Sigh. Sounds like a drag. I can't personally relate, but I know enough stories similar to yours to be sufficiently jaded with the system.
I have a friend who was born in the US, whose parents are professors in the US, who has been entirely educated in the US schooling system...but at some point in her high school career she checked that at home she speaks Spanish....So even though she was top of her class and was enrolled in a number of honors and advanced classes, she was forced to take a test to place out of a mandatory ESL class as a senior in order to graduate.
I'm starting to lose my mind. I've been re-reading Jan/Feb mailbags from last year (somewhat obsessively) and looking at the driftless house blog and trying to figure out when and who will notify.
Looks like alabama poetry has been the earliest one, which makes me VERY nervous since that's one of my schools.
What are other people doing to keep themselves from chewing their arms off? Anyone picking up new habits?
@x, That really sucks. I'm applying to UIUC as an international applicant too, and they sent me an email requiring all kinds of ToEFL things, but then they realised that I'm from the UK & withdrew the requirement. (of course, they're still requiring a certification of finances that I can't afford unless I win the lottery sometime soon, so I almost-certainly won't be able to attend.)
It is ridiculous & ignorant that native English speakers are treated like this, although I guess there's nothing you can do about it. Good luck with your applications, though!
I would assume that primary genre is really all that matters in terms of admission, and if one is accepted into their primary genre, they are automatically accepted in to their second.
My assumption is that either a) it works itself off or that b), they admit so few students that "filling up" is not so much an issue, you know?
In general I've been a bit curious about how the secondary genre works...even though it's the main reason I applied to Michener.
I too have wondered how much the sub- or second genre enters into your degree requirements.
I'd imagine that rather than just be "encouraged" to explore another genre, it's required...like some percentage of your time there must be spent on coursework in the sub-genre.
What I understand about admission though is that they consider your primary genre pretty much on its own since you aren't supposed to submit a sample of work in your sub-genre. That said, it makes little sense to me that applicants are made to declare a sub-genre at all. I said I'd like to do 1) fiction and 2) screenwriting and sent in two short stories. But for all they know, I've never even watched a motion picture in my entire life.
Perhaps it plays into balancing the incoming cohort. For instance, maybe they don't want all incoming fiction people to have chosen poetry as a sub-genre, as it would overload the poetry classes and under-load the screenwriting classes??
That sucks about UCIC. I'm an international too (also on here as c.k.c. from The Bahamas; for some reason i couldn't log under that username) and, english is also my mother tongue.
None of the schools that i have applied to required that i take TOEFL, or required that TOEFl be taken so that i could qualifiy for TAship. However, i have found that solely as an international i do not always qualify for TAship at some schools. That is the case with UC Irvine, and, i think, UCSD as well. So other internationals be aware of this and check with your schools to find out if being an international will affect your possibility of TAship. If i'm wrong about UC Irvine or UCSD anyone out there who has more info, feel free to correct me?
I've seen the article. I don't think most M.F.A. applicants harbor delusions of instant fame and fortune, though; just because the publishing industry is getting tougher to penetrate doesn't mean that all young people pursuing M.F.A.s or creative writing generally are starry-eyed and naive in the way the author suggests.
"The 5,000 students graduating each year from creative writing programs (not to mention the thousands more who attend literary festivals and conferences) do not include insecurity, rejection and disappointment in their plans."
A statement like that is just downright ridiculous. What with acceptance rates around 1-4% at the top schools, insecurity, rejection and disappointment feature in most M.F.A. applicants' experiences already; I sense profound levels of fear, doubt and self-depreciation among young and emerging writers and artists.
"The emphasis is on publishing, not on creating. On being a writer, not on writing itself."
Whose emphasis? MFA candidates / young writers? How can she be so sure of that? Based on the expressions on students' "eager faces" on the first day of class? This doesn't seem fair or accurate. I know of few, if any, young literary writers who have expressed an intention of striking rich in the publishing world, and I know many many people who simply have a pure, honest passion for their art, people who love to pour energy every day into the creative act.
"At the risk of sounding like I'm writing from my rocking chair...."
She very much does sound like she's writing from a rocking chair, and most of her advice isn't original or useful. We are aware of the dismal publishing landscape -- we've heard these lectures and dire warnings many times. When I write I write for free. It is a sacrifice. We all know it is a sacrifice and a risk every hour we write. Artists need to be encouraged and strengthened, not judged or assumed foolish for their willingness -- and courage -- to devote themselves to art.
Is anyone attending the AWP conference in February? I'm interested in going, especially since DC is an easy drive for me and I have people I can stay with for free there. The schedule looks really interesting and it seems a good way to meet people in that world, but I have to admit to being reluctant to go not knowing anyone there.
@Blake: Dude, thanks so much for linking to that fantastic George Saunders interview! If I loved his writing any more, I'd just go ahead and take out a restraining order against me on his behalf. What a friggin' marvel of modern literature.
Okay, I STILL don't see my huge comment, so in case it didn't turn up, I wanted to say THANK YOU again to The Pensive Monkey, X and G, who made deciding not to apply to Mills much easier. Now I'm thinking of adding the University of Oregon to my list, although MOST likely I'll be joining The Pensive Monkey in applying only to 7 schools. Yikes.
@Gena: About the status updates -- this is a little late (again, it was in the earlier post, so it could be repetitive) but I've had the same troubles with some schools. WashU actually sent me an email saying my file is complete, but they've not updated it on the website. UWash too updated exactly nothing on the website, even though their deadline for international applicants was, in fact, November 1. They had a disclaimer saying one should give them a little while to update, so I only checked early in December, and was told some material was missing but might be "upstairs in the English Grad Office". So I think some schools might also be having a bit of an organisational crisis in this respect. I'd say write to them, but don't panic.
Which is kind of hard to do, though. I checked the status of my application for Michener today - because of Urbanist's question (and yeah, same status for me too) - and it transpires that my undergrad transcripts have not been received, though they were sent around the last week of November. >>; The site says to hold your horses for about three weeks around the deadline, so I will, for another four days, but then I'll write to them. >_< And keep thinking don't panic, don't panic, don't panic...
@X: I relate. My schooling (right from Kindergarten through postgrad uni stuff) has always been in English. I still had to sit through the TOEFL because of the weird requirement. I mean it's an MFA in Creative WRITING. In English. Doesn't that presume that the applicants would be somewhat versed with the language? Ah well. ._.
I have not taken TOEFL. Like you and Akatsuki, all of my schooling has have been in english, in english speaking countries. Moreover, though i'm an international student, The Bahamas is also an English speaking country so,once I communicated that fact clearly to the uni's that i applied to there have been no problems. Still, i will check with UCSD to find out if i am required to take TOEFL in order to qualify for TAship. I'll get back to you on what i'm told.
Agreed. Applicants would have to be clinically delusional to think the MFA is a ticket to notoriety. Every time I visit Barnes & Noble or Borders, or trawl some of the online 'zines, I'm reminded HOW MANY great writers there are out there. Then there's the number of published writers there are out there. ;) I'm just reminded how the vast majority will never be invited to read at the 92nd Street Y or interview with M. Silverblatt on Bookworm.
I think I got two hours of sleep last night. AND my favorite player (Michael Dyer) was the star! I'm not a huge Cam fan. But I just want to squeeze Dyer's adorable fat cheeks. Love that kid!
I made a crazy notification calender like you did, because I clearly enjoy self torture. The end of February is looking intense. I wonder if people at work will think I've lost my mind.
Blob - I know. I'm sure yours is like mine where there are two or more weeks in which two or more schools will likely be notifying (wow, sorry for the wordy sentence). That's double nerve-wracking! I wish I could just leave and let the chips fall, but I can't. I'm always thinking about it :)
And now I'm snowed in... nothing else much to do but read samples (kaybay, did you send me yours?!) and think about MFA season beginning. (And ending. Warmth, please).
Gena - I thought I did! I'll double check and send it your way if I didn't. I'm still about half-way through yours. So far, pretty cool. Awesomely unique.
Is your online app status reflecting Writing Sample yet? Mine lists Personal Statement twice, but nothing about WS. I'm thinking maybe that item doesn't get reflected on the website because it was sent to the MFA program and not to the Grad Admissions Office, but I wanted to see if anyone else could corroborate that.
UMass status check doesn't seem to be very up to date. Mine says all sorts of stuff is missing, but I got an email from admissions saying my application was complete. Those emails seem to be going out in batches. Some got their emails several weeks before I got mine.
One of my UT recommendations hasn't been submitted. It was due Dec. 15th, so at this point I'm in deep trouble. I can't get a hold of my recommender either. I don't know if the other ones he did were submitted or not-- they were all hard copy. But this one is stressing me out. It says his recommendation is 'saved, not submitted' so he probably thinks he did it. But I've emailed to explain otherwise and no word. Already emailed him twice about it.
Late is one thing. But I really, really, really don't want this application thrown out as incomplete.
I think Michener is one of the few places that has a secret but not-so-secret: "If you get your sample here, we'll read it." LoRs are low on the scale of import.
Higher on the scale of import... noncommittal "winter emergencies".
PS... Haha, thanks kaybay. "Original", "Unique"... the "EGADS, WHAT IS THAT THING?" of the writing world. ;). jk jk.
I don't know if that's true or not, but I'm relieved to hear it just the same. I hope that's true and I hope my recommender gets his letter to them this week. Sigh.
Gagh! Anyone else noticing that transcripts are not where they should be? My u-grad school cashed my check but no one seems to have received my transcript! (Fume, fume)
Wisconsin emailed me to say "you have items missing. This is your last warning." Last warning? Huh, wah? Turns out it's that transcript and other schools are missing the same one.
And, U. South Carolina saying one of my profs. didn't submit his rec. when I have a confirmation email from the same school saying he did!
Now I wonder, do I annoy 13 schools to see if they have everything? Or, just wait to see who contacts me?
@Blob: Me too. My referee evidently found her letter for me in her house a while back. >>; It has been mailed, and thankfully she told me so I could tell the concerned authorities. But it was quite a hooooly-crap moment >>;
so i reported this to the fb group yesterday, butttt...
i got an email from ohio state yesterday saying that my application was incomplete because they hadn't got a letter from one of my recommenders. i fixed the problem right away [or, uh, he called, which i assumed fixed the problem, i'm waiting on a reply from the person who emailed me] but i was kind of nervous because the email said that my application wouldn't be submitted to the mfa committee until they got that letter! i wonder if they've started reading yet? they couldn't possibly read all those samples [or even, you know, the 5 pages or whatever that mfa committees make their prelim yes/no/maybe piles from] in the ~2 weeks til they notify, could they?
idk. it's made me terribly nervous. can it be decision time yet?
@Blob, Late to the party, but I just wanted to say that I had almost the exact same issue (one of my recommenders couldn't upload the Texas rec because of a broken link) and it didn't get sorted till yesterday, so you're def. not alone! However, I think it should be fine so long as the letter gets there eventually? And if they're interested in you, they should try to chase the letter up, rather than just throwing out the app.
(plus, they probably didn't start reading samples properly till last week, and I doubt they've got around to checking LORs yet, so it won't seem as late to them as it does to you!)
ugh, did people send 'unofficial' gre scores to FSU? Turns out you needed to send photocopies of your GRE statement in with your application packet, even though it doesn't say so anywhere on the site, and they are no longer accepting them. So my application is officially defunct. FML
@Remy I did, but unfortunately after talking with the department things don't sound/look good for me. :( Maybe she misunderstood me or I misunderstood her, there's always a small glimmer of hope. But when they start notifying, I'm not expecting anything. Sigh. Glad I applied to 14 and 4 schools.
@Blob: Well I think that's silly that they'd eliminate you for not submitting unofficial scores when they have your official ones. But what do I know? Anyway, don't beat yourself up about it. When you're applying to all these schools, it's almost impossible not to have a mixup/screwup along the way. (Last night I realized Johns Hopkins requires recommendation forms with their LORs, so I'm probably going to have my application DQ'd when I submit it this week.) The whole process is maddening.
Thanks. yeah, it's a hard process. But you're right, no point in crying over spilled milk.
Getting very anxious for full fledged notification season (which is obviously right around the corner). I just want to know one way or the other!
In other news, the very, very nice lady who answers the phone at UT's Michener center told me that LORs aren't looked at until the 3rd round. The first round is just reading samples. She didn't specify what the 2nd round is, but I assume a closer read of samples and maybe SOPs too? Either way, I thought it was interesting to get a little more insight as to how their admissions process works.
@ Blob Unless I misunderstood, FSU wanted you to upload copies of your GRE report. Which is what I did. BUT! My scan was so large the website wouldn't accept it, which led to my trying to resize, cursing, resizing, cursing, and on and on. I eventually uploaded something so tiny that I doubt anyone could actually read it. So, even though I did submit mine, they're still kinda worthless. I hope they still accept your app; it would be silly to dismiss it for something so trivial.
All is not lost! Thank you to the person who suggested the maiden name / married name dilemma with transcripts. UW-Madison had my maiden name transcripts in the 'no application' box! Woot! that was a close call.
No problemo! It happened to me with with a few of the apps. I guess that's why a lot of people finish schooling first before getting married. Oh well! :)
Wanted to let everyone know that I got an email from South Carolina saying that they received about 100 apps and expect to notify by early February. Good luck to all those who applied :)
@Marti You're totally right that South Carolina's 100 apps doesn't feel like a lot, but considering that the last reported number for them (from Seth's data) was 38, that's pretty impressive growth. They definitely seem to be on the up and up.
Here's a new one: I sent my Florida app off USPS Priority, with delivery confirmation. It should have gotten there Monday, but it didn't--maybe, who knows? Anyhow, USPS cannot, for some reason, verify that it was delivered. Which begs the question: what exactly are you getting when you pay for delivery confirmation? Anyhow, much to my surprise, I got the long-suffering and heretofore notional Carla Blount on the phone, but she says they have a pile of 600 envelopes in the office, so obviously she can't help me. Postmark deadline: 1/14. Florida, for some reason, wanted the transcripts mailed with the writing sample. No way I can get those together again in time.
I'm going to send another package off with my writing sample, printouts of unofficial transcripts, and a pathetic note. Even if the other package never gets there, maybe they'll have pity and read what I sent.
That may well be -- is likely -- the total for the entire English Department (including traditional M.A. and Ph.D. applicants). Many programs report their figures by Department, not program. So: Department of English, not MFA program. And some administrative staff may not appreciate (or want to acknowledge) the difference, which leaves them claiming a figure that means one thing actually means another. It's one of the difficulties of data collection re: MFA programs. I don't at all believe that UF MFA applications increased by more than 50% this year, as that number would suggest. Not even UCSD saw that kind of increase, and it was a revelation this year (partly as a new, fully-funded program starting out from a low[er] number of apps). If anything, we'd expect a modest increase in apps, and possibly a plateauing.
I wonder if some of the southern schools will be slightly delayed from their usual notification dates this year because of the snow they got recently. I don't know how bad it is everywhere but I know Atlanta and the schools there are going on their fourth snow day! And I know parts of Tennessee are iced up as well.
I had the same problem. Delivery confirmation on my packet shows it made it to Gainesville, but doesn't say whether it was delivered to UF or not. I figured (and hoped) it was a matter of someone forgetting to scan something when they dropped it off with everyone else's, and it is actually there safely. I've heard of this happening, albeit more rarely. But if it made it to Gainesville, that's far enough for me.
It does make you wonder, though, what exactly we're paying for when we get delivery confirmation...
To be fair there's no way for the post office to track that an item was delivered anywhere but post office of the designated city without a signature. There is an option to get a signature which confirms delivery at location. But otherwise, there's literally no way to track it. It would be entirely impractical and inefficient to have mailmen log in that they put something in a specific mailbox or not.
Plus if something has a postmark deadline even if it arrives late or delayed, it doesn't matter. You're postmarked!
@blob: I would settle for confirmation that it got to Gainesville. All they will confirm is that it was accepted at MY post office. Which, duh, I was there!
RE: USPS Tracking, actually USPS does have a tracking mechanism that tracks whether an item was delivered (it involves bar codes that are, ideally, scanned at every step), but you have to pay for it, and you have to send the package Priority to get it.
@Jonathan
I had a package, with tracking, get delivered and it never showed up in USPS' online status-check thingy. So it definitely does happen that mailmen fail to scan a package when delivering.
I was curious about all this myself, so I checked the USPS website. There is a way to send it called Signature Confirmation which (naturally) requires a signature at delivery. But with plain old Delivery Confirmation, they just attach a barcode to it and the package is scanned at each stop along the way. And like Raine said, that should include the actual, final delivery. I sent four of my packets through Delivery Confirmation (wish I'd sent them all that way) and the USPS confirmed that three out of four were delivered to their destinations at such and such times. Only Florida remains... But like I said, I'm hoping that just means the mailman forgot to scan it for the final delivery.
another note about florida, it's possible also that it's held up. I don't know what route it would go through but a lot of the south is shut down. Atlanta, for example, which is a big post and air hub, has been closed for 4 days. Literally, the city has been closed. I imagine there are similar issues in other parts of the south. So maybe it hasn't gotten to where it really needs to go yet...
but you should be fine since you're postmarked and all.
Good point, Seth. RE:multiple programs in one department. I neglected to consider that entirely. I guess that's how easy it is for baseless statistics to start flying!
Just got a very nice message from Grant Jolliff @ UNCG about a missing item. It heartens me to no end to know someone is actually going through all these application materials and letting me know if anything is amiss!
RE: the Gainesville mail issue...I know this is not a positive bit of info, but I used to live there and the post is notoriously baaaad. I lived in the same house for two years and they lost stuff all the time. On the plus side to those of you who applied...it's a fun town to live in!
I was talking to my brother on the phone last night. He's been surprisingly attentive and interested in the process. We had an interesting conversation about the differences in the admissions process for fiction applicants versus poetry applicants.
He asked about how many people had 'no business' applying, something I didn't have an answer to, obviously. But I did suggest that although there were more fiction applicants there were probably also more fiction applicants who were unqualified/would automatically end up in the 'no' pile. To me, it seems like people who stick around with poetry might be less likely to be under-developed writers because it's a less-accessible genre. What do you all think?
The other thing that came up that got me thinking was whether it was easier to determine 'good fiction' than 'good poetry.' My brother asked if I thought poetry was a bit more subjective than fiction. I answered yes, only because it seems like there is a lot more stylistic range and something that seems like gibberish to one reader might be a brilliant sound poem to another. Whereas with prose, I'm inclined to think there are more general 'rules' that make something good. But maybe I'm wrong.
Anyway, the conversation got me thinking about the differences in perception/reading of the two genres and I wanted to share and see what others thought.
Good points. "Good" fiction, I think, is (very broadly) about creating suspense. And not suspense as in the genre -- rather the writer is charged with urging readers to continue turning page after page, to keep their eyes moving hungrily over the prose without relying on a gimmick.
Poetry (unless epic) doesn't seem to require the suspense.
I suppose it's true that poetry doesn't need to create suspense necessarily, but it does need it evoke emotion of some kind or another.
But, having said that, I do think prose has some structure-- for example, a plot is usually expected as is some structure of a 'beginning-middle-end.' characters should be developed to a certain extent, etc.
where as I feel poetry can become more like visual art where splattering paint can either be brilliant (pollack) or amateur, depending on how it's executed, or how it's viewed. Granted, I think a lot of poets, myself included, don't write that kind of poetry. My aim is always to make my poetry accessible. But I do think there's always more room for interpretation and therefore more room for disagreement about the quality.
Would anyone recommend dropping off apps in person? I am applying to 3 programs very nearby and it'd be easy for me to drop them off during the week. Have any of you done this or do you think it'd be frowned upon? I just worry about things getting lost in the mail!
When you request transcripts from your undergrad institution, how long does it take for them to send them? I am sure it varies, but does anyone have a ballpark figure?
It seems that some universities (Rutgers, as far as I know) allow applicants to send photocopies or scanned files of their GRE or TOEFL scores, rather than have them pay +-$20 just for an official notification. Which means a good idea to check if each university specifically asks for the scores to be sent directly from ETS.
It seems that some universities (Rutgers, as far as I know) allow applicants to send photocopies or scanned files of their GRE or TOEFL scores, rather than have them pay +-$20 just for an official notification. Which means a good idea to check if each university specifically asks for the scores to be sent directly from ETS.
Looks like you're in NYC. Def drop them off. Don't pay for/worry about mail if you don't have to!
As for transcripts...at my ug school, you can pay $20.00 or something to have it rushed, which means like 2 biz day turnaround. You might be able to call your UG registrar's office and personally arrange to pay for fed ex overnight if you're in a bind.
@X: There you go then. Hehehe, that just made me giggle. But I was actually wondering a while back how authentic some of the parts of people's applications are. I don't know about the US, but in India it quite often happens that a person writes out their own reference statements. Which was kind of ... weird to me, when someone asked me, halfway through the process, if I was done writing my own references. xD But really, are there parts that could be fake and does that really work? >_<
@AK: I don't know about US schools (but wow, 2 days? I'm envious!) but one of mine took 15 days to process the request, and someone had to stand in line to submit the form and then stand in line to get said transcripts and we had to send them on our own. The other one was better and sent it as well, but there was no direct process of applying - you had to wait, and there were loads of lines involved. I'm actually curious about how it works in the States too.
Akatsuki: One of my recommenders asked me to write a letter for myself that could tinker with and sign. It was an excruciating task, let me tell you--absolutely the hardest part of this whole process.
Okay, still no confirmation of delivery from Gainesville, so I'm sending another packet off, with unofficial transcripts this time. Best I can do. I wonder if I should bother to pay for delivery confirmation again.
Haha about the fake certificates. Did you find out if you still have to take TOEFL or anything like that for UCSD? I checked with them and was told exactly what you posted: that if english an international's mother tongue they don't have to take TOEFL, so thanks for that.
@ Anyone with background knowledge about UCSD, do you know if they are like UC Irvine in that international students are not given funding if accepted? I cannot seem to find/get a straight answer on this.
Also, and can anyone speak a bit about the university of wyoming's program? aside from location (being apart of the great plains), weather (being very cold) and having (it appears) an increase in their number applicants, i don't know much about the program. So again, anyone with knowledge, let me know?
That's great new's about the TOEFL in relation to UCSD! And, even better news about your recommender. Keeping my fingers crossed that we both get in somewhere.
so the jan 15th deadline for oregon and penn state is approaching and i'm missing two letters for ore and one for penn... does anyone know if these are schools that will read the samples and worry about the letters later or if they're sticklers about it? one of my letter of rec writers turned out to be flakier than i anticipated.
my email from ohio state's now made me all paranoid. i'm actually still kind of irritated about how they run things; i understand saying that they need your letters and letting you know so you can tell your rec writer to re-send it, but to hold a sample back for review because of one missing letter... blerg.
@ Blob: I'm sorry about FSU! Did anything else happen with that? I emailed them freaking out but I guess I did upload my unofficial transcript, I just forgot. But I don't think I sent them my official transcript... but Janet Atwater in the English dept said they have everything they needed, and that transcripts have to go to Admissions. Which, since I didn't do, my application is essentially incomplete too since they aren't accepting anything else. Sigh. I didn't think I had to. I was so confused. I wish this process was streamlined. I'd hate for half my applications to be pointless because of some paperwork problems.
It seems like a lot of schools are sticklers or at least have a firm cut off date for materials to come in. I guess maybe they have to keep things from getting out of control. But it definitely makes things hard with recommenders.
But some schools also seem to be really wonderful about it, Wisconsin and UT for example.
@Jami Sigh, life is hard. But I have nothing to do but hope that either they're not actually as strict as they talk, or that I'll get in somewhere so I can distract myself for having made this mistake.
Phew! Just submitted the last of my applications and I'm too exhausted (after the whole process and a nasty bout of flu) to worry about whether they'll get there on time!
@Alison: I think one space after the period works. And that's not an amateur hour question at all. As a newspaper journalist, I had to look up that rule myself (b/c I know the English/MLA world does things differently).
@X: XD; This process has been endlessly amusing, on the good days. On the bad days, there was much curling into a fetal position, infinite whining and substance abuse (of course, I'm less cool than most - so the substance in question was tea, but still). But the whole thing does have the effect of a tragicomedy derived from Murphy's laws, I think.
@Blob: Yikes. On the other hand, the second one (Resolutions) kind of balanced out that aura, ne? :)
@Alison: One space after sentences is standard in, I think, every major style. AP Style, MLA, Chicago Manual of Style, etc. Double spaces after sentences are just a hold-out from the technological limitations of manual typewriters, and a bit of an anachronism. Slate happened to run a funny piece on this very topic yesterday! http://www.slate.com/id/2281146/
Hey all, this is a great site, although I feel somewhat late to the party. I wish I had found this site earlier.
Forgive a new face and (probably) a question that has already been discussed to death. If you have insight:
In the MFA Handbook, it refers to Oregon's numbers declining due to recent bad press regarding some Oregon faculty. Oregon happened to be on my list this year-- does anyone know what that bad press was and whether the issue has been resolved?
Well, it's flash fiction. And we're supposed to be writers-- I thought people would enjoy. Plus I found it ironically hilarious how applicable that first story was.
But I mean, geez, I didn't mean to upset anyone's sensibilities. I certainly didn't expect a response like that, not sure what to make of it..
From my understanding there is a poetry faculty member who has quite a strong personality and quite a bit of influence over the department. Some people love the professor, others find the professor very difficult to work with. The problem hasn't changed, but for some it's not a problem. If you're a fiction applicant, it won't apply to you at all. If you're a poet, like me, you just need to weigh how much working with someone who might be potentially difficult will negatively influence your writing or mfa experience.
I am a poet and chose to apply, though I did choose NOT to apply to another school because of faculty issues (U.New Mexico). The way I see it, the program is established, it's not in a state of turmoil. And I'm tough cookie when it comes to my writing. Plus, I figure if I'm accepted that means that the faculty member in question likes my work and chances are we'll work out fine because it likely isn't an aesthetic issue.
Kind of a random question, but I've recently had work accepted to publications that are more prestigious than the publications listed on my CV. Is it worthwhile to email schools that ask for a CV and let them know.
I can't really imagine someone deciding to accept me based on that fact, but people close to me who know nothing of the process seem to think it matters.
It's your call but I wouldn't, not unless you could do it in a way without bothering them (like sneakily upload an updated CV online, if they allow it, but most wouldn't I'd imagine).
Let the writing sample speak for you. Have faith in it! It's all about that writing sample. No amount of publications will trump that in importance.
DMC - No. Nooooo. Don't do it. You run the risk of sounding very pretentious, even though I know you have good intentions are and are just trying to help your chances. Just remember that they don't know you and will likely take it the wrong way. Awesome's right, it's about your sample. If you're getting published by strong journals, chances are your sample is going to be well received.
I am in your same boat as of Thursday morning. I went back and forth on this, but decided to go with "leave it". I was thinking from the perspective of the committee members. The department admin gets an email from one of hundreds of applicants:"just letting you know that...". I dunno. Doesn't seem like the right move. Let's say they've read my work and like it. In that case, it REALLY doesn't matter. Let's say they've read it and they either 1) don't like it or 2) I'm on the fence. I don't think they would read my "just letting you know" email and drop everything to sift through the piles and re-read my sample with new eyes. In other words, I don't think the news (while a big deal for me, personally) would change anyone's mind. I mean...are we talking "prestigious" like game-changer? Like Atlantic Monthly or The New Yorker? I would say let the recent publication give you confidence in your work and (like awesomeface says) faith that someone on a reading committee will feel similar confidence.
Thanks for the advice. That was my impulse in the first place, until some people said, "Oh you should call the admissions office and let them know. It can only help your chances."
Once again proof that you have to go through this process to understand it.
5 hours away from Kolkata? Certainly not in the Sunderbans! Btw, have you read 'The Hungry Tide' by Amitav Ghosh?
I live in Bangalore. And yes, I am going to the Jaipur Lit Fest. Super excited. I'm going to get my copy of 'Che' autographed by Jon Lee Anderson. Any chance you can come?
@Rags: XD Nono, try JHARKHAND. *nods solemnly* That's where I am anyway, generally speaking. Bangalore? Lit Fest?! I'm totally envious on both accounts. Bangalore is brilliant and most of my friends live there -- and I'm dying to go to the Jaipur Literary Festival, but I'm recently employed (aaaha?) as a substitute school teacher, so ... no way I can run away mid term. But yay for people from India applying for MFAs? Are you applying for Poetry or Fiction? *is applying for Fiction herself* Andandand... no, I'm out. :D
Is anyone else having trouble with the University of Illinois online application? It won't let me submit my application until I tell them which term I plan to start, but there aren't any options in the drop down list. The application has to be submitted by tomorrow at noon and no one is available to help me today because it's Sunday. Any advice is greatly appreciated...
i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but i'm pretty sure that deadline was actually the 17th of DECEMBER at noon. that is, if you mean university of illinois at urbana-champaign. sorry! :(
Shivani acts like he's some incredibly successful writer, who we should also listen to carefully. I haven't read any of his work, he may be very talented. And he's certainly more successful than I am, or may ever be, but he's not exactly a household name-- not even close. Not to say that doesn't give him a right to an opinion. But it does make him giving advice on how to be a writer make me want to roll my eyes.
More so than that, he seems so hell-bent on bringing down the MFA 'system.' But here's the thing, it shouldn't be such a big deal. A person can choose to do an mfa or not and can be successful or not either way. I understand someone thinking the degree is self-indulgent and unnecessary, but fine-- it's not for you. But to claim it's destroying the literary world to the extent that Shivani does not only seems ridiculous, it also seems petty.
And right now, yes, I'd rather listen to mfa professors, take the time to write and learn, and play into the 'publishing' game than listen to someone who hasn't proven themselves to really know much more about the business than any one who's well-read and writes actively.
Scanning through the "where are you applying?" posts, I've become frightened by just how many people have applied to the same schools I have... and I can't stop eating this jar of peanut butter.
Can March please come so I can be put out of my misery?
What's terrible is that this will get so much worse.
"Every audience ever known to man is stupid. It's stupid because it takes itself seriously. No great writer ever wrote for the audience at hand."
No, evidently every writer wrote in a tiny hole in the wall, deriving inspiration from oblivion and communicating with nothing. I... really don't understand this. I don't understand it to the point of being driven utterly crazy - are we supposed to be "above" the masses or something like that? What the hell is the point of being a writer if you're writing to yourself? >_< Introspection and isolation is necessary, but is all good art supposed to come from misery? (I', being a good girl and not quoting Emily Dickinson here, of course *headdesk*) Are writers supposed to be unhappy and disconnected from other people? How are they supposed to grow, and what do they write about, tomatoes?
Gah. I'm annoyed by that article. I'm going to subscribe to Blob's wonderfully articulate and politely worded opinion, and pretend I don't have tactless words bubbling in my brain. -.-
Serious question: Do the lot of you understand that a large part of getting an MFA is dealing with differing opinions--listening to the opinions in a respectful way and not jumping to your own guns and having your mind made up immediately? Because, every time I read an opinion that strays from the general precepts of this blog and Seth's MFA philosophy (funding, etc)--every time someone sways from this general opinion, or brings up questions that you might not agree with (which I have done myself), the majority of you resort to ad hominem attacks on the person in question, or some other baseless form of argument. Or you just try to discredit something someone wrote simply by saying it's nonsense (or some similar statement)....
Take this article, for example. I get the feeling that many of you don't realize that a. the article is polemic (like many of this guy's articles) and b. the article is written for an intended audience. Those who have been rejected by MFA programs can presumably gain some encouragement from this article. Fuck, those who are in MFA programs, and are unhappy about the way the programs are working out, can presumably take comfort in this.
Most of you are not in an MFA program yet. Good luck getting into one, but before you get into one, I wouldn't act as if this guy doesn't make valid points. And some of his points are valid. I don't agree with everything, but can we try to have a bit more nuance on here? It seems like most of you are absolutists when it comes to opinions. Seriously, I expect more from a bunch of book/writing nerds. The level of discourse on here, when someone attacks your supposed sacred cows (which an artist shouldn't have) has all the nuance of the Republican party's stance on abortion. This is why I rarely participate in discussion. Maybe now that it's been pointed out, things will change.
Actually, I agree with probably 99.9% of everything the article says, and I'm very much pro-MFA. For what it's worth. I might get into this tomorrow, if anyone's interested in having a serious discussion on the article and not just Oh no he attacked the MFA!
J, if you want to talk about how you feel about that article, please do -- I think that was the point of posting the link anyway.
However, I feel compelled to say this: The fact that all three people who have thus far commented on the article have a negative opinion of it does not automatically mean that we all believe in exactly the same thing. I think I see shades of disagreement here, which is also part of dealing with differing opinions, isn't it? That is, to have your own opinion, to choose between dominant shades and subscribe to the one you feel is most accurate, from your perspective.
I find it a little disagreeable that you think this means the people who have read/commented on the article did not actually pause to think, or subscribe - in totality - to Seth's/this blog's philosophy without pausing to think about different aspects. Just because a large number of people believe something doesn't mean it's automatically a "herd mentality".
Basically I think he has a structural problem. Granted, given the purpose of this blog, we're all interested in the MFA knock in the introduction-- but I don't think the article is a knock on the MFA as much as a rant on publishing in general. The article refutes "truths" introduced in his first paragraph– a fine exercise, but he doesn’t credit the truths, which leads him vulnerable to criticism. The structural basis of the article relies on the reader agreeing that: the MFA system is conformity-driven (he doesn't back up this statement, which leads him vulnerable to an observation: how can Iowa produce Philip Roth, Michael Cunningham, and Paul Harding, if it’s conformity driven– they don’t write anything like each other); the editors are overpaid (do you know any editors? If you don’t, look it up on salary.com, overworked, perhaps, but not overpaid), illiterate agents (really? Now he’s got a real problem, dubious statements, earlier, to the ridiculous) and, yet, like a ball rolling down a hill, he adds the word “arrogant” (gatekeepers) in his next sentence. He’s created an introduction with no basis in reality, but expects to have readers take him seriously, but the use of “arrogant” after an introduction like that, is something like the kettle and the pot. The cherry on top, of course, is “stupid” reviewers, who want to bargain away your soul for pittance. Again, I’d ask him to credit this statement. What makes reviewers stupid? If he had said “Stupid reviewers who shunned F. Scott Fitzgerald and torched Hemingway but gladly accepted Clive Cussler” he’d have a basis to stand on; but he doesn’t go there, so we simply have to take his word for it “stupid” reviewers, “overpaid” editors, “arrogant” gatekeepers (which he doesn’t define), and “conformity-driven MFA.”
Because he doesn’t back any of this up, when he, in a similarly arrogant tone in the rest of the article, advises readers on how to start publishing careers, the only credit he has to advise us is his name– which makes the article, in essence, about him, not his facts. And he, is clearly full of anger about something. Which leads him vulnerable to the question: why would I want to listen to/learn from an angry person who isn’t thinking straight or backing up his points? Angry people tend not to want to give out reasonable advice but instead ejaculate their vehemence. Ok, mission accomplished, but I’m, personally, no better for having read it.
Now, if I was in an angry point in my life, too, perhaps I would feel some kinship, etc. And that’s fine. But he loses his ability to make the points he wants to make, seriously, because of his structural problem in presenting it. In that sense, it’s a poorly written article– about writing– which again, discredits his cause.
Basically I think he has a structural problem. Granted, given the purpose of this blog, we're all interested in the MFA knock in the introduction-- but I don't think the article is a knock on the MFA as much as a rant on publishing in general. The article refutes "truths" introduced in his first paragraph– a fine exercise, but he doesn’t credit the truths, which leads him vulnerable to criticism. The structural basis of the article relies on the reader agreeing that: the MFA system is conformity-driven (he doesn't back up this statement, which leads him vulnerable to an observation: how can Iowa produce Philip Roth, Michael Cunningham, and Paul Harding, if it’s conformity driven– they don’t write anything like each other); the editors are overpaid (do you know any editors? If you don’t, look it up on salary.com, overworked, perhaps, but not overpaid), illiterate agents (really? Now he’s got a real problem, dubious statements, earlier, to the ridiculous) and, yet, like a ball rolling down a hill, he adds the word “arrogant” (gatekeepers) in his next sentence. He’s created an introduction with no basis in reality, but expects to have readers take him seriously, but the use of “arrogant” after an introduction like that, is something like the kettle and the pot. The cherry on top, of course, is “stupid” reviewers, who want to bargain away your soul for pittance. Again, I’d ask him to credit this statement. What makes reviewers stupid? If he had said “Stupid reviewers who shunned F. Scott Fitzgerald and torched Hemingway but gladly accepted Clive Cussler” he’d have a basis to stand on; but he doesn’t go there, so we simply have to take his word for it “stupid” reviewers, “overpaid” editors, “arrogant” gatekeepers (which he doesn’t define), and “conformity-driven MFA.”
Because he doesn’t back any of this up, when he, in a similarly arrogant tone in the rest of the article, advises readers on how to start publishing careers, the only credit he has to advise us is his name– which makes the article, in essence, about him, not his facts. And he, is clearly full of anger about something. Which leads him vulnerable to the question: why would I want to listen to/learn from an angry person who isn’t thinking straight or backing up his points? Angry people tend not to want to give out reasonable advice but instead ejaculate their vehemence. Ok, mission accomplished, but I’m, personally, no better for having read it.
Now, if I was in an angry point in my life, too, perhaps I would feel some kinship, etc. And that’s fine. But he loses his ability to make the points he wants to make, seriously, because of his structural problem in presenting it. In that sense, it’s a poorly written article– about writing– which again, discredits his cause.
Basically I think he has a structural problem. Granted, given the purpose of this blog, we're all interested in the MFA knock in the introduction-- but I don't think the article is a knock on the MFA as much as a rant on publishing in general. The article refutes "truths" introduced in his first paragraph– a fine exercise, but he doesn’t credit the truths, which leads him vulnerable to criticism. The structural basis of the article relies on the reader agreeing that: the MFA system is conformity-driven (he doesn't back up this statement, which leads him vulnerable to an observation: how can Iowa produce Philip Roth, Michael Cunningham, and Paul Harding, if it’s conformity driven– they don’t write anything like each other); the editors are overpaid (do you know any editors? If you don’t, look it up on salary.com, overworked, perhaps, but not overpaid), illiterate agents (really? Now he’s got a real problem, dubious statements, earlier, to the ridiculous) and, yet, like a ball rolling down a hill, he adds the word “arrogant” (gatekeepers) in his next sentence. He’s created an introduction with no basis in reality, but expects to have readers take him seriously, but the use of “arrogant” after an introduction like that, is something like the kettle and the pot. The cherry on top, of course, is “stupid” reviewers, who want to bargain away your soul for pittance. Again, I’d ask him to credit this statement. What makes reviewers stupid? If he had said “Stupid reviewers who shunned F. Scott Fitzgerald and torched Hemingway but gladly accepted Clive Cussler” he’d have a basis to stand on; but he doesn’t go there, so we simply have to take his word for it “stupid” reviewers, “overpaid” editors, “arrogant” gatekeepers (which he doesn’t define), and “conformity-driven MFA.”
Because he doesn’t back any of this up, when he, in a similarly arrogant tone in the rest of the article, advises readers on how to start publishing careers, the only credit he has to advise us is his name– which makes the article, in essence, about him, not his facts. And he, is clearly full of anger about something. Which leads him vulnerable to the question: why would I want to listen to/learn from an angry person who isn’t thinking straight or backing up his points? Angry people tend not to want to give out reasonable advice but instead ejaculate their vehemence. Ok, mission accomplished, but I’m, personally, no better for having read it.
Now, if I was in an angry point in my life, too, perhaps I would feel some kinship, etc. And that’s fine. But he loses his ability to make the points he wants to make, seriously, because of his structural problem in presenting it. In that sense, it’s a poorly written article– about writing– which again, discredits his cause.
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, I think Anis may have ripped off my favorite Nietzsche quote:
"Of all that is written, I love only what a person hath written with his blood. Write with blood, and thou wilt find that blood is spirit.
It is no easy task to understand unfamiliar blood; I hate the reading idlers.
He who knoweth the reader, doeth nothing more for the reader. Another century of readers—and spirit itself will stink.
Every one being allowed to learn to read, ruineth in the long run not only writing but also thinking."
The whole "written by committee" thing might not allow for the above to happen. There is a social element to MFA programs (and shit, to publishing in general) that takes away from the unique individual expression from the writer. There's a lot of "pleasing" that inevitably happens, whether the writer is fully conscious of it or not.
On the flip side, however, is the fact that it is absolutely impossible to distance yourself from community. The only true "individual" is one who, well, isn't alive. Every social being is infiltrated by society. Again, whether he or she is conscious of it or not. It's no different than writing. We are the produce of what we read, who we talk to, who reads and comments of our work. So, even if I don't seek a "committee" for my writing, one will inevitably, albeit loosely, form.
It's interesting because Anis' comments always seem to have a philosophical spin on it that makes it unpractical. It puts into this abstract (and romanticized) realm that is unfair to push on everybody. Just my two cents :P
A.S. says, "Be rebellious," to which I say, "Don't tell me what to do!" Actually I'm sympathetic to much of what he says. It's more or less what I told myself at age 17, 22, 34, etc. And I think the attitude served me well in many ways (even if it didn't tend to produce a lot of actual pages), but "Be rebellious" is useless as advice.
BPM said most of what I would say and better than I could, so I'll try not to be too repetitive.
But I did want to say that I think your assumption that no one wanted to discuss an opposite view point was preemptive. No one said a counter point wasn't too be appreciated or comments against the 'mfa code' would be deleted and posters burned at the stake. I'm honestly a little shocked at your reaction, especially given that only two people (myself included) had even responded to the article. I never balk away from or reject another side to the argument. I was simply stating my point of view.
It's not that I think the mfa is the end all or be all of writing. And I do fully understand that Shivani has a particular audience. I was just trying to express why I wasn't that audience and won't be the audience regardless of whether I get into a program or not. Sure, I can rebel against the system, but that won't get me published and if I don't get published I won't get read so who cares? Having said that I don't think publishing is the point. But I also don't think being privately brilliant is the point either.
What irked me most about the article is that Shivani approaches it like a master, when he hasn't earned the right to claim to be one, even if he has valid points. For example, I've ridden and worked with horses most of my life. I've trained horses for the past 10 years. I think I know some really valuable things about training that others don't know, even other reputable trainers. But I'd never write a 'how to train a horse correctly' article for a riding publication because I have nothing to my name to prove I'm any good. Even if my advice was good people would say 'who the heck is this kid?' I sort of feel the same way about Shivani writing this article. Having said that I think there are other ways to share his opinions and advice without it potentially rubbing people the wrong way.
I also think the way to comfort people who don't want to attend or didn't get into an mfa program is to talk about how publishers don't really look for mfa's and that hundreds of successful writers don't have them. And that hundreds of mfa graduates do not become successful writers. Claiming it's ruining the industry just seems melodramatic.
"The only true "individual" is one who, well, isn't alive."
The Heidegger is practically bleeding through my screen a la "Amityville Horror," and as an admitted philosophy junkie, I'm loving it. Dasein. Bitchslapped awake by the ghost of a dead philosopher. I can't wait until I'm dead so that I can finally be authentic. Them crazy Germans, out in the world and mindfucking the masses. Am I crazy?
Sorry, that came out a little bizarre. My minds on Heidegger and Husserl. I won't be able to sleep tonight.
From my observation, most people on the blog are open to honest, courteous discussion of any kind. I think much of the problem with Shivani’s article was its tone which, as J mentioned, was clearly polemical, and not in the least bit courteous. I thought he offered some good advice, particularly regarding the need to focus on one’s writing over and above any desire to publish or “get famous,” but it was generally angry, overstated, and lacking any sort of nuance.
For example, as others have already mentioned, he says, “The system…will never reward originality.” But what is “the system?” For Shivani it appears to be everything related to the MFA or the publishing industry, despite the fact that the there are significant differences between them (remember that Slate article from a while ago, MFA vs. NYC?). And does the system include small presses, like the one that published Shivani’s short story collection, or literary journals (often associated with universities), like the ones that have published his stories? Don’t the vast majority of MFA grads, if they publish at all, end up in those same small presses and lit journals?
Okay, admittedly that was a little ad hominem. But I think my point is that Shivani’s use of the term “system” lacks any sort of understanding of the vast divergences within both the MFA and the publishing industry, and by one measure he himself is participating in what he loathes.
Another statement that got me: “Every audience ever known to man is stupid.” Now, I get his point, and I agree with it. Write what you think is good, not what you think will please others. But he loses me with generalizations like these. Can people get caught up in groupthink? At times, absolutely. But are we all nothing but blind sheep? I hope not! (And I don’t think so). If a book receives near unanimous praise (no praise is ever completely unanimous), does it have to be because we humans can’t think for ourselves? What if it’s just really good?
Also, a final side note, related to J’s critcism: I didn’t read Shivani’s article as being about the MFA at all, and I don’t think most people’s dislike of it has anything to do with some sort of visceral, MFA-defending instinct.
J, I don't mean to sound cynical here, but I seriously doubt Shivani's aim is to "comfort" anyone, much less people who have been rejected from MFA programs. I'm pretty sure his intended audience is Sharon Olds and Jonathan Franzen. That being said, I think I kind of like the guy. I always read his pieces fully prepared to get pissed off, and then I always end up kind of loving them. I don't know what he's up to, and I think he's 99% hot air, but I think he's fun.
In general, I just wanted to say (and I'm sorry if this is too much sharing -- I'm soaked to the gills with cold medicine) that the whole anti-MFA thing is crazy. I got an MFA. It was a happy, mellow, enriching experience. No one tried to influence me to write a certain way, and every writer in my class had his or her own unique style. I just don't get the big deal. Either you want to get an MFA, or you don't. It seems crazy to me to care so much about what other people are doing. Mostly I'm thinking of that Elif Batumen article a while back.
@Jesse - I was a philosophy major, so I also love that stuff, crazy as I am. I also can't seem to put a sentence together, which is apparent from my last post, haha. I think I need to slow down and proofread a bit. Anyway. I just think it's funny when creative types try to be the philosopher or something. It comes across as narcissistic and ill-informed. I'm sure when I try to be the literary/creative type I come across that way too, though :P
Really, Anis' statements sound well and good, but he has little trust in our ability to take the experience for what it is. He creates this dichotomy that either we submit fully to the committee or distance ourselves entirely by living off berries in the mountains somewhere. How about I, a collection of experiences, enter a program with a little cynicism and skepticism, but also with a little open-mindedness and take every comment/reading/relationship on a case by case basis,for what it is, whatever it may be *for me*. I may not be able to distance myself entirely from the committee, but he should trust that I'm not an idiot and that I can take it for it is. I get that that's a vague statement, but it's only because I acknowledge the fact that choice is a tricky thing and I recognize that the "committee" will inevitably have an impact on me. But I'm okay with that and I assume everyone here is as well...
Scaryrobot - I completely agree with you that you either want it or you don't, and that it's nobody's business either way. I wonder if all the hullabaloo about it, however, is due to the fact that many attribute MFA programs to the downfall of modern literature precisely because it is based on "group-think" for lack of a better word, and tends to create "trends." I really, really agree that modern writing is very trendy (blech), but I think any connection to MFA programs is pretty tiny. It's as much a problem with publishing companies, sales, and public opinion, which I guess is what Anis is saying. I don't know. I just don't think it's so simple. Good writers move beyond trends and group-think and will probably just be appreciated posthumously anyway. I mean, I'm not a history buff, but hasn't this been the case with literature since forever, especially in the last century? I would imagine so, precisely because good writing transcends trends while most people cling to trends because they are incapable of seeing beyond them. It's only until centuries later that they appreciate the stuff, and mostly because their teachers told them to. Cynical? You bet your ass I am :D
The English Dept's website clearly states that all application materials should be sent directly to them. They also request that you complete the online application. On the online application, there are a number of required statements that the Dept. of English isn't interested in (i.e. a biographical statement (different from the statement of purpose), a statement of research/interests, etc.). Do I just ignore these and send in the requirements to the English Dept. as specified on the dept. website? Others applying to SIUC: what did you do?
I spoke to them on the phone last week, and they said you can ignore anything that's not on the English department website, and if you upload stuff online, you do not need to send it to the department.
Also, they were extremely nice and helpful on the phone, for what it's worth.
Hmmm, just read some more by Anis Shivani. Is it wrong for me to totally agree with him about modern literature? I mean, I completely agree with him. I don't necessarily agree with him about the MFA, but I maybe I'll change that opinion if/when I get into one?
"The conventions of literary fiction are that the bourgeois hero (more likely the heroine) be vulnerable, prone to shame and guilt, unable to fit the pieces of the larger puzzle together, and on the same banal moral plane as the 'average reader': sympathetic, in other words, someone we can 'identify' with, who reflects our own incomprehension of the world, our helplessness and inability to effect change."
I agree. I just feel that everything I read in journals (or try to stomach in novels, which really is page one) is based on appealing to emotions, and by that I mean the author aims to create emotions based on using familiar scenes used in other works (i.e. husband and wife getting a divorce, woman doesn't want her baby, person from another country struggles with identity, etc), and this is done in a familiar way/method. The story changes slightly from author to author but is really not that different.
And there is a major politicization of literature that I find kind of icky, mostly because I just don't think that's what literature is there for; it's not fodder for a particular "side." It should transcend those things and deal with the meaning of life, the complexity of the human mind, what makes us who we are and how society affects us (and that's where "ethnic fiction" could really be great)
From Anis: "To win the game by making a large statement, and thus causing discomfort within one’s established social zone, is not worth winning the game at all" and "Liberal guilt disallows critical appraisal of the many forms of victim fiction produced today. American grown South Asian writers can today do no wrong, just as East Asians were the hottest thing a few years ago."
"Open up any current leading journal, and the typical story starts off with these phrasal bits: 'My mother…my father…I was in the sixth grade…my friend Ellie…in the backseat of my parents’ car…' There is no plot, no bildungsroman (pointless little epiphanies don’t count), no larger purpose to the minor childhood incident being recounted (this easily turns into the memoir form)."
"Romanticism, existentialism, stoicism, nihilism, all are forbidden modes of perception; only a constricted bourgeois realism, steeped in paralysis and grief, is accepted."
I have to disagree. The goal of literature is not, I believe, to concoct a situation that has never before been put to page. There are no new stories in the world. The human drama remains the same. It is the telling of the tale that makes it good or not. And I think there is good fiction being written today.
Kudos to you for your bold statements. You have provoked a very interesting conversation.
But I do not see eye-to-eye with Anis Shivani. First of all, I do not agree that every brilliant writer must necessarily break with convention, which I see as his basic premise: "Rebel against the expectations of the ruling literary establishment. Otherwise your art is impure." An artist who breaks with convention in a powerful way and manages to challenge and change the literary landscape is necessarily brilliant, and is more likely to be remembered for generations to come than someone who writes in accordance with the prevailing "rules" of the time, but I don't think that all writing that is not technically revolutionary is boring or timid or brown-nosing. This is just a personal belief, but I hold that artists can speak truthfully -- and originally -- within the limits of their respective conventions.
Every generation has its conventions and its styles and its palette of concerns; I guess I just don't see contemporary convention as being particularly noxious to the soul of art, nor I see the palette of concerns as narrow, predictable and prescribed. At any rate I certainly do not agree with Shivani's hailing of "classical authors" as the true "masters," as if everything that has been written in the past thirty or forty years or so is repetitive drivel, as if during decades and centuries of the distant past all the greatest artists had thrived and become known. He blames today's world of editing and publishing and writing programs for mediocre fiction because he's familiar -- or thinks he's familiar -- with the ins and outs of this particular flawed system, but social and political realities have always worked to drown out brilliant writers and artists. Case in point: the canon he champions, as we all know, is comprised mostly of white American and European male authors. All of these writers are brilliant, yes, but that is because time distills the long list of publications from every period of history down to its hallmarks. If you picked up a literary quarterly published in Manchester in the winter of 1815, who knows what you would find?
I do not perceive a literary desert around me. Maybe I am just young, optimistic and naive, and in forty years, or even in ten years, I will see the disaster Shivani sees. Now, though, I love a lot of what I read. I love a lot of the very authors on Shivani's hit list (Foer, Cunningham, etc). I find nothing wrong with stories that begin "My mother" or "My father," if they end up being good honest stories. However, I am not a critic by nature. In fact I very much dislike critics by nature, because it is a lot easier to talk about what great art should be than to make it yourself.
I agree with ABC. As a writer, we have to focus on things that illicit some kind of emotional response. And there's truly no such thing as a completely new story. The trick is how do we tell that same old story in a way that resonates and re-invents it.
In other news:
Who's taking bets?
Do you think we'll get any notifications this week?
RE: "...everything I read in journals...is based on appealing to emotions, and by that I mean the author aims to create emotions based on using familiar scenes used in other works (i.e. husband and wife getting a divorce, woman doesn't want her baby, person from another country struggles with identity, etc.)"
Am I the only one who thinks Shivani is being outrageously reductive, here? One can undermine just about any practice, even entire industries, by being grossly reductive. It's never a very thoughtful position, however. It sure can ruffle some feathers though.
I agree with you. Not sure who said it, but aren't there only two stories? The visitor and the journey? And I'm pretty sure "there's nothing new under the sun" is Biblical (i.e., real old).
In other news... Among many unhealthy habits I've developed in the interim, I've been obsessively looking at the driftless house lists of first notifications from 2010. To remedy, I simply made a list (schools to which I applied):
2010 first notices (fiction)
Indiana: February 3rd Syracuse: February 6th Illinois: February 9th Vanderbilt: February 10th Cornell: February 12th Minnesota: February 18th Iowa: February 19th Michigan: February 19th Purdue: February 24th Michener: March 3rd Houston: March 12th
Per the University of Wyoming web site, UW received a record 350 applications this year (which would be almost twice as many as 2010) and "the director anticipates making selection decisions by the end of February."
Hey Clever Screen Name, Did you get an email confirmation or anything from Wyoming? Due to some computer issues, I wasn't able to apply till yesterday and I'm a little paranoid applying so late in the game.
You'll likely receive two confirmations, but I wouldn't be paranoid if you haven't received either yet. There's one from the CW program, but that's not an automated email, it's actually from an administrative assistant who's probably swamped by applications and hasn't had a chance to respond to everybody yet. The other confirmation came directly from UW Admissions and that was the standard automated acknowledgment of application. For some reason, it takes a couple of days for the university to download you app so I didn't get that confirmation until a few days after I applied. My guess is that you're fine and they're just a little backed up.
I received a same day automated message from Wyoming (for the online app). I also received a message from an MFA administrator telling me that they received everything and were just waiting on an undergrad transcript. They seem pretty cool assuming you get the important stuff in on time.
Thanks for keeping the discussion going on the Shivani front in a productive way.
I think, kaybay, you said that you were a philosophy major? I find that fascinating and I'm totally excited for you, in that I imagine you have a great library of tools/thinking/ available to you that perhaps others of us don't have. I think it gives you a lot of options for storytelling. Somehow, I think that's involved in this discussion but I'm not exactly sure how.
I have to respectfully disagree with you and Shivani's point, though, which I've paraphrased in my head as "storytellers no longer take on big issues". I'm indebted to Almond Punch and blob for speaking well on it already-- particularly blob who used the word that has been running around in my head all day "emotional."
I think it's true that authors today don't necessarily take on big issues (nihilism, etc, mentioned in your post)- I think some do, and I tend to read them, but I don't have any reason to doubt that you find many stories boring or "the same old". I don't think, however, that a story with the words "my father", "my mother", etc, is by definition not taking on large issues.
One can discuss large issues and still have a mother, no? It strikes me that speaking about mothers, fathers, etc, allows us to talk about large issues in a way that also allows an emotional connections to the reader, as we all have mothers and fathers. Far from being second-rate fiction, I would think that's a pretty good strategy.
First of all, Courtney, I hope we go to the same program because you're awesome, chica :D
Second of all, I really didn't mean to rile anyone up about this. Who'd a thought literature could get people so irritated. It's a discussion about literature. On a creative writing blog. What else do we discuss until notifications start pouring in? Liquor and beer?
Anyway.
I agree with all that most everything has been done before. Hell, my first story is domestic realism and I'm certainly not claiming it's a unique plot or subject matter. I agree with you also that it's not what you write about but how you write it and how unique the story-telling is the second (or millionth) time around. BUT, BUT, BUT! there is a familiarity in most of what I read in terms of style, structure, and definitely subject matter. And I would be a little more comfortable with this if journals/presses were willing to take risks and publish stuff that bucks this familiarity. It just doesn't happen. People are looking for familiarity precisely because they don't want to gamble and risk a PR nightmare. They want consistency and sedation.
I had a discussion with a friend of mine about this. She gets irritated by all the writer "types," people who just think it's cool to be a "writer" (a writer! *said a la Tobias Funke*) and live the "life." They are more interested in doing what they need to do to procure grants, teaching positions, and notoriety. That means that they write to please the powers that be in order to be allowed into the elite social circle that all the lesser "types" also want to be a part of. I think that's what Anis is saying too. I obviously don't think that's everybody in writing or everyone pursuing the MFA (please, please don't think either that I mean all of you; I've swapped samples here with some fantastic writers), but I think it's definitely out there in a big way. It's like politics, Hollywood, the banking industry. It's just people with power and money who can make all the peons envious and/or impressed. Story of life, my friends...
BPM - I wish philosophy made me a better writer! I don't know, though, I think sometimes it just means I blow hot air :P
Good points, by the way, to all. You too, BPM. I do agree with you that the emotional connection between writer and subject is of utmost importance and if the need to write comes from issues within the family or with identity, etc... then that should be dealt with. That's what writing is about. I guess it's about intention?
I guess so much of what side of this debate you fall might be influenced by what kind of irking experiences you've had with 'writers.'
For me, I automatically get a bit suspicious of anyone who claims to be super 'experimental' or 'original' only because I've encountered so many writers like that who's reaction to everything is 'well, you just didn't get it' or 'I'm not writing for the reader.' And while no one should write for the reader, ignoring that they exist is stupid. Also stupid is excusing just plain bad writing, no grammar, etc as being 'experimental.' Yes, people can be experimental and great, yes people can bend all sorts of rules. But to bend the rules, you have to understand them first.
If one more person cites e.e. cummings in defense of their miserable poetic punctuation, I'm going to scream. Cummings didn't have bad grammar, he just made his own grammar rules and then stuck with them. So the reader wasn't left completely confused, but rather forced to think outside their usual confines.
Anyway, the point of this rant is, when someone says 'be different, be original, don't be part of the system.' I worry that they'll encourage people to use 'i'm not writing for you, or YOU just don't get it' as an excuse. That excuse is fine if you're just writing for yourself in your journal. But if you're trying to publish or workshop, then well, you're not writing for yourself.
Blob - yep, those people irk me too :D It's a fine line, I think, between experimenting with plot, structure, language, subject matter, etc, and douchebaggery (or lunacy? Not sure). But when it's done right, it's pretty dern awesome... I guess the same can be said about more "traditional" writing too. It all depends :)
@ kaybay, BPM, blob, and everyone involved in these awesome discussions –
I’ve been reading along and I hope you all don’t mind my jumping in here at the end (or in the middle, who knows yet). I wanted to go back to what kaybay said a few comments ago about journals/presses sticking to the familiar. I don’t read a lot of journals (I have a complicated relationship with short stories as a form), so I can’t speak to what they’re publishing consistently, but I recently picked up the three books in a Best American Fantasy series (edited by Matthew Cheney) which was sadly discontinued. They used a very broad definition of fantasy—we’re talking the kind of editors that like to play around with categories—and included stories that were published in The New Yorker, Mississippi Review, Georgia Review, Oxford American, One Story, Zoetrope, as well as places you might expect when you hear ‘fantasy,’ like Strange Horizons. I’d be hard-pressed to explain what makes some of them fantasy, other than a feeling of the uncanny or an oddness that emanates from them, but neither are they the kinds of stories that I feel like I find when I try and pick up individual issues of literary journals (though a couple of my favorites do, in fact, include the words “my father” within the first two paragraphs).
I don’t know what my point is—I guess, maybe that unusual, risky stuff is out there? I sometimes feel like the problem I face as a reader is not ‘why isn’t anyone publishing anything interesting’ but ‘how do I find what is interesting to me among the piles of words that are published every year.’ I think that’s also why I tend to be several years behind in reading new stuff—it takes that long for me to find it.
As a writer I try really hard not to think about what is and isn’t being published because it gives me performance anxiety. ;-)
Blob's comment reminded me of Michael Cunningham's article in the NY Times here. It's not an article about Who Do You Write For, in specific, but he touches on it and I think his insights are useful. The link to the full article is below. The interesting paragraphs, for our purposes, are copied here:
Cunningham, Michael. Found In Translation, New York Times, October 2, 2010.
"I remind them, as well, that no one wants to read their stories. There are a lot of other stories out there, and by now, in the 21st century, there’s been such an accumulation of literature that few of us will live long enough to read all the great stories and novels, never mind the pretty good ones. Not to mention the fact that we, as readers, are busy.
We have large and difficult lives. We have, variously, jobs to do, spouses and children to attend to, errands to run, friends to see; we need to keep up with current events; we have gophers in our gardens; we are taking extension courses in French or wine tasting or art appreciation; we are looking for evidence that our lovers are cheating on us; we are wondering why in the world we agreed to have 40 people over on Saturday night; we are worried about money and global warming; we are TiVo-ing five or six of our favorite TV shows.
What the writer is saying, essentially, is this: Make room in all that for this. Stop what you’re doing and read this. It had better be apparent, from the opening line, that we’re offering readers something worth their while.
I should admit that when I was as young as my students are now, I too thought of myself as writing either for myself, for some ghostly ideal reader, or, at my most grandiose moments, for future generations. My work suffered as a result."
@BPM I'm starting my second GWW class tonight. I enjoyed my first workshop, but because there is no competition for admission, you do get a varied group, particularly in the level 1 fiction class. But I would say it was a success. 1) My instructor ended up providing a letter of rec for my apps and 2) one of the stories I workshopped in that class was accepted for publication recently.
Also, I work full time and there are 1M reasons NOT to write in the evenings when I get home from the office. So the GWW classes keep a deadline over my head, and motivation to write every day.
Thanks for posting the link to that article! I had a good laugh over this part:
"Although the words “Call me Ishmael” have force and confidence, force and confidence alone aren’t enough. “Idiot, read this” has force and confidence too, but is less likely to produce the desired effect."
If anyone is interested in trading samples, I've finally busted up the nerve to show mine!
jami.nakamura.lin@gmail.com
I'm in nonfiction, but am interested in reading anything! I have to do something for the three weeks until I can start crossing my fingers for acceptances...
Also, another plug for the related Facebook group, which is quite active and updates every few minutes.
If anyone is interested in sharing their fiction sample, I'm interested to see what people are writing about. Since the samples have been sent out, I won't make any comments - other than to tell you it's better than mine!
Just got an e-mail from Univ. Colorado saying the committees began meeting on Monday (17th) and will make decisions in the first week of February. Which is two-ish weeks from now. Yikes.
Your assumption seems likely, since two weeks is not a lot of time to read submissions and then make decisions...but I have no idea. But man, their projected notification date(s) is two weeks earlier than I wrote down in my spreadsheet file (aka panic list). Which gives me a bit of anxiety, which is odd, since I still have presumably two weeks before I need to be feeling anxiety. Gah. So it begins.
443 comments:
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Sigh. Sounds like a drag. I can't personally relate, but I know enough stories similar to yours to be sufficiently jaded with the system.
I have a friend who was born in the US, whose parents are professors in the US, who has been entirely educated in the US schooling system...but at some point in her high school career she checked that at home she speaks Spanish....So even though she was top of her class and was enrolled in a number of honors and advanced classes, she was forced to take a test to place out of a mandatory ESL class as a senior in order to graduate.
Seriously, USA? Come on.
I'm starting to lose my mind. I've been re-reading Jan/Feb mailbags from last year (somewhat obsessively) and looking at the driftless house blog and trying to figure out when and who will notify.
Looks like alabama poetry has been the earliest one, which makes me VERY nervous since that's one of my schools.
What are other people doing to keep themselves from chewing their arms off? Anyone picking up new habits?
For those who applied to Indiana U, could anyone hook me up with the link for where to check application status?
Thanks!
@x,
That really sucks. I'm applying to UIUC as an international applicant too, and they sent me an email requiring all kinds of ToEFL things, but then they realised that I'm from the UK & withdrew the requirement. (of course, they're still requiring a certification of finances that I can't afford unless I win the lottery sometime soon, so I almost-certainly won't be able to attend.)
It is ridiculous & ignorant that native English speakers are treated like this, although I guess there's nothing you can do about it. Good luck with your applications, though!
x and l (is it "l" or "I"?)
I don't know if it counts against me, but I just wrote their department assistant, Heather Steele, and asked her.
hemsteel@indiana.edu
She said all was good and ended her email reply with a ;). I guess that means my email didn't piss her off too much?
I am a Syracuse hopeful and just read this interview with George Saunders from the New Yorker Book Bench:
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2010/12/george-saunderss-wild-ride.html
Would love to be in his workshop.
Does anyone know how UT-Austin's second-genre system works in terms of admissions?
For example, do they have a certain number of spots per second genre? or is it ignored all together?
Just curious. I've been thinking about their format/system recently. I sort of wish there were other schools that offered a second genre option.
@ blob:
Good question.
I would assume that primary genre is really all that matters in terms of admission, and if one is accepted into their primary genre, they are automatically accepted in to their second.
My assumption is that either a) it works itself off or that b), they admit so few students that "filling up" is not so much an issue, you know?
In general I've been a bit curious about how the secondary genre works...even though it's the main reason I applied to Michener.
Anyone else have any ideas?
@ Courtney
I too have wondered how much the sub- or second genre enters into your degree requirements.
I'd imagine that rather than just be "encouraged" to explore another genre, it's required...like some percentage of your time there must be spent on coursework in the sub-genre.
What I understand about admission though is that they consider your primary genre pretty much on its own since you aren't supposed to submit a sample of work in your sub-genre. That said, it makes little sense to me that applicants are made to declare a sub-genre at all. I said I'd like to do 1) fiction and 2) screenwriting and sent in two short stories. But for all they know, I've never even watched a motion picture in my entire life.
Perhaps it plays into balancing the incoming cohort. For instance, maybe they don't want all incoming fiction people to have chosen poetry as a sub-genre, as it would overload the poetry classes and under-load the screenwriting classes??
Here's an old article that was posted in last year's mailbag that I found pretty interesting:
http://www.latimes.com/features/books/newsletter/la-ca-endurability7-2010feb07,0,5302903.story
Thoughts?
@julienotjulia
Some of the English department admin assistants are so nice. I love them.
@ X,
That sucks about UCIC. I'm an international too (also on here as c.k.c. from The Bahamas; for some reason i couldn't log under that username) and, english is also my mother tongue.
None of the schools that i have applied to required that i take TOEFL, or required that TOEFl be taken so that i could qualifiy for TAship. However, i have found that solely as an international i do not always qualify for TAship at some schools. That is the case with UC Irvine, and, i think, UCSD as well. So other internationals be aware of this and check with your schools to find out if being an international will affect your possibility of TAship. If i'm wrong about UC Irvine or UCSD anyone out there who has more info, feel free to correct me?
@Blob
I've seen the article. I don't think most M.F.A. applicants harbor delusions of instant fame and fortune, though; just because the publishing industry is getting tougher to penetrate doesn't mean that all young people pursuing M.F.A.s or creative writing generally are starry-eyed and naive in the way the author suggests.
"The 5,000 students graduating each year from creative writing programs (not to mention the thousands more who attend literary festivals and conferences) do not include insecurity, rejection and disappointment in their plans."
A statement like that is just downright ridiculous. What with acceptance rates around 1-4% at the top schools, insecurity, rejection and disappointment feature in most M.F.A. applicants' experiences already; I sense profound levels of fear, doubt and self-depreciation among young and emerging writers and artists.
"The emphasis is on publishing, not on creating. On being a writer, not on writing itself."
Whose emphasis? MFA candidates / young writers? How can she be so sure of that? Based on the expressions on students' "eager faces" on the first day of class? This doesn't seem fair or accurate. I know of few, if any, young literary writers who have expressed an intention of striking rich in the publishing world, and I know many many people who simply have a pure, honest passion for their art, people who love to pour energy every day into the creative act.
"At the risk of sounding like I'm writing from my rocking chair...."
She very much does sound like she's writing from a rocking chair, and most of her advice isn't original or useful. We are aware of the dismal publishing landscape -- we've heard these lectures and dire warnings many times. When I write I write for free. It is a sacrifice. We all know it is a sacrifice and a risk every hour we write. Artists need to be encouraged and strengthened, not judged or assumed foolish for their willingness -- and courage -- to devote themselves to art.
Is anyone attending the AWP conference in February? I'm interested in going, especially since DC is an easy drive for me and I have people I can stay with for free there. The schedule looks really interesting and it seems a good way to meet people in that world, but I have to admit to being reluctant to go not knowing anyone there.
@Almond Punch - Well said!
So, what's the process for hearing responses? Which schools do interviews? I guess schools usually make their decisions in March or April?
@Victoria
Go to driftless-house.blogspot.com .
Schools' past response dates are posted there.
The site will be updating this year as well, I think, every time someone hears news of acceptance.
@Blake: Dude, thanks so much for linking to that fantastic George Saunders interview! If I loved his writing any more, I'd just go ahead and take out a restraining order against me on his behalf. What a friggin' marvel of modern literature.
@inkli_11: thanks--I'm off the ledge now!
Great Saunders interview. Thanks for posting.
Okay, I STILL don't see my huge comment, so in case it didn't turn up, I wanted to say THANK YOU again to The Pensive Monkey, X and G, who made deciding not to apply to Mills much easier. Now I'm thinking of adding the University of Oregon to my list, although MOST likely I'll be joining The Pensive Monkey in applying only to 7 schools. Yikes.
@Gena: About the status updates -- this is a little late (again, it was in the earlier post, so it could be repetitive) but I've had the same troubles with some schools. WashU actually sent me an email saying my file is complete, but they've not updated it on the website. UWash too updated exactly nothing on the website, even though their deadline for international applicants was, in fact, November 1. They had a disclaimer saying one should give them a little while to update, so I only checked early in December, and was told some material was missing but might be "upstairs in the English Grad Office". So I think some schools might also be having a bit of an organisational crisis in this respect. I'd say write to them, but don't panic.
Which is kind of hard to do, though. I checked the status of my application for Michener today - because of Urbanist's question (and yeah, same status for me too) - and it transpires that my undergrad transcripts have not been received, though they were sent around the last week of November. >>; The site says to hold your horses for about three weeks around the deadline, so I will, for another four days, but then I'll write to them. >_< And keep thinking don't panic, don't panic, don't panic...
@X: I relate. My schooling (right from Kindergarten through postgrad uni stuff) has always been in English. I still had to sit through the TOEFL because of the weird requirement. I mean it's an MFA in Creative WRITING. In English. Doesn't that presume that the applicants would be somewhat versed with the language? Ah well. ._.
I'm totally surprised Kaybay isn't on here yelling about Auburn.
PS-- In my last post, "imput" should be "input". Le sigh.
@x,
I have not taken TOEFL. Like you and Akatsuki, all of my schooling has have been in english, in english speaking countries. Moreover, though i'm an international student, The Bahamas is also an English speaking country so,once I communicated that fact clearly to the uni's that i applied to there have been no problems. Still, i will check with UCSD to find out if i am required to take TOEFL in order to qualify for TAship. I'll get back to you on what i'm told.
@ Almond Punch
RE: your first 'graph
Agreed. Applicants would have to be clinically delusional to think the MFA is a ticket to notoriety. Every time I visit Barnes & Noble or Borders, or trawl some of the online 'zines, I'm reminded HOW MANY great writers there are out there. Then there's the number of published writers there are out there. ;) I'm just reminded how the vast majority will never be invited to read at the 92nd Street Y or interview with M. Silverblatt on Bookworm.
@Akatsuki,
Glad to help. Good luck with your apps!
I think asked this already once, but I'm going to try it again:
Does anyone know/remember from old threads if UMass conducts TA interviews before or after extended acceptance offers?
@ Blob
From what I saw on Driftless House acceptances last year it's AFTER. You get the call and they ask you to schedule the interview.
@julie
Thanks, that helps.
For you Gena -
WAAAAAAAAR EAGLE! HEY!
:P
I think I got two hours of sleep last night. AND my favorite player (Michael Dyer) was the star! I'm not a huge Cam fan. But I just want to squeeze Dyer's adorable fat cheeks. Love that kid!
@kaybay
I made a crazy notification calender like you did, because I clearly enjoy self torture. The end of February is looking intense. I wonder if people at work will think I've lost my mind.
Also does anyone know when we should expect a new driftless blog for notifications? Or if they're even using it again?
I wonder what will be the best place to find out when people are hearing? Here, driftless, speakeasy, grad cafe? Anything else?
Blob - I know. I'm sure yours is like mine where there are two or more weeks in which two or more schools will likely be notifying (wow, sorry for the wordy sentence). That's double nerve-wracking! I wish I could just leave and let the chips fall, but I can't. I'm always thinking about it :)
And now I'm snowed in... nothing else much to do but read samples (kaybay, did you send me yours?!) and think about MFA season beginning. (And ending. Warmth, please).
@gena
no snow here yet, but NYC has declared a 'snow emergency' so yeah...
Gena - I thought I did! I'll double check and send it your way if I didn't. I'm still about half-way through yours. So far, pretty cool. Awesomely unique.
No Roll Tide from you?? :P
I kid, I kid.
@UMass-Amherst folks,
Is your online app status reflecting Writing Sample yet? Mine lists Personal Statement twice, but nothing about WS. I'm thinking maybe that item doesn't get reflected on the website because it was sent to the MFA program and not to the Grad Admissions Office, but I wanted to see if anyone else could corroborate that.
@I
UMass status check doesn't seem to be very up to date. Mine says all sorts of stuff is missing, but I got an email from admissions saying my application was complete. Those emails seem to be going out in batches. Some got their emails several weeks before I got mine.
anyone else having a recommendation disaster?
One of my UT recommendations hasn't been submitted. It was due Dec. 15th, so at this point I'm in deep trouble. I can't get a hold of my recommender either. I don't know if the other ones he did were submitted or not-- they were all hard copy. But this one is stressing me out. It says his recommendation is 'saved, not submitted' so he probably thinks he did it. But I've emailed to explain otherwise and no word. Already emailed him twice about it.
Late is one thing. But I really, really, really don't want this application thrown out as incomplete.
Blob--
I think Michener is one of the few places that has a secret but not-so-secret: "If you get your sample here, we'll read it." LoRs are low on the scale of import.
Higher on the scale of import... noncommittal "winter emergencies".
PS... Haha, thanks kaybay. "Original", "Unique"... the "EGADS, WHAT IS THAT THING?" of the writing world. ;). jk jk.
policy. A secret, not so secret policy.
@Gena
I don't know if that's true or not, but I'm relieved to hear it just the same. I hope that's true and I hope my recommender gets his letter to them this week. Sigh.
Warning: RANT BELOW
Gagh! Anyone else noticing that transcripts are not where they should be? My u-grad school cashed my check but no one seems to have received my transcript! (Fume, fume)
Wisconsin emailed me to say "you have items missing. This is your last warning." Last warning? Huh, wah? Turns out it's that transcript and other schools are missing the same one.
And, U. South Carolina saying one of my profs. didn't submit his rec. when I have a confirmation email from the same school saying he did!
Now I wonder, do I annoy 13 schools to see if they have everything? Or, just wait to see who contacts me?
Ugh x 10.
ATTN: KAUSHIK
I want to talk to you regarding plans for the Jaipur Lit Fest. Drop me a mail. My id is active on my profile.
@Blob: Me too. My referee evidently found her letter for me in her house a while back. >>; It has been mailed, and thankfully she told me so I could tell the concerned authorities. But it was quite a hooooly-crap moment >>;
so i reported this to the fb group yesterday, butttt...
i got an email from ohio state yesterday saying that my application was incomplete because they hadn't got a letter from one of my recommenders. i fixed the problem right away [or, uh, he called, which i assumed fixed the problem, i'm waiting on a reply from the person who emailed me] but i was kind of nervous because the email said that my application wouldn't be submitted to the mfa committee until they got that letter! i wonder if they've started reading yet? they couldn't possibly read all those samples [or even, you know, the 5 pages or whatever that mfa committees make their prelim yes/no/maybe piles from] in the ~2 weeks til they notify, could they?
idk. it's made me terribly nervous. can it be decision time yet?
@Blob,
Late to the party, but I just wanted to say that I had almost the exact same issue (one of my recommenders couldn't upload the Texas rec because of a broken link) and it didn't get sorted till yesterday, so you're def. not alone! However, I think it should be fine so long as the letter gets there eventually? And if they're interested in you, they should try to chase the letter up, rather than just throwing out the app.
(plus, they probably didn't start reading samples properly till last week, and I doubt they've got around to checking LORs yet, so it won't seem as late to them as it does to you!)
ugh, did people send 'unofficial' gre scores to FSU? Turns out you needed to send photocopies of your GRE statement in with your application packet, even though it doesn't say so anywhere on the site, and they are no longer accepting them. So my application is officially defunct. FML
@Blob,
Thanks! I'd somehow forgotten that I did get that email from UMass on 12/23. *Making note on spreadsheet*
Blob, sorry about FSU. That sucks.
@Blob: Did you request to have your official GRE scores sent to FSU? If you did, they shouldn't DQ you for not uploading unofficial scores, too.
@Remy
I did, but unfortunately after talking with the department things don't sound/look good for me. :(
Maybe she misunderstood me or I misunderstood her, there's always a small glimmer of hope. But when they start notifying, I'm not expecting anything. Sigh. Glad I applied to 14 and 4 schools.
@Blob: Well I think that's silly that they'd eliminate you for not submitting unofficial scores when they have your official ones. But what do I know? Anyway, don't beat yourself up about it. When you're applying to all these schools, it's almost impossible not to have a mixup/screwup along the way. (Last night I realized Johns Hopkins requires recommendation forms with their LORs, so I'm probably going to have my application DQ'd when I submit it this week.) The whole process is maddening.
@remy
Thanks. yeah, it's a hard process. But you're right, no point in crying over spilled milk.
Getting very anxious for full fledged notification season (which is obviously right around the corner). I just want to know one way or the other!
In other news, the very, very nice lady who answers the phone at UT's Michener center told me that LORs aren't looked at until the 3rd round. The first round is just reading samples. She didn't specify what the 2nd round is, but I assume a closer read of samples and maybe SOPs too? Either way, I thought it was interesting to get a little more insight as to how their admissions process works.
@ Blob
Unless I misunderstood, FSU wanted you to upload copies of your GRE report. Which is what I did. BUT! My scan was so large the website wouldn't accept it, which led to my trying to resize, cursing, resizing, cursing, and on and on. I eventually uploaded something so tiny that I doubt anyone could actually read it. So, even though I did submit mine, they're still kinda worthless. I hope they still accept your app; it would be silly to dismiss it for something so trivial.
All is not lost! Thank you to the person who suggested the maiden name / married name dilemma with transcripts. UW-Madison had my maiden name transcripts in the 'no application' box! Woot! that was a close call.
@ Jessica
No problemo! It happened to me with with a few of the apps. I guess that's why a lot of people finish schooling first before getting married. Oh well! :)
Wanted to let everyone know that I got an email from South Carolina saying that they received about 100 apps and expect to notify by early February. Good luck to all those who applied :)
@ kaybay Thanks for the update! I totally expected them to get more than 100 applications, weird. Good to know, nonetheless.
I'll echo that thanks to Kaybay!
@Marti
You're totally right that South Carolina's 100 apps doesn't feel like a lot, but considering that the last reported number for them (from Seth's data) was 38, that's pretty impressive growth. They definitely seem to be on the up and up.
Here's a new one: I sent my Florida app off USPS Priority, with delivery confirmation. It should have gotten there Monday, but it didn't--maybe, who knows? Anyhow, USPS cannot, for some reason, verify that it was delivered. Which begs the question: what exactly are you getting when you pay for delivery confirmation? Anyhow, much to my surprise, I got the long-suffering and heretofore notional Carla Blount on the phone, but she says they have a pile of 600 envelopes in the office, so obviously she can't help me. Postmark deadline: 1/14. Florida, for some reason, wanted the transcripts mailed with the writing sample. No way I can get those together again in time.
I'm going to send another package off with my writing sample, printouts of unofficial transcripts, and a pathetic note. Even if the other package never gets there, maybe they'll have pity and read what I sent.
600 apps in the office at Florida? You serious? Last year they got 390.
AP,
That may well be -- is likely -- the total for the entire English Department (including traditional M.A. and Ph.D. applicants). Many programs report their figures by Department, not program. So: Department of English, not MFA program. And some administrative staff may not appreciate (or want to acknowledge) the difference, which leaves them claiming a figure that means one thing actually means another. It's one of the difficulties of data collection re: MFA programs. I don't at all believe that UF MFA applications increased by more than 50% this year, as that number would suggest. Not even UCSD saw that kind of increase, and it was a revelation this year (partly as a new, fully-funded program starting out from a low[er] number of apps). If anything, we'd expect a modest increase in apps, and possibly a plateauing.
Best,
S.
I wonder if some of the southern schools will be slightly delayed from their usual notification dates this year because of the snow they got recently. I don't know how bad it is everywhere but I know Atlanta and the schools there are going on their fourth snow day! And I know parts of Tennessee are iced up as well.
Fun fact: yesterday, Florida was the only state in the U.S. with no snow!
@Urbanist
I had the same problem. Delivery confirmation on my packet shows it made it to Gainesville, but doesn't say whether it was delivered to UF or not. I figured (and hoped) it was a matter of someone forgetting to scan something when they dropped it off with everyone else's, and it is actually there safely. I've heard of this happening, albeit more rarely. But if it made it to Gainesville, that's far enough for me.
It does make you wonder, though, what exactly we're paying for when we get delivery confirmation...
@urbanist & Jonathan
To be fair there's no way for the post office to track that an item was delivered anywhere but post office of the designated city without a signature. There is an option to get a signature which confirms delivery at location. But otherwise, there's literally no way to track it. It would be entirely impractical and inefficient to have mailmen log in that they put something in a specific mailbox or not.
Plus if something has a postmark deadline even if it arrives late or delayed, it doesn't matter. You're postmarked!
@blob: I would settle for confirmation that it got to Gainesville. All they will confirm is that it was accepted at MY post office. Which, duh, I was there!
(Though I do think that it's fair to interpret "delivery confirmation to mean that you can expect confirmation of delivery)
@Blob
RE: USPS Tracking, actually USPS does have a tracking mechanism that tracks whether an item was delivered (it involves bar codes that are, ideally, scanned at every step), but you have to pay for it, and you have to send the package Priority to get it.
@Jonathan
I had a package, with tracking, get delivered and it never showed up in USPS' online status-check thingy. So it definitely does happen that mailmen fail to scan a package when delivering.
I was curious about all this myself, so I checked the USPS website. There is a way to send it called Signature Confirmation which (naturally) requires a signature at delivery. But with plain old Delivery Confirmation, they just attach a barcode to it and the package is scanned at each stop along the way. And like Raine said, that should include the actual, final delivery. I sent four of my packets through Delivery Confirmation (wish I'd sent them all that way) and the USPS confirmed that three out of four were delivered to their destinations at such and such times. Only Florida remains... But like I said, I'm hoping that just means the mailman forgot to scan it for the final delivery.
another note about florida, it's possible also that it's held up. I don't know what route it would go through but a lot of the south is shut down. Atlanta, for example, which is a big post and air hub, has been closed for 4 days. Literally, the city has been closed. I imagine there are similar issues in other parts of the south. So maybe it hasn't gotten to where it really needs to go yet...
but you should be fine since you're postmarked and all.
Good point, Seth. RE:multiple programs in one department. I neglected to consider that entirely. I guess that's how easy it is for baseless statistics to start flying!
Some random ADDish comments:
Just got a very nice message from Grant Jolliff @ UNCG about a missing item. It heartens me to no end to know someone is actually going through all these application materials and letting me know if anything is amiss!
RE: the Gainesville mail issue...I know this is not a positive bit of info, but I used to live there and the post is notoriously baaaad. I lived in the same house for two years and they lost stuff all the time. On the plus side to those of you who applied...it's a fun town to live in!
@julienotjulia thanks again!
I was talking to my brother on the phone last night. He's been surprisingly attentive and interested in the process. We had an interesting conversation about the differences in the admissions process for fiction applicants versus poetry applicants.
He asked about how many people had 'no business' applying, something I didn't have an answer to, obviously. But I did suggest that although there were more fiction applicants there were probably also more fiction applicants who were unqualified/would automatically end up in the 'no' pile. To me, it seems like people who stick around with poetry might be less likely to be under-developed writers because it's a less-accessible genre. What do you all think?
The other thing that came up that got me thinking was whether it was easier to determine 'good fiction' than 'good poetry.' My brother asked if I thought poetry was a bit more subjective than fiction. I answered yes, only because it seems like there is a lot more stylistic range and something that seems like gibberish to one reader might be a brilliant sound poem to another. Whereas with prose, I'm inclined to think there are more general 'rules' that make something good. But maybe I'm wrong.
Anyway, the conversation got me thinking about the differences in perception/reading of the two genres and I wanted to share and see what others thought.
@Blob
Good points. "Good" fiction, I think, is (very broadly) about creating suspense. And not suspense as in the genre -- rather the writer is charged with urging readers to continue turning page after page, to keep their eyes moving hungrily over the prose without relying on a gimmick.
Poetry (unless epic) doesn't seem to require the suspense.
Am I off base here?
I want to say, too, that I have A LOT to learn about poetry. I find it a bit intimidating. :)
@julienotjuliet
I suppose it's true that poetry doesn't need to create suspense necessarily, but it does need it evoke emotion of some kind or another.
But, having said that, I do think prose has some structure-- for example, a plot is usually expected as is some structure of a 'beginning-middle-end.' characters should be developed to a certain extent, etc.
where as I feel poetry can become more like visual art where splattering paint can either be brilliant (pollack) or amateur, depending on how it's executed, or how it's viewed. Granted, I think a lot of poets, myself included, don't write that kind of poetry. My aim is always to make my poetry accessible. But I do think there's always more room for interpretation and therefore more room for disagreement about the quality.
Question:
Would anyone recommend dropping off apps in person? I am applying to 3 programs very nearby and it'd be easy for me to drop them off during the week. Have any of you done this or do you think it'd be frowned upon? I just worry about things getting lost in the mail!
Thanks!
One more question...
When you request transcripts from your undergrad institution, how long does it take for them to send them? I am sure it varies, but does anyone have a ballpark figure?
Thanks!
It seems that some universities (Rutgers, as far as I know) allow applicants to send photocopies or scanned files of their GRE or TOEFL scores, rather than have them pay +-$20 just for an official notification. Which means a good idea to check if each university specifically asks for the scores to be sent directly from ETS.
It seems that some universities (Rutgers, as far as I know) allow applicants to send photocopies or scanned files of their GRE or TOEFL scores, rather than have them pay +-$20 just for an official notification. Which means a good idea to check if each university specifically asks for the scores to be sent directly from ETS.
ak
Looks like you're in NYC. Def drop them off. Don't pay for/worry about mail if you don't have to!
As for transcripts...at my ug school, you can pay $20.00 or something to have it rushed, which means like 2 biz day turnaround. You might be able to call your UG registrar's office and personally arrange to pay for fed ex overnight if you're in a bind.
@X: There you go then. Hehehe, that just made me giggle. But I was actually wondering a while back how authentic some of the parts of people's applications are. I don't know about the US, but in India it quite often happens that a person writes out their own reference statements. Which was kind of ... weird to me, when someone asked me, halfway through the process, if I was done writing my own references. xD But really, are there parts that could be fake and does that really work? >_<
@AK: I don't know about US schools (but wow, 2 days? I'm envious!) but one of mine took 15 days to process the request, and someone had to stand in line to submit the form and then stand in line to get said transcripts and we had to send them on our own. The other one was better and sent it as well, but there was no direct process of applying - you had to wait, and there were loads of lines involved. I'm actually curious about how it works in the States too.
Akatsuki: One of my recommenders asked me to write a letter for myself that could tinker with and sign. It was an excruciating task, let me tell you--absolutely the hardest part of this whole process.
Okay, still no confirmation of delivery from Gainesville, so I'm sending another packet off, with unofficial transcripts this time. Best I can do. I wonder if I should bother to pay for delivery confirmation again.
I am finishing my applications today, typical last minute style.
And as of this morning, I have a little something to take my mind off the stress...my car breaking down! Woo!
Oh January, you are the worst month.
@x,
Haha about the fake certificates. Did you find out if you still have to take TOEFL or anything like that for UCSD? I checked with them and was told exactly what you posted: that if english an international's mother tongue they don't have to take TOEFL, so thanks for that.
@ Anyone with background knowledge about UCSD, do you know if they are like UC Irvine in that international students are not given funding if accepted? I cannot seem to find/get a straight answer on this.
Also, and can anyone speak a bit about the university of wyoming's program? aside from location (being apart of the great plains), weather (being very cold) and having (it appears) an increase in their number applicants, i don't know much about the program. So again, anyone with knowledge, let me know?
@x,
That's great new's about the TOEFL in relation to UCSD! And, even better news about your recommender. Keeping my fingers crossed that we both get in somewhere.
Thanks very much Julie! I think that's what I'll plan to do!
I appreciate the feedback.
I keep checking my junk email just in case! But all in all it's been all quiet on the grad school front.
Yeah, I guess I feel like this is the calm before the storm. Things won't really start for another two weeks or so, but man, I'm so ready now!
Joy Williams teaches at Wyoming. Do you need to know anything else?
still stressed about my UT rec, even though they reassured me I have a bit more time. What if it never comes in? Ugh and a half.
so the jan 15th deadline for oregon and penn state is approaching and i'm missing two letters for ore and one for penn... does anyone know if these are schools that will read the samples and worry about the letters later or if they're sticklers about it? one of my letter of rec writers turned out to be flakier than i anticipated.
my email from ohio state's now made me all paranoid. i'm actually still kind of irritated about how they run things; i understand saying that they need your letters and letting you know so you can tell your rec writer to re-send it, but to hold a sample back for review because of one missing letter... blerg.
@ Blob:
I'm sorry about FSU! Did anything else happen with that? I emailed them freaking out but I guess I did upload my unofficial transcript, I just forgot. But I don't think I sent them my official transcript... but Janet Atwater in the English dept said they have everything they needed, and that transcripts have to go to Admissions. Which, since I didn't do, my application is essentially incomplete too since they aren't accepting anything else. Sigh. I didn't think I had to. I was so confused. I wish this process was streamlined. I'd hate for half my applications to be pointless because of some paperwork problems.
@katie Oh
It seems like a lot of schools are sticklers or at least have a firm cut off date for materials to come in. I guess maybe they have to keep things from getting out of control. But it definitely makes things hard with recommenders.
But some schools also seem to be really wonderful about it, Wisconsin and UT for example.
@Jami
Sigh, life is hard. But I have nothing to do but hope that either they're not actually as strict as they talk, or that I'll get in somewhere so I can distract myself for having made this mistake.
does anyone know if driftless house is going to log in notifications again this year?
found this link on huff-po of istories for the ipad generation.
The first one by Sherman Alexie, made me think of the MFA process. It just seemed so appropriate.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/30/short-stories-istories-or_n_663895.html
Phew! Just submitted the last of my applications and I'm too exhausted (after the whole process and a nasty bout of flu) to worry about whether they'll get there on time!
OK, this is a total amateur hour question. Are you guys doing one space after a period? And one inch margins on both sides?
@Alison: I think one space after the period works. And that's not an amateur hour question at all. As a newspaper journalist, I had to look up that rule myself (b/c I know the English/MLA world does things differently).
@X: XD; This process has been endlessly amusing, on the good days. On the bad days, there was much curling into a fetal position, infinite whining and substance abuse (of course, I'm less cool than most - so the substance in question was tea, but still). But the whole thing does have the effect of a tragicomedy derived from Murphy's laws, I think.
@Blob: Yikes. On the other hand, the second one (Resolutions) kind of balanced out that aura, ne? :)
Also, because I had not done so before (because I'm a genius, basically), subscribing ^^
@ Akatsuki:
Which part of India are you in?
@Alison: One space after sentences is standard in, I think, every major style. AP Style, MLA, Chicago Manual of Style, etc. Double spaces after sentences are just a hold-out from the technological limitations of manual typewriters, and a bit of an anachronism. Slate happened to run a funny piece on this very topic yesterday! http://www.slate.com/id/2281146/
@Blob
Why would you share that here?
@Rags: Near Kolkata, five hours away. How about you? And are you really going for the Jaipur Literary Festival? I'm super envious!
Hey all, this is a great site, although I feel somewhat late to the party. I wish I had found this site earlier.
Forgive a new face and (probably) a question that has already been discussed to death. If you have insight:
In the MFA Handbook, it refers to Oregon's numbers declining due to recent bad press regarding some Oregon faculty. Oregon happened to be on my list this year-- does anyone know what that bad press was and whether the issue has been resolved?
@almond punch
Well, it's flash fiction. And we're supposed to be writers-- I thought people would enjoy. Plus I found it ironically hilarious how applicable that first story was.
But I mean, geez, I didn't mean to upset anyone's sensibilities.
I certainly didn't expect a response like that, not sure what to make of it..
@BPM
From my understanding there is a poetry faculty member who has quite a strong personality and quite a bit of influence over the department. Some people love the professor, others find the professor very difficult to work with. The problem hasn't changed, but for some it's not a problem. If you're a fiction applicant, it won't apply to you at all. If you're a poet, like me, you just need to weigh how much working with someone who might be potentially difficult will negatively influence your writing or mfa experience.
I am a poet and chose to apply, though I did choose NOT to apply to another school because of faculty issues (U.New Mexico). The way I see it, the program is established, it's not in a state of turmoil. And I'm tough cookie when it comes to my writing. Plus, I figure if I'm accepted that means that the faculty member in question likes my work and chances are we'll work out fine because it likely isn't an aesthetic issue.
@Blob
There wasn't anything wrong with posting that link. I enjoyed it.
I agree with Jonathan. Maybe she was joking? I thought it was a strange response as well.
@blob thanks for the response. I am applying in fiction, so I won't worry about it further.
I hope, if you get accepted to Oregon, the issue doesn't come up again in poetry-- but it seems like you've got it in perspective even if it does.
Blob,
I liked the story. Especially that last line. Glad you posted it.
Not sure why some seemed offended by it. Perhaps because we're all (subconsciously even) fearing that very reaction to our work this time around?
Kind of a random question, but I've recently had work accepted to publications that are more prestigious than the publications listed on my CV. Is it worthwhile to email schools that ask for a CV and let them know.
I can't really imagine someone deciding to accept me based on that fact, but people close to me who know nothing of the process seem to think it matters.
DMC,
It's your call but I wouldn't, not unless you could do it in a way without bothering them (like sneakily upload an updated CV online, if they allow it, but most wouldn't I'd imagine).
Let the writing sample speak for you. Have faith in it! It's all about that writing sample. No amount of publications will trump that in importance.
DMC - No. Nooooo. Don't do it. You run the risk of sounding very pretentious, even though I know you have good intentions are and are just trying to help your chances. Just remember that they don't know you and will likely take it the wrong way. Awesome's right, it's about your sample. If you're getting published by strong journals, chances are your sample is going to be well received.
Congrats on your publications, by the way :D
@DMC
I am in your same boat as of Thursday morning. I went back and forth on this, but decided to go with "leave it". I was thinking from the perspective of the committee members. The department admin gets an email from one of hundreds of applicants:"just letting you know that...". I dunno. Doesn't seem like the right move. Let's say they've read my work and like it. In that case, it REALLY doesn't matter. Let's say they've read it and they either 1) don't like it or 2) I'm on the fence. I don't think they would read my "just letting you know" email and drop everything to sift through the piles and re-read my sample with new eyes. In other words, I don't think the news (while a big deal for me, personally) would change anyone's mind. I mean...are we talking "prestigious" like game-changer? Like Atlantic Monthly or The New Yorker? I would say let the recent publication give you confidence in your work and (like awesomeface says) faith that someone on a reading committee will feel similar confidence.
Thanks for the advice. That was my impulse in the first place, until some people said, "Oh you should call the admissions office and let them know. It can only help your chances."
Once again proof that you have to go through this process to understand it.
@ Akatsuki:
5 hours away from Kolkata? Certainly not in the Sunderbans! Btw, have you read 'The Hungry Tide' by Amitav Ghosh?
I live in Bangalore. And yes, I am going to the Jaipur Lit Fest. Super excited. I'm going to get my copy of 'Che' autographed by Jon Lee Anderson. Any chance you can come?
@Rags: XD Nono, try JHARKHAND. *nods solemnly* That's where I am anyway, generally speaking. Bangalore? Lit Fest?! I'm totally envious on both accounts. Bangalore is brilliant and most of my friends live there -- and I'm dying to go to the Jaipur Literary Festival, but I'm recently employed (aaaha?) as a substitute school teacher, so ... no way I can run away mid term. But yay for people from India applying for MFAs? Are you applying for Poetry or Fiction? *is applying for Fiction herself* Andandand... no, I'm out. :D
@ Akatsuki:
Jamshedpur! I hear it's a lovely city.
I'm applying for fiction too. Do you want to swap a story? Drop me a mail; id on my profile.
Is anyone else having trouble with the University of Illinois online application? It won't let me submit my application until I tell them which term I plan to start, but there aren't any options in the drop down list. The application has to be submitted by tomorrow at noon and no one is available to help me today because it's Sunday. Any advice is greatly appreciated...
matilda,
i hate to be the bearer of bad news, but i'm pretty sure that deadline was actually the 17th of DECEMBER at noon. that is, if you mean university of illinois at urbana-champaign. sorry! :(
@Matilda,
U of I's deadline was actually December 17th.
Here's what I don't understand:
Shivani acts like he's some incredibly successful writer, who we should also listen to carefully. I haven't read any of his work, he may be very talented. And he's certainly more successful than I am, or may ever be, but he's not exactly a household name-- not even close.
Not to say that doesn't give him a right to an opinion. But it does make him giving advice on how to be a writer make me want to roll my eyes.
More so than that, he seems so hell-bent on bringing down the MFA 'system.' But here's the thing, it shouldn't be such a big deal. A person can choose to do an mfa or not and can be successful or not either way. I understand someone thinking the degree is self-indulgent and unnecessary, but fine-- it's not for you. But to claim it's destroying the literary world to the extent that Shivani does not only seems ridiculous, it also seems petty.
And right now, yes, I'd rather listen to mfa professors, take the time to write and learn, and play into the 'publishing' game than listen to someone who hasn't proven themselves to really know much more about the business than any one who's well-read and writes actively.
I don't know, that's just what I think.
Scanning through the "where are you applying?" posts, I've become frightened by just how many people have applied to the same schools I have... and I can't stop eating this jar of peanut butter.
Can March please come so I can be put out of my misery?
What's terrible is that this will get so much worse.
"Every audience ever known to man is stupid. It's stupid because it takes itself seriously. No great writer ever wrote for the audience at hand."
No, evidently every writer wrote in a tiny hole in the wall, deriving inspiration from oblivion and communicating with nothing. I... really don't understand this. I don't understand it to the point of being driven utterly crazy - are we supposed to be "above" the masses or something like that? What the hell is the point of being a writer if you're writing to yourself? >_< Introspection and isolation is necessary, but is all good art supposed to come from misery? (I', being a good girl and not quoting Emily Dickinson here, of course *headdesk*) Are writers supposed to be unhappy and disconnected from other people? How are they supposed to grow, and what do they write about, tomatoes?
Gah. I'm annoyed by that article. I'm going to subscribe to Blob's wonderfully articulate and politely worded opinion, and pretend I don't have tactless words bubbling in my brain. -.-
Introspection and isolation is necessary SOMETIMES* I meant.
Also, @Rags: I wrote to you :)
Serious question:
Do the lot of you understand that a large part of getting an MFA is dealing with differing opinions--listening to the opinions in a respectful way and not jumping to your own guns and having your mind made up immediately? Because, every time I read an opinion that strays from the general precepts of this blog and Seth's MFA philosophy (funding, etc)--every time someone sways from this general opinion, or brings up questions that you might not agree with (which I have done myself), the majority of you resort to ad hominem attacks on the person in question, or some other baseless form of argument. Or you just try to discredit something someone wrote simply by saying it's nonsense (or some similar statement)....
Take this article, for example. I get the feeling that many of you don't realize that a. the article is polemic (like many of this guy's articles) and b. the article is written for an intended audience. Those who have been rejected by MFA programs can presumably gain some encouragement from this article. Fuck, those who are in MFA programs, and are unhappy about the way the programs are working out, can presumably take comfort in this.
Most of you are not in an MFA program yet. Good luck getting into one, but before you get into one, I wouldn't act as if this guy doesn't make valid points. And some of his points are valid. I don't agree with everything, but can we try to have a bit more nuance on here? It seems like most of you are absolutists when it comes to opinions. Seriously, I expect more from a bunch of book/writing nerds. The level of discourse on here, when someone attacks your supposed sacred cows (which an artist shouldn't have) has all the nuance of the Republican party's stance on abortion. This is why I rarely participate in discussion. Maybe now that it's been pointed out, things will change.
Actually, I agree with probably 99.9% of everything the article says, and I'm very much pro-MFA. For what it's worth. I might get into this tomorrow, if anyone's interested in having a serious discussion on the article and not just Oh no he attacked the MFA!
J, if you want to talk about how you feel about that article, please do -- I think that was the point of posting the link anyway.
However, I feel compelled to say this: The fact that all three people who have thus far commented on the article have a negative opinion of it does not automatically mean that we all believe in exactly the same thing. I think I see shades of disagreement here, which is also part of dealing with differing opinions, isn't it? That is, to have your own opinion, to choose between dominant shades and subscribe to the one you feel is most accurate, from your perspective.
I find it a little disagreeable that you think this means the people who have read/commented on the article did not actually pause to think, or subscribe - in totality - to Seth's/this blog's philosophy without pausing to think about different aspects. Just because a large number of people believe something doesn't mean it's automatically a "herd mentality".
J, alright, I'll bite.
Basically I think he has a structural problem. Granted, given the purpose of this blog, we're all interested in the MFA knock in the introduction-- but I don't think the article is a knock on the MFA as much as a rant on publishing in general. The article refutes "truths" introduced in his first paragraph– a fine exercise, but he doesn’t credit the truths, which leads him vulnerable to criticism. The structural basis of the article relies on the reader agreeing that: the MFA system is conformity-driven (he doesn't back up this statement, which leads him vulnerable to an observation: how can Iowa produce Philip Roth, Michael Cunningham, and Paul Harding, if it’s conformity driven– they don’t write anything like each other); the editors are overpaid (do you know any editors? If you don’t, look it up on salary.com, overworked, perhaps, but not overpaid), illiterate agents (really? Now he’s got a real problem, dubious statements, earlier, to the ridiculous) and, yet, like a ball rolling down a hill, he adds the word “arrogant” (gatekeepers) in his next sentence. He’s created an introduction with no basis in reality, but expects to have readers take him seriously, but the use of “arrogant” after an introduction like that, is something like the kettle and the pot. The cherry on top, of course, is “stupid” reviewers, who want to bargain away your soul for pittance. Again, I’d ask him to credit this statement. What makes reviewers stupid? If he had said “Stupid reviewers who shunned F. Scott Fitzgerald and torched Hemingway but gladly accepted Clive Cussler” he’d have a basis to stand on; but he doesn’t go there, so we simply have to take his word for it “stupid” reviewers, “overpaid” editors, “arrogant” gatekeepers (which he doesn’t define), and “conformity-driven MFA.”
Because he doesn’t back any of this up, when he, in a similarly arrogant tone in the rest of the article, advises readers on how to start publishing careers, the only credit he has to advise us is his name– which makes the article, in essence, about him, not his facts. And he, is clearly full of anger about something. Which leads him vulnerable to the question: why would I want to listen to/learn from an angry person who isn’t thinking straight or backing up his points? Angry people tend not to want to give out reasonable advice but instead ejaculate their vehemence. Ok, mission accomplished, but I’m, personally, no better for having read it.
Now, if I was in an angry point in my life, too, perhaps I would feel some kinship, etc. And that’s fine. But he loses his ability to make the points he wants to make, seriously, because of his structural problem in presenting it. In that sense, it’s a poorly written article– about writing– which again, discredits his cause.
J, alright, I'll bite.
Basically I think he has a structural problem. Granted, given the purpose of this blog, we're all interested in the MFA knock in the introduction-- but I don't think the article is a knock on the MFA as much as a rant on publishing in general. The article refutes "truths" introduced in his first paragraph– a fine exercise, but he doesn’t credit the truths, which leads him vulnerable to criticism. The structural basis of the article relies on the reader agreeing that: the MFA system is conformity-driven (he doesn't back up this statement, which leads him vulnerable to an observation: how can Iowa produce Philip Roth, Michael Cunningham, and Paul Harding, if it’s conformity driven– they don’t write anything like each other); the editors are overpaid (do you know any editors? If you don’t, look it up on salary.com, overworked, perhaps, but not overpaid), illiterate agents (really? Now he’s got a real problem, dubious statements, earlier, to the ridiculous) and, yet, like a ball rolling down a hill, he adds the word “arrogant” (gatekeepers) in his next sentence. He’s created an introduction with no basis in reality, but expects to have readers take him seriously, but the use of “arrogant” after an introduction like that, is something like the kettle and the pot. The cherry on top, of course, is “stupid” reviewers, who want to bargain away your soul for pittance. Again, I’d ask him to credit this statement. What makes reviewers stupid? If he had said “Stupid reviewers who shunned F. Scott Fitzgerald and torched Hemingway but gladly accepted Clive Cussler” he’d have a basis to stand on; but he doesn’t go there, so we simply have to take his word for it “stupid” reviewers, “overpaid” editors, “arrogant” gatekeepers (which he doesn’t define), and “conformity-driven MFA.”
Because he doesn’t back any of this up, when he, in a similarly arrogant tone in the rest of the article, advises readers on how to start publishing careers, the only credit he has to advise us is his name– which makes the article, in essence, about him, not his facts. And he, is clearly full of anger about something. Which leads him vulnerable to the question: why would I want to listen to/learn from an angry person who isn’t thinking straight or backing up his points? Angry people tend not to want to give out reasonable advice but instead ejaculate their vehemence. Ok, mission accomplished, but I’m, personally, no better for having read it.
Now, if I was in an angry point in my life, too, perhaps I would feel some kinship, etc. And that’s fine. But he loses his ability to make the points he wants to make, seriously, because of his structural problem in presenting it. In that sense, it’s a poorly written article– about writing– which again, discredits his cause.
J, alright, I'll bite.
Basically I think he has a structural problem. Granted, given the purpose of this blog, we're all interested in the MFA knock in the introduction-- but I don't think the article is a knock on the MFA as much as a rant on publishing in general. The article refutes "truths" introduced in his first paragraph– a fine exercise, but he doesn’t credit the truths, which leads him vulnerable to criticism. The structural basis of the article relies on the reader agreeing that: the MFA system is conformity-driven (he doesn't back up this statement, which leads him vulnerable to an observation: how can Iowa produce Philip Roth, Michael Cunningham, and Paul Harding, if it’s conformity driven– they don’t write anything like each other); the editors are overpaid (do you know any editors? If you don’t, look it up on salary.com, overworked, perhaps, but not overpaid), illiterate agents (really? Now he’s got a real problem, dubious statements, earlier, to the ridiculous) and, yet, like a ball rolling down a hill, he adds the word “arrogant” (gatekeepers) in his next sentence. He’s created an introduction with no basis in reality, but expects to have readers take him seriously, but the use of “arrogant” after an introduction like that, is something like the kettle and the pot. The cherry on top, of course, is “stupid” reviewers, who want to bargain away your soul for pittance. Again, I’d ask him to credit this statement. What makes reviewers stupid? If he had said “Stupid reviewers who shunned F. Scott Fitzgerald and torched Hemingway but gladly accepted Clive Cussler” he’d have a basis to stand on; but he doesn’t go there, so we simply have to take his word for it “stupid” reviewers, “overpaid” editors, “arrogant” gatekeepers (which he doesn’t define), and “conformity-driven MFA.”
Because he doesn’t back any of this up, when he, in a similarly arrogant tone in the rest of the article, advises readers on how to start publishing careers, the only credit he has to advise us is his name– which makes the article, in essence, about him, not his facts. And he, is clearly full of anger about something. Which leads him vulnerable to the question: why would I want to listen to/learn from an angry person who isn’t thinking straight or backing up his points? Angry people tend not to want to give out reasonable advice but instead ejaculate their vehemence. Ok, mission accomplished, but I’m, personally, no better for having read it.
Now, if I was in an angry point in my life, too, perhaps I would feel some kinship, etc. And that’s fine. But he loses his ability to make the points he wants to make, seriously, because of his structural problem in presenting it. In that sense, it’s a poorly written article– about writing– which again, discredits his cause.
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, I think Anis may have ripped off my favorite Nietzsche quote:
"Of all that is written, I love only what a person hath written with his blood. Write with blood, and thou wilt find that blood is spirit.
It is no easy task to understand unfamiliar blood; I hate the reading idlers.
He who knoweth the reader, doeth nothing more for the reader. Another century of readers—and spirit itself will stink.
Every one being allowed to learn to read, ruineth in the long run not only writing but also thinking."
The whole "written by committee" thing might not allow for the above to happen. There is a social element to MFA programs (and shit, to publishing in general) that takes away from the unique individual expression from the writer. There's a lot of "pleasing" that inevitably happens, whether the writer is fully conscious of it or not.
On the flip side, however, is the fact that it is absolutely impossible to distance yourself from community. The only true "individual" is one who, well, isn't alive. Every social being is infiltrated by society. Again, whether he or she is conscious of it or not. It's no different than writing. We are the produce of what we read, who we talk to, who reads and comments of our work. So, even if I don't seek a "committee" for my writing, one will inevitably, albeit loosely, form.
It's interesting because Anis' comments always seem to have a philosophical spin on it that makes it unpractical. It puts into this abstract (and romanticized) realm that is unfair to push on everybody. Just my two cents :P
Umm, yeah, that should say we are the "product" not "produce," heh. I guess, in a sense we are their produce too. Sort of. Yeah.
Now we're cooking with GAS, people!
A.S. says, "Be rebellious," to which I say, "Don't tell me what to do!" Actually I'm sympathetic to much of what he says. It's more or less what I told myself at age 17, 22, 34, etc. And I think the attitude served me well in many ways (even if it didn't tend to produce a lot of actual pages), but "Be rebellious" is useless as advice.
@J
BPM said most of what I would say and better than I could, so I'll try not to be too repetitive.
But I did want to say that I think your assumption that no one wanted to discuss an opposite view point was preemptive. No one said a counter point wasn't too be appreciated or comments against the 'mfa code' would be deleted and posters burned at the stake. I'm honestly a little shocked at your reaction, especially given that only two people (myself included) had even responded to the article. I never balk away from or reject another side to the argument. I was simply stating my point of view.
It's not that I think the mfa is the end all or be all of writing. And I do fully understand that Shivani has a particular audience. I was just trying to express why I wasn't that audience and won't be the audience regardless of whether I get into a program or not. Sure, I can rebel against the system, but that won't get me published and if I don't get published I won't get read so who cares? Having said that I don't think publishing is the point. But I also don't think being privately brilliant is the point either.
What irked me most about the article is that Shivani approaches it like a master, when he hasn't earned the right to claim to be one, even if he has valid points. For example, I've ridden and worked with horses most of my life. I've trained horses for the past 10 years. I think I know some really valuable things about training that others don't know, even other reputable trainers. But I'd never write a 'how to train a horse correctly' article for a riding publication because I have nothing to my name to prove I'm any good. Even if my advice was good people would say 'who the heck is this kid?' I sort of feel the same way about Shivani writing this article. Having said that I think there are other ways to share his opinions and advice without it potentially rubbing people the wrong way.
I also think the way to comfort people who don't want to attend or didn't get into an mfa program is to talk about how publishers don't really look for mfa's and that hundreds of successful writers don't have them. And that hundreds of mfa graduates do not become successful writers. Claiming it's ruining the industry just seems melodramatic.
"The only true "individual" is one who, well, isn't alive."
The Heidegger is practically bleeding through my screen a la "Amityville Horror," and as an admitted philosophy junkie, I'm loving it. Dasein. Bitchslapped awake by the ghost of a dead philosopher. I can't wait until I'm dead so that I can finally be authentic. Them crazy Germans, out in the world and mindfucking the masses. Am I crazy?
Sorry, that came out a little bizarre. My minds on Heidegger and Husserl. I won't be able to sleep tonight.
@J, others.
Re: Shivani’s article
From my observation, most people on the blog are open to honest, courteous discussion of any kind. I think much of the problem with Shivani’s article was its tone which, as J mentioned, was clearly polemical, and not in the least bit courteous. I thought he offered some good advice, particularly regarding the need to focus on one’s writing over and above any desire to publish or “get famous,” but it was generally angry, overstated, and lacking any sort of nuance.
For example, as others have already mentioned, he says, “The system…will never reward originality.” But what is “the system?” For Shivani it appears to be everything related to the MFA or the publishing industry, despite the fact that the there are significant differences between them (remember that Slate article from a while ago, MFA vs. NYC?). And does the system include small presses, like the one that published Shivani’s short story collection, or literary journals (often associated with universities), like the ones that have published his stories? Don’t the vast majority of MFA grads, if they publish at all, end up in those same small presses and lit journals?
Okay, admittedly that was a little ad hominem. But I think my point is that Shivani’s use of the term “system” lacks any sort of understanding of the vast divergences within both the MFA and the publishing industry, and by one measure he himself is participating in what he loathes.
Another statement that got me: “Every audience ever known to man is stupid.” Now, I get his point, and I agree with it. Write what you think is good, not what you think will please others. But he loses me with generalizations like these. Can people get caught up in groupthink? At times, absolutely. But are we all nothing but blind sheep? I hope not! (And I don’t think so). If a book receives near unanimous praise (no praise is ever completely unanimous), does it have to be because we humans can’t think for ourselves? What if it’s just really good?
Also, a final side note, related to J’s critcism: I didn’t read Shivani’s article as being about the MFA at all, and I don’t think most people’s dislike of it has anything to do with some sort of visceral, MFA-defending instinct.
That’s all. Sorry for the long post. :)
J,
I don't mean to sound cynical here, but I seriously doubt Shivani's aim is to "comfort" anyone, much less people who have been rejected from MFA programs. I'm pretty sure his intended audience is Sharon Olds and Jonathan Franzen. That being said, I think I kind of like the guy. I always read his pieces fully prepared to get pissed off, and then I always end up kind of loving them. I don't know what he's up to, and I think he's 99% hot air, but I think he's fun.
In general, I just wanted to say (and I'm sorry if this is too much sharing -- I'm soaked to the gills with cold medicine) that the whole anti-MFA thing is crazy. I got an MFA. It was a happy, mellow, enriching experience. No one tried to influence me to write a certain way, and every writer in my class had his or her own unique style. I just don't get the big deal. Either you want to get an MFA, or you don't. It seems crazy to me to care so much about what other people are doing. Mostly I'm thinking of that Elif Batumen article a while back.
@Jesse - I was a philosophy major, so I also love that stuff, crazy as I am. I also can't seem to put a sentence together, which is apparent from my last post, haha. I think I need to slow down and proofread a bit. Anyway. I just think it's funny when creative types try to be the philosopher or something. It comes across as narcissistic and ill-informed. I'm sure when I try to be the literary/creative type I come across that way too, though :P
Really, Anis' statements sound well and good, but he has little trust in our ability to take the experience for what it is. He creates this dichotomy that either we submit fully to the committee or distance ourselves entirely by living off berries in the mountains somewhere. How about I, a collection of experiences, enter a program with a little cynicism and skepticism, but also with a little open-mindedness and take every comment/reading/relationship on a case by case basis,for what it is, whatever it may be *for me*. I may not be able to distance myself entirely from the committee, but he should trust that I'm not an idiot and that I can take it for it is. I get that that's a vague statement, but it's only because I acknowledge the fact that choice is a tricky thing and I recognize that the "committee" will inevitably have an impact on me. But I'm okay with that and I assume everyone here is as well...
Scaryrobot - I completely agree with you that you either want it or you don't, and that it's nobody's business either way. I wonder if all the hullabaloo about it, however, is due to the fact that many attribute MFA programs to the downfall of modern literature precisely because it is based on "group-think" for lack of a better word, and tends to create "trends." I really, really agree that modern writing is very trendy (blech), but I think any connection to MFA programs is pretty tiny. It's as much a problem with publishing companies, sales, and public opinion, which I guess is what Anis is saying. I don't know. I just don't think it's so simple. Good writers move beyond trends and group-think and will probably just be appreciated posthumously anyway. I mean, I'm not a history buff, but hasn't this been the case with literature since forever, especially in the last century? I would imagine so, precisely because good writing transcends trends while most people cling to trends because they are incapable of seeing beyond them. It's only until centuries later that they appreciate the stuff, and mostly because their teachers told them to. Cynical? You bet your ass I am :D
And thus ends my manifesto! Sorry for posting so much, I was just using this blog to think out loud, or whatever you would call this thing...
Re: the SIUC application
The English Dept's website clearly states that all application materials should be sent directly to them. They also request that you complete the online application. On the online application, there are a number of required statements that the Dept. of English isn't interested in (i.e. a biographical statement (different from the statement of purpose), a statement of research/interests, etc.). Do I just ignore these and send in the requirements to the English Dept. as specified on the dept. website? Others applying to SIUC: what did you do?
Hi Matilda,
I spoke to them on the phone last week, and they said you can ignore anything that's not on the English department website, and if you upload stuff online, you do not need to send it to the department.
Also, they were extremely nice and helpful on the phone, for what it's worth.
DMC1985,
Thank you so much!
-M.F.
Hmmm, just read some more by Anis Shivani. Is it wrong for me to totally agree with him about modern literature? I mean, I completely agree with him. I don't necessarily agree with him about the MFA, but I maybe I'll change that opinion if/when I get into one?
@kaybay, no, it is definitely not wrong to agree with him; what did you read and what do you agree with?
From: American Fiction in Dismal State.
"The conventions of literary fiction are that the bourgeois hero (more likely the heroine) be vulnerable, prone to shame and guilt, unable to fit the pieces of the larger puzzle together, and on the same banal moral plane as the 'average reader': sympathetic, in other words, someone we can 'identify' with, who reflects our own incomprehension of the world, our helplessness and inability to effect change."
I agree. I just feel that everything I read in journals (or try to stomach in novels, which really is page one) is based on appealing to emotions, and by that I mean the author aims to create emotions based on using familiar scenes used in other works (i.e. husband and wife getting a divorce, woman doesn't want her baby, person from another country struggles with identity, etc), and this is done in a familiar way/method. The story changes slightly from author to author but is really not that different.
And there is a major politicization of literature that I find kind of icky, mostly because I just don't think that's what literature is there for; it's not fodder for a particular "side." It should transcend those things and deal with the meaning of life, the complexity of the human mind, what makes us who we are and how society affects us (and that's where "ethnic fiction" could really be great)
From Anis: "To win the game by making a large statement, and thus causing discomfort within one’s established social zone, is not worth winning the game at all" and "Liberal guilt disallows critical appraisal of the many forms of victim fiction produced today. American grown South Asian writers can today do no wrong, just as East Asians were the hottest thing a few years ago."
It's about trends, to use my word of choice...
More quotes:
"Open up any current leading journal, and the typical story starts off with these phrasal bits: 'My mother…my father…I was in the sixth grade…my friend Ellie…in the backseat of my parents’ car…' There is no plot, no bildungsroman (pointless little epiphanies don’t count), no larger purpose to the minor childhood incident being recounted (this easily turns into the memoir form)."
"Romanticism, existentialism, stoicism, nihilism, all are forbidden modes of perception; only a constricted bourgeois realism, steeped in paralysis and grief, is accepted."
@ kaybay
I have to disagree. The goal of literature is not, I believe, to concoct a situation that has never before been put to page. There are no new stories in the world. The human drama remains the same. It is the telling of the tale that makes it good or not. And I think there is good fiction being written today.
The problem with American literary fiction today is that writers will even waste their time discussing this shit.
Write a good story. That's it. Just do it.
Don't overcomplicate things. Haven't you ever wondered why the majority of your favorite writers DON'T have Ph.D. tacked onto the end of their names?
Do you know why?
Give it a couple guesses.
I don't think it's a waste of time to discuss anything.
It's easy to dole out a platitude like "write a good story", but the definition of a good story is a topic worthy of debate and consideration.
@j
Kudos to you for your bold statements. You have provoked a very interesting conversation.
But I do not see eye-to-eye with Anis Shivani. First of all, I do not agree that every brilliant writer must necessarily break with convention, which I see as his basic premise: "Rebel against the expectations of the ruling literary establishment. Otherwise your art is impure." An artist who breaks with convention in a powerful way and manages to challenge and change the literary landscape is necessarily brilliant, and is more likely to be remembered for generations to come than someone who writes in accordance with the prevailing "rules" of the time, but I don't think that all writing that is not technically revolutionary is boring or timid or brown-nosing. This is just a personal belief, but I hold that artists can speak truthfully -- and originally -- within the limits of their respective conventions.
Every generation has its conventions and its styles and its palette of concerns; I guess I just don't see contemporary convention as being particularly noxious to the soul of art, nor I see the palette of concerns as narrow, predictable and prescribed. At any rate I certainly do not agree with Shivani's hailing of "classical authors" as the true "masters," as if everything that has been written in the past thirty or forty years or so is repetitive drivel, as if during decades and centuries of the distant past all the greatest artists had thrived and become known. He blames today's world of editing and publishing and writing programs for mediocre fiction because he's familiar -- or thinks he's familiar -- with the ins and outs of this particular flawed system, but social and political realities have always worked to drown out brilliant writers and artists. Case in point: the canon he champions, as we all know, is comprised mostly of white American and European male authors. All of these writers are brilliant, yes, but that is because time distills the long list of publications from every period of history down to its hallmarks. If you picked up a literary quarterly published in Manchester in the winter of 1815, who knows what you would find?
I do not perceive a literary desert around me. Maybe I am just young, optimistic and naive, and in forty years, or even in ten years, I will see the disaster Shivani sees. Now, though, I love a lot of what I read. I love a lot of the very authors on Shivani's hit list (Foer, Cunningham, etc). I find nothing wrong with stories that begin "My mother" or "My father," if they end up being good honest stories. However, I am not a critic by nature. In fact I very much dislike critics by nature, because it is a lot easier to talk about what great art should be than to make it yourself.
I agree with ABC. As a writer, we have to focus on things that illicit some kind of emotional response. And there's truly no such thing as a completely new story. The trick is how do we tell that same old story in a way that resonates and re-invents it.
In other news:
Who's taking bets?
Do you think we'll get any notifications this week?
RE: "...everything I read in journals...is based on appealing to emotions, and by that I mean the author aims to create emotions based on using familiar scenes used in other works (i.e. husband and wife getting a divorce, woman doesn't want her baby, person from another country struggles with identity, etc.)"
Am I the only one who thinks Shivani is being outrageously reductive, here? One can undermine just about any practice, even entire industries, by being grossly reductive. It's never a very thoughtful position, however. It sure can ruffle some feathers though.
@ Blob & ABC
I agree with you. Not sure who said it, but aren't there only two stories? The visitor and the journey? And I'm pretty sure "there's nothing new under the sun" is Biblical (i.e., real old).
In other news...
Among many unhealthy habits I've developed in the interim, I've been obsessively looking at the driftless house lists of first notifications from 2010. To remedy, I simply made a list (schools to which I applied):
2010 first notices (fiction)
Indiana: February 3rd
Syracuse: February 6th
Illinois: February 9th
Vanderbilt: February 10th
Cornell: February 12th
Minnesota: February 18th
Iowa: February 19th
Michigan: February 19th
Purdue: February 24th
Michener: March 3rd
Houston: March 12th
Aaaaah!!!!
Per the University of Wyoming web site, UW received a record 350 applications this year (which would be almost twice as many as 2010) and "the director anticipates making selection decisions by the end of February."
Hey Clever Screen Name,
Did you get an email confirmation or anything from Wyoming? Due to some computer issues, I wasn't able to apply till yesterday and I'm a little paranoid applying so late in the game.
Re: Wyoming
I received email confirmation the same day I submitted everything, but I applied about a week ago--so they probably weren't so backed up at the time.
@Alison
You'll likely receive two confirmations, but I wouldn't be paranoid if you haven't received either yet. There's one from the CW program, but that's not an automated email, it's actually from an administrative assistant who's probably swamped by applications and hasn't had a chance to respond to everybody yet. The other confirmation came directly from UW Admissions and that was the standard automated acknowledgment of application. For some reason, it takes a couple of days for the university to download you app so I didn't get that confirmation until a few days after I applied. My guess is that you're fine and they're just a little backed up.
I received a same day automated message from Wyoming (for the online app). I also received a message from an MFA administrator telling me that they received everything and were just waiting on an undergrad transcript. They seem pretty cool assuming you get the important stuff in on time.
@kaybay and others
Thanks for keeping the discussion going on the Shivani front in a productive way.
I think, kaybay, you said that you were a philosophy major? I find that fascinating and I'm totally excited for you, in that I imagine you have a great library of tools/thinking/ available to you that perhaps others of us don't have. I think it gives you a lot of options for storytelling. Somehow, I think that's involved in this discussion but I'm not exactly sure how.
I have to respectfully disagree with you and Shivani's point, though, which I've paraphrased in my head as "storytellers no longer take on big issues". I'm indebted to Almond Punch and blob for speaking well on it already-- particularly blob who used the word that has been running around in my head all day "emotional."
I think it's true that authors today don't necessarily take on big issues (nihilism, etc, mentioned in your post)- I think some do, and I tend to read them, but I don't have any reason to doubt that you find many stories boring or "the same old". I don't think, however, that a story with the words "my father", "my mother", etc, is by definition not taking on large issues.
One can discuss large issues and still have a mother, no? It strikes me that speaking about mothers, fathers, etc, allows us to talk about large issues in a way that also allows an emotional connections to the reader, as we all have mothers and fathers. Far from being second-rate fiction, I would think that's a pretty good strategy.
First of all, Courtney, I hope we go to the same program because you're awesome, chica :D
Second of all, I really didn't mean to rile anyone up about this. Who'd a thought literature could get people so irritated. It's a discussion about literature. On a creative writing blog. What else do we discuss until notifications start pouring in? Liquor and beer?
Anyway.
I agree with all that most everything has been done before. Hell, my first story is domestic realism and I'm certainly not claiming it's a unique plot or subject matter. I agree with you also that it's not what you write about but how you write it and how unique the story-telling is the second (or millionth) time around. BUT, BUT, BUT! there is a familiarity in most of what I read in terms of style, structure, and definitely subject matter. And I would be a little more comfortable with this if journals/presses were willing to take risks and publish stuff that bucks this familiarity. It just doesn't happen. People are looking for familiarity precisely because they don't want to gamble and risk a PR nightmare. They want consistency and sedation.
I had a discussion with a friend of mine about this. She gets irritated by all the writer "types," people who just think it's cool to be a "writer" (a writer! *said a la Tobias Funke*) and live the "life." They are more interested in doing what they need to do to procure grants, teaching positions, and notoriety. That means that they write to please the powers that be in order to be allowed into the elite social circle that all the lesser "types" also want to be a part of. I think that's what Anis is saying too. I obviously don't think that's everybody in writing or everyone pursuing the MFA (please, please don't think either that I mean all of you; I've swapped samples here with some fantastic writers), but I think it's definitely out there in a big way. It's like politics, Hollywood, the banking industry. It's just people with power and money who can make all the peons envious and/or impressed. Story of life, my friends...
BPM - I wish philosophy made me a better writer! I don't know, though, I think sometimes it just means I blow hot air :P
Good points, by the way, to all. You too, BPM. I do agree with you that the emotional connection between writer and subject is of utmost importance and if the need to write comes from issues within the family or with identity, etc... then that should be dealt with. That's what writing is about. I guess it's about intention?
@kaybay
I guess so much of what side of this debate you fall might be influenced by what kind of irking experiences you've had with 'writers.'
For me, I automatically get a bit suspicious of anyone who claims to be super 'experimental' or 'original' only because I've encountered so many writers like that who's reaction to everything is 'well, you just didn't get it' or 'I'm not writing for the reader.' And while no one should write for the reader, ignoring that they exist is stupid. Also stupid is excusing just plain bad writing, no grammar, etc as being 'experimental.' Yes, people can be experimental and great, yes people can bend all sorts of rules. But to bend the rules, you have to understand them first.
If one more person cites e.e. cummings in defense of their miserable poetic punctuation, I'm going to scream. Cummings didn't have bad grammar, he just made his own grammar rules and then stuck with them. So the reader wasn't left completely confused, but rather forced to think outside their usual confines.
Anyway, the point of this rant is, when someone says 'be different, be original, don't be part of the system.' I worry that they'll encourage people to use 'i'm not writing for you, or YOU just don't get it' as an excuse. That excuse is fine if you're just writing for yourself in your journal. But if you're trying to publish or workshop, then well, you're not writing for yourself.
Sigh.
Blob - yep, those people irk me too :D It's a fine line, I think, between experimenting with plot, structure, language, subject matter, etc, and douchebaggery (or lunacy? Not sure). But when it's done right, it's pretty dern awesome... I guess the same can be said about more "traditional" writing too. It all depends :)
@ kaybay, BPM, blob, and everyone involved in these awesome discussions –
I’ve been reading along and I hope you all don’t mind my jumping in here at the end (or in the middle, who knows yet). I wanted to go back to what kaybay said a few comments ago about journals/presses sticking to the familiar. I don’t read a lot of journals (I have a complicated relationship with short stories as a form), so I can’t speak to what they’re publishing consistently, but I recently picked up the three books in a Best American Fantasy series (edited by Matthew Cheney) which was sadly discontinued. They used a very broad definition of fantasy—we’re talking the kind of editors that like to play around with categories—and included stories that were published in The New Yorker, Mississippi Review, Georgia Review, Oxford American, One Story, Zoetrope, as well as places you might expect when you hear ‘fantasy,’ like Strange Horizons. I’d be hard-pressed to explain what makes some of them fantasy, other than a feeling of the uncanny or an oddness that emanates from them, but neither are they the kinds of stories that I feel like I find when I try and pick up individual issues of literary journals (though a couple of my favorites do, in fact, include the words “my father” within the first two paragraphs).
I don’t know what my point is—I guess, maybe that unusual, risky stuff is out there? I sometimes feel like the problem I face as a reader is not ‘why isn’t anyone publishing anything interesting’ but ‘how do I find what is interesting to me among the piles of words that are published every year.’ I think that’s also why I tend to be several years behind in reading new stuff—it takes that long for me to find it.
As a writer I try really hard not to think about what is and isn’t being published because it gives me performance anxiety. ;-)
Blob's comment reminded me of Michael Cunningham's article in the NY Times here. It's not an article about Who Do You Write For, in specific, but he touches on it and I think his insights are useful. The link to the full article is below. The interesting paragraphs, for our purposes, are copied here:
Cunningham, Michael. Found In Translation, New York Times, October 2, 2010.
"I remind them, as well, that no one wants to read their stories. There are a lot of other stories out there, and by now, in the 21st century, there’s been such an accumulation of literature that few of us will live long enough to read all the great stories and novels, never mind the pretty good ones. Not to mention the fact that we, as readers, are busy.
We have large and difficult lives. We have, variously, jobs to do, spouses and children to attend to, errands to run, friends to see; we need to keep up with current events; we have gophers in our gardens; we are taking extension courses in French or wine tasting or art appreciation; we are looking for evidence that our lovers are cheating on us; we are wondering why in the world we agreed to have 40 people over on Saturday night; we are worried about money and global warming; we are TiVo-ing five or six of our favorite TV shows.
What the writer is saying, essentially, is this: Make room in all that for this. Stop what you’re doing and read this. It had better be apparent, from the opening line, that we’re offering readers something worth their while.
I should admit that when I was as young as my students are now, I too thought of myself as writing either for myself, for some ghostly ideal reader, or, at my most grandiose moments, for future generations. My work suffered as a result."
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/03/opinion/03cunningham.html
Total aside, to the New Yorkers out there, does anyone know anything about Gotham Writing Workshops? Worth the time?
@BPM
I'm starting my second GWW class tonight. I enjoyed my first workshop, but because there is no competition for admission, you do get a varied group, particularly in the level 1 fiction class. But I would say it was a success. 1) My instructor ended up providing a letter of rec for my apps and 2) one of the stories I workshopped in that class was accepted for publication recently.
Also, I work full time and there are 1M reasons NOT to write in the evenings when I get home from the office. So the GWW classes keep a deadline over my head, and motivation to write every day.
Thanks, Open Spaces, Clever Screen Name, and Matilda!
Now that I'm nearly done applying I'm all like "Ahhhh it feels good to have my life back. What should I do with myself now?"
And then it's midnight and I'm like, "Hmm...I bet one of my recommendors forgot to submit my letter."
@BPM
Thanks for posting the link to that article!
I had a good laugh over this part:
"Although the words “Call me Ishmael” have force and confidence, force and confidence alone aren’t enough. “Idiot, read this” has force and confidence too, but is less likely to produce the desired effect."
If anyone is interested in trading samples, I've finally busted up the nerve to show mine!
jami.nakamura.lin@gmail.com
I'm in nonfiction, but am interested in reading anything! I have to do something for the three weeks until I can start crossing my fingers for acceptances...
Also, another plug for the related Facebook group, which is quite active and updates every few minutes.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_111211268949325
If anyone is interested in sharing their fiction sample, I'm interested to see what people are writing about. Since the samples have been sent out, I won't make any comments - other than to tell you it's better than mine!
Anyway, terryjassen at yahoo.com
Just got an e-mail from Univ. Colorado saying the committees began meeting on Monday (17th) and will make decisions in the first week of February. Which is two-ish weeks from now. Yikes.
@Trochilidae
oh wow, exciting! I didn't even apply there and I'm exited! I just want to start hearing news (from anyone)!
i assume that means they've already read through submissions and are now gathering to discuss?
@Blob
Your assumption seems likely, since two weeks is not a lot of time to read submissions and then make decisions...but I have no idea. But man, their projected notification date(s) is two weeks earlier than I wrote down in my spreadsheet file (aka panic list). Which gives me a bit of anxiety, which is odd, since I still have presumably two weeks before I need to be feeling anxiety.
Gah. So it begins.
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