tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post1173233458502310179..comments2024-03-18T20:39:01.815-07:00Comments on THE MFA BLOG: Mailbag (Jul. 26)Tom Kealeyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11913868167191023096noreply@blogger.comBlogger273125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-77171242752925508522011-12-11T17:15:52.319-08:002011-12-11T17:15:52.319-08:00I Like the post . Please visit our website for F...I Like the post . Please visit our website for Freshman and Transfer College Admissions Consulting | San Francisco Bay Area <a href="http://www.c3admissionadvising.com/" rel="nofollow">college consulting</a>college consultinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15327175817174428825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-43159894316027287142010-09-03T06:35:34.762-07:002010-09-03T06:35:34.762-07:00New mailbag, plus some other posts, are up.New mailbag, plus some other posts, are up.Nancy Rawlinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15612031503087329517noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-63208597916994031162010-09-02T12:33:33.124-07:002010-09-02T12:33:33.124-07:00Seth,
You're absolutely right. I don't th...Seth,<br /><br />You're absolutely right. I don't think that prestige plays a major factor outside of Iowa and a few other schools, but I do think that if students are lucky enough to get into one of those schools, then they should recognize that the prestige value will almost certainly help them out, at least in the academic world.<br /><br />I also think it's important to recognize the fact that the path to obtaining a tenure-track job is often a long and difficult one. Few, if any, MFA graduates are offered tenure-track positions right out of grad school. More often than not, they either enter a Ph.D. program, like you, or start teaching part-time at various universities, like I did. Putting yourself in position to be offered a TT job requires a lot of work, and of course a little luck. You need to gain some experience teaching creative writing on the college-level, you often have to take on one-year visiting positions, and you certainly need to gain a lot of experience doing MLA and campus interviews. And that's where the prestige factor of the degree can often be very helpful. It can help you get your foot in the door at some of the earlier stages of your career. Now that I have tenure and book publications, my degree from Iowa is far less significant to me professionally, but early on, when I was struggling to get my foot in the door, it helped me out again and again. And I think that's something that applicants, especially those admitted to top ten programs, need to consider. Not just the value of the degree in terms of obtaining a tenure track job, but also the value of the degree as they're trying to gain the type of experience they'll need to obtain a tenure-track job.L.G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05910204904989517986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-60825385124803193832010-09-02T11:25:40.639-07:002010-09-02T11:25:40.639-07:00L.G.,
Your point's well taken. And I'm no...L.G.,<br /><br />Your point's well taken. And I'm not necessarily in disagreement. As I mentioned above, "The only minor 'prestige' bumps one might get in securing a teaching job would be with an MFA from either an Ivy, the Writers' Workshop, or maybe (at a stretch) Michigan." I think your experience is in line with this, though maybe "notable" rather than "minor" bump would have been more appropriate. I'm thinking more of top 20 programs whose grads might not see that advantage: Hunter? Brooklyn College? Oregon? Florida? Indiana? I'm more suspect of whether these pedigrees open many doors in and of themselves -- I suppose it would have been fairer to say that there certainly is a point at which, when one has attended a less well-known program, where one is going to be disadvantaged as compared to someone with a top 20-program degree. I just think that most situations are where one person went to Hollins, one to UNLV, one to American, one to Emerson, and it's like, who has a huge advantage here? No one, really, so the committees look at pubs (as they would do anyway). No one's getting a job because of a twenty-spot rankings differential, it's just that certain programs have a special history and track-record: Again, the Writers' Workshop, Michigan, Brown, and Cornell might be special situations, and perhaps one or two others (Irvine in fiction, for instance, or, increasingly, Texas in any genre).<br /><br />S.Seth Abramsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08059849202129580100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-71296819001834742132010-09-02T11:25:04.273-07:002010-09-02T11:25:04.273-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Seth Abramsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08059849202129580100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-59790288450580071702010-09-02T09:58:03.292-07:002010-09-02T09:58:03.292-07:00@LG
Thank you for your perspective. As someone who...@LG<br />Thank you for your perspective. As someone who plans/hopes to teach, this is simultaneously reassuring and discouraging to hear. I'll make the final verdict in April.FZAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11769818831464552021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-86879636940763242532010-09-02T09:55:30.241-07:002010-09-02T09:55:30.241-07:00@Maia
This is my first time applying. But in terms...@Maia<br />This is my first time applying. But in terms of a 'plan b'--- part of the reason I'm applying now is that I have a job, one that I like, that I can hopefully continue if things don't work out MFA wise. I think that my getting in is about 50-50 just based on what I have seen/heard from others who have applied and not gotten anywhere. I think that after a certain point the process really is sort of arbitrary. Though, the one thing I'm not sure about is whether I would try again. I don't think my writing will change/improve that much within a year. So my writing sample's quality will likely be the same. And I don't know that they're that many more schools I would want to go to that I'm not already planning on applying to this year. Of course, I won't really know the answer to that question until much later. And really I'm just hoping I get in this time around!FZAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11769818831464552021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-15410689720167927922010-09-02T08:58:54.353-07:002010-09-02T08:58:54.353-07:00Seth,
I would like to address your comment above,...Seth,<br /><br />I would like to address your comment above, as I think you might be underestimating the value of an MFA from a prestigious school when it comes to securing an academic job.<br /><br />Like you, I have a degree from Iowa, and I can tell you that this degree helped me enormously in my path to becoming a tenured professor of creative writing. How do I know that my degree from Iowa played a factor? I know because, even as a young adjunct instructor, I was given the opportunity to teach creative writing when similarly qualified colleagues were not; I was also able to secure several one-year full-time visiting writing positions with only a few publications; and I routinely made it to the final rounds of tenure-track job searches without a book publication and was eventually even offered a tenure-track job (my current job) without a book publication. Moreover, I can think of at least four of my Iowa classmates who were also offered tenure-track jobs before they had a book. And in case you're assuming that I'm speaking to you from the "dark ages," I can assure you that all of these things happened within the past eight to ten years.<br /><br />I know that the academic job market has become increasingly competitive--and you're right, it's very hard these days to get a tenure track job without a book--I do think that the prestige of the degree can be a "significant" factor. In addition to being on the market myself, I have also been the Chair of several tenure-track search committees for creative writing positions, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that applicants with degrees from places like Michigan, Iowa, Cornell, and so on, always caught my eye, especially if they also had impressive magazine publications. Having a book is always a big plus, of course, but it's not the only thing search committees are looking at. That is to say, they're not just looking at what the applicant has done, but also at what the applicant is likely to do in the coming years. In this way, a recent Iowa grad with publications in highly regarded magazines like the Paris Review or Ploughshares is often more attractive than a more seasoned candidate with maybe one or two unremarkable books. The reason is that with the latter applicant you know exactly what you're getting, whereas with the former there's the suggestion of "promise" or potential" for truly great things. And for a lot of universities and colleges, especially those in less desirable locations, there's something very alluring about the idea of securing a young writer at the start of his or her career, before he or she has become "big," so to speak.<br /><br />Again, I am speaking only from my own experience, but I can honestly say that my degree from Iowa helped me at every stage along the way--from struggling adjunct to tenured professor--and though it wasn't the only factor, it certainly helped me get my foot in the door at times when I might have otherwise been ignored. <br /><br />Finally, I'm sorry this is so long-winded, but I hope my comments have provided some insight.L.G.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13215564152163323946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-43791136498146304652010-09-02T01:35:26.930-07:002010-09-02T01:35:26.930-07:00Hello, everybody,
I'm new to the site and hav...Hello, everybody,<br /><br />I'm new to the site and have three questions:<br /><br />1. Approximately what percentage of MFA applicants per year get rejected from programs across the board? Just skimming this mailbag, my unscientific impression is that nearly every other poster talks about this process as if they're veterans to it. What are the odds, literally, of getting into any program at all? Any ballpark estimates at least?<br /><br />2. If you are one of the posters here who applied to several programs before and got in nowhere or nowhere you found suitable, what was your "Plan B"? I know this is a personal question, but I myself am in the midst of drafting Plan B's, and C's and D's, and would like inspiration.<br /><br />3. How important is previous publication to MFA admissions committees? I have never been published. Should I forget about applying to any, say, "Top 20" program?<br /><br />And: @Robin, who posted a question about SFSU a couple of weeks ago -- it isn't a well-funded program, but if you have the money I have heard great things about it. I took a Gotham workshop class in New York, and my instructor Evan, an SFSU alum, was a wonderful writer who brought in as guest speakers many of his wonderful writer MFA friends:<br /><br />www.evanrehill.com<br /><br />Thanks, everyone.STChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17968606784729938920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-16983956379073319062010-09-02T01:33:55.028-07:002010-09-02T01:33:55.028-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.STChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17968606784729938920noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-80242737906208397502010-09-01T23:57:14.131-07:002010-09-01T23:57:14.131-07:00Any other nonfiction MFA'ers have a hard time ...Any other nonfiction MFA'ers have a hard time finding good lit journals to publish in?<br /><br />George Mason's "Phoebe: a journal of literature and art" (http://www.PhoebeJournal.com) is now accepting submissions, hosting a monied contest, and sporting a brand new website. Check it out!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04680829056287178559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-68094043509193823612010-09-01T23:55:19.453-07:002010-09-01T23:55:19.453-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04680829056287178559noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-81129186138449138282010-09-01T23:42:05.788-07:002010-09-01T23:42:05.788-07:00There is more or less no prestige to be had in hav...There is more or less no prestige to be had in having an MFA, period. Nor does the MFA assist one with job prospects, unless one has a lot of publications to go with it. As to non-teaching employment, the MFA mostly gets ignored except to the extent it suggests you're creative. The most valuable MFA degrees in such contexts--though it's all relative--are degrees from schools with strong reputations generally (Brown University, Cornell University, University of Michigan, University of Notre Dame, Washington University at Saint Louis, and so on). The only minor "prestige" bumps one might get in securing a teaching job would be with an MFA from either an Ivy, the Writers' Workshop, or maybe (at a stretch) Michigan -- and the genre should be whatever you do your strongest work in. Generally, poets don't care where you did your MFA; fiction-writers barely do, and fiction agents somewhat do.<br /><br />S.Seth Abramsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08059849202129580100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-52166693379478690152010-09-01T22:47:10.815-07:002010-09-01T22:47:10.815-07:00Are there any thoughts on whether having an mfa in...Are there any thoughts on whether having an mfa in fiction vs poetry is better in regards to job prospects and prestige?LA Falconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08672764656237574786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-29653504032469710732010-09-01T20:13:42.483-07:002010-09-01T20:13:42.483-07:00KayBay,
Absolutely -- every program is far more d...KayBay,<br /><br />Absolutely -- every program is far more diverse than its critics think. Iowa's poetry program was (I can say from experience) stunningly diverse. I'm sure USC is much more open than many think, and indeed often the range of a program's applications helps determine the range of its program cohort -- as USC gets more apps, it will almost certainly get more aesthetically diverse, and I'd wager they'll see a big spike in apps this year (though it'll still be a huge under-the-radar value for applicants).<br /><br />Cheers,<br />S.Seth Abramsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08059849202129580100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-65121449006375838052010-09-01T19:03:56.300-07:002010-09-01T19:03:56.300-07:00Thanks for the advice, Seth. Are most programs ope...Thanks for the advice, Seth. Are most programs open to styles other than their own, even those leaning towards a particular aesthetic? I've "heard" (and by that I mean I have read a post on this blog, hehe) that even Brown has traditional writers and Iowa has experimental-ish ones. In other words, is it okay to apply to a program because they're pretty dern awesome, regardless of supposed aesthetic? By the way, I'm beginning to hate that word...kaybayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09656442399144949657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-52694105388232688822010-09-01T18:47:50.548-07:002010-09-01T18:47:50.548-07:00KayBay,
Another option, re: USC, which really doe...KayBay,<br /><br />Another option, re: USC, which really does have very strong funding and is under-applied to (i.e. a great "find" for applicants), is to send your favorite (i.e. representative) work, and see what happens -- if they accept you, they pass the "test," i.e. they're interested in your favorite work and willing to work with you on it. If you send "traditional" work you're setting yourself up, because if admitted they'll be expecting to work with you on a type of work you're less enthusiastic about. I think programs don't try to "change" applicants from the sort of writing that got them into the program in the first place -- they try to help them augment what it's doing and make it more effective at what <em>it</em> (and thus the poet or novelist or memoirist) wants to do.<br /><br />Cheers,<br />S.Seth Abramsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08059849202129580100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-42854335026408037452010-09-01T17:33:59.056-07:002010-09-01T17:33:59.056-07:00I think I've also settled on a list (it's ...I think I've also settled on a list (it's changed since I last posted it and will likely change by time I start sending stuff in :)):<br /><br />Iowa<br />Notre Dame<br />Florida<br />Florida State<br />Ohio State<br />Bowling Green<br />West Virginia<br />North Carolina State<br />Virginia Commonwealth<br />Michigan<br />Vanderbilt<br />Penn State <br />Alabama <br />South Carolina (I'm debating about this one because I've heard it likes a very traditional aesthetic. While I would send my most traditional work, I'm worried that I'd feel stifled)<br /><br />Might knock one off and put Syracuse on there but they haven't emailed me back to answer my question about re-applying, so I'm not sure yet. We'll have to wait and see :)kaybayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09656442399144949657noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-39560649112762965032010-09-01T12:26:41.940-07:002010-09-01T12:26:41.940-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.Sean Patrick Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12983153943854063247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-56946651076750264622010-09-01T12:26:15.399-07:002010-09-01T12:26:15.399-07:00Looks like Rutgers Newark will not be taking appli...Looks like Rutgers Newark will not be taking applications for non-fiction for 2011. Not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but I saw it today on their website.<br /><br />http://mfa.newark.rutgers.edu/howtoapply.htmSean Patrick Cooperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12983153943854063247noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-9837250678559241092010-09-01T09:45:25.988-07:002010-09-01T09:45:25.988-07:00@vegascetic
I think the rankings matter (or don&#...@vegascetic<br /><br />I think the rankings matter (or don't matter) depending on what you plan on doing with your mfa/why you're getting an mfa. For those that are using the mfa primarily as a chance to work for 2-3 years on their writing then the only rankings that probably matter are funding ones. But some people want to use the mfa to hopefully get one of those very competitive teaching jobs than ranking does matter. A school with good post-grad placements and a strong reputation will likely give the candidate more of an edge. <br /><br />But regardless of that, I'll tell you where the rankings are very useful for me: showing in one nice neat spreadsheet how long the programs are, how big they are, and whether they have more of a poetry slant or a fiction slant, which are all things that matter to me regardless of how highly ranked or well known a program is.FZAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11769818831464552021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-50158487815622626902010-09-01T05:11:20.214-07:002010-09-01T05:11:20.214-07:00@myself
*Artists need roofs over their heads. Sor...@myself<br /><br />*Artists need roofs over their heads. Sorry, was caffeinated.<br /><br />@vegascetic<br /><br />You're not an asshole.<br /><br />Anyhoo, I think this is my final list of schools. 10...10 is a nice round number, I think<br /><br />Wash U St. Louis<br />Vanderbilt<br />U Michigan<br />Iowa<br />U Wisconsin, Madison<br />UC San Diego<br />U of Illinois Urbana-Champaign<br />Indiana U Bloomington<br />U Minnesota<br />Virginia Techxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05814493825367047841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-16074292957764211532010-09-01T03:55:02.710-07:002010-09-01T03:55:02.710-07:00Snap. I meant "insinuated." I hate typos...Snap. I meant "insinuated." I hate typos. <br /><br />@x Yeah. Funding/stipends play heavily on my mind, as well. And the thing is, it would've anyway, ranking system or not. <br />end @x<br /><br />I think Fenza was trying to go for something akin to "When it comes to persuing art, money shouldn't be an issue" which is certainly one way of looking at things, I suppose, except that in this case it sorta plays on the whole "you must be able to sacrifice all in order to become a true artist" stance, which is where it starts to seem less about the rankings and more of a defense of people who have spent (or are willing to spend) money on the MFA.<br /><br />Which, actually, is totally fine. I'd defend someone's right to spend money on a MFA. (There are definitely worse things you could spend money on, that's for sure). But, why couldn't he just say that "It's okay to spend money on a program-- I did, and I'd do it again... Ps: I don't particularly agree with ranking MFA programs" and be on his way? I don't know. Maybe I just didn't like the way it was worded. Kinda snippy. But then again, the internet is inherently a snippy place.<br /><br />Will I keep going? I guess so. Does anybody care? Doesn't matter.<br /><br />I think arguments over rankings are based on the perceived importance of the rankings. In my opinion, rankings are something to look at, consider, et cetera, but it's not like I'm gonna base whether I apply to such and such a program based soley on rankings in a magazine. Just not gonna happen. Somewhat insulted that some think that's even a possibility. <br /><br />That said, the rankings aren't my favorite thing in the world, but they're interesting. Personally, I would like more of just a list-- not a ranking-- of schools and an approximate range of how much their stipends are, and perhaps additional info like class size and teaching load. I couldn't care less about post-grad placement, trends, ranking in general. But then, again, I could do this research myself, so I guess I could just stfu too.<br /><br />Sigh, I don't know. Mostly I'm just being an asshole because it's like almost 4 AM and I was trying to write stuff and it just wasn't happening so here I am eating triscuits and an avocado and typing like a jerk off. Good night.'11 MFA Drafthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12254989680148554986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-82274811905613927402010-09-01T03:54:48.868-07:002010-09-01T03:54:48.868-07:00Snap. I meant "insinuated." I hate typos...Snap. I meant "insinuated." I hate typos. <br /><br />@x Yeah. Funding/stipends play heavily on my mind, as well. And the thing is, it would've anyway, ranking system or not. <br />end @x<br /><br />I think Fenza was trying to go for something akin to "When it comes to persuing art, money shouldn't be an issue" which is certainly one way of looking at things, I suppose, except that in this case it sorta plays on the whole "you must be able to sacrifice all in order to become a true artist" stance, which is where it starts to seem less about the rankings and more of a defense of people who have spent (or are willing to spend) money on the MFA.<br /><br />Which, actually, is totally fine. I'd defend someone's right to spend money on a MFA. (There are definitely worse things you could spend money on, that's for sure). But, why couldn't he just say that "It's okay to spend money on a program-- I did, and I'd do it again... Ps: I don't particularly agree with ranking MFA programs" and be on his way? I don't know. Maybe I just didn't like the way it was worded. Kinda snippy. But then again, the internet is inherently a snippy place.<br /><br />Will I keep going? I guess so. Does anybody care? Doesn't matter.<br /><br />I think arguments over rankings are based on the perceived importance of the rankings. In my opinion, rankings are something to look at, consider, et cetera, but it's not like I'm gonna base whether I apply to such and such a program based soley on rankings in a magazine. Just not gonna happen. Somewhat insulted that some think that's even a possibility. <br /><br />That said, the rankings aren't my favorite thing in the world, but they're interesting. Personally, I would like more of just a list-- not a ranking-- of schools and an approximate range of how much their stipends are, and perhaps additional info like class size and teaching load. I couldn't care less about post-grad placement, trends, ranking in general. But then, again, I could do this research myself, so I guess I could just stfu too.<br /><br />Sigh, I don't know. Mostly I'm just being an asshole because it's like almost 4 AM and I was trying to write stuff and it just wasn't happening so here I am eating triscuits and an avocado and typing like a jerk off. Good night.'11 MFA Drafthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12254989680148554986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15642985.post-58262414824213832132010-09-01T03:54:39.398-07:002010-09-01T03:54:39.398-07:00Snap. I meant "insinuated." I hate typos...Snap. I meant "insinuated." I hate typos. <br /><br />@x Yeah. Funding/stipends play heavily on my mind, as well. And the thing is, it would've anyway, ranking system or not. <br />end @x<br /><br />I think Fenza was trying to go for something akin to "When it comes to persuing art, money shouldn't be an issue" which is certainly one way of looking at things, I suppose, except that in this case it sorta plays on the whole "you must be able to sacrifice all in order to become a true artist" stance, which is where it starts to seem less about the rankings and more of a defense of people who have spent (or are willing to spend) money on the MFA.<br /><br />Which, actually, is totally fine. I'd defend someone's right to spend money on a MFA. (There are definitely worse things you could spend money on, that's for sure). But, why couldn't he just say that "It's okay to spend money on a program-- I did, and I'd do it again... Ps: I don't particularly agree with ranking MFA programs" and be on his way? I don't know. Maybe I just didn't like the way it was worded. Kinda snippy. But then again, the internet is inherently a snippy place.<br /><br />Will I keep going? I guess so. Does anybody care? Doesn't matter.<br /><br />I think arguments over rankings are based on the perceived importance of the rankings. In my opinion, rankings are something to look at, consider, et cetera, but it's not like I'm gonna base whether I apply to such and such a program based soley on rankings in a magazine. Just not gonna happen. Somewhat insulted that some think that's even a possibility. <br /><br />That said, the rankings aren't my favorite thing in the world, but they're interesting. Personally, I would like more of just a list-- not a ranking-- of schools and an approximate range of how much their stipends are, and perhaps additional info like class size and teaching load. I couldn't care less about post-grad placement, trends, ranking in general. But then, again, I could do this research myself, so I guess I could just stfu too.<br /><br />Sigh, I don't know. Mostly I'm just being an asshole because it's like almost 4 AM and I was trying to write stuff and it just wasn't happening so here I am eating triscuits and an avocado and typing like a jerk off. Good night.'11 MFA Drafthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12254989680148554986noreply@blogger.com