Tuesday, April 13, 2010

New Mailbag, Tuesday, April 13, 2010 Plus some links.

Time for a new official mailbag, dontcha think?

Also, here are some links, just 'coz.

Seth's Open Letter To Poets Who Hate the Creative Writing MFA

Jim Shepard on the art of close reading. Good prep for all those heading into programs next fall, and essential advice for any writer.

April, by Louise Glück. Yes, it's bleak. But great. Balm to those applying again next year, or does it just inflame you? Responses in the comments, please.

761 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   601 – 761 of 761
sharste said...

Just called the New School -- they said my application just went under review and it would be another two weeks to a month before they notify me... are you kidding me?

Unknown said...

Hi Seth,

Thanks for your comments, again. I'm sorry I can't remember where I read this, more than likely it was on this site, but a few years ago (i think 2004 or 2005) Columbia's MFA applicant numbers were about 600, and they select about 60, so even my basic math skills allow me to calculate that as 10%. Following your logic, if schools' applicants #'s go up as funding increases, which Columbia's has at least marginally in the years since, and since this year everyone and their mother and cousin applied to MFA program,s i would expect even more than 600 applicants applied this year--i don't think that's an unreasonable estimate to make, especially since you and no one else has actual #s of the applicant class this year. i think it's very fair to say columbia still has a less than 10% rate. that's my perception of it as a candidate, and i think that's fair to post since your entire ranking system is based on candidate's perceptions.

Somewhere else I read on here that someone was attending a small school in Idaho, I think, that accepted 4 or 5 students out of 60 or 70 that applied--hey, that school is also really selective-but i don't think that puts it on par with other schools of similar selectivity ratings, or makes it competitive to those schools in terms of its value (sorry i can't remember who or where that was, and it's not a knock on that program, as we all know it's subjective to evaluate what program best suits you, but that doesn't mean that those 5 admits are more qualified than 60 ppl admitted to a "less selective" program.)

anyway, i too am bored of this debate, but since we've come to an end of the MFA app process, i've just noticed how since i've made my interest in columbia apparent here (applied, did not get in, will be reapplying despite a competitive acceptance elsewhere), i've felt the board gets kind of clicque-ish and doesn't *really* support everyone's MFA interests, which i think is sad since this has been such a great source of info for other schools.

anyway, i'll prob be back next year, and again, congrats to everyone making a decision!

Jillian Liota said...

I have a question for anyone who is moving a far (or semi-far) distance from home AND who is bringing a partner/friend/etc with them for the move...

What is your strategy?
How will it work?
Is anyone else freaking out about their other person not being able to find work or maybe not finding somewhere to live?

Any advice would be amazing.

Thanks!

threes said...

@ Jillian Lauren

I'm assuming if a partnerperson is moving some distance with/for you you'll be living with them? (but you know what they say about assuming ...)

If you're going to GMU, the DC metro area has much lower unemployment than the rest of the country (though obviously your partnerperson's field/profession will be a factor). And there are plenty of places to live here.

I'm more worried about myself and others in situations where our partnerperson isn't coming with us and the joy that is long distance awaits ...

Andrea said...

@ Jillian Lauren

I'm pretty much terrified that my boyfriend won't be able to find work (or good-paying work) when we move. I don't really have any advice- just wanted you to know that you're not alone! I'm doing my best to do preliminary job-hunts for him and will help him with resumes and applications when the time comes.

Henry, wag said...

@seth

I'm unclear as to why you're saying that Sarah Lawrence is dropping out of the top 50. Is it because it has a large class size and high acceptance rate? Is it because of limited funding? Both?

many many birdies said...

I'm annoyed because UNCG never got in touch with me at all. I know they had all kinds of trouble this year, but I *did* spend time and money on my application, and I think they could have at least sent me an email saying "We're sorry but things are behind schedule this year" or SOMETHING. I got in touch with them after the 15th to ask if a decision had been made on my application and they haven't responded. I know I'm being a little petty, since I already made my decision and it really doesn't matter, but it just seems rude and the rudeness bothers me. What if I never found this blog and didn't know how the acceptance process worked, and I was sitting anxiously hopeful at home still thinking I might get accepted? I think if things are running late they should tell applicants so in a mass-email. Not that hard to do.

Eric said...

Hi Lizzie,

I've accepted my spot at NYU (poetry), as well.

Nick said...

@Susan

I'm sorry you didn't get into Columbia this year. I think it's great that you're determined to apply again (such drive will serve your writing well). My sense is that people here are generally quite supportive and cheer even Columbia acceptances, but, yes, you're right that the debate on the program's overall value and benefit to writers arises periodically, creating unfortunate tension.

When I wrote my original lengthy post, I was articulating my thoughts for myself as much as, if not more than, for everyone else. I needed to think through my reasons for getting an MFA and imagine the lifestyle and schedule I would likely have at Columbia. Even though I "concluded" I won't apply -- I use quotes because I can waffle between now and the fall :) -- I'm still drawn to NYC, evidenced by the fact that I plan to apply to other program(s) there.

An ex-girlfriend's dad once told me, regarding college, "the money will work itself out." I'm a little dubious of that statement, but I like the can-do spirit behind it. If you have a gut feeling that the Columbia MFA experience is right for you, and are willing to assume the costs through loans and/or working while in school, then I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm; on the contrary, I want to encourage you. A few mailbags ago, I think Trilbe alluded to the fact that pay rates for consulting and part-time work in NYC often exceed those in other US cities by a significant margin. My sense is she's right, which could make financial juggling at Columbia workable, even though, again, there would be less time to write. Of course, all of these decisions are personal cost-benefit analyses. There are trade-offs. As Jamie and Yarduni put it so well, sometimes having competing priorities has the effect of making a writer hyperfocused when time is available. I can sort of relate in that I work full time and have been pursuing a Master's in creative writing (not an MFA) the past few years. There are stretches in which I feel an involuntary focusing occur, but more often I just feel like I wish I had more time to write, hence my original conclusion.

At any rate, I wish you, and everyone else here, all the best finding the right MFA program and improving your writing. It's important to evaluate programs with a critical eye, but ultimately we have to be excited about where we pursue the degree. Better luck next time with Columbia. Take care.

kbtoys said...

Henry and Seth,

I am also very nervously curious as to why Sarah Lawrence fell down the list. Please share your thoughts with us Seth! Thank you!

Sud said...

@Jasmine--just wanted to say how much I enjoyed reading your blog...you are a wonderful writer, plus what an experience!

@stateofconfusion--I think we have all, across the board, been confused about our goals/schools/MFA process. The blog has been helpful, supportive, fun and hilarious, but also frustrating at times, and more, it has sometimes contributed to our own confusion and self doubt. I can see that it would also be hard to be from another country and try to gauge what's happening here in the programs.

For financial support, selectivity, size of cohort, etc., Seth's info is great, really great. But what selectivity doesn't always tell you, is what the hopes and dreams of your cohort will be. It can't even really address talent. People are drawn to different schools for different reasons. Yes, it has to be assumed that the best who apply to several schools will probably be offered several spots. People who can't afford private school tuition, will not likely apply to a school with little or no funding. However, that doesn't mean that there aren't some wonderful writers applying to those programs. Columbia still has a great reputation, it is an Ivy, which is always a plus on your resume, and if you can afford and want to go, you should go.
There will always be people who hated their experience, such as many have done at Iowa, and other really good programs. And there will always be people who loved their experience at the same places.

I can hardly believe I even jumped in on this topic. I am going to a low residency program, so I have no vested interest here at all. I just felt compelled to add my 50+ years of life experience.
I wish you great luck and all the best.

Seth Abramson said...

@Susan.

The overall rankings are based on applicant perceptions. And the perception of applicants who use this community prior to applying to MFA programs is that Columbia is, overall, ranked somewhere in the 40s. I allow data into the overall rankings from those who come here after they have applied to apply a sort of "brake" to the rankings -- to keep them connected with the past in a way they would not be if only individuals who'd actually done online research on programs before applying were allowed to vote in the rankings. To repeat: any other ranking methodology you could possibly imagine (selectivity, funding, five-year placement, cost of living, duration, pre-app-date popularity, &c &c) would have Columbia barely inside or else outside the top 50. And if I did what I probably should do -- exclude non-researching applicants from the vote -- Columbia would likewise not be in the top. This is one reason it's hard to listen to accusations that my strong feelings about Columbia have biased the rankings -- because in fact they have, to the extent that I've bent over backwards for Columbia and the other NYC programs more than I should have.

So when you say "all" the rankings are based on applicants' perceptions, this is wrong -- the funding rankings are not, nor the selectivity rankings, nor the placement rankings, nor (as anyone could compile from my data) rankings based on program duration, teaching load, cost of living, &c &c.

Right now the NYC programs are in the midst of a realignment. NYU, not Columbia, is considered the "prestige" program in the city that funds people. Brooklyn College and Hunter College and Queens College and CCNY are on the rise because they're cheap. The New School holds on because it's had a place in NYC creative writing since the 1930s, because it's almost entirely non-selective, because a lot of folks will only apply to NYC programs and/or live in NYC and want to stay close to home, &c. Also it is strong in CNF (#3) whereas, say, Columbia is not as strong (#15) and this helps burnish its reputation. TNS also has a much broader commitment to the arts than CU; for the same reason CalArts, CCA, and SAIC hang on in the rankings way, way beyond what one would expect based on prestige and cost and duration. SLC suffers because it is expensive, it's not downtown, it was always much better known for poetry (the less popular genre anyway), and it's two years -- there's really no measure in which it excels as compared to other programs (those worried about cost apply to CCNY or the CUNYs; prestige, CU or NYU; a historical commitment to a range of arts -- TNS started from the highest perch of any NYC program when the rankings began four years ago, with 750 applicants, more even at the time at NYU, so it also had farthest to fall to really begin to appear like it was in trouble -- and so on). I have a hopefully forthcoming article on the NYC MFA which will explain a lot of this much more.

The OP writes, "what selectivity doesn't always tell you, is what the hopes and dreams of your cohort will be. It can't even really address talent." As to the first point: Is there something else that can tell you the "hopes and dreams" of your cohort? No, that's absurd. So if nothing can tell you that, how could anyone possibly think to use such a measure in judging any program? As to the second point, well, it's wrong -- unless you have proof that CU gets a more talented pool of applicants on average than other programs (and I have much to suggest the opposite would be true), there's every reason to think that, yes, selectivity does bespeak talent.

I agree with the OP that CU is still an Ivy. I disagree that it has a "great" reputation -- right now it has a "good" reputation, and the trend is toward, within five years, a "fair" reputation.

Cheers,
S.

Seth Abramson said...

As to being supportive of all applicants...

Imagine an applicant comes on here and says, "Hey you guys! I'm super-psyched to apply to MFA programs this year! My undergrad prof told me with an MFA I'll get a teaching job right after I graduate for sure!"

What would you guys do?

Well, you would do the moral thing: you would dash her hopes. You would tell her the truth and say that there's no way in hell you're getting a job after your MFA unless you've got books. And she might respond:

"Hey! I thought I heard this was a supportive community? But you guys are totally trying to make me feel bad about my reasoning for doing an MFA! WTF?" And you all would respond:

"We're just trying to be helpful -- you have the facts wrong, and you're about to make either a bad decision or else a decision for the wrong reasons. We're not trying to not be supportive -- we're supporting you by being honest with you."

So folks come on here and (often unintentionally) misrepresent Columbia's reputation, funding, selectivity, curricular focus, placement record, access to agents, cost of living, and everything else you could imagine. And what happens? No one (or rarely anyone) stands up and says, "No! Step away from the brink, friend! You've made a mistake, I fear!" And the reason not many can do that is because not many folks have the facts.

I spent four years researching the facts. I spoke with CU applicants, current students, and graduates. I attempted to engage the CU director directly. I read the CU website thoroughly, including non-CW portions of the website which gave critical data about the functioning and selectivity of the CU graduate colleges. I compiled data from thousands of applicants. I did complex comparisons of CU in selectivity, funding, and other categories to literally scores of other programs. So yes, I know the facts. And my strong feelings about CU are based on the facts I found -- I had no pre-existing anti-CU bias whatsoever.

So when I warn people against CU, when I speak the truth about CU, I am supporting you in the only way my morals allow: by not spit-shining a turd, if you take my meaning.

Cheers,
S.

Unknown said...

hey seth, nick, sud, et al,

seriously, thanks for the comments. i have researched programs a lot and i think it's really important to know the good and the bad. seth, i know you're a lawyer, my dad is too, and i can't believe i wrote "all" instead of "overall" thus spurring another novella. i get it, i do. i still disagree that columbia has a high percentage acceptance rate--yes, i get that in comparison to other schools, it is lower (do i mean higher?), and i think a lot of that is b/c it's one of the largest programs (for me, a plus, yes i get why for most ppl smaller class size is a plus). unless yield numbers and total applicant #s are released, which would be nice, but a school's under no obligation to do so, i don't think we'll know the exact percentages. nor do i think the blog, as helpful as it is, can necessarily be taken as representative by its posters. i'm sure you don't mean to sound vitriolic, i'd hope not, but in a lot of your posts about columbia, sorry but that is how it sounds and i'm sure that has made ppl interested in applying there less interested in posting here.

and i'm not making an "accusation" about you influencing rankings, but it's somewhat a circular pattern if ppl using this blog apply to the top-ranked (read: most popular by posters) schools and then report them, thus making them more popular. yes, i know the rankings change some each year. just an aside, maybe this was for the fiction overall rankings, but i thought you had columbia ranked 22 or 24 this year, from the most recent ones? in any case, i have said before i do find the fact-based ranking very useful, the popularity rankings not so much (i only applied to a few schools in your top 20 or 30 in that count, and according to me i applied to the 12 best, haha, obvi that's best for me).

so in summary, i like columbia, you don't, most ppl here don't, a shit ton of ppl still apply, i think it's a highly competitive program with a less than 10% acceptance rate, you think it's a not hightly competitive program b/c it's not as selective as somewhere like UVA that took, like, 9 people this year, i think it's likely that i'm not the sole existing person who would still pick an expensive school like columbia over a funded program because i think money is not the greatest determingin factor about program experience and program quality, and when i visited columbia i met ppl who'd done just that, so i'm still not buying this idea about everyone choosing michigan over columbia and that everyone would choose to make that decision. also, clearly personal fit has a lot to do with it. i got a great feel for the CU program when visiting, not so much for the only program i actually got accepted into, and will therefore likely not attend.

clearly i have a job with a lot of free time, but i don't want to spend it arguing with ppl over things i've already researched and made up my own mind about. i totally get the need you might have as a lawyer to discuss more, i'm not going to respond to this again for my own sanity but at least ppl know there are other positions to be taken. for anyone who wants to jump in on later comments, please note i'm trying to be respectful and i'm not saying seth is a terrible person or spamming his personal website. i think seth is great, i just don't think he's god, ok?

in case i ruined anyone's day by bringing this stuff up again, here's new topic for discussion if anyone wants to chime in: how do you share your work with family/friends? i have never done this and frankly am petrified of doing so. even though i don't write about my family and friends specifically, i hate that they will try to read into it and be like, oh, am i that person, or, did that really happen to you? how do other ppl handle that?

Seth Abramson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Seth Abramson said...

@Susan.

I hope you'll understand if I don't consider it worthwhile giving you a more comprehensive reply this time...

...as I'll now say, for the fourth time, that Columbia has made available on its website all the numbers you are speaking of, including total applicant pool size, yield, and number of students admitted. And that data reveals Columbia has a 14.17% yield-exclusive acceptance rate, with a yield that would be considered low (meaning, its relative placement would be worse if we added in yield), which places it 64th among the 80 programs whose data is known. I didn't spend four years collecting this data for you to repeatedly pretend it doesn't exist and hasn't been made public.

You're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts, sorry.

Boy, I just don't know how to say this any clearer. Best of luck to you.

S.

Seth Abramson said...

P.S. Go here. Read all the charts in the right-hand sidebar. Do some actual research. You clearly have not done the research you claim, which means you're wasting others' time. Columbia's 3G numbers rank it 14th in total applications with only half of all MFA programs reporting; if we look at its 2G numbers -- in order to level the playing field and not disadvantage schools without nonfiction programs -- it will rank outside the top 20 in total applications, and that's with around 65 MFA programs still to report data. While other top 50 programs have seen between a 25% and 150% increase in applications since 2007, Columbia's applications have declined significantly during that period, as Columbia's own internal data showed -- on its website -- until it was removed. Every single thing you have said about Columbia is empirically wrong; for you to classify as vitriol my annoyance with you confidently pretending like you know what you're talking about, and claiming to have done research you obviously didn't do, and which I did... well, I don't think some minor annoyance on my part is unwarranted. I'm trying to give you the information you need, and you simply won't receive it. Again, best of luck, as without additional research you will (I add ruefully) sorely need it. --S.

Ena said...

@Seth & Columbia:

THANK YOU!

It's worth it to come back to this blog just for this.

Unknown said...

well, i'm disappointed. this is exactly the kind of vitriol and rudeness (you included ena, i know you don't care, but you are very rude) that i was referring to. if you can't read what you just wrote and not understand how you've made this site really off-putting, then you are in sore need of more self-awareness. your link goes to your own website. i do resent you saying i haven't done the research. if you can provide a link to columbia's website where it gives out the current applicant #s, i'd love to see it. you're right, no one is entitled to make up facts, but you're not entitled to promote your inferences as facts, either.

Unknown said...

also, i was pretty clear that i was estimating, not citing actual #s. i'm not sure how "everyhing i've said is empirically wrong" when my main point has been that Columbia is not a horrible school just b/c it doesn't do well in your rankings. what i liked most about columbia is the feel i got from the program, my conversations with current students, the rigor of the curriculum, and the larger class size, which lends to greater variety and diversity. those aren't empirical things to measure, so i'm not sure how i could be wrong that i liked those things.

Lizzie said...

This is getting absurd, and more importantly, unproductive.

Susan, even though I didn’t apply to Columbia (for me, it was too much money, too many courses), I can imagine that I would be hurt hearing people go on slamming my top choice school. I think it’s important to remember that Seth’s objective in this exchange isn’t to convince you to not go to Columbia. Clearly the price and course requirements didn’t deter you, so why should selectivity ratings?

Rather than try to argue with Seth (who may not be the ULTIMATE authority in all things, but has certainly devoted much more time and energy to understanding MFAs than you or I) about his facts, why not just accept it and say “going to a super selective program is not a priority for me.”

Also, think about it this way: Seth is VERY critical of programs like Columbia that do not give adequate funding to their MFAs, isn’t that a good thing? If no one spoke up and said “there’s a new standard in funding,” CU wouldn’t have any incentive to change. A lot of people read this blog, so maybe being open, and even critical, could be beneficial somewhere down the road.

Lizzie said...

P.S. To lighten the mood:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-agl0pOQfs

haha

Unknown said...

lizzie, i agree that's a good thing to encourage funding and certainly seth deserves credit for doing that. i guess i understand putting passion towards positive things, but not toward promoting a negative or limited view.

the link seth posted just confirmed what i said earlier, that a few years ago, the last known data, was 600 applicants, about a 10% acceptance rate. seth is always clear about noting where his data is not conclusive, and this is one of the areas in which he notes that. i just don't like being bullied and i don't like ppl trying to bully others or saying that other programs having a higher relative ranking means that an actual acceptance rate is not high. i don't care how many programs had a 3% acceptance rating, that doesn't mean it's easy to get into a 10% acceptance ranking or that ppl should be told they're less talented b/c of that. maybe this means this blog has completed its usefulness to me. i think perhaps this just isn't the right applicants/writers' community for me.

who really cares? i respect other ppl enough to believe that they are capable of researching and discovering the program elements that are important to them, and i wish everyone the best with their schools and upcoming applications. i don't know if i'll ever get into Columbia or if it would be my final choice, though right now it's what i'm most interested in. i will probably give up my one acceptance and one waitlist from this year, and i hope that makes someone else happy.

best,
susan

Emma said...

I have NO IDEA why I am adding my voice to this argument, but I feel compelled to point out that large class sizes do not necessarily indicate diversity, and in this case CERTAINLY not economic diversity. The very opposite, in fact, since Colombia is prohibitively expensive for most people.

Lizzie said...

I think you're right about staying positive in your approach. Also remember that we all have restrictions in selecting a program ($$, location, scheduling), and your's may just be different.

Also, you're right, especially coming out of undergrad a 10% acceptance rate seems incredibly low. All MFA programs are difficult to get into, period. All MFA acceptances are worth being proud of. Period.

Good luck with your applications for next year. I hope you end up in a program you're happy with.

Unknown said...

i too have less than $1,000 in my account, but i hope we're not using any one measure of demographics as "diversity."

oh, you all deserve some ponies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wouG4GpL1-I

kaybay said...

Speaking of New York City, that article about living in the city was PERFECT and painfully honest. I think anyone applying to NYC schools without oodles of extra cash should read it and take a hard look their intentions and reasons for attending school there. So much of the "artist" life is complete fantasy and sometimes I feel that so many of us are still in the cave looking at shadows.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Seth Abramson said...

Wow. Send someone to a site which says that Columbia matriculated 85 students out of 600 applicants, and they come back to crow about Columbia's matriculating cohort size being 60. Go figure. Susan, if you don't like the numbers and what they indicate, contact Columbia to complain -- the numbers (fifth time now) are theirs. Why aren't they online? Because the University removed them within three days of me posting them here on the blog and Ben Marcus showing up outraged that I had accurately quoted their own website (the data was being compiled by a non-CW division of CU, which had five-year admissions data for every single CU graduate school program). But you could go to the CW website even now and see the data is correct.

My vitriol has -- if the letters sent to me near-daily are any indication -- saved countless MFA applicants from crippling debt, and forced numerous programs to be more transparent about their funding and in some instances actually add to that funding.

People come here all the time to just chat about Columbia, and I say nothing. I only chime in when someone comes here to spread misinformation about that program. Funny thing, though -- I also chime in to issue corrections when people make inaccurate statements about other unfunded programs, like Pitt, UNH, and The New School (oddly, a much less common occurrence than people spreading misinformation about CU). My "bias" is the same as most MFA applicants' bias (according to polling) -- I oppose the unfunded MFA. I've made no bones about that.

If you only knew all the ways Columbia has gotten a pass -- I've already told you a few -- but how's this for another one. From a reliable source:

A visiting faculty member at Columbia observed that one of her students could barely speak, let alone write English. This faculty member questioned a colleague about this, saying (in paraphrase) "Why is this person allowed to stay? They literally can't write a coherent sentence in English!" The response she got was this: "As long as the checks keep clearing, she stays."

I've got a million stories like these. So when I use stats to show Columbia isn't selective, it's only because I don't feel like sharing all the anecdotes sent to me via e-mail. Just in the category of "I got to Columbia and realized all my classmates were pampered rich kids" I could give you about a dozen stories.

Best of luck applying to Columbia; ultimately, you do what makes you happy, I've no investment in any one applicant. What I write in this space is really not intended for you -- but others who can still be saved from making a colossal mistake: paying $140,000 for a two-year non-professional, non-marketable art school degree. Those who are too hard-headed to take advice from experts end up, sadly, learning things the hard way. I regret that, but as this conversation shows, it can't be helped even when/if I try.

S.

DisplayedName said...

Seth -

Columbia -- with a full courseload completely devoted to WRITING -- is a different beast than Irvine, Cornell, etc. That is why it costs more.

Want writers to teach you how to read and write? Go to Columbia. Want a couple of years of peace to work on your writing? Go elsewhere.

You get what you pay for.

DisplayedName said...

FYI Columbia's applications have not diminished. Most popular programs have fluctuations of a hundred or two. And last year's yield was over 90%.

Your data is misleading and incomplete.

DisplayedName said...

And seriously, does this sound at all true?

A visiting faculty member at Columbia observed that one of her students could barely speak, let alone write English. This faculty member questioned a colleague about this, saying (in paraphrase) "Why is this person allowed to stay? They literally can't write a coherent sentence in English!" The response she got was this: "As long as the checks keep clearing, she stays."

I've got a million stories like these. So when I use stats to show Columbia isn't selective, it's only because I don't feel like sharing all the anecdotes sent to me via e-mail. Just in the category of "I got to Columbia and realized all my classmates were pampered rich kids" I could give you about a dozen stories.


Why don't you share these stories?

Seth Abramson said...

@Smoke.

Columbia's own data shows that it has not had a 90% yield this millennium (it has always hovered between 60% and 78%) and that its applications have decreased 34% in the past five years.

I'll be blunt -- you, sir, are a liar.

S.

Seth Abramson said...

P.S. Clearly they haven't taught you the meaning of either the word "misleading" or "incomplete" wherever it is you study (you misused these terms the last time you appeared here to slander me, also). You are saying -- let's be clear -- that I made up the data on TSE. In which case I believe your argument is that my data is "wrong." For it to be "misleading" it would have to be claiming it's something it's not, which it isn't -- I've made no bones about the fact that all of the data I've compiled is public data and I've clearly stated on my blog what the numbers represent (not that you appear to have read anything on TSE but Columbia's rankings, which dissatisfy you [NB: grow up]). For it to be "incomplete" data it would have to be missing information -- which, again, it's not, as I'm using the most recent public data available and if ever I post partial data I prominently note that. If you have more recent data provide a link -- otherwise, simply say your piece (which is that, without a shred of evidence, you're claiming that I've somehow manufactured data appearing on public websites -- actually scores of MFA program websites across the nation -- which I have no control over) and move on. But I'm done with you; you'll get no more response from me. You are a scoundrel and a slanderer, plain and simple. I haven't busted my hump for four years meticulously collecting data and distributing it for free just to slum around with you in a discussion like this. --S.

Brittany said...

Why can't we be friends?

Why can't we be friends?

Why can't we be friends?

Why can't weeeee be friends?

foe said...

Pathetic. Seth et al.

Alexandra said...

I'm excited about going to Columbia in the fall, but this discussion has a bitter taste. Hopefully I'll be meeting some of you from this comments section at orientation things.

@ Jamie - Thanks for the advice on staying productive in New York. I'll let you know how it goes in the fall!

And now I will close this window permanently...

pdg said...

What's the general perspective on uMass Amherst (particularly funding)? I've not heard anything lately. Are they slipping, or trending upwards?

Summer said...

I'll hand it to Columbia - of all the programs represented on this blog, Columbia is the only one to produce honest-to-goodness trolls.

Not that I dislike trolling, but I'd prefer to keep that my hobby rather than make it my graduate school enterprise.

Quote of the day:

"Want writers to teach you how to read and write? Go to Columbia. Want a couple of years of peace to work on your writing? Go elsewhere."

Hot locution. Will I get a special Columbia-logo ballpoint with such peerless education? I learned my ABC's in elementary school, but I realize many MFA applicants may have been raised by wolves, so I see where you're coming from. Now, if you're saying Ron Carlson and Alice Fulton don't have anything to say about reading and writing - at no cost to admitted applicants - then I take issue. I've seen Ron Carlson read with my own two eyes, so I just want you to know that he can in fact read. I can't prove anything about Alice Fulton.

Justin Bendell said...

Meow.

@ all - Since April came around, I've retreated to lurker status again and I forgot to say goodbye. So this is it: So long folks. I'll probably return next season to share any insights I have in a my first MFA year to the 2011 crop of applicants. Best to all, Justin

Ashley Brooke said...

Since we're talking about ICP and nobody has mentioned Columbia I thought I'd keep talking about ICP.

fucking magnets, how do they work?

Lizzie said...

i'd like to thank ashley brooke for being the first to acknowledge the hilarity of that video.

"and i don't wanna talk to a scientist, you guys are lying and gettin me pissed."

Morgan said...

LIZZIE!

I've also accepted NYU- poetry. Let's be friends? email me morganapple0 @ gmail

Morgan said...

Eric you should email me too : )

Jennifer said...

Anyone here apply to Sewanee Writers Conference and hear back already? I've been waiting 5 weeks, which isn't super-long, but I'm getting impatient anyway. . .

Sud said...

Ashley, which video is it?

Charlie Bast said...

UC Riverside emailed me this morning and said that they have an open spot in their program and that they recommended me for admission. My file has been forwarded to the Office of Graduate Admissions, and I should find out soon...

This is good, right? RIGHT? AH!

DisplayedName said...

The most recent class had a near 100% yield. Historically it hovers around 70% -- which is extremely high, by the way.

All programs have fluctuating application numbers, Columbia included, last year it spiked and yield was higher than normal.

I never claimed you manufactured data. Your data is bad. I have articulated why already.
---
Summer: my point is that Columbia has a curriculum focused on practical instruction by working writers and editors. Other programs offer only a workshop and a single elective. It's a question of what you want.

For this reason, Seth's lists are somewhat pointless.

DisplayedName said...

Summer - compare the course list at UVA ( http://www.engl.virginia.edu/courses/MFA/writing103.shtml ) with Columbia's ( http://wwwapp.cc.columbia.edu/art/app/arts/writing/courses.jsp ) if you like, and see for yourself. They are two different types of program.

MFAguy said...

Jennifer, I heard back from Sewanee in early March. I did, though, apply in January.

Julia said...

Here's a question for those of you still hanging around (anybody?). It's come up before, I'm sure, but I'd love it if someone would give me their thoughts. Also, it's not about Columbia! \o/

How do you guys feel about going into a small amount of debt (less than $10,000) for the MFA?

If you're curious, I'm basing this figure off of the [cost of attendance + living] - [what I have saved for school + a nondepartmental assistantship].

Obviously it's not an /ideal/ situation, but I don't know how many of us ever get to ideal? We are talking about my first choice school. The assistantship (if I can get it) would have the same requirements as a departmental TAship.

Thank you in advance for your thoughts and advice. It's been really awesome following this blog and I hope things work out (one way or another) for everybody.

many many birdies said...

I think it's interesting that some people seem to interpret information as insults.

We all know Seth doesn't like the concept of the unfunded MFA - which I appreciate, because these programs are not going to bother to increase their funding if no one complains. But as far as Columbia an other unfunded or poorly-funded programs are concerned, I've never heard him say he hates certain programs or thinks they're bad.

I'm going to a poorly-funded program whose selectivity is not as high as a lot of popular MFA programs (UNH). Several people on this blog have been accepted there and declined, usually citing funding as the reason. I have never felt attacked or unsupported because people have stated the facts about the program I've chosen (ie, that it's funding is sucky), nor do I feel like people are saying my program is "bad" or "horrible" because they personally don't want to go there. It's a perfect program for me, because of a whole constellation of factors that are probably quite unique to me and my needs as a writer. If it was really important for me to go to one of the most selective MFA programs in the country, I wouldn't be going to UNH. If it was necessary for me to not pay a dime out of pocket, I wouldn't be going, either. But as it is, other factors - being close to home, being in a relatively small program, working with the faculty who I happen to really like - were more important to me than selectivity and funding.

I'm sure people who are interesting in Columbia have very good reasons for wanting to go there (just as I have what I believe are very good reasons to go to a relatively poorly-funded program). I'm not sure why asserting that some factors might be more important to some people is considered insulting. It's not like I have to run around and insist that UNH is as selective as Vanderbilt to feel excited about my program. I know it isn't - and futhermore, I know a lot more about the reality of it's funding than I would have had it not been for the data collected by Seth - and I'm still really excited to go and feel I made the best choice for me, at this moment in my life, with all the various things going on in my life.

If you love Columbia, go ahead and love Columbia - what's important to you might not be the same thing as what's important to other MFA-seekers, or even most other MFA-seekers. A school's general popularity is helpful information to have, but the fact that a school isn't popular, or is losing popularity, doesn't mean it necessarily isn't right for you. You're trying to find the program that's the best fit for you, and in that situation, information - even in the form of personal opinion - is never a bad thing.

DisplayedName said...

Julia -

Just depends on you. 10K is about $100 a month for the next ten years. If it will make the difference between living in a cardboard box and a real apartment I would probably go for it, otherwise you could try asking for more workstudy.

many many birdies said...

Julia,

depending on what you do for work right now, you might be better off to keep working for a year and save what you'll need. Less than 10K is often possible to save in one working year, and then you wouldn't have to go into debt.

I personally am fearful of MFA debt because I don't expect the MFA to move me into a higher pay-bracket than I'm in right now - and right now I wouldn't feel comfortable with another monthly bill. I personally have sought work that allows me time to write, and the result is that my income is not fabulous. I worry that post-MFA, I will still want time to write, and my income will still not be fabulous - so for me personally, even a small amount of debt would be a bad idea. Make sure you really figure out your numbers - if you figure it all out and feel comfortable with what your payments would be, then go for it.

Jennifer said...

@MFA Guy

Thanks. I applied on March 19. I'm just going to have to be patient, I guess. I'll have to wait until late may to hear from BL anyway. Sigh.

Laura said...

@ Julia,

That's my situation, approximately. I'm going to go into around $12,000 of debt for all three years of my MFA program (unless some miracle funding comes my way? please???). I would much rather not have any debt, because even that amount makes me a little nervous, but the payments will probably be low enough to be manageable even if I don't make much money. And in the second or third year of my program, I might be able to get a teaching position which will pay (but without tuition waiver unfortunately), in which case that $12k amount might end up less.

I think that having no debt is the ideal situation, but if it's a program you really love then a small amount of debt is probably worth it. Some people in funded programs even end up coming out with a $10k loan because stipends aren't always enough to cover living expenses. So a little loan of around $10k isn't really anything to panic over, I don't think, especially if you really love the program.

MFAguy said...

Hey, good luck Jennifer.

By any chance do you know Michael at George Mason? He's a first year poet, bald, skinny, kind of aloof, but a really nice guy.

Jennifer said...

@MFA Guy

Yep. He was in my Mark Twain lit class first semester. Seemed smart.

DisplayedName said...

Those links - Jim Shepard and Lousie Gluck - are amazing. Many thanks, Nancy.

katem said...

Hi, lurker here. Has ANYONE gotten their rejection letter from BU (fiction) yet? I need my level of sucktasticness validated.

Summer said...

@Smoke - CU v. UVA: Two different types of programs in more areas than curriculum. At UVA, even if the program does not suit certain applicants to the millimeter, the quality of learning is generally considered high - and getting what you pay for is never the question.

The point here is, as you've said, practical, but in a different way: I question the idea that artistic suitability alone should determine a program's merit to an individual applicant. After all, writers presumably want to write after they get an MFA. UVA v. Cornell v. Michigan is a subjective choice - all these programs are patrons to their students. When it comes to CU v. fully funded programs, the choice is not subjective for most applicants. You will be slaving to pay back loans post-MFA unless you are rich enough to pay your way. Choosing to be a poor artist is one thing - you won't be rolling in dough when you come out of UVA or Cornell - but choosing to have a major program do the violence of crushing debt to you is something else. There have been lots of broke artists in history, but not too many have had tens of thousands of dollars in writing school debt before the past few years.

Writers are considered lucky if they land a job in the field with mid-level pay and benefits. Mid-level pay won't allow you much time to think about writing post-MFA if you have to make what almost amounts to a mortgage payment per month in loan obligation. Is a conservatory program doing the best it can for its students if it demands law-school-sized loans from the majority? Especially since other similar-sized programs (Iowa) have secured full funding?

There is balance in value. Money is time. Michigan gives you what amounts to several years of post-MFA relief because you don't have to pay back any loans - which is more time to write and live poor if you have to. Presumably writing is a life-long thing to Columbia students, as no one with writing aspirations has become a master in two years.

Whether the courses at Columbia are more suitable to some than others is not what I'm arguing. I'd rather get paid to read a few more books than sell my wagon for supposedly serious and practical instruction that does not guarantee me a high-paying job - especially since most of our writing exemplars got along fine with their admittedly outmoded reading-and-thinking style of development.

Yarduni said...

@Katem -

No word from BU either.

Unknown said...

@Julia -- I know I'm late to this party, but so far, nobody's mentioned two parts of your equation (one that you mention and one that you don't) that could matter very much: savings and interest.

In other words, maybe you don't want to think only about whether you'll be able to afford the monthly loan payment—a dangerous kind of speculation in this field at any rate—but also about how much money you think the degree is worth as a lump-sum expenditure.

In this context, it's worth noting taking a $10,000 with a meager 4% interest rate paid off in a breezy 10 years actually means spending $12,150. And how much extra will you spend on your MFA from savings? $5,000? $10,000? $20,000? I'm assuming it's substantial or else you wouldn't have mentioned the savings in the first place.

I guess I think that it's easier to feel okay about the phrase "$10,000 in debt" than about spending, say, $25,000 out of pocket—which is what you're doing, just not all at once. In part, it's easier because our brains are notoriously lousy at handling the abstract concept of debt; it's practically invisible to us. And again, if I were you, I'd want to be sure about the difference between the $10,000 figure and $10,000 plus interest plus savings.

Julia said...

@Smoke-Oi, Megan, Laura T, & EE26

Thank you for your perspectives, you guys! I've definitely got a lot to think about and it's really helpful to see the different arguments mapped out here.

gellyfish said...

@ Katem

I called the other day and they said "we should be sending them out today." I called a couple of weeks before that and they said something similar. I'm really not sure, but I live in Boston so I should get mine shortly after they send them out. I'll let you know when I get mine so that you can brace yourself!

Charlie Bast said...

@‪katem‬

I got my BU rejection letter a few days ago.

Ashley Brooke said...

@Sud,
Actual ICP video.

&

SNL parody.

Anonymous said...

@Nikay

We don't need luck! WE GOT THIS!!!!!

I will most definitely email you when word comes in!

Sud said...

Ashley brook--thank you!!

DisplayedName said...

Summer - here's the thing about Columbia. While all of those things you've said are true, Columbia isn't concerned with your costs, only with providing the best writing program in the country (whether they provide it is debatable). I was willing to risk the extra loans because I think I have a better chance of becoming a published writer than if I went elsewhere. But res ipsa loquitor.

It's also worth mentioning that there are a few well-paying writing jobs out there: I'm getting $40/hr copywriting while I'm in school. (Not typical) And if you're somewhat presentable you can snag a grantwriting job at university and get paid 50-70K in 5 years, while working 9-5. Just takes creativity and patience to find something well paying.

DisplayedName said...

(of course I am working at 1.42am on a Saturday night/Sunday morning)

Mike Saye said...

Hi all,

I applied to 10 programs and was rejected at all of them, which was disappointing but not unexpected. My question is what's the best way to improve my writing between now and next app season? I'm thinking lots of reading and writing; however, I live out in the sticks and don't have a regular group of folks to read my poetry and give me some feedback. Any recommendations on online workshops/writing communities?

Best,
Mike

Jennifer said...

@Mike--

I have taken about five classes online with Gotham Writers Workshop and got two of my three recommendations out of it (one of the teachers even offered before I asked). As far as the classes themselves are concerned one of them was absolutely fantastic, one of them was so horrible I dropped out, and the others were okay. I just checked and they do have poetry classes.

I think Gotham might be a great option for you. I don't remember how much it costs, but I remember thinking it was kind of expensive but then thinking it was cheap compared to some other places.

Summer said...

Eh - I suppose the important thing is that people know what they are getting into.

If I REALLY wanted to go to Columbia, I probably would. A few of my friends are there for poetry.

DisplayedName said...

Yeah, and I don't think anyone conceals the costs of going. What annoys me about some of the discourse on this blog is that it makes people feel bad about going to school. I think applicants would be better served reading profiles of programs and reading first person accounts of their experiences as grad students.

I appreciate Seth's work bringing financial aid issues to the forefront, but he's doing it in a way that minimizes the really important details of MFA programs.

Best of luck at UVa!

Perpetua said...

For Seth - Don't know if it matters but decided to go with BGSU instead of UNLV. Really tough decision but relieved!

FortyTwo said...

Hi all,

Lurker here thinking about applying either this fall or next year. I write YA fiction so the range of programs I can apply to seems pretty limited, based on the research I've done so far. I'm interested in The New School's program because I'm already living and working in NYC (and want to keep my job) and love their faculty and the YA/children's writing concentration. Does anyone know a) specifically what kind of financial aid people in that program get and b) whether people in the YA/children's writing program are eligible for teaching opportunities, or if those tend to go to people in the more traditional concentrations?

Thanks!

Ena said...

@Susan

Don't address me, as I was certainly not addressing you.

I commend Seth on his argumentative skills and said so and, frankly, still say so. We all care about others' opinions as long as they reinforce our own.

I have no more reason to play along. Best of luck to everyone in your chosen decisions: I mean it.

Mike Saye said...

Hi Jennifer,
I've heard of Gotham. It looks like something that would be right up my alley. I follow you guys over at the MFA Chronicles. Thank you for taking time to post.

I know this may seem like a silly question but how much time do most of you devote to reading and writing daily. Currently, I spend around two hours a day reading and/or writing. I think my lack of discipline in this area may be the primary flaw in my writing habits.


How much time should I be devoting to writing and reading? And should I focus on one more than the other?
For the sake of clarity, I don't have an issue with writing/reading longer. The spirit is strong but the organizational skills are weak.

Guess there isn't a prescription here but do most of you regiment your reading/writing time?

...Thanks again Jennifer.

Jennifer said...

@Mike

I think with writing schedules and such it very, very much depends on the writer.

My writing schedule is similar to what it was before I was in school--I get up early in the morning and write for about two hours (usually this time is spent revising something--I'm always revising). It is really important to me to write everyday. But I have friends who are amazing writers who completely disagree with my approach--they can't write everyday, but when they do write they sit down and do 8-10 hour marathons (which I could never do!). I read in the afternoon for school and at night before I go to bed I read a little of a "treat" book (meaning one that isn't required for a class!)

As far as reading is concerned I believe pretty strongly that reading is just as important as writing. Make sure you become, if you aren't already, familiar with the masters, such as Hemingway and Faulkner.

Also, a couple more things that might help you with getting into school --get a little book called The Art of Fiction by John Gardner and read it and follow it. Your fiction will improve --maybe more than it will improve from online workshops. The other thing is to read short stories--reading them will help you figure out the form and help you to write them well for your applications. My professor has me reading stories by James Salter and D. H. Lawrence and James Joyce (especially "Araby") for this.

Good Luck! I wish you the best!

Jennifer said...

@Mike--

Woops, I totally forgot you were poetry! I guess scratch all that stuff about reading short stories and John Gardner, etc., but anyone applying next year for fiction can take that free advice if they want to.

But definitely read lots of poetry. And practice with different forms.

Again, sorry for forgetting that you are poetry!

many many birdies said...

Mike,

for me, it's been helpful to think of writing and reading as a regular discipline (as opposed to regimen...), not unlike exercise. I don't always exercise at the same time of day, or for the same amount, and I don't always do the same kind of exercise, but I do commit myself to doing SOME kind of exercise six days a week.

Writing, for me, is the same. I commit to writing and reading daily. Sometimes this means writing for two hours in the morning, sometimes it means writing for half-an-hour before bed. I aim for a certain number of hours weekly for writing, and a certain number of poetry books a month.

Because my schedule is busy and ever-changing, this works for me a lot better than deciding every morning I will write for x amount of time, etc. I love the idea of a regular writing time, but I find if I am too rigid in my expectations I don't meet them. If I focus on commitment as opposed to routine, I do much better.

Lucas said...

Mike,

I'm only chiming in because I've been thinking about these issues a lot lately. And all I want to say is that you can't underestimate the importance of reading. I mean, if you write all of the time (let's say you triple your writing time every day), but you don't read, I think your work would stagnate. I'm using "you" here in a universal sense; same goes for me. I've actually been reading more than writing lately, but, when I sit down to write, I can tell it is helping, because, if nothing else, I'm getting more of a sense of what is "good" and what I should be aiming towards. I write fiction and I've been tearing ass through short fiction collections for a couple of months now. I feel much more prepared to churn out good stories...now, I need to make the time to do so. Right now, I'm grading my last stack of papers for the semester so I can do just that.

Also, through here or another tool, I'd find a poet who is in a program or about to start one and ask them some questions. Ask for suggestions on collections or books on craft to read. Ask about scheduling writing. That sort of thing can be very helpful. I suppose that you are doing just that, but I guess I'm recommending finding someone that you can have a slightly more extensive chat with. I'd love to help but, alas, I'm not a poet. Don't be shy; the worst thing some one would do would be not to respond.

Lucas said...

Or is it "the worst thing someone would do would be to not respond?"

See...we're all still learning...heh. Best of luck. Doubt I'll post here again.

Rosie said...

I'm officially attending Eastern WA this fall! Which means that my (fiction) spot at SDSU is now available. They will be notifying their second round of accepted students this week I think, so LOOK OUT!

Is anyone else going to EWU?

Courtney said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Laura said...

I'm so impressed by all of you with your writing regimens! I am very un-regimented. If I set aside a two hour block where I was only going to write, I wouldn't want to do it -- especially if I had to get up earlier than I do already, eep! With two jobs and an overload of classes I definitely don't want any more scheduled time.

However, in a way I am always writing. I write and revise poems in my head constantly, while I'm doing other things, walking around, driving. Jot down notes on every bit of paper I have on hand, then get so excited about a developing poem that I need to rush to a computer and type up a draft immediately. I revise in snatches and fragments over and over again.

And it works for me! I like my method of grabbing writing time from all over the place. It feels so much a part of my life that way, because it's ALWAYS there.

Whatever regimen I do have is imposed by school. A poem is due for workshop, so I get it ready. We're discussing a book in class, so I read it carefully. I've never been a writer outside of an academic setting (and won't yet, entering an MFA program!), so although I like being all spontaneous and free with my writing time, I'm not sure what I would do without that bit of structure.

Mike Saye said...

Jennifer, Megan, Lucas...Thank you very much for taking time to post. This is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for and I really appreciate it.

@Jennifer: I started out with fiction a few years ago and did read Gardner and I'm a Faulkner, Hemingway junkie still. Thank you for those suggestions.

Lucas: I think your advice about finding a poetry pal is an excellent idea. I tend to be shy but you're right.

Soooo... Anyone out there got a set of books on craft or a set of contemporary poets you think an aspiring MFA student should absolutely read? Anything that's really helped you?

I'm reading Neidecker, Sharon Olds,
Thomas Lux, and James Wright at the moment.

On craft, I'm reading Hoagland's Real Sofistikashun (not sure if i mispelled it right).

Megan: I have a hard time reading/writing according to a regimen as well. Aiming for so many hours a week is a good solution. Do you mind if I ask how many books of poetry you try to read each week?

Thanks again everyone!

Seth Abramson said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
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Sarah said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Jennifer said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
katem said...

Thanks, C, you're the only person I've heard so far that's gotten one. Wonder what's up with them?

MFAguy said...

Hey guys, now that the season is pretty much over I've been bored; however, I did compile a rather personal list of the "best" (yup it's a subjective one!) literary journals and some info on student-only journals:

http://christopherlinforth.wordpress.com/2010/04/27/best-literary-journals/

kbtoys said...

Seth,

Thanks a lot for explaining you're reasons for moving Sarah Lawrence down on the list (what I got from it was the inconvenience of location and it's being expensive and it's being more known for poetry than fiction). You mentioned how The New School is pretty much "non-selective." This might be a silly question but what does non-selective mean? I thought I saw TNS was number 7 on your list of schools and their selectivity. Also, isn't The New School pretty much as expensive as Sarah Lawrence? I'm not questioning your data whatsoever; just a bit confused and I want to be as prepared as possible when and if I get pulled off either wait list. Thank you!

Seth Abramson said...

Hi Kristen,

A couple quick clarifications -- first and most importantly, I didn't move SLC down in the rankings, you guys did. I.e. applicants. The vote totals were what they were, I had nothing to do with it. I was trying to armchair quarterback a possible explanation for what happened. And I should also say that I only gave a few possible explanations. E.g., I might also have said that the margin of error for something like this is understandably going to be, say, +/- %5, which in national MFA terms would be +/- 7.5 spots in the rankings. So SLC being 50 now could as easily be SLC being 42 or 43 right now -- it's within the MoE. And certainly if SLC dropped from 29 to, say, 42, it would be an easy explanation to say that nearly every unfunded program dropped this year to some extent or another, and (say) a 13-point drop represents a less than ten percent downward movement. In the 1996 rankings that would have been the equivalent of a program moving from #2 to #10, which again would not have seemed like any kind of catastrophe for the program (however unfortunate, but in either case we'd be calling it a top 10 program). SLC wasn't a top 25 program last year and it isn't this year; it's just a weaker top 50 program this year than last year.

Re: TNS, no, it's not #7 in selectivity, it's #7 in applications. In selectivity it just cracks the top 50, at #46. That TNS hasn't dropped more is something of a mystery, but then again, the same could be said of NYU. I.e., it isn't that Columbia's drop is surprising, or that SLC's is surprising, the better question is how NYU (CU's major competitor, at least traditionally, though that's changing now) and TNS (SLC's major competitor, until recently) are maintaining their positions. As I mentioned before, I think one thing to remember is that the NYC programs have always been most popular among those who are either already in NYC or only plan on applying in NYC -- those in the rest of the country rank all the NYC programs (with the possible exceptions of NYU, Hunter, and Brooklyn) much lower. So, conversely, TNS holding its position may also be a NYC-specific phenomenon, i.e. the program simply has, as I mentioned, a stronger presence in the City than SLC. Certainly among NYC-dwelling MFA applicants money is usually treated as no object -- else they would be applying outside the City -- so I don't mean to say the difference between SLC and TNS is really financial.

Best,
Seth

kbtoys said...

Seth,

I really appreciate your thorough response. I was definitely confused apparently, and I think I understand now. I am one of those nyc-ers who only applied within the city for fear of leaving my family and well, the city, but perhaps it's time I rethink priorities and step into the unknown (as well as re-read that mfa handbook...).

many many birdies said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
DFW1986 said...

After merciless rejections, I found the blog too disheartening, so it's been a while.

How's it going everyone? I'm back to ask if anyone else received an email from NYU after being rejected from the MFA saying that you were being considered for admission to the Draper Interdisciplinary MA degree?

Part of me wants to believe that they read my application and really believed that I would be a good fit there, but I'm skeptical that maybe they just send such an email to all rejectees.

Any insights would be appreciated and best of luck to everyone still making decisions.

pdg said...

@ DFW

All I can say is I've heard the same story from past years' posts on this blog. I can't say whether that is good or bad, but it's better than nothing!

Coughka said...

Hey DFW1986,

When NYU rejected me last year, they offered me the same deal: write a new SOP and we'll transfer your application to the Draper Blah Blah Blah program, whatever it is. I don't know anything about the Draper program, but my guess is that it's an unfunded revenue-generator for NYU.

I didn't like the gesture on NYU's part. I applied for an MFA because I wanted an MFA. My hopes aren't transferrable, jerks.

Jamie said...

@DFW

I too got the Draper email, as did my friend who got rejected from NYU last year. I don't know if that means we're all extra special; I think they probably sorted apps for some minimal criteria.

Hope that doesn't disappoint you too much. From what I've heard, the Draper is a relatively new program, so they're trying to build a base.

Did you apply to CCNY's MFA? My friend loves that program, he's gotten great feedback, and his writing has shown great improvement. I feel like it's this below-the-radar program - they don't do much marketing, their web site sucks, but they're still a good program. It's also cheap if you're a New Yorker (but who cares? money is no object to us! I light a cigar w a fistful of benjis every morning while my executive assistant Ashley Dupre reads me Finnegans Wake out loud!). The deadline for CCNY is May 1, and they're still moving my app forward no matter how many emails I send, even tho I've already committed to a program.

If not, hope the pain eases, and that next year's applications (or whatever endeavor) are successful.

Lexie said...

So is anyone here still waiting on Hunter?

Seth Abramson said...

Jamie, er... my point was that if someone only applies to programs in New York City, and therefore (by definition) not to a single one of the 40 programs nationally that are 75% funded or more, how much of a bleeping problem could money be...? There are a lot of people on this board who are so in debt already, or so debt-averse, or so unaccustomed to poverty, or (alternatively) so accustomed to and tired of poverty, that it would be unthinkable not to at least make a go at a single funded program. So, in context, I said that if one is only applying to programs in NYC money is not a significant factor (as I said, money is "treated as no object, else they would be applying outside the City"; in that common saying "object" means "obstacle"), which by definition is true. Anyone for whom money is a major obstacle is not going to apply only within NYC, unless -- as I've said elsewhere many times -- we're not in an "all things being equal" scenario, e.g. someone has family obligations that require that they stay in New York City. None of my comments here -- ever -- have been intended to preclude or whitewash over folks with very specific needs and situations re: a specific location.

S.

Jamie said...

Tumsworth -

Please take this message downstairs to wherever the computer-thing has ended up (the conservatory? the parlor? the gymnasium?), log into "MFA blog," and type what I have written here. Then please drive Ms Dupre to her ballet class, but not before replacing Finnegans in the vault.

@Seth

I know, old boy. Just giving you a little ribbing, NYC style!

Yours, Jamulous Jam$

***No part of this message should be construed as a solicitation to purchase securities. Please consult your CPA or CFA before replying.

Leslie said...

Jamie--Whatever writing program you attend, you are obviously learning a lot and bringing a lot to it!

Thanks for your posts; the best cheer I've gotten from MFA blog in weeks.

Austin said...

@ Mike

As far as poets to read, try Stanley Plumly, Charles Wright, maybe Edward Snow's translations of Rilke (are there really any other), Khaled Mattawa, etc. etc. Also Robert Bly's "My Sentence Was A Thousand Years of Joy" is quite the exemplar of ghazal-form refigured.

As far as craft: forgive me because I don't remember the authors but these books have helped me a lot. Radiant Lyre: Essays on Lyric Poetry; Argument and Song by Stan Plumly; Poetic Meter and Form by Paul Fussell; Nine Gates; Free Verse by Charles Hartmann; Half-lifes and Quater-notes, both by Charles Wright and, if you're in the mood for something really intense, try Louise Gluck's Proofs and Theories.

I've never found Tony Hoagland to be a master of the craft. A damn good and funny poet, to be sure, but not really a "WOW" kind of craftsman. However, his essay in RS, "The Skittery Poem of the Moment" says it better than I ever could.

Mike Saye said...

@Megan, Thank you! I've got your email.

@Austin, Thanks very much for the suggestions. I love Mitchell's translations of Rilke, actually it's one of the books I constantly turn to. I've never read Snow's trans. You like them better than Mitchell? I've put your books/writers on my list. I really appreciate it.

Mike Saye said...

@Laura T,

Just saw your post about writing habits. I'm relieved to see that you approach writing like I do and have had success with it. Your description pretty much echoes my habit. I think the problem for me is that I haven't had enough pressure, say from a workshop etc, to actually push my writing/revising as far as I should. I gotta work on that.

Thanks for the post!

Lucas said...

Would someone be kind enough to repost Mr. Abramson's email address (he gives it out, right?). A friend of mine has a quick question I wanted to pass on to him that is not especially pertinent to this blog.

Ben McClendon said...

For those of you who were so kind and supportive when I was around earlier in the season, I wanted to share some good news.

In the past couple of days, I've been accepted into Northern Arizona University's MA program in creative writing with an assistantship. Flagstaff, here I come.

Best wishes to all.

kaybay said...

Congrats, Xataro! Does this mean you will not be applying to M.F.A. programs next year?

kaybay said...

Hey, quick question for all you traveling teachers out there. Anyone here have experience teaching in England? It's probably something I wouldn't actually have the cajones to commit to, but I thought that might be a super interesting way to spend a year abroad. I don't have an education degree and I'd be interested in theology/philosophy jobs (I've actually already found a few of those). What's it like? Is it worth it?

Ben McClendon said...

Thanks, kaybay.

It does indeed mean I won't be applying again next year. I'll be doing it in two years, instead.

Elissa Cahn said...

Congratulations, Xataro!!!

Jamie said...

Lan Samantha Chang reading from her forthcoming novel + Q&A.

Rosie said...

LOL, um...has anyone been accepted into a program, turned down the offer, then received a rejection from that same program days later? Because that just happened to me with SDSU. I turned down their offer on Monday, and just now got an email telling me my application status was available on the website, and they regretfully had to reject me.

WTF? I mean, I'm obviously not going to SDSU, but if I HAD accepted the offer, would this have happened...? Did the department accept me and the graduate school reject me? I am confused.

Courtney said...

I thought my Oregon State application must have gotten lost in the mail weeks ago! Completely forgot about that unfinished cell in my application spreadsheet. But I got a very kind email from the director today letting me know that they were hanging on to my application just in case in some kine of semi-finalist pool but have now filled all of the spots in the incoming class. FYI!

--Fiction Courtney

Courtney said...

Ooops! Of course I mean "some KIND" of semi-finalist pool. Sorry about that--blame Ambien/bud light/typing in the dark.

Yarduni said...

@Rosie -

Maybe it's one of those things where you want to break up with someone and then they call back just to tell you: "No! I'M breaking up with YOU!"

@DFW
I also got the offer from the Draper Program. Not sure what to think about it. I guess if you're not going for an MFA this year it might be an interesting option, but I really haven't looked into it. If I find out something interesting I'll post.

Not said...

@Seth -- Quick correction. I don't know if you have a particular threshold that qualifies a program as "unfunded," but I have a close friend at Pitt and here's the story there:

Two students in each genre receive three-year, fully-funded teaching gigs there. They teach two years of comp and then a year of creative writing courses.

There are also three-year, fully-funded grad student assistantships at Pitt, which seem to be used sporadically for recruiting.

Rosie said...

@Yarduni,

HA! I hope that's the case. My mentor thinks so, too. Either way, it's weird...and eliminates any doubts I might have about my decision.

Longfellow Winters said...

Anyone planning on going to SDSU or know much about the program or the city itself?

MommyJ said...

@Xataro, CONGRATULATIONS!!!!! I just saw this on the blog! I am soooo pleased for you. And in two years, when you apply to MFA programs, why not consider PhD programs too. You could come join me in Albany, NY. By then I'll have the serious info on SUNY Albany, or, as they prefer, UAlbany.

Woon said...

I unsubscribed some time ago. But I wanted to update you on what's been happening in my life. Since I last unsubscribed, I've visited my school and its town, hunted for apartments, ate at all the eateries and restaurants, and generally took in the college air. We also examined all the bus routes, grocery stores, and walking distances. Looked at some condos, townhouses. We thought, "Hey, these are nice." Then, the wife said, "Ah, fphuhck it, let's just buy a house." So now, no more walking and taking the bus. I'm just driving to campus.

Woon said...

Oh, also, I skulked around the English Department and MFA offices without letting anyone know. Then, it was over to the building where my office will be located (for the TA thing). Kinda cramped, but it'll do. Then, I tried the dining facilities. The food and facilities were fantastic! Man, I think I'll enjoy the meal plan the most. I'm thinking of holding my office hours in the lounge area at the entrance to one of the nicer dining facilities so that after my student office hour appointments are done, I can head straight for the buffet.

Sud said...

@Woon-Haha...and you still won't say where that is?

Woon said...

@Sud - I don't want you peeps tracking me down. Also, my future classmates and professors might be reading this blog and I don't want them to know how naughty I can get online.

Woon said...

...Not to mention my freshmen/sophomore students in English Comp class. I want them to take me seriously, you know.

anotherjenny said...

I'll be applying to MFAs this winter and I was wondering: when does this blog turn over? When does this year's MFA app season end and the next one begin?

I'm quite ready to start researching programs. Will there be a new ranking out before I apply this winter, or should I rely on the ones already online?

I started thinking seriously about the MFA in mid-January (perfect timing, right?) so I've been biding my time, writing, talking to former professors, MFA grads, English and Ed PhD students, and HS teachers who teach creative writing to get the clearest idea of what I'm getting into and what I can get out of it. It's been a roller coaster even deciding to do this, but all the forethought has at least made me serious and informed about it, so I'm kind of itching to begin :)

WordShift said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WordShift said...

Just a shout out. Compliments to Seth.

Applied to seven this round got into two (CCA, and UC riverside) I'm risk adverse, so I knew I
wouldn't go without at least a tuition waiver, so it was a no to CCA. (40K a year is too rich for my blood.)

Said yes to UCR with one caveat, the fellowship. And mums the word. Still waiting, though I will likely prepare for another round for Fall 2011, either that or apply to a few low res programs for January 2011.

What do I hope to improve? Stronger writing samples, apply in fiction and poetry this time round, enlist the services of someone like Seth to get feedback on my app, and have a kick ass SOP.

As a side point, Seth, curious about UCR. I'm wondering when you compile the data for UCR, does that include the traditional program at UCR, AND the Coachella Valley res and low res programs too?

Thanks!

Jake-Up said...

I noticed someone was mentioning something about the May 1st deadline for CCNY.

I am so confused.

Earlier in the year, I could NOT for the life of me find any decent information on the program's website regarding: when the deadline was, where to send supplemental materials and where to find forms.

Eventually, after several phonecalls and emails, I found everything I needed, but it wasn't until December 10th or so.

I got on the phone with someone from the department who told me I had missed the deadline by a few days, but I could apply to be non-matriculated and then reapply again the next fall to be considered for the program.

So, I stopped the process altogether and focused on finishing my other apps. Anyhow, I got an email last week saying my application wasn't completed and it was due May 1st. When I told them that I was told I'd missed the deadline, they told me they had no idea what I was talking about.

Anyway, what IS the deal? As it turned out, I was out-of-town and couldn't complete the application anyway, but does anyone know what the actual deadline is/was? I know a bunch of people on this blog here have ALREADY been accepted to CCNY, so it would lead me to believe that somehow this May 1st thing is a load of hogwash or just a major miscommunication.

Anyone care to shed some light? I'd like to apply next year...

Ben McClendon said...

@MommyJ -- Thanks for the kind words. I will keep all options on the table for when I finish the MA. New York does sound very nice, and I would like to land somewhere greener for the next stage. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the program in Albany once you're into it. I'll probably send you an out-of-the-blue email. Bonne chance!

Jamie said...

@Jake-Up

I had a similar experience with CCNY. From everything I can tell, their deadline is indeed May 1. I am headed to another program this fall, so the whole thing is more an academic exercise for me, but hopefully can help you.

I have a friend who's going, so I knew they offered spots as soon as March. I think I got my materials in Jan 15, in a bunch w some other schools.

Two months later, CCNY let me know they couldn't take a recommendation because it wasn't on official letterhead. They were the only school of fifteen that did this. So I had to bother my referee (who taught me at a school, but now works as an independent editor) to do the online form instead, which required altering the system (the awful ApplyYourself software freezes everything after you submit). So my application showed in the system as incomplete, though it was complete. I get the email 3 days before May, after I've already committed somewhere else. I wrote an email asking for my fee back, since my app was de facto negated by them, but I'm sure they won't offer me anything.

Why tell my stupid story for you? The point I'd take is that CCNY is an awesome program, but they're a CUNY school. And CUNY schools are all fairly notorious as horribly bureaucratic, though CCNY seems to want the gold in that event. They are the only school where I had to mail in my app fee by check using some form printed out from the online application. Just ridiculous. It's not totally their fault. These schools are starved for cash by New York State - friends who teach there talk about hoarding office supplies, etc. from all the budget cuts.

So if you apply there, just do the legwork to get someone from Graduate Admissions to confirm that everything's in and your application will proceed to the program - they're your gatekeeper. The department and grad admissions are two different offices - admissions are just clerical, they assemble all your stuff and forward it when it's complete. You won't show up on the dept's radar until you get the stuff through admissions. That's why there was the disconnect.

Woon said...

I was surprised to learn how much I enjoyed telling schools that I won't be able to take their offer. It's my own personal rejection letter to them. On one of them, I spent a good 40 minutes -- from first draft to initial revisions to putting it aside to marinate/pickle for awhile and then finally coming back to it for final revisions before sending it out.

Emma said...

Hey guys --

I really want my friend to read that article about living in New York that someone posted a while ago (talking about how heinously in debt they were; the "artist" lifestyle) but I can't find it!

Can someone link me to it?

Thanks so much!

Jake-Up said...

Jamie -

Thanks so much. I figured it was something like that -- miscommunication.

I'm still perplexed as to why someone who was actually in the MFA department told me I was late though, and would have to either try and become a non-matriculated student or reapply next year. Oh well. I've heard nothing but good things about the program otherwise, so I'll definitely be giving it a shot next year.

Jake-Up said...

Also, Emma, here is the link you're looking for:

http://www.meghandaum.com/by-meghan-daum/22-my-misspent-youth

TŞK said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TŞK said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
TŞK said...

Hi there - Long time lurker here. I've been waitlisted at Columbia fiction a few weeks ago. I know that the accepted students made their decisions on April 15 - The suspense is killing me. Do you think it's a bit late for me to expect an acceptance from Columbia at this point, or should I still keep my hopes up? Thank you!

Yarduni said...

@TSK -

Actually, Columbia's deadline for accepted students to give their final decision was April 26th. Still though, I would imagine it's quite late for an acceptance. I might be wrong though. Seth?

Arnold said...

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Unknown said...

So, just received my rejection email from SDSU today. Anyone else think that is a little tacky? Obviously I knew that I wouldn't be getting in, but still, May 4? Come on SDSU, get your act together.

Sud said...

@spartacus--I still haven't heard from Bennington!

lisa said...

@spartacus if it makes you feel any better, i didn't get notification of my rejection from csulb until last night, about 7 hours after i sent an email bugging them for a status update, since they had said all notifications should be received via mail by the end of the april.

so it goes.

LA Falcon said...

I just got accepted to sdsu for poetry. I thought I had been applying for fiction. I sent in fiction manuscripts, but I guess I accidently (I could swear I did not actually do this, but I guess I did) checked the poetry box on the online application. Since, I've been waitlisted at only one other place I'm probably going to accept the poetry spot even though I've never really considered poetry (up until now, of course). I'm both excited and perplexed.

Lindsay said...

@em yeu anh -- A few reasons. I'd say #1 is that it's a one year program. Most people are applying to MFA programs for time to write, so one year doesn't really do it for them. Unless someone has time constraints, I've found that most posters on this blog prefer the three year program, or two year programs at very successful schools (ie, Iowa, Texas, etc.)

#2 is that BU isn't really as successful at graduating successful writers as they say they are. Do they have successful alumni? Of course. But on their website they make it seem as if they have the same sort of record as Iowa or Cornell, which they don't.

#3 Funding. There isn't much of anything about funding (except the global fellowships, which yes, sound awesome) on the website, which is usually a sign that there isn't any, or that there isn't much at all. If there is, usually the program advertises that fact.

#4 Foreign Language requirement. I hear people baulk at this when it's required at a three year program. When it's required at a one year program, that's even less time one can spend on writing.

These three things combined are probably contributing to the low ranking. I could be wrong about this -- Seth might have a better idea -- but that would be my guess.

That said, the global fellowship sounds freaking amazing and they have some pretty great faculty -- Ha Jin, for example, who is awesome. I could see it being a top choice school for a globally-focused writer (if that makes sense).

But mostly, I think writers who are interested in that global focus are drawn to other programs, such as UNLV, which is longer and funded and has a better track record of successful alumni. BU just isn't what most people are looking for.

Lindsay said...

* obviously I meant FOUR things, not three. There's a reason I'm a writer and not a mathematician.

MommyJ said...

Just a note to all those who let the language requirement scare them away from a program (like I was): Find out what that actually entails before you write a place off your list.

I worried about how I would be able to add years of language classes on top of everything else; turns out, they have a course, generally offered in the fall, that fulfills the requirement. "Fluent" may mean different things different places. I have my choice of French and German.

I wish I'd known that YEARS ago! One course! Give me that and a writing workshop. I'll be fine.

One freakin' class ...

Anonymous said...

I, too, have doubts about the MFA rankings, and know for a fact that there are many people attempting to punk the rankings (voting 10 times for one school or another) because, I'm sorry to say, I have friends who are complete idiots and think doing things like that is amusing (yes, I‘ve told them to stop). And trust me, they're quite amused and I’m half-amused that they’re so amused, but hey, what can you do? But if I know a couple of pranksters who like to do stuff like that, I can't imagine what the schools themselves are doing. This is big business, and I guarantee you that some of these schools are just going to go down quietly with a fight. I also find the idea of people ranking programs which they’ve never attended, and might not even get into, distasteful. I’ve voiced this concern to Seth before, and he explained how the rankings are somewhat resilient to such “punking.”

Regarding Columbia, I don’t know what to think. It’s clear that Seth does not think highly of the program, and perhaps rightly so, but I’m sure many people who apply don’t know about this blog, or read into as much as others and don’t really have a full appreciation for the rankings and the funding debacle. I’m sure many people just say, “hey it’s Columbia, I’m sure the program is great because, er, it’s Columbia” and just apply. As far as the selectivity goes, Seth is the expert but I still wish the numbers were online now on the Columbia website, for the past couple of years, so we could all see. Columbia should just get its act together and be open and clear (key word) about its funding situation and applicant pool.

All that being said, I think we all owe Seth a big “thank you!” The funding rankings and all the data he’s gathered and analyzed is so helpful! What’s more is that the guy takes time to answer everyone’s questions and concerns--amazing.

Anonymous said...

*are not

Jasmine Sawers said...

In at Edinburgh's 1-year MSc. Bittersweet to be turning down my favorite place on Earth.

Unknown said...

Thanks everyone who made me feel better that I wasn't the very last person to be notified by a program (even if it's a rejection)

I'm wondering now if those who didn't get in anywhere or turned down the places they did get into have any idea about where they'll be applying to next year. Is it too early to start formulating a list? (I ask that because I already am)

Also, anyone interested in doing some peer review?

When I applied last year I didn't have anyone else go through my samples, but now I'm realizing that I definitely should have.

Unknown said...

Oh, and subscribing :)

Lydia E. Wright said...

So like has anyone got their UCR rejection? Mine is still lost in limbo.

Charlie Bast said...

@katem

I did send in my BU application materials a little late. Maybe they were sure about not wanting to look at my materials?

@Lydia E. Wright

Have you contacted Adrienne about it? She has been such a huge help to me. Since they were supposed to have decisions out on April 15, I called at the end of the day when I received yet no word and found out about the issues with my application. Let's just say I'm glad I called.

@anyone going to UC Riverside

Let's get in touch! I'm 95% sure I'll be going, but will be visiting to work on that last 5%. Email me at wordsmithing [at] gmail [dot] com.

katem said...

@C -- I finally did get my letter; I gather the delay was in the fact that I was super-secret waitlisted, which is a pretty nice consolation prize (though my recovering ego wishes they'd let me know that earlier). Good luck with UC Riverside!

R.T. said...

Affording the MFA is a free resource on programs that fully fund all students equally!

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