Ashley Brooke. You're my new favourite person. Anybody who puts up: "pretend to be" "when I was 14" "gay history teacher" and "rap message boards" in one sentence is, quite simply, an interesting person. Now I really want to know some of the things you said.
Cratty, Haha, I rationalized this by telling myself I was creating a character. His name was Alexei and he had a Queer as Folk icon and used to preface sentences with "My boyfriend said" or "I was with my boyfriend" in attempt to get a rise out of homophobic mainstream rap fans. I don't think I ever said anything too crazy, though, and I got bored quickly because I didn't know enough about rap to attempt to get into the historical implications about it. I remember asking "how can I get my students interested in history can I use rap?" or something like that and there some interesting answering.
I am. I was thinking about giving up meat for Lent, which I'll still do. But I was contemplating giving the blog up for Lent. But I'm not sure if it would be a good or bad thing...
Oh Ashley, that's awesome. I'm saving that line for posterity. It's so detailed and quirky; it's like something Liz Lemon would say. "When I was 14 . . . " &heart;
You should totally troll. Now that Dreux's exposed himself as decent and (gasp!) extremely helpful, Patrick is just a loveable Irish rogue, my favourite MFA mentalist ever RealTalk has done a runner and the closest thing we currently have to a troll is someone who keeps popping up to talk about how they're practically on X and Y tip-top program, which isn't trolling (i know!), just bragging - er, i mean, just mad confidence and probably the damn truth although it's annoying (and i wish i were so lucky)...we need a troll! Some kind of absurd and cruel provocateur who we, in turn, can easily ridicule. Some kind of Cartman figure poking away at our sanity because they've already lost their own. Oh, trolls.
Step to it, or you get no ♥
Kaybay, i just cut and pasted. My ♥ is cheap & secondhand.
Also, yes, don't come round these parts for Lent; will be purifying. (Come as a troll).
Ooooh, Eli, I love your suggestion! I could form some kind of alter ego. BayKay! The mean, old, warped housewife who hates literature and will go online only to call everyone here self-centered and self-righteous!
Tee Hee. Incidentally, it's why I'm not Catholic anymore. Well, not a practicing one - I still wield the title when it becomes strategically necessary.
Try being the only goth kid in a suburban, silicon valley high school with a student body of 200. It took me until junior year to adopt the sweater vest and become a full fledged member of the community : - )
Oh, for all those readers who are totally confused, I asked if I should give up this blog for Lent and then deleted it because I didn't know if bringing up something religious would make people uncomfortable. But alas, people read it before it disappeared :D
Kaybay, bring BayKay on! She sounds like a feisty one. I'm sure she'll drive more than a few of us to some apoplectic keyboard-banging. And then you can do a Scooby-Doo reveal on April 15th. Brilliant!
It is I, BayKay. I have hijacked KayBay's account and have come here to hate on all of you and your fuuuuunky assss frieeeeends. Baaaay Kaaaay keepin' it reeeeal. Go write in solitude you self-centered egoists! Youtubian kittens!
I feel disillusioned. I did not know real talk was an actual song that was being reference in realtalks initial appearance. I feel empty inside. The original realtalk no longer seems as genius.
Hold up, hold up Didn't I just give you money to go get yours hair, toes and nails done the other day, hmm yeah your ass was smiling then real talkkkkk
Kaybay, me too, i'm gonna go FULL TROLL once my rejections are in. I'm going to pounce on all you happy MFA bunnies with trolls of Cthulhian proportions.
Ho, ho, bitter, twisted ho.
Courtney, I know. I promised I'd stay away from here but I've been chuckling away @ all senior citizens & BayKay. I mean, with, not @. With.
Coughdrop, yep. Sorry. RealTalk. But c'mon, aren't you glad the provenance of realtalk happens to be R. Kelly, the greatest absurdist poet of the 21st century? No? Not even a little?
Give it another week. The trolls will multiply. We will have rejection trolls, and waiting trolls, and generally disgruntled trolls. Many, many trolls. I feel my hair changing to an unnatural hue as we speak. Is that a charm in my belly button?
Oh, you weren't talking about THOSE trolls...well...
Hi, All, I was waitlisted at Illinois and was just curious if anyone has insight about the size of waitlists generally --- are they typically longer or shorter than the number of spots available? I'm sure this info has been discussed before, but I can't find anything now that we're at over 2K posts per mailbag!
PS - BIG CONGRATS to all who have gotten news this week!!!
Congrats Sara! I really think it depends on the school, though, so the list could be short or long. Maybe send a polite e-mail asking if they can let you know how far down the list you are. I think I remember folks doing this in years past and some were able to get more info that way.
I remember reading unsubstantiated rumors (probably here) that Illinois was only going to accept 2(!) poetry applicants this year. That's CRAZY competitive. (I'm not sure if the same would be true of other genres.)
Now...if those rumors are true, I'm not sure if that would mean a longer or shorter waitlist.
That Yale thing is nuts. They must all be completely addled by prozac. Or they're Thunderbirds puppets. Utterly terrifying, either way. (Unless it's tongue-in-cheek, in which case the glossy freaky Yalies are just about forgiven).
Sam, congratulations on Syracuse, by the way. That's a huge deal. You must be bloody awesome!
@Sam, I mean Cornell! Same sentiments apply though, innit.
Morgan - I'm going to the Pavement-curated UK festival, so you'd have to save big bucks to come over here & join the Malkmusian fan-out...but surely you can scrimp and save to make it to one of these babies instead: http://atpfestival.com
I went to school (and was actually friends) with the son of James Williamson (of Iggy and the Stooges). Although at the time no one really knew who he was and he hadn't played the guitar in like over 20 yrs (he was an executive at Sony). But it looks like he'll be touring again according to the papers. Perhaps we can work together to seduce Iggy? haha
I'm finishing my undergrad at the University of Michigan right now--I seriously, no lie, applied because I knew Iggy had grown up here in the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti area. I give tours and info sessions to prospective students, and when I tell them I'm out of state (from Kentucky), they usually ask why I'm at UM. I sometimes say "Iggy Pop" and leave it at that. :)
@ Old Poet - I was waitlisted for fiction. Don't know how many spots they have to offer in poetry or fiction, but their letter said there were 200 applicants (again, unclear what the genre breakdown is there). Definitely curious about how the waitlist process works, so maybe sending an email in March would be helpful.
Yeah, Gordon Lish can stuff it. I hope nobody ever edits my work that heavily. I also strongly disagree that "talent is irrelevant." Sounds like some garbage quote that you'd find on a poster in front of a picture of the beach and a basketball player hanging on a hoop. No offense to whoever posted it. I agree that hard work is important.
Gordon Lish is a genius. I've read the unedited versions of the stories that Lish reworked, and while they're quite different, both versions are equally incredible.
Lish may have been a pretty brash figure and very, very hard to deal with (one of my mentors happens to have a lot of crazy Gordon Lish stories because they were colleagues), but he was a talented editor who had a real eye for talent. He MADE a lot of great writers -- writers we love and who we might never have heard of if Lish hadn't put them in his catapult.
... if Lish was such a genius, why didn't he write stories himself that were immortal? it's always easier to subtract from something that's already there than to create something brand new. I suspect if you pulled literary editors into a confession booth and drilled them, many of them would admit they were failed writers.
While I have no doubt that many editors once had dreams of writing, the two are completely different skill sets. I know an awful lot of good writers who can't edit and vice versa. Writing is about passion and innovation and empathy. Editing is about rules, about clarity, about strategy. Obviously, editors don't have much of a job without writers, but there's a reason writers always thank their editors in books too, and it's not just to be polite. It's a real, important team that creates a lasting document.
As a contracted writer with an editor, I can say that it is a hugely collaborative process, and you better believe I'll be thanking my editor. That said, a writer doesn't stand a chance of even getting to the point of having a sale and a pub team without a strong internal editor, too.
Of the editors I know, some are also successful writers, and some have simply decided that their strengths lie more in the ability to take potential and rein it in, to strengthen others' stories. That's not to say they are failed writers, they've simply followed their strengths, the way an art director can also design but has an eye for perfecting and overseeing and embraces that.
I agree with your sentiments completely. Lish was a genius and definitely helped a lot of writers breakthrough and reach their full potential. Mitzi Angel is another editor that a lot of writers thank for helping make their stories really shine. While some agents and editors (and I'll add folks like publicists/event managers/designers) may have had dreams of writing (or creating something of their own), you can't deny that these professions are invaluable to writers. Writing is one thing but publishing (and polishing to a finish) and getting ones work out there is something else entirely and many writers just don't have those skill sets ( or don't care to acquire them). But with that said, large publishing houses don't have the manpower they did even 10 years ago and small publishing houses are filled with good intentions and a lot of vision but are often limited by actual resources. If all a writer wants to do these days is write and not do their best to edit, market/publicize, learn how to do some basic programming, and in a sense become a writer/businessperson, even an extraordinary book might be left in the dust (and I'm sure this happens more than we think).
"If all a writer wants to do these days is write and not do their best to edit, market/publicize, learn how to do some basic programming, and in a sense become a writer/businessperson, even an extraordinary book might be left in the dust (and I'm sure this happens more than we think)."
What bothers me is when a writer is unwilling to acquire those skills, and expects to reap the benefits of having them.
That's great, MFA Guy! I'm glad to know that they do those things in batches!
I am seriously so glad to hear that people are getting accepted/receiving good news after the initial acceptances went out. Although I'm sure some schools are done with acceptances (Syracuse), it does keep me a little more hopeful about the others.
I have another GNE (Good News Email). I've been selected for an interview with Virginia Tech. When I first read that email, I was thinking to myself, "No, that can't be right because I read on the MFA Blog that Virginia Tech -- like Indiana, Cornell, Wisconsin, Alabama, Vanderbilt -- was done with all their selections." I had all but given up on VT until today.
Lesson to be learned: You're not rejected until you get the official rejection notice. So, everyone, there is hope.
So, based on the various GNE's I've gotten, I may be accepted to three schools, unless:
(1) I bomb the VT interview, (2) don't send in the missing TA app. to School #2, or (3) fail the background check for School #3.
Jesus Almighty! And I thought I made a mistake in submitting the particular writing samples that I did.
I was very disappointed that Alice Munro -- famous Canadian author -- was not selected as one of the eight flag/banner bearers at the Vancouver Olympics. I mean, Donald Sutherland!?! Anne Murray!?!?! Come on...
I really do think most schools accept in batches. I don't know how they do (or why), but it obviously appears that that's how they do it. Maybe they have school fellowships for those notified first (FSU does that), the committee agreed emphatically on a few, but needs to discuss others for whatever reason, etc. I wouldn't even be surprised if they have groups of samples that they read and draw a certain amount of acceptances from each one, almost like a "rolling acceptance" kind of thing. Who knows!!!!
Kaybay, I've actually thought a lot about the rolling one, maybe because it's the one that's most flattering to applicants lol. Whatever the reason, it does seem that the YES's come in batches.
I somehow don't see Alice Munro being interested in carrying the Olympic torch. Most liberal Victorians (and she is from Victoria) are NDP members, and the NDP's had some pretty harsh things to say about the Vancouver olympics, which are essentially taking place on stolen land with money that was taken from BC taxpayers in a manner that closely resembles highway robbery after the city and provincial governments failed to set accurate budgets or to find proper insurers for cost overruns. My guess is Munro would have turned down an opportunity to be involved with the ceremonies.
Dreux, If the content of your post is true, then I would tend to agree. But boy oh boy, wouldn't she look great in a White Winter parka while bearing the flag?
(I could be wrong but I think we're all sitting on stolen land.)
Ashley, I think the point of quote is that, no matter how talented you think you are, there's a million more writers out there who are (at least) as equally talented as you, and what separates one from the other is how much you want it, how much you will sacrifice, and how much time you spend perfecting your craft. I mean, if writing success was gauged by how much time someone wasted everyday posting all of their thoughts and opinions on this blog, you'd have a Pulitzer by now.
BC is REALLY stolen land. And by that I mean it was stolen very recently. You have to keep in mind that compared to most of the US and Canada, BC is a very recently settled area, so there are a lot of people still alive who can remember the campaign of displacement waged against their indigenous cultures. Some indigenous cultures in BC didn't even experience first contact with white folks until just around the beginning of the 20th century. Not to mention there's an even fresher/more recent legacy of cultural genocide there. I.E. there are people as young as their late 30s who remember being taken from their families and sent to boarding schools which were pretty much concentration camps run by the church.
Throw in the BC Olympics tasteless penchant for misappropriating indigenous cultural images, and you've got a total cultural clusterfuck. Not to mention the irony that much of the visual material they've misappropriated for the olympics is Inuit and BC is not an Inuit homeland.
But if you're a big Munro fan, you should visit Victoria and go to her ex-husband's bookstore (Munro's Book), among other Munro landmarks.
I did the first two years of my BFA in Victoria and she's definitely pretty omnipresent in the literary community there. And I did see her in public once, but decided not to bug her.
Melv, I disagree that that was the point of the quote - the idea that talent is "irrelevant" is not the same as talent being a prerequisite. I would argue that the degree to which Gordon Lish has "edited" (http://www.newyorker.com/online/2007/12/24/071224on_onlineonly_carver) gives meaning to his quote that is basically: You don't really need talent, the editors will fix it all up for you, you just need to have drive drive drive. Not to mention that the generic quote of hard work being all you need is a tired and unrealistic cliche. It is about as nonsensical as saying all you need is ability.
I also don't appreciate your belittling comment about my activity or time spent on this blog, but I'm going to assume I'm misreading your tone since this is just the internet.
I haven't been keeping up, and I can't seem to find a search function for these comments, so forgive me if this is an obvious question, but, it seems as if fiction applicants have heard back from vanderbilt?
I'm just curious, because it hasn't been mentioned much--who applied to Arizona State this year? I did (duh!) in both fiction and poetry, and they're one of my most anticipated. Wondering who else is in that boat?
How contemporary? Historical stuff about contact and early colonization and so forth? Or more recent stuff involving land claims and lawsuits over residential school issues?
You kinda have to reach into some pretty dubiously-written anthropological sources for the more historical information, though that's thankfully changing as more indigenous historians begin to explore it. There's definitely a wealth of stuff about the more recent issues, though.
Either way, I'd be happy to point you to a good starting point, so just tell me what you're most interested in.
I heard WUSTL will still be notifying on Monday and Tuesday. Seems surprising since their first fiction notification was reported on 2/10 and I think they only accept about 5 applicants, but I called, and that's what they reported. So, still a little room for hope!
Congratulations on all the acceptances! Best of luck to the rest!
good luck to WUSTL applicants! I'm here for my undergrad. It's a snowy, dull day here in St. Louis, but the coffee is hot and the library is full of fluffy chairs. Not a bad place to be.
I'm having difficulty signing onto Austin@UT. Has anyone else had trouble with the logon/password? I can't tell if it won't accept my password or if there's just a tech glitch. Any suggestions?
I had trouble for awhile because I realized I was putting in my username for the application rather than the EID username. For some insanely stupid reason, they are different. I'd go through all your emails and make sure you're using the correct name!
Vtech's program (if I get in or waitlisted) is pretty intense. You take 4 classes a semester (most MFAs seem to be 3) as well as the later teaching responsibilities.
I think last year Vandy had a waitlist of 7 (per genre) I'm not sure if they changed things up this year.
I thought about that, but it looks like the problem is more with the password than the logon. I've got the UTEID, which I saved in a word doc. Don't know. Feel like I'm stuck in a citrix system.
is it your first time signing on?? They gave me a temporary password and I had to change it. If not, I don't have any ideas sorry! :( I know how frustrating that must be!
Has anyone here applied to Temple? I understand that it's a new program, though TSE has historical data on response times for fiction.
Nevertheless, that's an early response time for fiction... I presume, with this year's flood of applications, that Temple is not expected to notify as early as 2/9?
Great to hear that about WashU! And yes, I called Vandy and they said they weren't done. Also, re: WashU, last year, from what I've gleaned from TSE and P&W, they had acceptances on the 10th, then on the 20th, so they spread out.
I applied to Temple (for poetry). I got a call last week letting me know I was in, but the person I called said the phone call was an impromptu thing and that official responses were forthcoming. I expect you'll hear soon.
excellent news about WUSTL. I live not too far from St. Louis. I love that city, and the school is gorgeous. Good luck to all applicants and acceptances there.
I also applied to Arizona State for fiction.
I've been biting my nails on Kansas. We're almost a week past their notification date from last year. I'm sure they had a huge increase in applicants, but it doesn't alleviate the suspense! Any word on when they'll start contacting people?
Temple has had an MA in Creative Writing for a number of years. They're hoping to transition to an MFA this fall (Temple fully expects to get approval to change to an MFA, but last I heard, the official approval hadn't gone through yet).
I didn't apply to Temple because I'm looking for a geographic change (but I do love Philly and hope to move back here someday), but I know a number of people who've gone through the MA in Creative Writing program and they all speak highly of it.
I'm glad they spread out acceptances. Howevs, makes the process so much more grueling and mysterious!! Some day I'd love to learn the method behind the tiered notification madness.
@Danielle, no insight here! Just taking solace that last year first YES was on the 10th, and then another person announced a YES on the 20th of Feb over at P&W (this is what neurotic writers do to keep from biting off ALL their fingernails :p)
I think kaybay was speculating on the reasoning, too. My thoughts: It's madness! And CRUEL.
Caleb, Kansas sent an e-mail in December that said they would be notifying the second week on February. Since that has pretty much passed, I assume that they are just a bit behind. This notification date only applies to applicants who had all materials in by Dec 31st, though, as they also have another deadline later for applicants who aren't applying to funding. It's always possible that they notified last week and we didn't hear because the lucky people aren't active on the blog, but I'm hoping the news is yet to go out!
CRUEL-YES! I'm still shocked so many schools have started notifying so early. With app. number so high, I sorta figured for later decisions. These committees must have implemented some finely-tuned reading strategies by now. Pretty fascinating!
@Danielle what's your list? I'm just GLAD they're doing it early. I cringe at the thought of waiting until MARCH for the rest of my answers :\ I just keep mumbling to myself "I should have applied to more schools..." ;p
Oh, I should also say I went to WashU for undergrad, and did a minor in Writing, and they don't seem to like taking those students back into grad school, so chances are SLIM, but it's a GORGEOUS school/area, fwiw.
I'm ashamed to confess my list, honestly. It's so out of balance, it's rather laughable. But I'm already in the MFA program at Portland State, so I figured I'd aim high to make it worth my while to leave mid-program. So I applied to:
Virginia WashU Iowa
I know, I know. Absurd, right? I wanted to apply to several more, and I'm kicking myself, too.
WashU is actually my dream school. Plus, I have family in St. Louis. You're so lucky to have studied there!! I'm surprised they don't get more applicants, although I suspect this year the number was pretty high.
@YARebels when did you attend WashU? I'm just finishing up my undergrad with a writing minor. I didn't apply here for the MFA but I really will miss St. Louis and WashU campus in general! Not to mention the St. Louis restaurants... I live near clayton and the eating is incredible here.
@Ashley Just graduated last May! Took a year off to focus on my writing professional, which I'm thankful about because doing edits on deadline during school would have been murder. Loved it, though! And already missing school :) My major was in Communication Design, what about you?
@YARebels tell me about it. I realized about halfway through the applying process that a year off would have saved my sanity. Oh well, live and learn.
I'm majoring in history- I'm actually at Olin as we speak (level a where the good tables are) working on my senior thesis. Or, rather, pretending to work, and blog-surfing instead.
Just wanted to take a minute to say how much I appreciate the informal quality of dialogue here. Popped over to the Speakeasy, and aside from those of you who post both places, was both laughing and indignant simultaneously. Apparently this blog is an anxiety-ridden negative environment... and the Speakeasy seems to be populated with personality profiles straight out of the Hipster's Handbook. :)
I don't think anyone would discount the service that editors provide. They are a huge benefit to writers.
However, Lish's comment can be seen as a little insulting to writers because of his reputation as an editor. Personally, I like Lish, but it's almost as though he's saying he can make anyone great as long as they're willing to work with him.
What if Carver came out and said, "I see the notion of outside influence as irrelevant. All I see is the writer's talent and ambition. Dream, dream, dream." That would be a little insulting to a group of editors, no?
A question regarding programs that offer partial funding:
If a program offers partial funding in the form of assistantships (let's say 70% of MFAers get teaching or tutoring gigs), do they tend to divide that evenly among genres? For example, 3 fiction writers means 3 poets? Just curious.
Whether you're competing only with other poets, or also with the fiction writers, or even with the PhD students for those assistantships depends on the school/program you attend.
Do you have to apply specifically for TAships etc. in advance, or can it sometimes be something the program works with you to figure out after acceptance?
Again, depends on the program. Some require you to submit additional application materials (a la Iowa or Syracuse) indicating your qualifications and desire for various types of assistantships. Other schools do not.
Some will attach offers of assistantships to offers of admission. Some will require to apply for them post-admission. Some will be in the middle -- admitting you without offer of assistantship, but working in the weeks following your acceptance to match you up with a job.
This kind of stuff always varies from program to program and is an important part of the conversation you need to have with the program director at the schools you've been admitted to and are considering attending.
@Dreux, thank you for the clarification! None of the schools I applied to requested this info upfront, but I always get nervous and fear I've forgotten something.
And fyi re: WashU, they don't get President's Day, or never have, so you could indeed hear back tomorrow :p
Thank you for the information. I'd read about the poetry notification, but wasn't sure where fiction stood in that regard.
I've been rejected by Michener (and I think Cornell) already, I'm hoping to get some early good news to bolster my faltering confidence in the coming 45-day notification period...
Man, my internet-writing has gotten really formal since I started putting together these applications.
Historical stuff would be appreciated. After I get a good idea of the past, I think it will be easy to move through the years towards the present.
Unrelated: to everyone, I am reading 'The Discovery of France' by Graham Robb (also did bios on Hugo and Rimbaud). It's pretty crazy. He's surveying the 'modern' history of France and how it became a 'nation' despite something like over 200 different languages. Uncharted, unmapped bits of the country. How France became an actual nation is kind of amazing. If you're somewhat of a francophile you might be into it.
Hard to find good sources for that stuff, and there are none I can remember really liking, but here's a good overview I Googled up:
http://www.hallman.org/indian/.www.html
It's an oldschool/funny looking website, but the info seems to be accurate.
As far as stuff I'd recommend, all of Christine Welsh's films (most of which were released by the National Film Board of Canada), and anything/everything by and about Bill Reid. You can also find a lot of great radio programs he hosted about indigenous culture, among other things, as he was a very influential host on CBC radio (Canada's equivalent of NPR, more or less).
I may be tipping a sacred cow here, but I've come to really dislike Raymond Carver after reading about how he mistreated his first wife.
I know all the cliches - don't confuse a writer with her/his bio, don't judge the work by the person, a flawed individual can produce great work, etc.
But after reading about that first marriage and his behavior (he lived off his first wife - she worked as a waitress, he wrote - then he left her high and dry for Tess Gallagher, never paid alimony, and managed to screw her out of money he'd promised her), I found myself rereading his fiction as the aestheticized bleakness of a self-pitying drunk, and the translation of his physically and mentally abusive relationship into the vague state of nature that so often holds his characters back. I lost all patience with the writer and feel like I have hung up the phone on him.
Well, have I gone off the reservation and joined the outraged burghers of moral uprightness? I wonder if maybe I have. In my defense, I am reading his bio as productive of his style, and revealing of his style's constructedness (where the style pretends towards a purely natural language). Also, I find the model of the self-centered male writer Carver and so many others pose very limiting and oppressive in this current time.
I wonder if there's some cultural blind spot for charismatic, abusive alcoholics in American literature. Perhaps that state reaches the apotheosis of our idea of individuality.
On another note, I think Carver's writing goes way downhill without Lish. It gets waaaay too sentimental and touchy-feely. I couldn't finish that version of What We Talk About (or whatever forgettable name he gave it) that was un-Lish-edited.
I think it's natural for everyone to hope their idols are also nice people. This is far from reality. From all accounts, Michael Jordan is the biggest jerk in the history of sports (well, a slight exaggeration there...). Petty, mean, vicious, bad sportsman, immature, ingrate, the ultra-competitor, etc. Yet, he's considered one of the (if not THE greatest) basketball players that ever lived. Some say it was this dark side of him that made him so great. I mean, do you really want to hang around someone who has to win ALL THE TIME? Who wants to win all the time? And who will taunt you for losing to him?
You can never know him, though. Not really. The man is dead and all that remains, beyond his work, is the words of other people. Not him. You don't hate him. You hate the words.
jesus, i don't know that i would have wanted to hang out with many of the writers i admire based on bios...well, i probably would, but most upstanding people wouldn't...but i think the same thing could be said about teachers, preachers, anyone...damn...i wonder why anyone hangs out with anyone else...we're all so screwed up!
Just got an email from Northern Michigan. I've been rejected for the MFA, but they are passing my app to the MA people for review.
What are your opinions on this? From reading last year's mailbags, I know this is a fairly regular-ish thing to happen. I'm upset about the rejection, but consoling myself with the idea that at least it's SOMEthing. Basically, I'm wondering if this is a legitimate thing to tell myself, or if this passing to the MA thing happens really frequently. (I hope that made sense.) Be honest- I can take it. :)
Hey all, I am a recent lurker, but this Carver discussion is bringing me out of my shell.
First of all, let's not confuse editors with "failed writers." If you look at music, some people were just born to be producers (Brian Eno, Nigel Godrich, M. Ward, CERTAINLY Kanye West). If you enjoy films, many were destined to direct (Martin Scorsese, Ingmar Bergman, Alfred Hitchcock, etc. etc.). It would be foolish to believe that editing is not actually an individual medium from the complex, disorienting process of writing, just as these aforementioned crafts are distinct from their igniting creative counterparts.
Second, (@ Jamie), if you are unable to separate the unflattering details of Raymond Carver's obviously f-ed up personal life and the subtle, trembling brilliance of a collection like "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love, then I feel a little bit sorry for you, and hope you can get past this blockage. After all, we writers are an imperfect lot, are we not? But I guess, to each his or her own.
In any case, nice to make contact with all of you. You seem like a bunch of really friendly people, and many congrats to all of you who have gotten some good news over the past week or so!
Uh, here's my list in poetry:
Iowa Michigan Vanderbilt Oregon UC Irvine Virginia NYU Houston UNCG U Washington-Seattle
For anyone who just looks for the pretty blue updates (or frightening blue updates) on TSE, Seth posted in the comments that the 2010 application responses have moved here.
I have to chime in before I go to sleep (at least I have tomorrow off, whoo hoo!)
If a reader fails to be interested in a writer because of his/her bio, then that's just the way it is. Reading is ultimately a subjective thing (hence the obsession with crappy books like Twilight, etc). I do the same thing when it comes to sports. My favorite baseball player is Rocco Baldelli (who? You are probably asking yourself). I think he's a pretty cool guy, but because of a medical condition he's not exactly a great player, in fact he's teamless at the moment. Alex Rodriguez, on the other hand, is a super douchebag and I don't care if he's the greatest player to ever play the game. Barf on him.
That being said, I really can't think of a writer that doesn't have a sordid past. Pretty much every great writer was either addicted to gambling, alcohol, sex, drugs, or themselves. I mean, don't even get me started on Ernest Hemingway. But, I like what I like and I just cast the author aside for a moment while I read. I'd venture to say that anyone and everyone you admire has something unlikeable about them. I read somewhere that Mother Theresa inflicted pain on people in her shelters because she thought they had to really suffer to find God. Don't ask me where I read that.
And I guess that brings me to my conclusion, we're all a little fucked up. Except me. I'm perfect.
Hello again, and congrats to all. Does anyone, by any chance know anything about the Oxford MSt program. I applied to a couple US school -- by chance and last minute, because I mainly wanted to go to Europe -- didn't get into the two US schools to date, but have been accepted to numerous UK schools, and now need info on Oxford's program (poetry). I know it is part-time, but aside from that, any words?
PS- Seth, this is my first comment to you ever, but I can't believe how hard it is to find your work online without being bombarded by people who hate for ridiculous reasons. I mean, would anyone put forward so much free time and receive what seems to be so little beside the satisfaction of helping others if that wasn't specifically what they were after -- manifesto aside (yet to read it, sorry, kinda, I get the scheme and agree, haha)
I don't think Jamie's reaction to what he learned about Carver is really all that surprising. I think if I really knew what made my favorite writers tick, I would cease to be fascinated with them.
You know the saying, "Don't take it apart to see how it works or it might never fit together again."
I agree. Whether we intellectually thinks it's right or wrong to bring the writer's personal life into our reading of their work, it doesn't make an ounce of difference regarding our engagement with it. Honestly, I'd prefer to keep myself in the dark about a writer's sordid personal history if it means still being able to enjoy their work objectively.
I guess I operate on the opposing end of that thought. I have a tendency to learn as much as I can about the writers whose work I love best, as it gives me enhanced context with which to read it. I suppose I just don't have a problem keeping the two realities distinct and yet reconciled. For instance, my favorite writer is Berryman, and he was certainly not an ideal human being.
That said, I don't think Jamie's reaction is incorrect or unbelievable at all, just kinda unfortunate. And I agree that if anyone wishing to appreciate good writing void of moral circumstance should probably avoid looking into the writer's personal life. It might lead to a bad place.
I'm always interested in an author's bio though because they are mostly very interesting people. All the talk about "Tender is the Night," for example, made me want to go pick it up a the library, but I had to read Fitzgerald's biography first. Very interesting man (Zelda might be a tad more interesting though). Reading the bio made me want to read the book more, and I must say, 50 pages into it, it's good :)
At the risk of seeming curmedgeonly, does it seem like there are just too many MFA programs? I live in Oregon and there are at least three programs I can think of off the top of my head - Oregon,OSU and PSU. I honestly worry that too many programs might end up devaluing the entire concept.
Actually having said that, I have never had a trouble appreciating a writer's work because of their personal history. Maybe because I expect every great writer to be a little fucked up?
And I like to keep up with politics, read books, give readings, listen to music, watch Wisco sports and the Winter Olympics, and occasionally masturbate.
And I like to talk to my friends and family from time to time also.
2,238 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 2001 – 2200 of 2238 Newer› Newest»Ashley Brooke. You're my new favourite person. Anybody who puts up: "pretend to be" "when I was 14" "gay history teacher" and "rap message boards" in one sentence is, quite simply, an interesting person. Now I really want to know some of the things you said.
Cratty,
Haha, I rationalized this by telling myself I was creating a character. His name was Alexei and he had a Queer as Folk icon and used to preface sentences with "My boyfriend said" or "I was with my boyfriend" in attempt to get a rise out of homophobic mainstream rap fans. I don't think I ever said anything too crazy, though, and I got bored quickly because I didn't know enough about rap to attempt to get into the historical implications about it. I remember asking "how can I get my students interested in history can I use rap?" or something like that and there some interesting answering.
You Catholic, Kay?
No Kaybay, don't do it! You're far too entertaining!
~V
I have a question for you Kaybay, COULD you give this blog up for Lent REALLY? I know I couldn't.
I am. I was thinking about giving up meat for Lent, which I'll still do. But I was contemplating giving the blog up for Lent. But I'm not sure if it would be a good or bad thing...
Oh Ashley, that's awesome. I'm saving that line for posterity. It's so detailed and quirky; it's like something Liz Lemon would say. "When I was 14 . . . " &heart;
Give up the meat! I have ~~~veggie recipes~~~ to share
Good question Coughdrop. I don't know if I could. Oh, the temptation!
You should totally troll. Now that Dreux's exposed himself as decent and (gasp!) extremely helpful, Patrick is just a loveable Irish rogue, my favourite MFA mentalist ever RealTalk has done a runner and the closest thing we currently have to a troll is someone who keeps popping up to talk about how they're practically on X and Y tip-top program, which isn't trolling (i know!), just bragging - er, i mean, just mad confidence and probably the damn truth although it's annoying (and i wish i were so lucky)...we need a troll! Some kind of absurd and cruel provocateur who we, in turn, can easily ridicule. Some kind of Cartman figure poking away at our sanity because they've already lost their own. Oh, trolls.
Step to it, or you get no ♥
Kaybay, i just cut and pasted. My ♥ is cheap & secondhand.
Also, yes, don't come round these parts for Lent; will be purifying. (Come as a troll).
Cratty,
I needed something to do! I wasn't very popular from 6th through 10th grade! :)
I sometimes wonder if this blog is making me too anxious. Do you guys think it's a good or bad thing to check this thing incessantly?
Dang . .. I failed :(
Kbay. Don't. I'm Catholic too. And doing the whole lent thing, in any form, sent me on the mother of all sinning sprees back in my late teens.
Ooooh, Eli, I love your suggestion! I could form some kind of alter ego. BayKay! The mean, old, warped housewife who hates literature and will go online only to call everyone here self-centered and self-righteous!
Cratty, that sounds intriguing. That would make a good short story. 40 days and 40 nights of mad teenage sin...
Tee Hee. Incidentally, it's why I'm not Catholic anymore. Well, not a practicing one - I still wield the title when it becomes strategically necessary.
Ashley,
Try being the only goth kid in a suburban, silicon valley high school with a student body of 200. It took me until junior year to adopt the sweater vest and become a full fledged member of the community : - )
Oh, for all those readers who are totally confused, I asked if I should give up this blog for Lent and then deleted it because I didn't know if bringing up something religious would make people uncomfortable. But alas, people read it before it disappeared :D
I guess I'll stick around ♥
Kaybay, bring BayKay on! She sounds like a feisty one. I'm sure she'll drive more than a few of us to some apoplectic keyboard-banging. And then you can do a Scooby-Doo reveal on April 15th. Brilliant!
QUICK! Erase all these posts so no one will figure out that Baykay is actually Kaybay! oh..whoops...
I can bring BayKay back by popular request. A few key indirect insults is all it takes, and I'm great at those.
Haha, Dreux, you know my weakness ;)
I don't enough email addresses to create a new account. Baykay's dead.
Ah! Get out of here with your vitriol, senior citizens! No place for you here among the adolescent and kittenish!
weak. Come on you guys, you have reeeeeeeal talk to compete with!
It is I, BayKay. I have hijacked KayBay's account and have come here to hate on all of you and your fuuuuunky assss frieeeeends. Baaaay Kaaaay keepin' it reeeeal. Go write in solitude you self-centered egoists! Youtubian kittens!
Hmm. That was unsuccessful.
Kaybay, yeah. Shame. Maybe spring her on us in the new Mailbag when all this is history.
Don't worry, if I get rejected everywhere, BayKay may make a very vitriolic return... ;)
I don't usually type LOL....but seriously, audible laughs have been achieved today. In the name of the father, and the son, and the holy BayKay, amen.
@Eli
I feel disillusioned. I did not know real talk was an actual song that was being reference in realtalks initial appearance. I feel empty inside. The original realtalk no longer seems as genius.
THE MAGIC IS GOOOOONE.
Hold up, hold up
Didn't I just give you money to go get yours hair, toes and nails done the other day, hmm
yeah your ass was smiling then
real talkkkkk
Kaybay, me too, i'm gonna go FULL TROLL once my rejections are in. I'm going to pounce on all you happy MFA bunnies with trolls of Cthulhian proportions.
Ho, ho, bitter, twisted ho.
Courtney, I know. I promised I'd stay away from here but I've been chuckling away @ all senior citizens & BayKay. I mean, with, not @. With.
Coughdrop, yep. Sorry. RealTalk. But c'mon, aren't you glad the provenance of realtalk happens to be R. Kelly, the greatest absurdist poet of the 21st century? No? Not even a little?
Give it another week. The trolls will multiply. We will have rejection trolls, and waiting trolls, and generally disgruntled trolls. Many, many trolls. I feel my hair changing to an unnatural hue as we speak. Is that a charm in my belly button?
Oh, you weren't talking about THOSE trolls...well...
Coughdrop, that bit was brilliant.
What they eat don't make us shit. REAL TALK!
I think it's time for me to watch Trapped in the Closet.
I think it's time for RealTalk to represent.
@Ashley--Nothing could have made my Saturday better than that little R Kelly nugget of gold. Real talk.
I'm glad you all enjoyed it as much as I did! The lyrics are just so subtle, you have to listen to get at his real message.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjVasqpfmKo
ps. i apologize to anybody who has subscribed to this because it no longer resembles the MFA blog in any way
Hi, All, I was waitlisted at Illinois and was just curious if anyone has insight about the size of waitlists generally --- are they typically longer or shorter than the number of spots available? I'm sure this info has been discussed before, but I can't find anything now that we're at over 2K posts per mailbag!
PS - BIG CONGRATS to all who have gotten news this week!!!
Check out the Yale video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGn3-RW8Ajk
Congrats Sara! I really think it depends on the school, though, so the list could be short or long. Maybe send a polite e-mail asking if they can let you know how far down the list you are. I think I remember folks doing this in years past and some were able to get more info that way.
&heart; - just wanted to try it.
also, congrats to cb and sara!
hmmmph. of course it didn't work for me. sigh. back to The United States of Tara.
Heart must be hearts! Plurals!
oh, oh!
♥ ♥ ♥
thank you AB. things would be so much prettier if i actually took the time to read instructions. ♥
Congrats to:
Lechatgris for CNF at Iowa. I missed your post somehow yesterday.
Old Poet for your waitlist.
CB for Oregon State.
Laura for George Mason.
And Sara for your waitlist at Illinois.
Also, thanks to Madeline for posting that link about Diaz. That guy is so awesome. What a great essay.
@Sarah
What genre were you waitlisted in at Illinois???
I remember reading unsubstantiated rumors (probably here) that Illinois was only going to accept 2(!) poetry applicants this year. That's CRAZY competitive. (I'm not sure if the same would be true of other genres.)
Now...if those rumors are true, I'm not sure if that would mean a longer or shorter waitlist.
That Yale thing is nuts. They must all be completely addled by prozac. Or they're Thunderbirds puppets. Utterly terrifying, either way. (Unless it's tongue-in-cheek, in which case the glossy freaky Yalies are just about forgiven).
Sam, congratulations on Syracuse, by the way. That's a huge deal. You must be bloody awesome!
Oh my god, How did I miss that Yale link? That's intense! Thanks MFAGuy. Now I'm applying to redo my undergrad instead.
@ Wandering Tree
What high school did you go to?
I know the place looks awesome, and decidely camp. I read about the video in the New Yorker:
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2010/02/15/100215ta_talk_mcgrath
Eli,
OMG so jealous about ATP. Why am I so broke??? Do you by any chance need a date to the show...?
@Sam, I mean Cornell! Same sentiments apply though, innit.
Morgan - I'm going to the Pavement-curated UK festival, so you'd have to save big bucks to come over here & join the Malkmusian fan-out...but surely you can scrimp and save to make it to one of these babies instead:
http://atpfestival.com
Jim Jarmusch guest-curating. Nice.
Cate,
I went to H.S. here:
http://www.pinewood.edu/page.cfm?p=2
Eli,
Saw that Jarmusch is curating! If I don't get in anywhere and I'm still bumming around NYC in Sept, my plan is to go seduce Iggy Pop.
Congrats to all who have been accepted and/or waitlisted! It's really exciting to hear of these things, even if they aren't mine.
Morgan,
I went to school (and was actually friends) with the son of James Williamson (of Iggy and the Stooges). Although at the time no one really knew who he was and he hadn't played the guitar in like over 20 yrs (he was an executive at Sony). But it looks like he'll be touring again according to the papers. Perhaps we can work together to seduce Iggy? haha
WT--
LET'S DO IT. I'm so down. I'll draft a rough plan and get back to you sooner than you can saw Iowa.
I'm finishing my undergrad at the University of Michigan right now--I seriously, no lie, applied because I knew Iggy had grown up here in the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti area. I give tours and info sessions to prospective students, and when I tell them I'm out of state (from Kentucky), they usually ask why I'm at UM. I sometimes say "Iggy Pop" and leave it at that. :)
fantastic, Jessie. I should have added that to my UM SOP.
@ Old Poet - I was waitlisted for fiction. Don't know how many spots they have to offer in poetry or fiction, but their letter said there were 200 applicants (again, unclear what the genre breakdown is there). Definitely curious about how the waitlist process works, so maybe sending an email in March would be helpful.
PS - thanks @ Ashley Brooke for the email idea!
I have to work tonight -- until noon tomorrow. Ugh! And everybody here is in a baaaad mood. So I'm really missing Reeeel Taaaalk and Seth's Manifesto!
Slow board tonight. I guess everybody's got a more exciting Saturday night than I do! Oh well, back to Mad Men.
"I see the notion of talent as quite irrelevant. I see instead perseverance, application, industry . . . will, will, will, desire, desire, desire."
-Gordon Lish
R.I.P. Lucille Clifton (June 27, 1936 – February 13, 2010)
May she rest in peace as we mourn her today.
NM
Not Lucille! :'(
Melv wrote:
"I see the notion of talent as quite irrelevant. I see instead perseverance, application, industry . . . will, will, will, desire, desire, desire..."
-Gordon Lish
I think part of that quote is missing: "..and the willingness to let your editor completely alter your story in his own self-interest!"
(This was just joke. Raymond Carver was an amazing writer.)
Yeah, Gordon Lish can stuff it. I hope nobody ever edits my work that heavily. I also strongly disagree that "talent is irrelevant." Sounds like some garbage quote that you'd find on a poster in front of a picture of the beach and a basketball player hanging on a hoop.
No offense to whoever posted it. I agree that hard work is important.
Gordon Lish is a genius. I've read the unedited versions of the stories that Lish reworked, and while they're quite different, both versions are equally incredible.
Lish may have been a pretty brash figure and very, very hard to deal with (one of my mentors happens to have a lot of crazy Gordon Lish stories because they were colleagues), but he was a talented editor who had a real eye for talent. He MADE a lot of great writers -- writers we love and who we might never have heard of if Lish hadn't put them in his catapult.
Hey everybody, how's it hanging today? Any good news?
... if Lish was such a genius, why didn't he write stories himself that were immortal? it's always easier to subtract from something that's already there than to create something brand new. I suspect if you pulled literary editors into a confession booth and drilled them, many of them would admit they were failed writers.
♥ Happy Valentine's Day!
Same to you! ♥ No good news, though :(
None here either, but I had to try that ♥
Maybe this week . . .
@Vivian
While I have no doubt that many editors once had dreams of writing, the two are completely different skill sets. I know an awful lot of good writers who can't edit and vice versa. Writing is about passion and innovation and empathy. Editing is about rules, about clarity, about strategy. Obviously, editors don't have much of a job without writers, but there's a reason writers always thank their editors in books too, and it's not just to be polite. It's a real, important team that creates a lasting document.
As a contracted writer with an editor, I can say that it is a hugely collaborative process, and you better believe I'll be thanking my editor. That said, a writer doesn't stand a chance of even getting to the point of having a sale and a pub team without a strong internal editor, too.
Of the editors I know, some are also successful writers, and some have simply decided that their strengths lie more in the ability to take potential and rein it in, to strengthen others' stories. That's not to say they are failed writers, they've simply followed their strengths, the way an art director can also design but has an eye for perfecting and overseeing and embraces that.
Sh and Dreux,
I agree with your sentiments completely. Lish was a genius and definitely helped a lot of writers breakthrough and reach their full potential. Mitzi Angel is another editor that a lot of writers thank for helping make their stories really shine. While some agents and editors (and I'll add folks like publicists/event managers/designers) may have had dreams of writing (or creating something of their own), you can't deny that these professions are invaluable to writers. Writing is one thing but publishing (and polishing to a finish) and getting ones work out there is something else entirely and many writers just don't have those skill sets ( or don't care to acquire them). But with that said, large publishing houses don't have the manpower they did even 10 years ago and small publishing houses are filled with good intentions and a lot of vision but are often limited by actual resources. If all a writer wants to do these days is write and not do their best to edit, market/publicize, learn how to do some basic programming, and in a sense become a writer/businessperson, even an extraordinary book might be left in the dust (and I'm sure this happens more than we think).
WT, I agree COMPLETELY with this statement:
"If all a writer wants to do these days is write and not do their best to edit, market/publicize, learn how to do some basic programming, and in a sense become a writer/businessperson, even an extraordinary book might be left in the dust (and I'm sure this happens more than we think)."
What bothers me is when a writer is unwilling to acquire those skills, and expects to reap the benefits of having them.
Just been selected for a Virginia Tech interview!
Congratulations, MFAguy!
MFAGuy, Congratulations and good luck!
That's great, MFA Guy! I'm glad to know that they do those things in batches!
I am seriously so glad to hear that people are getting accepted/receiving good news after the initial acceptances went out. Although I'm sure some schools are done with acceptances (Syracuse), it does keep me a little more hopeful about the others.
Congrats, MFA Guy!
Hey thanks,
at first I thought the email was spam from Virgin Atlantic!
Haha.
Congrats, MFAGuy!
I have another GNE (Good News Email). I've been selected for an interview with Virginia Tech. When I first read that email, I was thinking to myself, "No, that can't be right because I read on the MFA Blog that Virginia Tech -- like Indiana, Cornell, Wisconsin, Alabama, Vanderbilt -- was done with all their selections." I had all but given up on VT until today.
Lesson to be learned: You're not rejected until you get the official rejection notice. So, everyone, there is hope.
So, based on the various GNE's I've gotten, I may be accepted to three schools, unless:
(1) I bomb the VT interview,
(2) don't send in the missing TA app. to School #2, or
(3) fail the background check for School #3.
Jesus Almighty! And I thought I made a mistake in submitting the particular writing samples that I did.
Yay MFAguy!
I agree with Kaybay that its nice to hear people getting good news after the initial letting in! Just goes to prove that it aint over til its over!
In other news, I have managed to get my car stuck in the snow for the second time in a week. I am having a rough day.
and YAY Woon! I think we must have posted at the same time. Oh oh and ♥ ♥ ♥
I was very disappointed that Alice Munro -- famous Canadian author -- was not selected as one of the eight flag/banner bearers at the Vancouver Olympics. I mean, Donald Sutherland!?! Anne Murray!?!?! Come on...
congratulations, mfaguy and woon!
Congrats, MFA Guy!
Virginia Tech works on a Sunday!?! Wow, they must really be busy.
I know here in California, university employees don't work on Fridays because of the budget crisis. (No...I'm not a university employee.)
Woon, but Alabama apparently wasn't done with their selections! (Trilbe getting a poetry admit WEEKS after the first hit!).
I refuse to believe Vandy is done yet :p
I really do think most schools accept in batches. I don't know how they do (or why), but it obviously appears that that's how they do it. Maybe they have school fellowships for those notified first (FSU does that), the committee agreed emphatically on a few, but needs to discuss others for whatever reason, etc. I wouldn't even be surprised if they have groups of samples that they read and draw a certain amount of acceptances from each one, almost like a "rolling acceptance" kind of thing. Who knows!!!!
Kaybay, I've actually thought a lot about the rolling one, maybe because it's the one that's most flattering to applicants lol. Whatever the reason, it does seem that the YES's come in batches.
Woon,
I somehow don't see Alice Munro being interested in carrying the Olympic torch. Most liberal Victorians (and she is from Victoria) are NDP members, and the NDP's had some pretty harsh things to say about the Vancouver olympics, which are essentially taking place on stolen land with money that was taken from BC taxpayers in a manner that closely resembles highway robbery after the city and provincial governments failed to set accurate budgets or to find proper insurers for cost overruns. My guess is Munro would have turned down an opportunity to be involved with the ceremonies.
Forgive me if anyone's posted this already... I nose around the Chronicle sometimes, and saw this 'un:
http://chronicle.com/article/Confessions-of-an-Accidental/63882/
Dreux, If the content of your post is true, then I would tend to agree. But boy oh boy, wouldn't she look great in a White Winter parka while bearing the flag?
(I could be wrong but I think we're all sitting on stolen land.)
I've never actually seen or heard of any incidence of "highway robbery." What is it and does it ever happen in real life?
Also, I've never seen anyone "laugh all the way to the bank."
Congratulations, Woon!
Do we need any additional evidence that we shouldn't assume we are out when we aren't among those first notified? I don't think so.
Congrats, Woon & MFAGuy!
Happy Valentine's Day, all. And for those who hate V-Day, feel free to celebrate Arizona Statehood Day!
Ashley, I think the point of quote is that, no matter how talented you think you are, there's a million more writers out there who are (at least) as equally talented as you, and what separates one from the other is how much you want it, how much you will sacrifice, and how much time you spend perfecting your craft. I mean, if writing success was gauged by how much time someone wasted everyday posting all of their thoughts and opinions on this blog, you'd have a Pulitzer by now.
Woon,
BC is REALLY stolen land. And by that I mean it was stolen very recently. You have to keep in mind that compared to most of the US and Canada, BC is a very recently settled area, so there are a lot of people still alive who can remember the campaign of displacement waged against their indigenous cultures. Some indigenous cultures in BC didn't even experience first contact with white folks until just around the beginning of the 20th century. Not to mention there's an even fresher/more recent legacy of cultural genocide there. I.E. there are people as young as their late 30s who remember being taken from their families and sent to boarding schools which were pretty much concentration camps run by the church.
Throw in the BC Olympics tasteless penchant for misappropriating indigenous cultural images, and you've got a total cultural clusterfuck. Not to mention the irony that much of the visual material they've misappropriated for the olympics is Inuit and BC is not an Inuit homeland.
But if you're a big Munro fan, you should visit Victoria and go to her ex-husband's bookstore (Munro's Book), among other Munro landmarks.
I did the first two years of my BFA in Victoria and she's definitely pretty omnipresent in the literary community there. And I did see her in public once, but decided not to bug her.
Melv,
I disagree that that was the point of the quote - the idea that talent is "irrelevant" is not the same as talent being a prerequisite. I would argue that the degree to which Gordon Lish has "edited" (http://www.newyorker.com/online/2007/12/24/071224on_onlineonly_carver) gives meaning to his quote that is basically: You don't really need talent, the editors will fix it all up for you, you just need to have drive drive drive. Not to mention that the generic quote of hard work being all you need is a tired and unrealistic cliche. It is about as nonsensical as saying all you need is ability.
I also don't appreciate your belittling comment about my activity or time spent on this blog, but I'm going to assume I'm misreading your tone since this is just the internet.
I haven't been keeping up, and I can't seem to find a search function for these comments, so forgive me if this is an obvious question, but, it seems as if fiction applicants have heard back from vanderbilt?
Ashley,
At least 1 person has. But there's no indication that they've notified all 3 acceptances or the 1 or 2 people who might make the waitlist.
Ashley,
Fiction acceptances were reported for Vanderbilt this past week. But that doesn't mean they've all gone out so don't lose hope yet!
@Ashley
One person said they heard I think but then I think someone else called Vandy and Vandy said they weren't done informing yet? I'm not sure.
Dreux,
Can you direct me to some reading on BC history regarding indigenous cultures?
thanks everyone! That was fast. Glad I'm not the only person obsessing on a sunday even though there's no mail to worry over today.
And, on a side note, happy valentines!
I'm just curious, because it hasn't been mentioned much--who applied to Arizona State this year? I did (duh!) in both fiction and poetry, and they're one of my most anticipated. Wondering who else is in that boat?
Jason J,
How contemporary? Historical stuff about contact and early colonization and so forth? Or more recent stuff involving land claims and lawsuits over residential school issues?
You kinda have to reach into some pretty dubiously-written anthropological sources for the more historical information, though that's thankfully changing as more indigenous historians begin to explore it. There's definitely a wealth of stuff about the more recent issues, though.
Either way, I'd be happy to point you to a good starting point, so just tell me what you're most interested in.
Hi all,
I heard WUSTL will still be notifying on Monday and Tuesday. Seems surprising since their first fiction notification was reported on 2/10 and I think they only accept about 5 applicants, but I called, and that's what they reported. So, still a little room for hope!
Congratulations on all the acceptances! Best of luck to the rest!
good luck to WUSTL applicants! I'm here for my undergrad. It's a snowy, dull day here in St. Louis, but the coffee is hot and the library is full of fluffy chairs. Not a bad place to be.
@sh - I applied to Arizona State for fiction. Right there with you. (Along with all the other schools I'm waiting for with fingers firmly crossed!)
I'm having difficulty signing onto Austin@UT. Has anyone else had trouble with the logon/password? I can't tell if it won't accept my password or if there's just a tech glitch. Any suggestions?
Best of luck to all of you.
@Annie
I had trouble for awhile because I realized I was putting in my username for the application rather than the EID username. For some insanely stupid reason, they are different. I'd go through all your emails and make sure you're using the correct name!
Hey,
Thanks Woon and others.
Vtech's program (if I get in or waitlisted) is pretty intense. You take 4 classes a semester (most MFAs seem to be 3) as well as the later teaching responsibilities.
I think last year Vandy had a waitlist of 7 (per genre) I'm not sure if they changed things up this year.
Best.
@ coughdrop
I thought about that, but it looks like the problem is more with the password than the logon. I've got the UTEID, which I saved in a word doc. Don't know. Feel like I'm stuck in a citrix system.
@Annie
is it your first time signing on?? They gave me a temporary password and I had to change it. If not, I don't have any ideas sorry! :( I know how frustrating that must be!
Has anyone here applied to Temple? I understand that it's a new program, though TSE has historical data on response times for fiction.
Nevertheless, that's an early response time for fiction... I presume, with this year's flood of applications, that Temple is not expected to notify as early as 2/9?
Great to hear that about WashU! And yes, I called Vandy and they said they weren't done. Also, re: WashU, last year, from what I've gleaned from TSE and P&W, they had acceptances on the 10th, then on the 20th, so they spread out.
Moral: there is hope!
@Tyler
I applied to Temple (for poetry). I got a call last week letting me know I was in, but the person I called said the phone call was an impromptu thing and that official responses were forthcoming. I expect you'll hear soon.
excellent news about WUSTL. I live not too far from St. Louis. I love that city, and the school is gorgeous. Good luck to all applicants and acceptances there.
I also applied to Arizona State for fiction.
I've been biting my nails on Kansas. We're almost a week past their notification date from last year. I'm sure they had a huge increase in applicants, but it doesn't alleviate the suspense! Any word on when they'll start contacting people?
@Tyler
Re: the newness of Temple's program
Temple has had an MA in Creative Writing for a number of years. They're hoping to transition to an MFA this fall (Temple fully expects to get approval to change to an MFA, but last I heard, the official approval hadn't gone through yet).
I didn't apply to Temple because I'm looking for a geographic change (but I do love Philly and hope to move back here someday), but I know a number of people who've gone through the MA in Creative Writing program and they all speak highly of it.
@YARebels
I'm glad they spread out acceptances. Howevs, makes the process so much more grueling and mysterious!! Some day I'd love to learn the method behind the tiered notification madness.
Any insight?
@Danielle, no insight here! Just taking solace that last year first YES was on the 10th, and then another person announced a YES on the 20th of Feb over at P&W (this is what neurotic writers do to keep from biting off ALL their fingernails :p)
I think kaybay was speculating on the reasoning, too. My thoughts: It's madness! And CRUEL.
Caleb,
Kansas sent an e-mail in December that said they would be notifying the second week on February. Since that has pretty much passed, I assume that they are just a bit behind. This notification date only applies to applicants who had all materials in by Dec 31st, though, as they also have another deadline later for applicants who aren't applying to funding. It's always possible that they notified last week and we didn't hear because the lucky people aren't active on the blog, but I'm hoping the news is yet to go out!
CRUEL-YES! I'm still shocked so many schools have started notifying so early. With app. number so high, I sorta figured for later decisions. These committees must have implemented some finely-tuned reading strategies by now. Pretty fascinating!
@Danielle what's your list? I'm just GLAD they're doing it early. I cringe at the thought of waiting until MARCH for the rest of my answers :\ I just keep mumbling to myself "I should have applied to more schools..." ;p
Oh, I should also say I went to WashU for undergrad, and did a minor in Writing, and they don't seem to like taking those students back into grad school, so chances are SLIM, but it's a GORGEOUS school/area, fwiw.
@YARebels
I'm ashamed to confess my list, honestly. It's so out of balance, it's rather laughable. But I'm already in the MFA program at Portland State, so I figured I'd aim high to make it worth my while to leave mid-program. So I applied to:
Virginia
WashU
Iowa
I know, I know. Absurd, right? I wanted to apply to several more, and I'm kicking myself, too.
What's your list?
@YARebels,
WashU is actually my dream school. Plus, I have family in St. Louis. You're so lucky to have studied there!! I'm surprised they don't get more applicants, although I suspect this year the number was pretty high.
@Danielle I had a major fatalistic streak and decided to only apply to my top choices lol, so I have no backup, but my list is:
-Vanderbilt
-WashU
-Michigan
-Cornell
-Brown
-Columbia
-NYU
So far...no word.
@Danielle
It's a wonderful school!!! Beat of luck!
@YARebels when did you attend WashU? I'm just finishing up my undergrad with a writing minor. I didn't apply here for the MFA but I really will miss St. Louis and WashU campus in general! Not to mention the St. Louis restaurants... I live near clayton and the eating is incredible here.
@Ashley Just graduated last May! Took a year off to focus on my writing professional, which I'm thankful about because doing edits on deadline during school would have been murder. Loved it, though! And already missing school :) My major was in Communication Design, what about you?
@YARebels tell me about it. I realized about halfway through the applying process that a year off would have saved my sanity. Oh well, live and learn.
I'm majoring in history- I'm actually at Olin as we speak (level a where the good tables are) working on my senior thesis. Or, rather, pretending to work, and blog-surfing instead.
@Ashley Haha yeah, it's been nice, but I miss Olin and Forest Park and even the art school studios where I lost many, many, many nights' sleep :p
~V
Just wanted to take a minute to say how much I appreciate the informal quality of dialogue here. Popped over to the Speakeasy, and aside from those of you who post both places, was both laughing and indignant simultaneously. Apparently this blog is an anxiety-ridden negative environment... and the Speakeasy seems to be populated with personality profiles straight out of the Hipster's Handbook. :)
Re: Lish and editors
I don't think anyone would discount the service that editors provide. They are a huge benefit to writers.
However, Lish's comment can be seen as a little insulting to writers because of his reputation as an editor. Personally, I like Lish, but it's almost as though he's saying he can make anyone great as long as they're willing to work with him.
What if Carver came out and said, "I see the notion of outside influence as irrelevant. All I see is the writer's talent and ambition. Dream, dream, dream." That would be a little insulting to a group of editors, no?
Congrats to Woon and MFA guy on their VTech interviews! Good luck, guys.
@YARebels
I will definitely miss it in retrospect, when I can think past midterms and thesis. Good luck with your applications!
-Ashley
A question regarding programs that offer partial funding:
If a program offers partial funding in the form of assistantships (let's say 70% of MFAers get teaching or tutoring gigs), do they tend to divide that evenly among genres? For example, 3 fiction writers means 3 poets? Just curious.
And congrats to MFAguy and Woon!
Laura,
Whether you're competing only with other poets, or also with the fiction writers, or even with the PhD students for those assistantships depends on the school/program you attend.
Well this is going to sound ignorant...
Do you have to apply specifically for TAships etc. in advance, or can it sometimes be something the program works with you to figure out after acceptance?
@Danielle,
What don't you like about Portland State?
YARebels,
Again, depends on the program. Some require you to submit additional application materials (a la Iowa or Syracuse) indicating your qualifications and desire for various types of assistantships. Other schools do not.
Some will attach offers of assistantships to offers of admission. Some will require to apply for them post-admission. Some will be in the middle -- admitting you without offer of assistantship, but working in the weeks following your acceptance to match you up with a job.
This kind of stuff always varies from program to program and is an important part of the conversation you need to have with the program director at the schools you've been admitted to and are considering attending.
@Dreux, thank you for the clarification! None of the schools I applied to requested this info upfront, but I always get nervous and fear I've forgotten something.
And fyi re: WashU, they don't get President's Day, or never have, so you could indeed hear back tomorrow :p
@Sh - Also an Arizona State applicant here.
Hey, Woon and MFAguy, nice going! congrats! :0)
@Mike and philly,
Thank you for the information. I'd read about the poetry notification, but wasn't sure where fiction stood in that regard.
I've been rejected by Michener (and I think Cornell) already, I'm hoping to get some early good news to bolster my faltering confidence in the coming 45-day notification period...
Man, my internet-writing has gotten really formal since I started putting together these applications.
Dreux,
Historical stuff would be appreciated. After I get a good idea of the past, I think it will be easy to move through the years towards the present.
Unrelated: to everyone, I am reading 'The Discovery of France' by Graham Robb (also did bios on Hugo and Rimbaud). It's pretty crazy. He's surveying the 'modern' history of France and how it became a 'nation' despite something like over 200 different languages. Uncharted, unmapped bits of the country. How France became an actual nation is kind of amazing. If you're somewhat of a francophile you might be into it.
Jason J,
Hard to find good sources for that stuff, and there are none I can remember really liking, but here's a good overview I Googled up:
http://www.hallman.org/indian/.www.html
It's an oldschool/funny looking website, but the info seems to be accurate.
As far as stuff I'd recommend, all of Christine Welsh's films (most of which were released by the National Film Board of Canada), and anything/everything by and about Bill Reid. You can also find a lot of great radio programs he hosted about indigenous culture, among other things, as he was a very influential host on CBC radio (Canada's equivalent of NPR, more or less).
A great book about him is "Bill Reid and Beyond."
Thank you joban.
For whoever who was asking about Arizona State:
Fiction Applicant here.
I may be tipping a sacred cow here, but I've come to really dislike Raymond Carver after reading about how he mistreated his first wife.
I know all the cliches - don't confuse a writer with her/his bio, don't judge the work by the person, a flawed individual can produce great work, etc.
But after reading about that first marriage and his behavior (he lived off his first wife - she worked as a waitress, he wrote - then he left her high and dry for Tess Gallagher, never paid alimony, and managed to screw her out of money he'd promised her), I found myself rereading his fiction as the aestheticized bleakness of a self-pitying drunk, and the translation of his physically and mentally abusive relationship into the vague state of nature that so often holds his characters back. I lost all patience with the writer and feel like I have hung up the phone on him.
Well, have I gone off the reservation and joined the outraged burghers of moral uprightness? I wonder if maybe I have. In my defense, I am reading his bio as productive of his style, and revealing of his style's constructedness (where the style pretends towards a purely natural language). Also, I find the model of the self-centered male writer Carver and so many others pose very limiting and oppressive in this current time.
I wonder if there's some cultural blind spot for charismatic, abusive alcoholics in American literature. Perhaps that state reaches the apotheosis of our idea of individuality.
On another note, I think Carver's writing goes way downhill without Lish. It gets waaaay too sentimental and touchy-feely. I couldn't finish that version of What We Talk About (or whatever forgettable name he gave it) that was un-Lish-edited.
I think it's natural for everyone to hope their idols are also nice people. This is far from reality. From all accounts, Michael Jordan is the biggest jerk in the history of sports (well, a slight exaggeration there...). Petty, mean, vicious, bad sportsman, immature, ingrate, the ultra-competitor, etc. Yet, he's considered one of the (if not THE greatest) basketball players that ever lived. Some say it was this dark side of him that made him so great. I mean, do you really want to hang around someone who has to win ALL THE TIME? Who wants to win all the time? And who will taunt you for losing to him?
@Jamie
You can never know him, though. Not really. The man is dead and all that remains, beyond his work, is the words of other people. Not him. You don't hate him. You hate the words.
jesus, i don't know that i would have wanted to hang out with many of the writers i admire based on bios...well, i probably would, but most upstanding people wouldn't...but i think the same thing could be said about teachers, preachers, anyone...damn...i wonder why anyone hangs out with anyone else...we're all so screwed up!
I agree with LAswede. Everyone is neurotic. It's a matter of finding compatible neuroses.
Just got an email from Northern Michigan. I've been rejected for the MFA, but they are passing my app to the MA people for review.
What are your opinions on this? From reading last year's mailbags, I know this is a fairly regular-ish thing to happen. I'm upset about the rejection, but consoling myself with the idea that at least it's SOMEthing. Basically, I'm wondering if this is a legitimate thing to tell myself, or if this passing to the MA thing happens really frequently. (I hope that made sense.) Be honest- I can take it. :)
Hey all, I am a recent lurker, but this Carver discussion is bringing me out of my shell.
First of all, let's not confuse editors with "failed writers." If you look at music, some people were just born to be producers (Brian Eno, Nigel Godrich, M. Ward, CERTAINLY Kanye West). If you enjoy films, many were destined to direct (Martin Scorsese, Ingmar Bergman, Alfred Hitchcock, etc. etc.). It would be foolish to believe that editing is not actually an individual medium from the complex, disorienting process of writing, just as these aforementioned crafts are distinct from their igniting creative counterparts.
Second, (@ Jamie), if you are unable to separate the unflattering details of Raymond Carver's obviously f-ed up personal life and the subtle, trembling brilliance of a collection like "What We Talk About When We Talk About Love, then I feel a little bit sorry for you, and hope you can get past this blockage. After all, we writers are an imperfect lot, are we not? But I guess, to each his or her own.
In any case, nice to make contact with all of you. You seem like a bunch of really friendly people, and many congrats to all of you who have gotten some good news over the past week or so!
Uh, here's my list in poetry:
Iowa
Michigan
Vanderbilt
Oregon
UC Irvine
Virginia
NYU
Houston
UNCG
U Washington-Seattle
Kyle
For anyone who just looks for the pretty blue updates (or frightening blue updates) on TSE, Seth posted in the comments that the 2010 application responses have moved here.
I think it's really confusing/misleading/stressful to only show the first YES's over there!!
Seth,
Is there a reason you don't post the number of known acceptances for each date on the TSE?
I have to chime in before I go to sleep (at least I have tomorrow off, whoo hoo!)
If a reader fails to be interested in a writer because of his/her bio, then that's just the way it is. Reading is ultimately a subjective thing (hence the obsession with crappy books like Twilight, etc). I do the same thing when it comes to sports. My favorite baseball player is Rocco Baldelli (who? You are probably asking yourself). I think he's a pretty cool guy, but because of a medical condition he's not exactly a great player, in fact he's teamless at the moment. Alex Rodriguez, on the other hand, is a super douchebag and I don't care if he's the greatest player to ever play the game. Barf on him.
That being said, I really can't think of a writer that doesn't have a sordid past. Pretty much every great writer was either addicted to gambling, alcohol, sex, drugs, or themselves. I mean, don't even get me started on Ernest Hemingway. But, I like what I like and I just cast the author aside for a moment while I read. I'd venture to say that anyone and everyone you admire has something unlikeable about them. I read somewhere that Mother Theresa inflicted pain on people in her shelters because she thought they had to really suffer to find God. Don't ask me where I read that.
And I guess that brings me to my conclusion, we're all a little fucked up. Except me. I'm perfect.
Hello again, and congrats to all. Does anyone, by any chance know anything about the Oxford MSt program. I applied to a couple US school -- by chance and last minute, because I mainly wanted to go to Europe -- didn't get into the two US schools to date, but have been accepted to numerous UK schools, and now need info on Oxford's program (poetry). I know it is part-time, but aside from that, any words?
PS- Seth, this is my first comment to you ever, but I can't believe how hard it is to find your work online without being bombarded by people who hate for ridiculous reasons. I mean, would anyone put forward so much free time and receive what seems to be so little beside the satisfaction of helping others if that wasn't specifically what they were after -- manifesto aside (yet to read it, sorry, kinda, I get the scheme and agree, haha)
I don't think Jamie's reaction to what he learned about Carver is really all that surprising. I think if I really knew what made my favorite writers tick, I would cease to be fascinated with them.
You know the saying, "Don't take it apart to see how it works or it might never fit together again."
Kinda like that.
Kaybay
I agree. Whether we intellectually thinks it's right or wrong to bring the writer's personal life into our reading of their work, it doesn't make an ounce of difference regarding our engagement with it. Honestly, I'd prefer to keep myself in the dark about a writer's sordid personal history if it means still being able to enjoy their work objectively.
I guess I operate on the opposing end of that thought. I have a tendency to learn as much as I can about the writers whose work I love best, as it gives me enhanced context with which to read it. I suppose I just don't have a problem keeping the two realities distinct and yet reconciled. For instance, my favorite writer is Berryman, and he was certainly not an ideal human being.
That said, I don't think Jamie's reaction is incorrect or unbelievable at all, just kinda unfortunate. And I agree that if anyone wishing to appreciate good writing void of moral circumstance should probably avoid looking into the writer's personal life. It might lead to a bad place.
I'm always interested in an author's bio though because they are mostly very interesting people. All the talk about "Tender is the Night," for example, made me want to go pick it up a the library, but I had to read Fitzgerald's biography first. Very interesting man (Zelda might be a tad more interesting though). Reading the bio made me want to read the book more, and I must say, 50 pages into it, it's good :)
At the risk of seeming curmedgeonly, does it seem like there are just too many MFA programs? I live in Oregon and there are at least three programs I can think of off the top of my head - Oregon,OSU and PSU. I honestly worry that too many programs might end up devaluing the entire concept.
Art haha I was going to say does it seem that there are too few slots?? lol.
Actually having said that, I have never had a trouble appreciating a writer's work because of their personal history. Maybe because I expect every great writer to be a little fucked up?
Same here Tim, and in kind of a sad way it almost lets me down when they are not
You could always console yourselves that even if they keep it on the DL, most authors are messed up. At least a little.
Tim (and YARebels),
Yes, there's a reason it's done this way:
There are only 24 hours in the day.
And I'm trying to complete a Ph.D. program.
And I'm trying to run a business.
And I'm a working poet.
And I have a part-time job for the University.
And I have freelance articles to work on.
And I like to keep up with politics, read books, give readings, listen to music, watch Wisco sports and the Winter Olympics, and occasionally masturbate.
And I like to talk to my friends and family from time to time also.
Best of luck,
Seth
Seth, TMI ;)
Heh, I figured there was a reasonable explanation :p
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