see.
I also have a West Coast friend offering to pay for one application fee. I'm awed by these people's support, and I hope I don't let them down. I will feel like I'm not covering all my bases if I don't apply to at least seven or eight places, though.
My list for fiction
Arizona State
Arizona
UC San Diego
UC Irvine
UC Riverside
it's my first year applying, Kind of nervous!!!
I have promised myself AND my recommenders that they will be sent their packets this week. THIS week, which means I need to finally stop going back and forth about my final two schools: New Mexico, Arizona, or neither one. And then starting actually putting the packets together. I just feel so dysfunctional about getting things out.
I also have a question about TA recommendations. I know that it's generally understood and acceptable to have your main recommenders write a bit about your potential as a teacher or your teaching experience, rather than getting separate TA recommendations. I don't have much academic teaching experience, other than some tutoring and mentoring, but I taught horseback riding for several years. The barn manager where I taught could probably write a good recommendation about my ability to teach, convey ideas, earn respect, coordinate a group, etc, though she obviously knows little about my writing. I was thinking of asking her to write a separate rec just for TA apps, which will not replace one of my professors, but rather supplement. But I'm not sure this is necessary or even beneficial... any thoughts?
@Harold
I completely agree about applying to schools from multiple tiers, and I honestly fail to understand why more applicants don't take this approach. A high percentage of the lists that I see here are filled exclusively (or almost exclusively) with tier one schools. I guess people like to shoot for the stars...
Which I understand to a large extent (I'm applying to Iowa and Texas as well, so clearly I don't mind shooting for the stars). But I'm also hoping that I only have to do this once, so I'm trying to be reasonable.
That said, here's my list for fiction. I posted a tentative one last mailbag, and it's changed since. This one is set in stone.
Iowa
Texas
Oregon
Florida
LSU
Ohio State
Old Dominion
VCU
South Carolina
@ Harold and Jonathan and anyone else who might know....
How are you determining which schools belong to each tier? I seem to recall reading a list like that at one point, but don't remember where.
Thanks!
For those of you still adding schools to your "apply to" list, please allow me to suggest the MFA program at Stony Brook Southampton in Southampton, NY. They have a flexible program, amazing professors, the best summer writers conference in the country, and a new winter writers conference in Florence, Italy. Plus you get to live in the Hamptons.
@thereandbackagain
I don't know about a list that actually breaks the schools into tiers, but for me it was a combination of ranking and (more importantly) selectivity. So I'm applying to nine schools. Four are ranked by P&W in the top 11. Two are ranked between 25-50. And three are outside the top 50.
Or, three are in the top 15 for selectivity, three are ranked between 15-35, and three are outside the top 50.
My number one criteria was still funding, but once I had a long list of schools that were well funded, I mentally broke them into tiers and tried to apply widely.
Re: Tiers
The MFA Handbook has the schools broken down into tiers and advises applying to schools from all three tiers. It's a 2008 book, so some of the schools it covers might have shifted.
Seth's rankings at PW also have a 2nd tier of schools if you look at the ranking past #51. It also has 'unranked' schools, which could be put into a lower tier.
Hello,
My list for poetry:
Oregon
Iowa
Indiana
Wisconsin
Oregon State
Iowa State
Virginia Tech
Arkansas
Mississippi
UMass
West Virginia
This will most likely remain the same. So many schools have been on this list at some point, but these are the ones that continue to make the cut.
Also, I've swapped manuscripts with a few others from this blog. But I'm still wanting to share ideas, insights, etc. So e-mail me at andrewdpayton@gmail.com if you want to trade statements or poetry samples.
Thanks.
Hey everybody,
A second time applicant here. I applied to UNCG last year and was waitlisted (or added to their informal list of applicants that they might have chosen had they found more funding).
This year, I'm going for several 3- or 4-year programs, with a couple of exceptions. Here's my mostly final list for fiction, in no particular order:
UNCG
U Illinois Urbana-Champaign
U Alabama
McNeese
U Arkansas
U Florida Gainesville
LSU
Southern Illinois
Michener
Ole Miss
Georgia College & State
VTech
U Indiana
U-M Ann Arbor (based on the info that it's possible to extend the program to a third fully-funded year)
I've now got hopes for 500 posts.
So, when you write -- pants on or off?
I feel my best work comes under the vulnerability of naked legs.
@Writer Dude
I tend to write in bathtub a la Amy Lowell. Well that's been my new project anyway...before I started doing this I spent a lot of time near the ocean. I guess water inspires me lol.
My list, for poetry! (First time posting this too!)
U Washington
Oregon
UCSD
Indiana
Ohio State
Vanderbilt
NYU
LSU
U Florida
Florida State
I am excited to have this down in "paper" somewhere! Now, onto the personal statement. Oh. Joy.
My list for poetry:
DEFINITES
-Brown
-Cornell
-Iowa
-Indiana
-Michigan
-Ohio State
-U Florida
-Oregon
MAYBES
-Johns Hopkins
-Houston
-LSU
-Alabama
Hi folks,
Just read Boulevard Magazine's critique of MFA programs. I agree with some of it, but most, for me, didn't really ring true.
@Seth -- You're mentioned in the essay as a "journeyman."
http://www.boulevardmagazine.org/shivani2.pdf
PS. I'm in Virginia Tech's MFA and the place, funding, faculty, and program are awesome!
Re: Tiers/ranking
I'm using the same approach as Jonathan and Harold. Applying to a total of 8 schools, and giving myself a good spread in terms of selectivity and rank. My list includes 3 schools in 1-25 selectivity rank, 3 in 26-50, and 2 that aren't ranked (according to the P&W list).
Here's my final list, for fiction:
UVa
UC Irvine
Brooklyn College
Hunter College
Ohio State Columbus
UNLV
UC San Diego
UC Riverside
@MFAGuy
Holy fuck. And here I was, a modern libertarian woman writing non-domestic realism non-autobiographical fiction who could at this moment get into a PhD program in Literature or MA in Classics much more easily than an MFA in Creative Writing, about to throw myself into the ultra-socially conservative, 10th century writing cesspit of conformity! Why didn't I see that coming? Oh for the days the Boulevard author longs for! With the cruel, womanizing professors and market-driven commercializing! Oh for the days before rewriting, when the muse took us (often in politically incorrect doses of medication) and carried us to self-satisfying non-success!
It's such a good thing I read that article, with all of its new complaints, all of its: the-writing-is-too-similar, the-writing-is-generic, the-writing-is-all-the-same truism. Now I can avoid a world drenched in favoritism and narcissism. Now I can write a poem and a story, if I feel like it. See you later, MFA-applicant-fools...
I'm off to Sin City to write my fiction in the bathroom stalls of the Mirage. Or 79 CE Herculaneum. You know, where the real writing gets done.
-G
That Anis Shivani article, and its frequently occurring type, confuse me for several reasons. Mostly, whatever you think of MFAs, it seems to me that the last ten years have far and away the most aesthetically and philosophically diverse literary output in the history of Western literature.
Mostly what confused/amused me about this particular article is that virtually every writer I`ve heard of in the new issue of Boulevard teaches at an MFA program or was specifically criticized by Shivani. Awkward.
Does anybody know the origins of MFA hatred?
I always find Shivani an extremely facile critic and yes, sui generis in this case (for MFA haters) as DMC1985 points out. Even if I were on the anti-MFA side, I'd want a fellow who didn't flog his conceit to death as Shivani does.
However, it's also useful to consider such criticism - even the poorly aimed stuff. After all, we who read this blog are either a part of the system in question or aspire to join it. Systems and institutions tend to have biases and to reproduce themselves, and to have impulses that are institutional - an averaging resulting from group dymanics. A workshop - even one that convenes only for a semester - is a system and an institution with systemic and institutional impulses. That's just human nature - put people in a group and sometimes they act differently than when alone. And that doesn't instantly validate statements like "workshop is bad" or "MFA progs are bad" or mean that workshops or MFAs are all shaped by group dynamics, don't have counter-dynamics, or space for individual thought or diversity (that's what the Shivanis of the world can't grasp).
However, I believe an MFA student should have - if not an anxiety - at least a consciousness of self as an MFA student. It is a privileged state. It is being within a system (again, "system" doesn't equal "bad" per se). It is an economic exchange - whether they're paying or being paid. And it is a political state, given that each programs and programs as a whole constitute an "in" group. So it's worth keeping in mind these systemic elements as forces acting (positively and otherwise) on one's writing, in my opinion.
Other thoughts:
• I wonder if it matters that Jonathan Franzen - who must surely stoke Shivani's ire as a writer in the established domestic realist form supposedly choking American letters - has no MFA.
• Why would anyone target literary publishing - whether large house or small press - for a take down when what's taking down literary publishing is that Americans don't f^&*%^ing read?
• Everything Shivani complains of stylistically does exist: as Narrative Magazine. God I hate that publication. But that's a complaint against a few editors (loathsome, loathsome taste, though - snoozeville!), not an entire degree.
@MFAguy,
OK, a dumb question. On the subject of VTech:
I researched the program and couldn't find anything that said I needed to include a personal statement or statement of purpose in the application packet. Is it required?
@all,
On the subject of Personal Statements:
I'm not sure if I should stick to writing a "conventional" PS or go the alternative route and do something creative. I finished a draft of an experimental PS for Hunter ("Write a story about yourself"), and I like it way more than the PS I used last year for the programs I applied to. I'm thinking of doing something similar for the other schools on my list (another option is re-using the old statement. And another one is to simply write another PS).
Anyone here in McNeese's MFA? I researched and like what I see, but I'm still reticent, mostly because it's not in the Top 50. Any insider info. on the program would be great.
I remember asking a few weeks back about experimental programs. Someone recommended U. of Southern Illinois - Carbondale and Alabama. Insider info. on both would also be great.
Anyone sent everything already? I polished the first pages of what I hope will be my debut novel and have enough for a writing sample. Not sure if I should go for another editing session or get to cracking on those new PS'. I'm leaning towards the latter.
Best of luck to all.
- J
LOL! Gena, I ♥ you... seriously...
I mean, I read the article, and I agree to an extent that modern literature places too much emphasis on "technique." But, really, there are certain elements of a story that everything must, to a degree conform to. Even "experimental" literature conforms loosely to elements of craft. Personally, in terms of what I want to learn at an MFA program, I want to know how my writing is not meeting certain standards; everything else is my decision as an author and "creator" (sorry for going all Chris Farley with the shutter quotes). I fundamentally disagree that art can still survive in rudimentary non-form. I've read way too many "stream of conscious" garbage that is really just the ramblings of a moron/narcissist/drug addict/schizophrenic/you get the idea. Actually, I've heard some pretty awesome ramblings from schizophrenics that put some of that stuff to shame...
Btw, I really hate laptops with sensitive cursors. I just got sent to the top of this page like fifty times... annoying.
Jamie - I completely agree with you. I am concerned that I might lose a bit of myself in the workshopping process and do feel that with all revisions I feel like I'm sacrificing a part of me that's absolutely integral to the entire process. I think it's important to take a certain approach to feedback in general (not just workshops). Here's my unsolicited feelings on the subject *clears throat*:
1). Every good writer has a feeling that something isn't working. Feedback that validates it merely helps. Kind of like when you're in a bad relationship and you know it, but you ask a close friend and she says "yes, you're dating a loser."
2). A good writer sifts through every piece of criticism with a fine tooth comb and is able to intelligently decide what is worth accepting and what is not.
3). The human brain works in such a way that it connects dots that other people with other perspectives cannot do. Feedback lets the writer know what dots aren't lining up.
A good writer shouldn't be neurotic and think every piece of criticism is right for him/her. On the flip side, a good writer shouldn't be a jack ass and act like everything's work. Ultimately, writing is like teaching; you are trying to say something/show something/get a point across. If there's a problem in getting that point across (something's confusing, distracting, etc), then it needs to be fixed to fulfill that goal.
Bottom line, I don't understand how workshopping/feedback/editing at an MFA program or not isn't doing that. If your mentors/compatriots are a bunch of narcissistic dolts, don't listen to them. If you don't want to be plugged into a system, don't write that way. I don't see what the problem is :D
Wow. That was long. And no, that's not what she said.
In reading other Shivani criticism, I think he likes to position himself as a contrarian, and one who presumes MFA students are oblivious to modernist aesthetics and concerns.
@Anti- As I remember, a Vtech personal statement is required and there is a section for it on the online app.
Anti,
I'm a fiction writer at Southern Illinois University - Carbondale. Here's the skinny:
- 3 years full funding
- Studio oriented (w/ a lot of flexibility to shake things up and do independent studies/ internships/ research etc.).
- Editorial opportunities with the Crab Orchard Review
- A lot of opportunities to work on literary events such as the Young Writer's Workshop (a residential summer program for high school writers).
- There are several events/ groups to be a part of which do cool things such as organize an annual literary festival which brings big name writers to campus.
- Teaching load is 2 a semester which sounds like a lot but it really isn't (I still have 20 plus hours to write every week) esp. since SIU uses a common syllabus. There are also opportunities to teach creative writing and other forms of writing (i.e. technical). Basically, you'll leave SIU with three years of teaching under your belt.
- Aesthetic wise, I think just about anything would be welcome here. If you are into more realist stuff, we have a faculty person here for that. If you're into robots and zombie apocalypses, we also have a good guy for that.
If you have any questions about the town, program, day-to-day stuff etc. feel free to ask. Personally, I'm glad I decided to come here.
Hey Kaybay! Good to hear from you and hope your season's going well.
I agree with everything you say on workshopping in the practical sense.
On systems, outside the whole MFA good/bad divide, I mean stuff like:
• Everybody in my workshop (and, I imagine, in most workshops) is a college grad. That means we all had the means and opportunity to execute a set of functions society deems good. That doesn't limit us hugely, but what about the perspective of those whole didn't follow this route? When I talk to people who didn't go to college, who might work a trade, etc., they often have a different approach to knowledge and language (and that's not a euphemism for saying they're dumb; I don't mean that), and sometimes a different outlook on the world, what's "good," etc. What does the absence of their perspective around the table of my readers mean?
• Another system that's pretty much established at the workshop table and in my program is the English language. Sure, that's kind of ridiculous to say, but then again, in prose English generally works out to [subject] [verb] [object]. I happen to believe those logical relationships have consequences for both human interactions (who gets to be the subject? who the object?) and the construction of texts. (All this talk; my work is actually fairly conventional.) And those relationships and consequences carry over into writing. So what are the implications of being "in" the English language?
OK, I know I'm being a little esoteric, but I'm just saying...character's a system (how much today is it related to the creation of consumers?)...so's narrative...so are school budgets. Those are the kind of systems I'm interested in...publishing's another.
@thereandbackagain
Feel free to email me about LSU! I'm a first-year poet here, and the short answer is YES, apply here.
Full tuition remission.
Equal stipends for all students.
Those stipends are $16,500 for 9 mo.
One class to teach per semester.
Lara Glenum.
Laura Mullen, whom I haven't met yet because she is in Paris this semester, but I hear great things.
SMART, hardworking, supportive peers.
Three years, the third of which is a thesis year.
Can you tell I'm glad I chose LSU?
@Marti
I'm a non-driver in Baton Rouge. Depending on where you live, biking and busing is a totally viable lifestyle. (The city, in general, is not bike-friendly, and the bus system is terrible, so you've got to find the right neighborhoods, but they do exist.)
HA. Sorry, thereandbackagain. My email is aatki11@lsu.edu - look forward to hearing from you! (And anyone else interested in LSU!)
Shivani is, in my opinion, kind of a hack. I thought his discussion of "ethnic writing" in that HuffPo piece he did on overrated writers was particularly funny given that his work deals with "ethnic themes" as well. Dude's just jealous of Jhumpa Lahiri I guess.
Anyway, here's my fiction list:
SIUC
Illinois Urbana-Champaign
Indiana U
Ohio State
Purdue
Iowa
Michigan
Montana
Colorado State
Syracuse
It took me awhile, but based on my location preferences and money needs, this seems like a sensible list. Might add some later, but I don't think I'll drop any of these.
Adam,
LSU sounds like a great program. I've been looking into it for a while but your comments have made me add it! Yay! I think my list is mostly done now. Finally.
Oh, for POETRY!
*Ohio State
*Notre Dame
*Illinois-Urbana/Champaign
*UVA
*VCU
*V Tech
*Hollins
*LSU
*Florida State
I'm pretty excited about all of these. I think OSU might be my dream school because two of my favorite poets teach there and it seems like the students are really enthusiastic about the program.
Well I guess I better get to putting my writing sample together.
Ugh...
Man am I getting here in late on this mailbag, but I had a general question that stems from my mailbag questions a few months back.
So through dialogue with a lot of contributors here, I've decided that I'm definitely going to devote myself in my Junior year to preparing for potential MFA candidacy. I do understand that a lot of people think you should wait a while after University, but I've decided for myself to try for it now.
So where my question comes in is "what should I be doing to prepare myself, right now?" I've heard this far in advance, I should be working mostly on my writing sample and on getting solid references. I've been working on the references. I have a lot of English and writing professors I was close to last year, some of which offered to "help me" or "be references" if I chose to pursue an MFA.
It's been a little while now--how do I keep in contact with those teachers? If it's going to be a long time until I need a letter, should I wait and somehow try to keep in contact with them? What's the etiquette for asking a professor for a letter of reference? Is there a way I can keep up with these professors without coming off as needy?
At this point, aside from getting a definite confirmation from one of my recommenders, I'm in pretty good shape. Writing sample is about 90% done; statement(s) are 100% done; two recommenders are definite; and my list of schools is complete.
I freaked out and added two more last weekend even though I can't really afford the fees. My reasoning was that if I actually got into one of these schools and got funding, it would be worth it in the end.
So, if anyone is interest, these are the programs I will be applying to in poetry.
Houston
Alabama
Virginia
Iowa
Syracuse
Montana
Southern Iliinois, Carbondale
San Diego State
Arizona State
John Hopkins
@Benjamin
Don't sweat the LoR so much -- it seems like you have the time to plan ahead and take it slow so just lay groundwork. Build a personal relationship with the profs you like and respect outside of the classroom. Stop by their offices to chat, recommend books, ask for book recommendations...etc.
There's is no reason to worry you are coming off as "needy" -- because 1) you are needy and 2) it's their job, quite frankly.
And they know it's part of their job, as professor, to write recs. They didn't get their degrees to become profs without someone writing recs for them...it comes with the territory.
When the time comes to ask, keep it light and fun. Self-deprecation is good...so are bribes (a gift card or something).
The asking is the easy part -- the annoying part is that it seems every university has a slightly different method for the Letters of Recommendation...which makes it frustrating. But the onus of organization falls on us, the applicant, not the recommender.
That was a lot of words.
Ok, here it is, my final, set in stone, cannot, will not, somebody shoot me if I change my mind list for poetry:
Massachusetts--Amherst
Texas-Austin
Wisconsin
Alabama
Michigan
Washington University
FSU
University of Washington
Iowa
UC Irvine
Florida
New Mexico
Oregon
Yes, that's a lucky 13. And I'm refusing to tally up costs. It'll just give me anxieties. I'm just planning on eating only ramen, rice & beans, and eggs all winter long.
@Lynn K
Congrats on Southern Illinois. It's definitely on my list for fiction. The most recent Crab Orchard Review is sitting on my desk - good stuff in there. If you'd be willing to share any tips, SofP, stories, that got you in it would be most appreciated. I believe my email is visible/active.
Hi All,
I had a major life implosion (broke up w/ boyfriend, moved countries, quit job, etc.) that took two months out of my application time. Today is the first day that I decided to quit being scared and actually look at my stuff again. Does anyone have a calendar for when they want to have stuff done? For example: by Oct. 15, have recommendation letter stuff sent out. I want to know how far behind I am. I'm applying to both fiction and non-fiction. I have non-fiction stuff pretty much done, as I was a journalist for a long time. But fiction, I have one story about 70% there. I have an excel spreadsheet where I was organizing schools. It's already October. Can I get all this done???
@Paulita
I don't have a rigid calendar but it sounds like you could play catch up pretty easily. Most schools seem to have deadlines in DEC/JAN (the earliest on my personal list is Washington U at Dec 15 -- the majority of them are January 15ish).
Though I am not the best person to answer -- since I'm a lazy ass procrastinator. I plan to have my Recommenders' packets sent out mid-to-late October...they all felt comfortable with 1 month (as long as the material I sent was clearly organized and the instructional cheat sheet was right there for each school).
On one hand there is still plenty of time -- on the other hand...it'll go fast, so freaking out it understandable and encouraged.
@Paulita, I think you can definitely get this done.
My timeline, which keeps changing is this:
My GRE is done. But I did so early so I would have time to retake. I've decided not to retake.
By the end of this week get packets out to recommenders. This is an earlier than necessary deadline, because one of my recommenders is leaving the country for awhile in the winter. And if I'm sending one out, may as well send in the rest. But I think a month in advance of the first deadline is the right timing (this is what my professors requested).
I want to START my personal statement drafts by mid october. And have at least one final draft completed by the end of october. But this could be done in a couple hours.
Writing sample is sort of on going, but I'd like to have this more or less set and ready by Thanksgiving. Mine is more or less done, but this is only because I've opted to use more or less finished pieces. Just need to make some decisions, some last edits, and pick an order (I'm poetry).
My first application is due December 1st (UMass). I'm planning on using the week of Thanksgiving (I'm taking it off) to put together as many application packets as I can, starting with UMass. From then on, I'll just crunch out the forms and such in order of when things are due.
Paulita - I, too, am a lazy-ass procrastinator. I totally wasn't last year (I had all of the stories finished by November (next month, eek!) and my apps out by the first week of December. Then I waited. And waited. Then I realized that all those who sent their apps in around the deadline had just the same luck as everyone else, so I decided not to get freaked out about the whole shebang this time around.
At this point, my list is settled, my letter-writers notified, some of my SOPs are finished and one of my stories is near completion (thanks to an extra eyeball from Maia. Thanks, dawg ;) ). I still have to get GRE scores/send apps/finish SOPs/rework another story and get critiqued/get letters back/transcripts/oh lord, I'm sure there's stuff I'm forgetting.
In other words, you're not really that much behind me :D I'd say most of the people on this blog are about 1/4 of the way there. A mild head start. Get to it, homesclice!
Heya Jamie! I never commented on your last comment. Kinda forgot :)
On a limited perspective in workshops: I'm obviously not in a program, so take what I'm saying with a grain of salt. But, I'm not so sure how much the "educatedness" of a particular writing community actually matters, only because I would imagine it's easier to supplement your "educated" feedback with an "uneducated" perspective than vice versa (and I second your awkward feeling with using those terms. I feel like I should qualify that Seinfeldingly with "not that there's anything wrong with that"). I understand what you're saying, that there's a certain "type" in your workshop, but the flip side is working extra hard to gather together a rag-tag crew of educated and non-educated reviewers that may or may not actually end up providing the kind of perspective you're looking for. At least the MFA program offers cohesive, semi-permanent, semi-consistent feedback, however limited in representation it is. I mean, what do you think? Is the feedback you're getting so limiting that it's almost not worth it? Are you frustrated by the lack of diverse perspective? Do you find yourself seeking another, more fresh perspective? I'd love to know that as a potential applicant.
I do agree with you completely about language, though. I agree that the language in most contemporary novels is very stale and stagnant and that later authors "experimented" more with the use of language. I'm thinking Nabakov (soooo proud of myself for reading Lolita this past summer!). I could also be completely misconstruing what you said, hehe, in which case, I'm talking out of my asshole again :D
Kaybay - thanks for responding! Yr not talking out the exit point - that would more likely be me...
But I think we're eye to eye on language, or at least blog to blog :)
It's a little vague, the educated/non-educated stuff. I suppose you could look at it from the perspective of, we're all likely "good students" in some respect. At least, we get it together enough to take care of the massive organizational application task detailed on this blog. That's got to be some kind of filter there. But yes, it's vague, somewhere in between "known unknowns" and "unknown unknowns" on the Rumsfeld scale.
And I don't think it necessarily plays into my MFA experience so far, which definitely doesn't seem limited at this point (more like, how do I take all this in). I guess I like thinking about systems, and my work has that component. I'm no expert, so probably shouldn't generalize, but if my four weeks has taught me anything, it's that the more you can figure out how to make this thing work for you, the better. For me, that involves assessing how I look at my own creativity, and how the system may or may not be biased, and how those biases might help my creativity, perhaps in unexpected ways. It's this glorious machine you try to short circuit so you can suck up its power...er something.
Practically, so far that's translated to me trying to write a story in a form I'm not naturally comfortable with (and would probably make Anis Shivani compare me to a guild or something). So, all roads lead to Rome.
Keep blasting it out! Looking forward to hearing about the next step...
Jamie the Philosopher :D
With any system, the individual has to make a conscious decision to be a part of it or not. Some people are unknowingly plugged into systems, so they don't count. But for those who are aware of a system, one must decide (and, in my opinion has the right to decide) how much to jump in. We can't all be ubermensches, in other words, in fact most of us are merely wandering youths still in "grasshopper" mode.
For example, the whole "show don't tell" thing that was brought up in the Boulevard article. I actually kind of like it. Someone saying "the girl is sad" is so blah compared to a description of a sad girl doing sad things to illustrate her sadness. But, even if I didn't like it, it's something I wouldn't mind conforming my writing to for the sake of, I don't know, mass appeal, publishing creds, etc. Unless I could make it work somehow in a deliberate way, unless it was integral to the story, unless the integrity was compromised in doing otherwise, it's something that I am willing to conform to. Obviously, this gets a little more complicated when it comes to plot/form.language/realism. In that case, I would not be willing to conform to a determined "type" and know many who wouldn't either. Maybe those unwilling to conform entirely are subverted for the sake of the system, but I'm sure they are fine with it for the sake of principle. Rightly or wrongly so, they probably aren't winning a whole lot of awards and crap. But at least they sleep happy... when they have a place to sleep...
I think with all things systematic, most people are willing to be at least a little bit a part of it to a vaguely defined degree; there's a bit of a fudge factor. But, the individual does have to at some point draw boundaries in order to maintain the integrity of their work. Those boundaries are very, very tough to define and depend on the individual. Hey, there's always the hope of being appreciated posthumously, heh.
I totally love this conversation, by the way. Philosophize away!
Ooh! Lightbulb!
When you speak of the "educated" perspective, what you are really bemoaning is the idea that all applicants have jumped through the necessary hoops to get into the program which, in turn, solidifies the system. The mere fact that all applicants have gone through the app process and have been admitted with certain samples means that in the workshop, that bias will be present and will be tough to shed. Very good point and something to ponder. Is that what you were saying?
@ Jamie and @ kaybay:
I apologise for cutting into the conversation.
My understanding on this, after reading your posts, is that you're really trying to figure out your style of writing, your voice. Systems play a big role obviously, in the proportion of their presence/ absence.
I think it's unfair, and maybe even short-changing yourself, to break rules without knowing them. The greatest artists first understood the prevalent system before changing the game. And I think the same applies here as well.
Jamie, if you find yourself writing a story in a form you are not comfortable with, that's terrific learning. You know how you DON'T want to write; you're fine-tuning, finding your voice and style. You're understanding elements of the system and then choosing to accept or reject them.
I think you might have actually hit the very core of what an MFA is all about and practising it.
Really interesting conversation.
What's the best way to ask for recommendation letters? Some schools ask them to be submitted electronically, and some ask for hard-copies to be mailed either by the professor or myself. When about 10 of these add up, I'm afraid I'm asking my professor a lot. And I also think it lowers the chance of their getting submitted in time - all of them. How do you go about it?
@ Kaybay & Jamie --
I didn't read the whole Shivani article because I do not have time; and I really do not have time to write a response to your dialogue, either, but I think a few of the subjects you've brought up are so crucial and important -- especially the question Jamie was hinting at, which is, Does the system of the MFA program somehow perpetuate a system that is unjust and that privileges the privileged? -- and I have to put in my two or three cents.
MFAs or no MFAs, those that end up successful and influential in the publishing world, those who define the literary landscape, are, as Jamie pointed out, likely to have grown up in an English-speaking household; likely to have had their parents set them on their laps and read to them when they were toddlers; unlikely to have experienced malnourishment or undernourishment throughout their childhood and adolescence; unlikely to have grown up in foster care, homelessness, areas of high crime; not tremendously likely to have had significant experiences with death; extremely likely to have attended a school during their childhood and adolescence in which students almost always stayed in their seats and more or less respected their teachers; ultimately, much more likely to have money and to have come from money.
As a public school teacher in a lower-income urban community for three years, I have known and taught young writers who naturally possess more talent and genius than I had at their age, and yet, due to their socioeconomic status and the lower than low quality of their education thus far, who are far behind in mastery of English conventions than their wealthy suburban counterparts, and -- this makes me so incredibly angry to write -- who may be published only if they demonstrate superhuman resilience, diligence, tenacity and passion. Which, actually, some of them do have.
Oh, if only ensuring "equal opportunity" in the art world were as simple as shutting down MFA programs. That's a joke. The injustice begins so much earlier than the MFA and is so much more profound.
Props to Seth Abramson and Tom Kealey of the original MFA Handbook for at least advocating for MFA programs to become more affordable. That is a step in the right direction for the literary establishment, which, as it stands, and perhaps as it always will stand -- and I know this is a cliche argument, but I stand behind it, as I have found it to be true -- tends to cater to and represent the intellectual elite, the relatively and obliviously rich.
my final list (fiction)
jhu
brown
iowa
penn state
maryland
va tech
hollins
sarah lawrence
umass, boston
new hampshire
@ Kaybay
I am enjoying the discussion too. Re "educated," yes that's about it. I think you say my point better than I do.
However, Maia, I am holding back on whether that makes the entire MFA system unjust - that's too wholesale a judgment for my blood. Though I'll be glad to say the MFA system is situated in an unjust society.
Would love to say more, but I've got to write said outside-my-comfort-zone story now.
Hi all,
Don't forget to vote in The Suburban Ecstasies poll! (See right-hand sidebar). Best,
Seth
Oh we are so close!
Let's get dirty. What's your biggest weakness?
For me...definitely POV. All my characters usually end up sounding a lot like a 25-year-old sarcastic silly white male from the Mid-West middle class.
I also have trouble killing my darlings in the editing phase.
Questions about Seth's poll:
Hi, I found Seth's poll really interesting and was hoping some people might be interested in talking about their answers some.
I did not pick location as one of my 5, but for those of you who did: are you primarily interested in being close to 'home' or to family or in being a fun/cool liveable place?
I did pick duration as one of my 5. I would personally prefer a 3 year program. Do any of you prefer a 2 year program, if so, why?
I did choose location.
I grew up in Indiana and went to undergrad in Tennessee, so I have a very strong rural background. I now live in Los Angeles (and don't care for it all that much...though having to decide between the beach or snowboarding is a neat decision to be faced with).
Having to fly home for any visit now, I personally wanted to pick places that are relatively "short" drives home. Or at least that is what I came to realize as my list kept changing and shifting.
Duration doesn't matter all that much to me. I like the idea of a longer program because it's "more for your money" but I also like the idea of shorter ones because 3+ more years of school sounds like a lot. Of course my freshman year in undergrad I couldn't wait to graduate -- my senior year I was contemplating changing my major from writing to chemistry just to extend my stay ;)
Writer Dude, did you go to UT? If so, I hope you're not a football fan :*(
My biggest weakness is probably characterization. I tend to have one clearly defined, "vivid" character interacting with a bunch of poorly defined, vague ones. Their interaction/relationship is tough for me to illustrate, too. I also have a problem with fully integrating readers into the story. I get a lot of feedback saying things like I don't know exactly what the setting is, what the character looks like, etc...
@kaybay
Nope. Maryville College -- small school just south of UT. All my friends are UT fans, though (that was quite a finish with LSU haha).
I'm not a fan of sports...although, oddly enough, I was a sports writer for a bit. And I still got a heartache today seeing my Reds go down (in a no-hitter, no less -- the second in playoff history!)
:(
Ending a short story is very hard for me. I've got the openings down smooth, but I have trouble devising an ending that will stick in your gut.
Other weaknesses? It's hard for me to create an episode that will cause the protagonist to change. Change is difficult in real life, and it's hard for characters on the page, too.
A related flaw I have is that my characters--when they do "change"--perform this 180 degree bootlegger turn, which isn't realistic--that's for the movies. One of the first things I learned as an undergrad is that my characters can't be static. They have to change. Apparently I took this advice to heart so now my people always evolve radically into a new person. But I'm learning now that it's more believable if people just see things differently, or go through other subtle changes.
I keep switching my post name. Will stick with this one. Promise.
@Blob (re: Seth's Poll)
I chose almost entirely by location. I'm partial to the Bay Area, despite the fact that schools there aren't known for much funding. All the other places I've applied to are known to have good atmosphere/resources for writerly types. The only "oddball" (in terms of location) out of my picks is Idaho. The town of Moscow is only 6.2 square miles. It's said that it is somewhat of an "artsy" town, but it is a far cry from like, say, San Francisco or Minneapolis. Definitely the only rural place on my list. Well, perhaps Iowa City can be considered rural as well, but Moscow is so small I could probably bike its perimeter in like 20 mins.
@ Writer Dude et al (re: dirty)
Some days I pretty much have difficulty with everything. But if I had to put something down specifically, I'd be in the same boat as Jeff. Endings. Though in truth, everything is hard. And then you have to end it, which, I guess, is harder still.
@ Maia Well put. America is not a meritocracy—biggest myth ever.
@ Blob I chose location. I want to like where I live and I'd like the town to be on the cheaper side (although I just left NYC, so everywhere seems cheap right now). Things that would be nice: public transportation, decent weather, some organic stores, a sense of community. God I'm such a hippie.
Toughest writing problem--I'd say it would be the over-arching structure--movement from one moment/scene/situation to the next, that feels necessary and uncontrived.
I usually like my endings a lot; I feel, though, that I often haven't "earned" them.
Also, I have a revised (and final) list. This is for nonfiction.
Iowa
Florida State
Houston
George Mason
Penn State
Arizona
Baltimore
Old Dominion
New Orleans
Portland State
South Carolina
I'm trying, right now, to decide whether I'm going to go through this process again. Last year, I applied to only one school, and started late. Despite this, I feel that I put a good effort in, and learned a lot.
I have definite location restraints, as I have a family and home and won't be moving across the country. I have fantasized about getting into say, Michigan (yeah, right) and staying with friends/family and commuting home every month, but besides the unlikeliness of this happening, I don't think it would work financially or personally. So, if I try again, it would be local schools. I live near NYC, where most schools don't give much aid, so it would mean keeping my job and commuting into the city in the evenings. I've also considered low res, but, it would mean all my meager vacation time would go to trips away from home/family; and again, the cost would soak up a lot of my income.
I think last year I was the oldest poster on the boards, and at 52, I may well be this year, too.
On the other hand, writing has gone well this year. I have had some really strong lit mag feedback. One good journal asked for a rewrite and basically workshopped the story for me (hats off to a wonderful editor, and fingers crossed this works out) and another one gave me a detailed, very encouraging rejection, asking for more in the future.
so I feel that I'm thisclose. Alternately, this makes me feel like an MFA would push me through to a greater chance at improvement and possibly success, and on the other hand, I feel maybe I can do this without one.
Definitely need to make this decision soon!!! AAAAHH!
@leslie
My suggestion would be to look into programs that are a few hours from where you live but that are funded so that you could take leave from your job, go away to school, but still come home on weekends. Syracuse, Cornell, Brown, and UMass are four that come to mind. I don't know funding at Sarah Lawrence, but that's another option.
I could be wrong, but I don't think it would be possible to keep your job and just take classes in the evenings and have time to sleep with these programs. If keeping your job really is a must, then think about low-res programs. Maybe your work would be willing to make special exception for you, in terms of vacation days. My work has in the past made exceptions. and the one person at work who knows as of now that I'm thinking/planning to apply, has said that if I change my mind and decide to do low-res programs, they could work something out so that I could do my 20 days there and not be totally deprived of vacation days.
Blob--thanks! I've thought about the funded ones a few hours away, too, as possibilities. It would be a financial stretch to say the least, which is the main problem, because, though funded, I'd have to pay for housing, while not contributing any more to family finances. (My Michigan fantasy seemed possible because we have a wealth of Ann Arbor connections, so I might have been able to stay extra cheap somehwere. But then there's airfare....) I looked into Cornell, which is a fabulous program, but they sound like they expect students to stay in the summer--definitely not an option. It never really occured to me that Syracuse, Brown, UMass aren't all that farther away (Penn State, too.) I'll look into them. Realistically, though, it's NYC or Rutgers-Newark (last year's rejection), or low res, which i have not ruled out yet.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Hi guys, I have a question for all those applying to U of Oregon: Did Oregon recently change their application process to make everything online?
I had previously printed and given my Recommender their recommendation form along with an enveloped address to their creative writing department.
Now I can't find the form anywhere and it appears they are only accepting electronic recommendations. Is this correct?
I just put a new mailbag up, plus a post about a workshop opportunity for NYC based writers.
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