No need to be cantankerous for cantankerousness's sake. Let those sleeping dogs lie. Or those recently awoken dogs wipe the crud from their eyes. Or AGREE to DISAGREE!
No, you're not the only person who is slightly neurotic about the Brown waitlist. I also find it strange that though we have heard from every other top program about acceptees, we have heard nothing from Brown. Maybe people who go to Brown are too cool for this blog?
I find the discussion about the aesthetics of programs quite interesting. If I thought more about this question before applying, I wouldn't have wasted my money on Iowa, a program that seems quite monolithic in what kind of writing is accepted. Frankly, from what I can gather, I don't like their aesthetic, though there are some writers that I respect there, like Mary Robinson.
Anyway, good luck to those who are still waiting or who have gotten in, and to those who didn't get in anywhere -- don't give up. There are people who get into the top programs and then still fail or struggle. It's not really about what program you go to at all. A writing program won't instill a good work ethic or give you talent. It's just a jumping off point.
@ Meredith: Smoke-oi reminds me of my ex-boyfriend, who loved to hear himself talk and would engage in "debate" for hours on end, completely unwilling to concede that there might be a reason no other person in the room agreed with him.
Don't try to tell me that my decision to pursue a fully-funded program is "on par" with choosing one that's going to hamstring me financially for years to come.
Smoke-oi just wants to argue, you guys. Even with our powers combined, we won't convince Smoke-oi otherwise.
To take our minds off the lose-lose situation we're in right now, here's a cute gif of a toddler throwing his cat into water. Spoiler alert: TWIST ENDING!
@ BROOKLYN CUNY applicants: This sucks. I got a very definitive answer: if you were not already called with an acceptance or waitlist, you have been rejected. they are butt-slow to update their online status update, so even if your status there is not yet showing rejection, you can more than assume it's coming: this is over and done with. i hope the closure is a relief, though. this one stings, as it's the only affordable program i applied to in NYC. sorry, fellow rejects. (and more congrats, admits--what an awesome program, amazing faculty, would love to be you!)but, brooklyn should be taken to task for waiting, what, a month and counting to notify rejects? and the priciest application fee? special shout out to brown, my first rejection, for getting all notifications out on the same day and for doing it early.
@ TNS The New School applicants: NOT bad news necessarily if you haven't heard back yet. i left a msg and a very nice man called me back quite promptly and looked up my app. he said he would be able to tell me if a decision was made (though not what the decision was), but that mine was only under review. he said they are rolling and get in a few decisions a week (a few acceptances a week, i'm assuming). notifications are done by mail. notifications will go at least through this week, if not for a few weeks after that. that sucks if you have multiple acceptances already to decide btwn and are just waiting to hear, but if you're like me and are down to hoping for just one piece of good news, then keep hope alive.
No I didn't. I already turned that spot down. For me, it'll come between UNCG, MD and UTK because of funding/faculty/etc. etc. Unless, of course, I get into Houston.
Any poets want to exchange portfolios? I've got a lot of plane and empty hotel-room hours in my future and would love to print out a huge stack of work and take it with me.
Amanda and Kate - I actually spoke with a friend of my brother's who was in this program and she said that it was a great place if you wanted to create space to become a better writer, and not if you wanted to gain publishing contacts. In terms of funding, Judy indicated that my best bet would be to try to secure part-time work in the university and get a tuition waiver that way... email me for more info LIZSQUARED [AT] GMAIL [DOT] COM.
listen, it's just that in my two years of lurking/posting, i've (and many others i'm sure) have seen this more-or-less same argument rage on and seth coming under attack. i don't profess to know enough about stats or seth's methods or anything...too many numbers give me a blocked-brain.
i think most of us are capable of making our own choices ourselves and of judging what information and what opinion to accept and apply to our circumstances.
but there is an amazing amount of information seth has compiled. let's not forget that. does this information hurt us? i think not. is this information going to make my decision for me? i think not. it will inform my decision, as will my interactions/exchanges with faculty, students, etc of the programs. but the final decision will be mine.
if you're not into the columbia debate, skip this post. but i'm bored at work and i'm diving in.
we have formed something of a community on here, and i find it really distasteful that some of you have put columbia in another stratosphere as if anyone who goes there is fiscally irresposible, stupid and not a writer of competitive talents.it's like--go away, we're not interested in your concerns. i probably won't get in, but i don't think ppl who do should be made to feel like lesser applicants and can't share their enthusiasm on this board. yes, i know there is a debate about this on other threads, but it's acceptance season on this thread.
@ Smoke Oi: i really appreciate your comments. Seth's work is well-noted and appreciated as well, but after reading these blogs for several months, i'm taking all seth's opinions on columbia with a grain of salt. seth has a lot of debt, as he has noted openly, from law school and perhaps other programs as well (guy has what, 2? 3? advanced degrees, which is impressive but also kinda sketchy), and i think he is directing a lot of his anger about debt onto columbia, b/c it's a big rich school that is making an amazing program unavailable to many ppl, which admittedly sucks. let's all keep in mind, though, that no one at the School of the Arts or the writing program has decided that they just don't want to give out funding. they are just not being given the funding by the powers that operate the columbia endowment--the writing program is not a money-making operation and not a research opp for the school. all major univerisities support their harder sciences financially over their liberal arts, and it's usually up to alumni donations to make up the difference. it seems to me that most of the schools with strong funding are getting it from donations and not from their endowments, either, which would make sense. if you've visited columbia, you will see that the interior of Dodge Hall is not the fancy biz school, law school, or engineering school. it is in a world of its own, and to be frank it looks rather shabby, though charming, which indicates nothing about the quality of learning, teaching, and writing.
I would be beyond thrilled to get in to columbia. first of all, it is tough to get in and anyone admitted should be proud. for the general public and publishers, columbia has more name recognition than almost anywhere else, no matter the ranking, and there are very, very few other schools who can compete with the faculty, and location offering teaching opps and literary opps. as we've seen on this board, ppl turn down a lot of schools for funding issues, including private and state. not sure why all the hate is being directed at columbia--because you think it should be able to pay for it? i'm sure the writing program has been trying to convince the endowment board of that for years.
i think columbia is a great choice and ppl who choose to go there are not dumb for doing so. i don't think funding is a good way to judge the quality of a school; i do think it's a good criteria for making decisions, but it's also worthless to go to a program that is sub-par and not worth even two free years of your life. i don't buy any of the arguments that columbia's funding issues are making it a lesser quality program, because i met ppl there while visiting who had turned down other funded offers. that said, i don't have $100k lying around either and wouldn't expect to anytime soon after getting an MFA (barring that million-dollar, book-turned movie deal i'll be getting, obviously). so: how do ppl afford this? would love to hear from current students, particularly those who are not getting parental support to attend (which also doesn't make you a lesser writer or something to be ashamed about). particularly, how much time do you get to write while working even part-time to support your cost of living?
Thanks for the Brooklyn and TNS news. These NYC schools have been pretty damn remiss about keeping us in the loop. At this point, I assume I'm not in, but I'd really like confirmation so I can get on with making other life decisions.
but there is an amazing amount of information seth has compiled. let's not forget that. does this information hurt us? i think not. is this information going to make my decision for me? i think not. it will inform my decision, as will my interactions/exchanges with faculty, students, etc of the programs. but the final decision will be mine.
You seem more mature than many of the posters here. Please gather as much information as possible before making a decision.
After a weekend of freaking out, I grew a pair and called again.
I now feel confident enough to say that I have been accepted to UCR for fiction. The coordinator told me that all that's pending is approval from the graduate division, which means that as long as my transcripts and such check out, I should be golden. Which is great as I wasn't smart enough to apply to multiple schools this year.
M.Swann, "With our powers combines"!? You're awesome. End of story.
Columbia. I have stories about Columbia. One night, when I was almost killed, I was on the Columbia campus. The next day, my friend told me it wasn't a knife that fell, but a frozen stick of butter. It wouldn't have punctured me had I been in the way. I could've sworn it gleamed, though. There was Jim Beam was involved.
Congrats to all of today's acceptances - from Columbia and NYU, down to Miami and all the way across to the Bay Area. It's nice to see.
As someone who has two graduate degrees and is applying to MFA programs for a third, I have to object to one of your observations above. There is absolutely nothing 'sketchy' about having a number of advanced degrees. Some of us just like to learn/develop ourselves in an academic setting!! In contrast, sketchy = guy wearing only a trench coat flashing fifth graders. I'd like to think there are better adjectives to describe those of us who have multiple interests that we pursue at the graduate level....
I was hiking the Appalachians and...well, it was scary. Columbia came after me with a hatchet. It might've been Gary Oldman or John Malkovich or Gary Sinise, come to think of it.
I don't mind the debate. I just scroll through it. Now there's good advice for all you young'ns. If there's some thread here that you don't like, just skip over it. No sense getting riled up over things that's not your concern.
Moneywise people make do on a combination of workstudy, freelance writing, p/t jobs, loans and fellowships. It's tough, it's a demanding program and the financial pressure makes harder. But if you thrive under pressure, you'll probably do well.
Not to be all blog-moderator up in this piece, but it was Susan who called Seth "sketchy." I see Susan's point: highly educated people who offer reasonable, clearheaded advice for thousands of applicants seeking graduate degrees are a lot like the types who meet under my back porch to smoke crack: sketchy.
hi, that was me who used the phrase sketchy, not nadiya, i don't want her to get in trouble. i don't mean to denigrate your achievements at all, either...or, imply that you flash little children? (i probably would use a stronger term for those ppl than "sketchy"). i would love to get a million degrees too, but i'm sure you have had a lot of ppl ask questions about why you can't just pick something, or why you are taking yourself out of the wage-earnign workforce for years pursuing one discipline and then another, which does seem characteristic of a certain flightiness or committment-phobia. doesn't mean you're a bad person!!! and good for you for pursuing your interests in spite of the skeptics. i am curious about ppl who can afford to do this, though, as fewer and fewer traditional PhD programs even are offering fiscal support.
i referred to seth's multiple degrees in that sense only to point out that, hey, guy is a smart dude, but has racked up lotta debt, which is crippling and it can make you bitter and opinionated about ppl who would go into such a thing willingly (i'm not currently in debt, so i have no such excuse, i was just born this way).
Not to be all blog-moderator up in this piece, but it was Susan who called Seth "sketchy." I see Susan's point: highly educated people who offer reasonable, clearheaded advice for thousands of applicants seeking graduate degrees are a lot like the types who meet under my back porch to smoke crack: sketchy.
There are legitimate objections to Seth's information sources (i.e. his website) and his motives are at least worth questioning. I don't think you should automatically dismiss criticism of Seth.
Everytime Columbia comes up on the blog, I think of that wife on Modern Family, the one married to Jay (formerly Al Bundy). Her name's Gloria, and I love how she plays up her Colombian accent with caricatural relish. Especially how she licks the word "Colombia" from her lips: "Dat's not how we do thiings in ColuhhmBia." Good times.
I wasn't planning on commenting right now, as I was just taking a quick browse through looking for today's big Monday Acceptances -- Congrats, Austin! Our poetry daddies are sending us out into that big old world to make our fortunes! Congratulations also @Abbie & Sigma & Sam! @Yarduni, you may or may not already know this, but Columbia has a TON of Israeli students. A lot because of the degrees offered through the Jewish Theological Seminary's joint Columbia program. But also a lot of Israelis choose Columbia after their army service. You may or may not find this community helpful, since those guys party like the world is on fire. I love them! But I find them exhausting -- there is no art film or underground party or random, European alt-country band that those guys won't have the scoop on and build some event around.
@ Susan: As someone who double-majored in college, then got an MA in one discipline and am now about to get an MFA in another, I can say that it is rather offensive to hear someone else being called "sketchy" for this. I can speak only for myself, but I don't think getting another graduate degree makes me commitment-phobic or flighty. It means that I have more than one thing I'm passionate about and that the first thing didn't pan out as I thought it would.
I think that there's a big difference between obtaining multiple degrees as a matter of consequence and obtaining multiple degrees because you fear being in the workforce or are afraid of committing to any one discipline.
Additionally, everyone on this board is trying to get multiple degrees, so I don't really think it's fair to single out those who have one or two more. Not everyone follows a linear path to their occupation and knows exactly what they want at the outset, nor should they.
@ Nadiya - whoops, sorry for the mix up. Guess I'm not the best at scrolling.
@ Susan - no hard feelings. I'm actually not flighty at all, just driven. Also, far from independently wealthy, just resourceful. Sometimes people talk to me about the 'real world', whatever that is. I think whatever we can make a life out of that feels right to us is real enough.
@ Woon - You found me out (sort of). My guilty, self-indulgent pleasure of late has been watching old episodes of 'American Gothic'. Lots of trench coats in episode wardrobes - along with scrunchies, baby-doll dresses, and jeans that went up just past the waste line. What were we thinking in the 90's??
E-mailed ASU last week and still no word... I know they were on break, but should be back now... hmm.
@phillywriter
I'm in for fiction at LSU and will very likely accept... but I'm pretty sure "Wee Meathead" was in for fiction as well and was planning on declining, don't know if he/she has officially done so yet, so there may be a spot opening up.. I'll be rooting for ya!
@amanda I glanced at the pw speakeasy forum and didn't see any Vanderbilt poetry acceptances posted for this year. But maybe you can entice an accepted poet out of the woodwork over there? The PM option is a benediction :-)
On the subject of multiple advanced degrees, there are only two types of people that make me roll my eyes:
1. Multiple MFA peeps. First poetry, then fiction. Or fiction from one school, then another fiction from another school. My god. If you've got one MFA, please just move on.
2. People who got a Bachelor's in one field, then a Master's in another field, then either another Master's or Ph.D in a third field, back-to-back-back. If there's some interval between degrees with work experience and some attempt to nurture/develop that field, then I can appreciate and respect it.
But there are many many exceptions to the above. For example, if you're hot, then all is forgiven.
@ Susan - For the record, I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with people choosing Columbia. Columbia has an amazing faculty, and I would have loved to work with some of those people. If you love it, then go for it!
I agree with Nadiya. Use the rankings as you will, but they're not the be-all-end-all for most people (and they shouldn't be). We all have our own priorities.
For me *personally* - and this is not an anti-Columbia sentiment - I couldn't justify going into debt when there are so many programs that would keep me out of debt. I would rather travel or buy a house with the money I'd be using to pay back student loans. I would rather not get an MFA and travel than get an MFA and stop traveling. Those are my priorities, but I realize that's not the same for everyone.
@Smoke-oi - PLEASE don't bring the Columbia fight to this blog! Proselytizing isn't what this blog is about.
With that said, I'm gonna stupidly comment Re:Columbia $, especially @Peaquah and your comment about Columbia vs. a fully-funded offer like Cornell's - I'm considering offers from Michigan, Alabama, NYU and Columbia right now. Because so much of my research data has come from word-of-mouth, from this blog and P&W, I hadn't expected Columbia's offer to be viable. But, right now, it's the only offer that will allow me to keep my current, highly comfortable standard of living. This considers the fully-funded, standard packages from Michigan and Alabama, which include stipends. $100,000-$124,000 in debt for Columbia, I guess, is true if you don't get any fellowship funding at all and if you're already a New Yorker (who won't qualify for Columbia housing). But I qualify for Columbia housing and I was offered fellowship funding.
According to my research, getting my own apartment (as opposed to sharing a place with strangers) would cost me about $1,000/month in Ann Arbor and about $600/month in Tuscaloosa. In Ann Arbor, apparently, I wouldn't need a car. I'll confirm this during my visit this week. In Tuscaloosa, after visiting, I see that I absolutely will need to also factor in the expense of a car. I currently live in a grad dorm at Columbia, where I pay just about $750/month ($3,000/semester, $2,500/summer, with no utilities or extra costs because it's a dorm). I live in a suite in which I have my own bedroom and bathroom, but I share a kitchen with 7 filthy f*ing suitemates. I live at 113th & Broadway, with the campus gates starting a block away at 114th & Broadway. So I don't have the expense of a car.
I currently have a part-time, weekend job at an investment bank, doing Excel, PowerPoint and Word. This job is the real difference between the New York offers vs. Ann Arbor and Tuscaloosa. I would be a full-time student/poet at Michigan or Alabama. I would have to cut back, dramatically, on my expenses but I would receive an income just from doing things related to my art. At the New York schools, I would have to keep my part-time job which, I think, would keep me from being (or at least feeling like) a full-time artist. But I could continue to roll hella strong, with my organic-food-eating taxi-taking drinks-buying lifestyle, because my part-time job (the kind of job that only exists in NYC) pays three-times Michigan's stipend and six-times Alabama's -- PART TIME. It seems to me like the living, eating and driving costs at Alabama would mean I'd need to take out loans. Although, Michigan's stipend seems like it would comfortably cover living and eating. Whereas, at Columbia, I wouldn't need loans as a grad student, just as I haven't needed them as an undergrad. NYU doesn't offer subsidized grad housing, their two grad dorm options are $9,000/semester and $11,000/semester. So, at NYU, I would need to add the expense of commuting from an outer borough into Manhattan and also have to spend a lot more on basic housing than at Columbia.
My development as a poet is my main focus, in terms of choosing an MFA program. So I don't think it's the best idea, for me, to get both degrees from the same institution. And I believe that working with Joel Brouwer and Peter Streckfus, at Alabama, could help me challenge myself more and move into new places with my writing. I haven't even met Thylias Moss and Laura Kasischke at Michigan, yet!
Anyway, money isn't my key decision factor. But Columbia's unexpectedly competitive fellowship offer makes the idea of staying in my economic and artistic comfort zone more appealing than I wish it was.
@Rhizobium - The poetry manuscript that I submitted was almost all forms. I included a sestina, a villanelle, rhymed couplets, a sonnet, a prose poem, simple quatrains, series poems, and even a Psalm. But I wouldn't call myself "formal." I see myself as recognizing the tradition and then subverting it.
I have to say, thus far, Cornell has the very best rejection letter going. They made me feel as though it was only right that I got rejected because I was too good for them. Heard from Hunter this morning, via email, which started me drinking. On my third rum-punch and signed up for a Hollis Gillespie class on e-books.
when pondering the question of whether or not an MFA is the right path i always think of the movie 'the savages' when linney jumps out of bed and says, "i have an MFA! this is ridiculous!"
At first, many people thought you were a tit. What with your stellar GRE scores etc. But you humor and (strange) insight has kept this board interesting and entertaining!
My manuscript was certainly a mix. I have done some reading, and asking around with people who are or have been readers at universities. Even if you are a formalist, all formed poems are not necessarily recommended. A mix is good. True to your voice is always good.
I just got the no-funding email from UNH as well (I'm in for fiction). I'm curious: have any of the first year admits here gotten offered funding? Or a tuition remission?
Also, @megan I think I am going to go to the prospective student day. It sounds fun! Anyone else who's going, drop me a line at nattyish at gmail.
@ pogrator: I hadn't thought about posting an appeal on PW. It's worth a shot.
@ Memphis peeps: I will be there for a visit sometime between monday and wednesday next week if anyone wants to coordinate visits. Jan is still on vacation, but I'll be calling one of the other people to ask about class times and such tomorrow morning.
@MFAGuy - I loved taking the GRE. The days leading up to it, it felt like the Super Bowl for me. I believe that's the attitude one must have for all things. Otherwise, why bother?
oh please, sketchy is not an offensive word. and to be offended over something as silly as a blog poster calling you sketchy because you did something like pursue multiple GRADUATE degrees in a non-linear fashion, which most ppl would consider sketchy (obvi, i understand that PhDs have to have a master's first in most cases) is simply ridiculous. get offended b/c someone calls you a slur or throws a drink on you. not b/c of a blog.
the only thing offensive on this blog about the use of sketchy is that someone thought it was an appropriate adjective to describe a chi-mo (child molester, i speak in shorthand in person, too). who deserve a far stronger term.
please note i speak mostly in jest, too, and don't mean to waste anyone's time by being offensive.
also, for full disclosure, i double-majored, applied to MFA programs in writing and separately in film, and it's def. b/c i'm flighty and commitment phobic. (and thought i would get rejected a lot, which is true)
OMG!!!!!! I'M WAITLISTED AT NOTRE FREAKING DAME!!! Apparently, there was a miscommunication (shame, shame for telling me I was not admitted). But I just got a letter telling me I was waitlisted! I'm almost crying. I likely won't be admitted, but still!!
I did not know about all the Israelis. Thanks for the info!
It's well known that there's a big Israeli community in Manhattan in general, and that's good to know, since I'm sure I'm going to rely on some of those guys for support. Generally though, I hope I won't get sucked too deep into a homogenous Israeli existence. I have American roots I want to discover, and one thing I love about New York is the diversity.
Right now, the big issue, as has been stated here, is money. Just to put in my two cents - if I don't get any aid I can't go to Columbia. I'm really hoping for something though, since my boyfriend was accepted at Princeton and Cornell and we'd like to be at least close to each other.
Thanks all for your wishes and good luck to all. I think this process is making us all brighter and focused, if somewhat deranged, people.
I did my undergrad at UTK and I had nothing but great experiences with the faculty/cw department. I am championing it here because I don't think the program gets the credit it deserves...even if it is an MA and not and MFA. If you have any q's about the program or Knoxville, don't hesitate to ask!
Okay, not to split hairs over this, but a flasher in a trench coat - or whatever the modern attire would be - is not the same as a child molester (different dysfunctions, really). Mind you, I'm not defending either - both are pretty f---ed up!!
Let's be 4 real 4 serious for a minute. You are a Columbia University MFA student, defending your program. I get it. Hopefully you chose the right program, taking into consideration all the things this blog (and Seth's research) wants you to take into consideration: location, funding, cohort quality, pedagogical opportunities, blah blah blah. (Sorry)
The propulsive ideology of this blog, Suburban Ecstasies, and Driftless House is one of transparency: pulling back the curtains MFA programs have operated behind for years. Transparency has caused awkwardness for a program like Columbia, high-ranked and operating under Ivy League auspices, because it asks uncomfortable questions: why is Columbia one of the most, if not the most, expensive MFA programs in the country? Why doesn't Columbia arrange funding packages like its sister-sister (sorry) program, NYU, a couple miles south? How many people can afford $120,000 for an art degree with few career prospects at its end? These aren't unreasonable questions, Smoke-oi, and they're certainly ones people accepted into Columbia should be asking (excepting the rare fellowship offers, like Trilbe's). The answers will vary, obviously, based on the askers (James Francos).
I think you're politicizing the data in the same way people politicize global warming (i.e., observable phenomena we then incorporate into our worldviews/political ideologies). The Columbia funding situation is verifiable. We have anecdotal evidence on this blog from other Columbia MFAers who regret the cost of their degree, especially after discovering other programs offer full funding. We have evidence from the people getting Columbia acceptances right now: Columbia wants $100,000 upfront, in federal loans. That's a bitter pill for a lot of people, Smoke-oi, and especially for the people on this blog, who are almost certainly better-informed about the MFA world than others who've done less research and who might be making their decisions by the ancient (GST-grad school time) AWP data.
But let's be honest, Smoke-oi. You aren't coming on here in the spirit of fair debate. You've tipped your hand in your attacks on Cornell and your name-calling (the poster who refers to a multiple-degree holder as "sketchy" is more "mature?"). Let's be honest, Smoke-oi! You probably aren't going to change your mind, and that's OK. But remember: I don't go around your blog and tell you how to blog it.
I (really) hope you love it at Columbia! Say hi to James Franco for me!
@Kaybay-congratulations! and if you think that the good wishes of all the people here won't push you off the list, well, then, that's a bit of magical thinking!
Congrats! Now you gotta tell them to turn that waitlist note into an acceptance letter! They don't get to make you freak the eff out like that for free!
Also, all day today, I've been pretending that Smoke-oi is the smoke monster from LOST. I'm not invested in the Columbia convo at all, but it's definitely made the back-and-forth much more entertaining.
I'd just like to add that my offer from Columbia, which remits most of my tuition, is also much more competitive than the offers I've gotten from two other programs, even factoring in living expenses. Yes, NYC can be ridiculously expensive. But there are also ways to live cheaply here. Yes, there are things about Columbia's program that give me serious pause. But of the places I've been accepted to so far, I think each one has serious pluses and serious minuses. Ok, done talking about Columbia now.
HOLY MOTHER OF JESUS, KAYBAY!!!!!!!!!! I will shoot someone for you, to get you in! Yes, I will f*ing shoot somebody, girl! Oh. My. Touchdown. Jesus! CONGRATULATIONS!
One more quick, unrelated thing... James Franco is actually very nice. He had Andrew Sarris's Hitchock class, with two of my close friends, last semester, on the same night that I had a class in Dodge Hall. He was very self-deprecating, the only student who was dedicated enough to actually show the f*ck up for his discussion sections and he would talk to anybody about anything. Super smart and super kind.
hahaha this is true, and you are right. i would much rather run into the flasher than the chi-mo. wasn't pee wee herman a flasher? so at least you could maybe get an autograph. or you could make fun of the flasher's wee wee size. i think they do still wear trenchcoats, yes?
I just want to say that Seth has been an amazing influence in my decisions to apply to the schools I did this time around. His research and time spent compiling data has been amazingly helpful. I am grateful for his work, and though I came to each decision along the way carefully and internally, I wouldn't have felt nearly as confident without his numbers and knowledge.
That's all. :) Congrats to all of today's acceptances!!
Received the LSU waitlist letter for fiction today, although it appears I am not alone. I'm rooting for everyone. Let's all get in. Yeah, that sounds good.
I had to remove myself from this blog to stop from obsessing, so sorry for a long stretch of absence.
On a serious note, my older sister and my neighbor actually did get flashed by a guy in a trench coat walking home from school when they were kids! The freakiest thing about it was that they told me and a couple of other kids, but that none of us told any adults because WE were ashamed. Strange to think about now.
yes, a thank-you to seth is once again in order for all the time spent on compiling information. i have found a lot of great information from the related sites about funding, program values, etc. i don't agree with some of the inferences that seth makes from the hard data, but that's for everyone to evaluate individually.
good luck to everyone who will soon be coming home to the mail!
Columbia = scam. My two cents, and I'm not looking for anyone else's opinion.
Also, congratulations to everyone who got in, and for everyone who gets to sit back and make decisions--I'm finally there! My completed list for poetry:
why is Columbia one of the most, if not the most, expensive MFA programs in the country? Why doesn't Columbia arrange funding packages like its sister-sister (sorry) program, NYU, a couple miles south? How many people can afford $120,000 for an art degree with few career prospects at its end?
NYU offers half the credit load as Columbia. Cost per credit is probably similar. And what MFA program offers serious career prospects?
These aren't unreasonable questions, Smoke-oi, and they're certainly ones people accepted into Columbia should be asking (excepting the rare fellowship offers, like Trilbe's). The answers will vary, obviously, based on the askers (James Francos).
My point precisely. And the phoney ranking system is obfuscating the decision making process.
I think you're politicizing the data in the same way people politicize global warming (i.e., observable phenomena we then incorporate into our worldviews/political ideologies).
Nope. Opposite problem. Seth's data is biased. His data comes from his own website, and his own mysterious information gathering (which is never sourced)
The Columbia funding situation is verifiable. We have anecdotal evidence on this blog from other Columbia MFAers who regret the cost of their degree, especially after discovering other programs offer full funding. We have evidence from the people getting Columbia acceptances right now: Columbia wants $100,000 upfront, in federal loans.
No one here is denying it's an expensive program. But I encourage you to think beyond sticker price. Two years is a long time.
That's a bitter pill for a lot of people, Smoke-oi, and especially for the people on this blog, who are almost certainly better-informed about the MFA world than others who've done less research and who might be making their decisions by the ancient (GST-grad school time) AWP data.
Don't you think there are people here who googled MFA rankings? Don't they deserve to hear a different side of things?
But let's be honest, Smoke-oi. You aren't coming on here in the spirit of fair debate. You've tipped your hand in your attacks on Cornell and your name-calling (the poster who refers to a multiple-degree holder as "sketchy" is more "mature?").
Nadjia didn't call anyone sketchy. I haven't insulted anyone. The Cornell comparison was legit. (You mean to say Cornell is offers a similar experience to Cornell?
I came here to answer questions about my program. Obviously I'm not welcome. Goodbye.
@Trilbe - I too had a manuscript with many forms: villanelles, sonnets, a pantoum, a strict rhymed couplet, and most were fairly "conventional" even though I tended to twist and shape some of the poems as I felt needed. I completely agree with taking a moment to nod at tradition, as I feel it's important.
@LHH - Yes, I certainly agree that a variety can show more to a reader. When putting together my best work I happened to have a manuscript with a good amount of villanelles and sonnets with a smattering of a few less restricted poems. More formalized poetics tend to suit me best.
I know I was looking for a program that would have a formalist on board, and I'm just lucky that I've been accepted to one that has a very enthusiastic formalist.
Congrats on more good news today! I hope I'll be able to have my final tally in a few weeks...
Alright Kaybay, I am so proud of you! Way to go, seriously, that is fantastic!
@ Trilbe - good points all. I think you're right that already living in New York and having a great job will make a *huge* difference for you. However, I'm still a little confused about your tuition situation. Are you saying that the fellowship would cover tuition so much that you wouldn't have to take out loans to cover it? Or is it the fellowship plus the job that will make it work? Either way, it'd be amazing if you could swing it!
I'm seriously not trying to disparage anyone who got into Columbia - it's a big coup. And if you can work it with no debt that's even better. It is interesting to hear your take on it since you're comparing "fully-funded" programs with Columbia, and Columbia is coming up competitive.
see? you guys are scaring the only actual columbia grad student we have off the board, and now those of us interested in columbia can't get first-hand information so easily. i think we can all agree that most of us will not be able to afford/not want to go to columbia for various reasons. but for those that do, please offer them the same respect you would to everyone else on this blog who is getting an acceptance and excited about it and hoping to make an informed decision based on their own criteria. making the choice to attend akin to falling for a scam is disrespectful and not in a funny way. why don't we just say "congrats" and if you have actual information, add it? didn't your mothers teach you, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything? i hope ppl with columbia news won't be leery of the backlash now to share it in the coming weeks/days.
my sincere congratulations to everyone who has been accepted anywhere, particularly to your schools of choice, and to those who have made a decision. best of luck to all waitlisters and those still hoping for acceptances.
have you noticed the students they produce and their success rate? i can't tell you how many books i've read in recent years with an author's bio that reads:
Also wait listed at the New School today, through snail mail, addressed a week ago. While it's great that it's not a "no," at this point, a straight answer would almost be better. ha. Sigh.....what to do, what to do. Is anyone else in this dilemma? SLC needs to know by April 12...the 12th!! Geez...
WOOT! Congratulations! I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!
Am I the only one here who was admitted to Columbia College's MFA program in fiction? I'm going to visit next week. I'm really excited (and a little nervous).
How do you open your acceptance/waitlist/rejection letter envelopes? Do you tear into them or use a dainty letter opener?
Does anyone make an effort to smell the stationery therein? I do. It's very revealing. It would be too much to assume the scents are of Steve Tomasula or Lan Samantha Chang. But I don't think it's a stretch to say it's of their administrative assistants, like say, Deb West. I think it should be bottled.
I think Virginia makes too much of their fellowship application: "A modest single sheet." The first time I read that, I thought, how pretentious. Other schools have simple one-pagers, too, you know. And they don't make a big deal out of it.
I don't have much to add except to say that if I came on here -- which I've never done -- and made some kind of unsubstantiated claim about a program, like Prof. ________ molests children, it would be reasonable to question my motives. But the TSE data is just that: data. There's no "Seth's ranking" anywhere on TSE. My personal opinion exists and is reified in precisely zero of the rankings on my website. And to say that "all the data comes from my website" is a paradox -- the website can't produce the data that appears on it. All TSE data is public data. All research I do is based on public data taken from MFA promotional materials or, in some instances, communications directly from the programs. And as an attorney who's a member of two bar associations and represented 2,000+ criminal defendants in two states without even a single ethics complaint, yes, I take umbrage to being called sketchy and having folks say questioning my motives is okay.
Last time I had contact with a Columbia rep it was with Ben Marcus -- on this very board. He said (sounding a little like Smoke) "Your admissions data for Columbia is wrong!" I replied: "Ben, I got that data from the Columbia website. And here's the link. [NB: I provided the link to him in-message]. If the data there is wrong, please provide the correct data and I will update TSE immediately."
Ben's response? He disappeared from the blog and never returned. So no, my motives will only be "up for debate" when there's a scintilla -- an effing scintilla -- of evidence that my data is fraudulent or collected in bad faith. Until you have word one to say on that topic besides wishful thinking -- i.e., a vain hope that smearing me baselessly because I gather applicant opinions on programs (not my own) in a public space -- then yes, you probably should check your own integrity first and consider what class it displays to slander someone you don't even know whatsoever like it's going out of style.
I think we've messaged eachother before, but I'm in at CCC for poetry. So is a gal named Chelsea. I will be visiting there in the coming two weeks. Have you heard anything about funding yet?
@Seth - I liked the overall tone and rhythm of your post, Seth, but I would delete the last phrase "like it's going out of style." It's clicheish. I would incorporate some lion metaphor. It's the Columbia Lions, after all. Just my $0.02.
Seth: You gather "applicant opinions" and present them as unbiased data. It isn't statistically sound. Whether you mean to or not you are using contaminated data. Same goes with data extracted from promotional literature, if you can't find coherent quantifiable factors across your entire data set, then your product is bad.
@Hey all, haven't been on here too much the past several days--call it blog detox--but wanted to say thanks already for all of the congratulations sent my way. Congrats to all you recent acceptees, waitlisters and soon-to-be'ers. :) (Just made that up, I think).
@Rachel, you mentioned to me, Thursday I think it was, that you had been accepted to EWU, but ideally hope to go to SLC (sorry if I f'd that up). Though I still like their program, a couple days later I got a nice and excellent offer from Georgia College & State, so I'm leaning heavily in that direction. I did start to get my heart set on the idea of living out West, though. How about you?
@Katie--is your brother an undergrad at Gonzaga? (I got into EWU, if you remember). You know, I didn't even realize until after I got word that Gonzaga and EWU are just 15 minutes from each other--ells you how much I know. How are things looking for you? Best of luck!
@Zoulou: So Alaska Fairbanks is a done-deal for you? I thought that's what you had said--I know you said it was your #1 choice, basically. At one time, I was going to apply there, but I guess I felt I had to keep my list somewhere under 20, could barely keep up with 12. Yikes.
@Ashley Brooke: thanks for the congratulations (I have this thing where I don't like saying "congrats," odd I know) over on DH. Us Cleveland"ish"/ers must stick together! I guess. Haha. (The "Clevelandish" moniker is a new one to me--awesome!) Btw, starting to have amnesia here, you did get into Texas State, right? I have a friend--from my UNCW bfa program--you also just got into Texas State, also for fiction. She's posted/lurks here once in a while, but I forget her s/name as of the moment. I know that, at least for her, funding was to be decided on soon, so I hope that goes or has gone well for you.
Sorry for the long-ass post everyone. My bad (ok to say that still??)
P.S. Hope I didn’t add to any mass confusion about repeat names with the simple “Katie” and “Rachel.” I know there’s only one Zoulou.
And one scintilla of impropriety that immediately jumps out at me is your consulting business. Now, I don't believe that this is why you're doing this, but it certainly sullies your data.
I have not heard about funding; I was going to call today, but then I realized this is their spring break. But I'm planning on visiting the financial aid office personally while I'm there.
I'm also an out-of-stater for fiction at UNCG. Honestly, I have no idea about the funding. It sounds like they're doing their best, but who knows how things will turn out.
If you want to correspond a bit, my email is: juliakpatt [at] gmail [dot] com.
JimfifeOH, I tend to switch back and forth between congrats and congratulations... mainly so that I don't overuse one or the other. It's carpal tunnel prevention, you know... Yes, I was accepted at Texas State but I have yet to hear about funding. I believe I should find out sometime this week. Good luck to your friend as well and congratULATIONS this time for your great offer at GCSU. It seems to be a program on the rise.
I truly do appreciate your work on here. But, we are all opinionated ppl, and the point of the blog, as i understand it, is to share information that may be helpful. Part of this, to me, means offering insight on what makes a program valuable in certain areas or less valuable in others--subjective things depending on personal criteria, and often anecdotal. The rankings you have compiled, based on data, are subjective even if every item of hard date you have compiled is factually correct--and i believe it is, because i can see you're quite thorough. Certain categories, such as funding, are given greater weight than other things, and points or however you weigh them create a #1, #2, etc. What's been helpful to me is to look at how schools rank based on these categories, and not necessarily the overall rank, because you may weight certain categories more heavily than I do for my own goals. it's not a questioning of your motives, but of what categories you value more than others. You've been always very upfront about valuing funding, and that's not the most important factor to everyone. That's subjective, and no one should be shut down for valuing these subjective things differently.
Also, again, i am responsible for the original "sketchy" comment, not at all intended as a slander on your professional work ere. it refers not to the quality of data or your motives, which are overwhelmingly altruistic and helpful to clearly tons of MFA applicants, but to how I see the subjectivity of anyone who has multiple graduate degrees in different unrelated areas. I do think that's sketchy in that it makes me question how seriously i should take that person's opinions on what subjective factors to value in going to graduate school. If you're willing to do multiple degrees, yes, I am inferring certain personality traits that do not mean you're a bad person or anything like that, but that you're certainly making decisions about attending graduate school in a different manner than someone like me, who ultimately wants to get one graduate degree, pursue that field only, and stick with it.
i think that's reasonable. i think the sensitivity and tempers flaring on here about why everyone should make decisions the same way is not reasonable.
re: Columbia I'm rich, and I still didn't apply there.
re: UVA pretension I'm rich, and I applied there because I want to learn words like modest.
@Emma (both of you) On a serious note, I'm assuming Emma 1 that turned it down had a TA. and does Emma 2 have one? I want to go to Montana so bad, but obviously funding is an issue. and Emma 2 - if you're going, would you like to exchange a story? It'd be nice not reading a Beginning Fiction Workshop Undergrad story.
Okay, I'm off to go count my money. Poor people - stop applying to rich people schools.
All right, this is getting pretty lame. What's wrong with being a consultant and charging for help based on ones expertise? Lot's of people and businesses do it. We live in a capitalist society where one needs to make money to survive - so, we do things (that hopefully we like) and charge for them or get paid for them. Big f---ing deal!
Also, I think if you really went to Columbia you'd be describing everything you love about the program instead of lambasting Seth and his ranking system. You're basically providing an argument against all ranking systems without offering a constructive alternative. Why tear something down without offering solid information as an alternative?
I've posted before about the worth of healthy criticism about some of the assumptions made here, and while I'd like to say your criticism has been constructive and should be respected, I can't.
Seth, on behalf of lurkers everywhere, your information in invaluable and appreciated. How about we change the topic now. Let's bring back the warm sense of community y'all had going for you.
I'd like to hear a little about people pursuing CW PhDs after the MFA. What are your reasons for doing this? Thought process? Would you have planned your MFA experience differently knowing you'd be applying to PhDs? Anyone heading into an MFA this fall with the idea that they'd like to swing it into a PhD?
Susan, the actual final rankings are (as I've been lead to believe) not some sort of compilation of the other categories but are in fact strictly the numbers of times that a school is listed on an applicants list of schools that they have or are planning to apply to. Therefor, funding is only as important as it is to applicants... and obviously it's pretty important.
I'm currently in a quandary of sorts with my fiction acceptances. I've been making my pro-con lists, but would really like to get outside opinions and insight on each of them during this process, specifically on aesthetic, size, community, cost, environment, literary magazine, and, well, just about anything else. Here's what I'm working with (listed in order of acceptance only):
. CalArts - financial aid packets coming around April 1st. (Would not need to relocate, so housing costs are not a worry.) . UNC Wilmington - up for a TAship that comes with $14k/year + tuition remission first year, in-state tuition following years. . Hollins - little over $10k grant.
Clearly, being able to work in other genres or in an experimental capacity is an interest of mine :)
Thank you, all! I'm trying to make a smart, timely decision so that a couple spots for waitlisters!
If you would rather email me privately, my email address is: esthetic dot ink at gmail dot com
I'm on the 10 yr plan haha. I applied to MFA programs knowing that I will most likely apply to PHD programs. Why? Well, post-grad fellowships and lectureships etc. are crazy competitive, and I want to give myself options. Also, I think it's pretty well established that unless you have AT LEAST a couple of well-received books under your belt ALONG with some other honor (i.e. Pushcart/O. Henry/ BASS/ Stegner etc.) that an MFA alone won't do much except to tell an English dept. that you can only teach one or two kinds of classes (and that you aren't a "team player"). Another reason I'm already studying for the GRE Lit exam and brushing up on my Latin and French is because a PHD program (at least if it's a CW/Lit one) will give me more time to work on another manuscript, publish more, build up and diversify my teaching resume, and really, really disappoint my family (which is always fun - "Ma, guess who's REALLY not going to be a doctor now?"
not sure which ones you mean? there are a number of rankings seth has compiled. i think these are the most recent from this year, with overall rankings and ranking by number (as in 1, 2, etc.) by categories such as funding, etc.
Hi all, I have been silently following the blog for a week now. Before that, I was in what I affectionately call "only rejection purgatory", and would have been too crazed to follow. I've been accepted to Sarah Lawrence for fiction (last monday), which was SUPER exciting!! But today, I came home from work with a small envelope and a wait-list from Notre Dame!!!!!!! What a wonderful surprise! So now.... SLC has to be committed to by 4/12, and what would the likelihood be of that wait list turning into an acceptance? Probably not much, right?
I realized today that I did very little research on Notre Dame, other than the funding. What's their reputation? Do people leave there happy and improved writers? Does the name mean anything?
I should probably just go ahead and acept SLC, which is a top choice of mine anyway... of course this is pending notification from a few programs still holding out on me... (presumed rejections)
@phillywriter- you still have your drinking buddy, no worries;)
@yay kaybay, me too!
Congrats to all on your acceptances and wait-lists- to anyone still waiting, I'm sitting here pulling for you, and for what it's worth...I only needed the one.
Anyway, do any of you have thoughts? Funding is an issue, as per usual...
Alas, I continue to languish in purgatory... As far as I know, no fiction acceptances for Ole Miss have gone out yet, though we're officially past last year's reported (TSE/DH) notification date... fingers crossed!
Susan, Those are the rankings that I am talking about. If you look under "votes" you will see that that is how the overall rankings are decided. The other rankings are offered independently of those... Otherwise Texas at Austin would be #1, since it achieved #1 in every individual objective category.
All right, this is getting pretty lame. What's wrong with being a consultant and charging for help based on ones expertise? Lot's of people and businesses do it. We live in a capitalist society where one needs to make money to survive - so, we do things (that hopefully we like) and charge for them or get paid for them. Big f---ing deal!
Do you think climate studies funded by oil companies are trustworthy?
Also, I think if you really went to Columbia you'd be describing everything you love about the program instead of lambasting Seth and his ranking system.
I don't need to sell Columbia. If anyone has a question about it, I'll answer as best I can.
You're basically providing an argument against all ranking systems without offering a constructive alternative. Why tear something down without offering solid information as an alternative?
No, I'm specifically criticizing Seth's ranking system.
I've posted before about the worth of healthy criticism about some of the assumptions made here, and while I'd like to say your criticism has been constructive and should be respected, I can't.
Congrats Denn1985!! I'm glad to hear that there are others! I do want to know why the receptionist initially told me I didn't even make the short list, haha, but oh well, it made for a nice surprise when I got that letter! I almost threw it out thinking it was a rejection.
@KJ - Sorry Katie-Jane, it really is true that the waiting is the hardest part. Waiting for one school, which notifies late, is doubly stressful.
oh, i see. like a most popular school to apply to based on applicants reporting. kind of a circular thing--each year more ppl apply to wherever more ppl applied last year? that means, of course, we have no idea what criteria each applicant used, and most applicants don't report, so the overall rankings are even more wookily subjective. the categories are really helpful, because those appear to be from concrete data. likewise, things like location and literary aesthetic are going to be subjective to each applicant and can't be ranked.
the rankings are a great starting point. the blog, when it's behaving, is also a great source of info, especially to get insider news on where your favorite authors are moving around to, etc. i'd also be interested to know how many admitted students, by program, have been published in a literary journal before they applied. i wonder how much this improves your chances--either because it means you're pursuing more editorial feedback, or because it makes you look better to an admission committee. as a first time applicant, i was unaware of how many ppl i'd be competing with who were already published, which i've never even attempted. thoughts?
From what I've heard, having a few publications under your belt really does nothing in terms of impressing a school or improving your chances. I think the only way that it can give someone an advantage is circuitously - if you've already started the process of submitting your work to journals, then you've probably had some rejections and learned to revise a little. But one doesn't necessarily learn to revise well from the submission process - most journals do not comment on rejected work - so all in all I'd say it makes very little difference. The ad coms don't really care if your work impressed someone else. They care if they like it, and if it seems like the kind of thing they want to work with for 2-3 years.
Hey, when you get into Notre Dame (when! not if!) you'll be lucky enough to attend school with a good comp-sci friend of mine. But I'd very much suggest staying away from him. He's sketchy. (...not in the flashing way. In the traditional creeper sense :).)
I don't think ad-coms care about prior publications, the single most important thing is the writing sample. My only advice there, and I can only speak for fiction, is to make sure you have complete story arc.
I applied with a novel excerpt - three chapters, but I think the ideal submission would be a really tight, well edited short story. If you can pull of a good short story I think you could get into most programs.
Then next most important, and critical for smaller, specialized programs like Cornell, Brown etc. would be your personal statement. Here the goal would be showing you would benefit from teaching undergrads, or using the CAVE system or whatever.
@kaybay - yay! I'm so happy to hear it :) I love your posts, and I was really sorry to see you leave before - it's great to see you back! Congratulations.
@jimfifeOH - yay, the only Zoulou! Haha, yeah, I'm still pretty much set for UAF... I'm really just delaying sending in the official word out of nerves. Eeek. It's scary to think - the future is coming! :P Let me know when you make a decision, yeah? Good luck!!
@Ena - wow, your list is incredible - congratulations!
P.S. James Franco is five kinds of fine... LOL, count me in on the theory that he is Woon. Sorry, Woon.
@MFAguy: Nada. I've been wondering if they're going to admit anyone this season...I think we saw a few fiction admits recently, correct? But no poets thus far. Hmm...
I don't think there's much to be gained from comparing your work to others except to feed curiosity during the application season. Unlike other graduate or professional programs, MFA applicants come from a more diverse background (in part b/c people develop differently as writers AND b/c it's an art degree with no real world constraints). There will be people who have just started writing, people who have published in journals a little, people who have published in journals a lot, and even people with books under their belt. I'd wager that admissions committees are looking for talent at all levels and in various forms (i.e. a very promising writer art 23 vs. a very talented writer at 35 are two different beasts who are going to bring different perspectives, knowledge, and skill sets to a workshop)
@kaybay - Congratulations! I don't want to be a Debbie Downer -- or, in my case, Doobie Downer -- but here's what I learned from reading posts in this blog on Notre Dame's waitlist:
1. You should, first of all, be proud of yourself. Of the hundreds of applicants, there aren't that many people on the waitlist. It is validation.
2. That said, the waitlist is DEEP. I've read accounts on this blog that it's 20 deep.
3. Notre Dame routinely tells people to go ahead and take whatever offer you've got from other schools because the chances are, you're not getting off the waitlist. In my calculations, at least 75% will not get off the waitlist. (I made up the 75% figure)
4. I'm on the Notre Dame waitlist and #3 is what their grad coordinator told me. (She did not mention 75%, as that is a magic number I pulled out of my ass)
5. I was surprised to get on the waitlist because the writing samples I submitted were not "experimental," though I could be if I tried. (Really, I could!)
I'm going to call the Notre Dame office tomorrow to see what number I am exactly. I'm not hoping for anything, as I am neither Irish nor Catholic.
Thanks Woon, I appreciate your honesty. I was actually already aware of the slim chances because I talked to someone on this blog who was waitlisted last year (#3 actually, heh), and did get accepted. I'm not expecting acceptance, but I'm still super juiced! Although I will say, I didn't expect to be waitlisted either. Oh, and I am Irish. I am Catholic. ;) Thanks!
@M.Swann, just for the record and in the interests of accuracy, smoke-oi didn't call the poster who used the word Sketchy mature. As far as i can remember, he called me mature and i never called sketchy. That was either someone else, perhaps jen? (If it's not Jen, apologies, but I can't scroll back a hundred posts or so with my crap computer).
(Also, I think I sound like Shaggy's song - It wasn't me :P)
OH MY GOD YAAAAAAY KAYBAY!!!! I am SO happy for you!
Remember what a waitlist really means: it means the school believes you are perfectly qualified to attend their institution, they just don't have room for you right now. In other words, ND likes your writing. I know we all want to be well-qualified AND have a seat to sit in come September, but remember that if they end up not having a seat for you, it's not because you're not good enough. They just had too many applicants this year.
No matter who Smoke-oi called more mature than many of the posters here, he still called, by implication, many of the posters here immature. To be fair, you're right: he called you, Nadiya, more mature than many of us. We do need to be fair* about who's being called more mature than everyone else.
I responded to Smoke-oi because he struck me as a provocateur--making the same destructive criticisms of Seth's data/methodology as other anonymous (Columbia) posters in the past. Never mind these criticisms overlook what the data is, what the data says, and what we're to take from it, the data. Never mind these posters refuse to acknowledge how the data has empowered thousands of applicants to make better-informed decisions pursuing the MFA degree. Where were we before the Suburban Ecstasies? Two meager lists that were anything but transparent in their methodologies; two meager lists that pared the reality--150+ MFA programs currently in the USA alone--to a slim dozen programs. I think we can mostly agree the new reality is better than the old one. Seth deserves credit for that.
Look you guys, I really hope everyone is happy where they end up. I really hope the best for everyone. Columbia is a good program. High fives, you guys!
Just an FYI, James Franco went to UCLA for undergrad. We shared several classes and I kind of know him (well I have his personal email and can bypass his publicist, so that's something). He's a smart, cool, and yes, a highly self-deprecating guy. Last I heard he's doing fiction at Columbia, film at NYU, and poetry at Warren Wilson. How he has the motivation, time and energy for this must be a Hollywood secret ;-)
@MFAguy: I'll keep my fingers crossed you hear some good funding news soon! And that they do, in fact, still like poets. We're not so bad once you get to know us.
Oh that's good news, encouraging. Since I don't care about my email address being on this blog, as I have posted 3 times, and this email is dying (sadly, when I graduate) in 2 months:
No matter who Smoke-oi called more mature than many of the posters here, he still called, by implication, many of the posters here immature. To be fair, you're right: he called you, Nadiya, more mature than many of us. We do need to be fair* about who's being called more mature than everyone else.
Wrong. I said that Nadiya's decision making process was mature, but I worried that this blog was the only source of information for many posters.
I responded to Smoke-oi because he struck me as a provocateur--making the same destructive criticisms of Seth's data/methodology as other anonymous (Columbia) posters in the past.
Anonymous posters such as Best American Poets or the AWP... the problems with his data are serious and render it meaningless.
Never mind these criticisms overlook what the data is, what the data says, and what we're to take from it, the data.
The data is wrong. Would you drive with a speedometer that said you were going 25MPH when you're really going 90MPH?
Never mind these posters refuse to acknowledge how the data has empowered thousands of applicants to make better-informed decisions pursuing the MFA degree. Where were we before the Suburban Ecstasies?
Seth's data is biased, people are worse off using his data than before. The only good thing (and it is a really good thing) Seth has done is underline well-funded programs.
Two meager lists that were anything but transparent in their methodologies; two meager lists that pared the reality--150+ MFA programs currently in the USA alone--to a slim dozen programs.
US News was imperfect but transparent, they sent reputation surveys to deans and faculty members across the country. Mind you the data is ancient ('96 vintage) but it's the only "clean" survey ever done. Atlantic Monthly's was basically arbitrary.
I think we can mostly agree the new reality is better than the old one. Seth deserves credit for that.
But is it?
Look you guys, I really hope everyone is happy where they end up. I really hope the best for everyone. Columbia is a good program. High fives, you guys!
@M.Swann: I didn't say fair. I said in the interests of accuracy. I don't want smoke-oi or anyone to come back and say, oh look you're misquoting me and this makes everything else you guys say suspect. I've seen many of these arguments get completely derailed by side-issues/non-issues like that.
I don't think I'm more mature than anyone else here. That wasn't what I said, that was what smoke-oi said. (What were you saying about agent-provocateurs again?) To you I say, please don't twist what I said into something else.
If I thought people on this blog were immature, I wouldn't engage with them. It's a blog. I can simply not log in.
2,525 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1601 – 1800 of 2525 Newer› Newest»smoke-oi, you remind me of my little brother. he's 11.
OMG YOU GUYS. Seth is a troll??
No need to be cantankerous for cantankerousness's sake. Let those sleeping dogs lie. Or those recently awoken dogs wipe the crud from their eyes. Or AGREE to DISAGREE!
Thank y'all and goodnight.
I think that James Franco is Reeeaall Talk.
@pogrator
No, you're not the only person who is slightly neurotic about the Brown waitlist. I also find it strange that though we have heard from every other top program about acceptees, we have heard nothing from Brown. Maybe people who go to Brown are too cool for this blog?
I find the discussion about the aesthetics of programs quite interesting. If I thought more about this question before applying, I wouldn't have wasted my money on Iowa, a program that seems quite monolithic in what kind of writing is accepted. Frankly, from what I can gather, I don't like their aesthetic, though there are some writers that I respect there, like Mary Robinson.
Anyway, good luck to those who are still waiting or who have gotten in, and to those who didn't get in anywhere -- don't give up. There are people who get into the top programs and then still fail or struggle. It's not really about what program you go to at all. A writing program won't instill a good work ethic or give you talent. It's just a jumping off point.
@ Meredith: Smoke-oi reminds me of my ex-boyfriend, who loved to hear himself talk and would engage in "debate" for hours on end, completely unwilling to concede that there might be a reason no other person in the room agreed with him.
Don't try to tell me that my decision to pursue a fully-funded program is "on par" with choosing one that's going to hamstring me financially for years to come.
When did I say that?
@amanda
hey, I dated him too! :) hahaha
Smoke-oi just wants to argue, you guys. Even with our powers combined, we won't convince Smoke-oi otherwise.
To take our minds off the lose-lose situation we're in right now, here's a cute gif of a toddler throwing his cat into water. Spoiler alert: TWIST ENDING!
@ amanda,
I think that your ex-boyfriend and my ex-boyfriend are the same guy!
Ha! re: Woon being James Franco. Though I'm pretty sure James Franco isn't married...
Laura T,
The original Real Talk or the copycat? Or... BOTH? Since he is getting multiple MFAs, maybe he is getting multiple blogger accounts, too.
Whoa, and Jillian Lauren too... this guy gets around.
@ Ashley Brooke,
Yes, that must be it! James Franco is the real Real Talk, the fake Real Talk, and Woon. And possibly a few other people.
Amanda,
Obviously he has to a cover story so that we don't figure out who he is and ask for autographs.
@ BROOKLYN CUNY applicants: This sucks. I got a very definitive answer: if you were not already called with an acceptance or waitlist, you have been rejected. they are butt-slow to update their online status update, so even if your status there is not yet showing rejection, you can more than assume it's coming: this is over and done with. i hope the closure is a relief, though. this one stings, as it's the only affordable program i applied to in NYC. sorry, fellow rejects. (and more congrats, admits--what an awesome program, amazing faculty, would love to be you!)but, brooklyn should be taken to task for waiting, what, a month and counting to notify rejects? and the priciest application fee? special shout out to brown, my first rejection, for getting all notifications out on the same day and for doing it early.
@ TNS The New School applicants: NOT bad news necessarily if you haven't heard back yet. i left a msg and a very nice man called me back quite promptly and looked up my app. he said he would be able to tell me if a decision was made (though not what the decision was), but that mine was only under review. he said they are rolling and get in a few decisions a week (a few acceptances a week, i'm assuming). notifications are done by mail. notifications will go at least through this week, if not for a few weeks after that. that sucks if you have multiple acceptances already to decide btwn and are just waiting to hear, but if you're like me and are down to hoping for just one piece of good news, then keep hope alive.
If this is all true, then who and where is dreux?!!
Re: Woon being James Franco...
I'm thinking the wife thing is just a cover...He is a good actor.
Internet Troll Personality Disorder
It's a question of motive.
Look. His MFA rankings are basically arbitrary. By all means save money if you can, just be careful you don't waste your time and money.
@inkli
No I didn't. I already turned that spot down. For me, it'll come between UNCG, MD and UTK because of funding/faculty/etc. etc. Unless, of course, I get into Houston.
Oops, I should have mentioned that the ITPD link goes to Encyclopedia Dramatica and is NSFW
I have to believe that Franco is less absurd than Woon.
Any poets want to exchange portfolios? I've got a lot of plane and empty hotel-room hours in my future and would love to print out a huge stack of work and take it with me.
If so, email me at mandasue at gmail dot com.
As for Dreux:
Anyone think he's the mysterious Michener acceptanced Seth and Driftless House keep mentioning?
the mysterious (errr... not so mysterious) michener acceptance is brad Smith
he posted his acceptance and thanked Seth for all his help, and recommended Seth's consulting
ASU fiction buddies - any news?
Of course there is room for debate. When something new is being said.
Nadiya,
Err... somehow this very moment feels like a bad time to publicize my e-mail address. ;-)
But if you post yours I'll e-mail you and we'll go from there.
S.
re. James Franco.
You nitwits.
But it was a good chuckle for the day. LOL!
@seth: Heh. Yes, not a good idea.
Here's mine : shabnam dot nadiya at gmail dot com
Amanda and Kate - I actually spoke with a friend of my brother's who was in this program and she said that it was a great place if you wanted to create space to become a better writer, and not if you wanted to gain publishing contacts. In terms of funding, Judy indicated that my best bet would be to try to secure part-time work in the university and get a tuition waiver that way... email me for more info LIZSQUARED [AT] GMAIL [DOT] COM.
Brad Smith and Dreux have the same numerological value in Kabbalah (no they don't).
@smoke-oi,
listen, it's just that in my two years of lurking/posting, i've (and many others i'm sure) have seen this more-or-less same argument rage on and seth coming under attack. i don't profess to know enough about stats or seth's methods or anything...too many numbers give me a blocked-brain.
i think most of us are capable of making our own choices ourselves and of judging what information and what opinion to accept and apply to our circumstances.
but there is an amazing amount of information seth has compiled. let's not forget that. does this information hurt us? i think not. is this information going to make my decision for me? i think not. it will inform my decision, as will my interactions/exchanges with faculty, students, etc of the programs. but the final decision will be mine.
if you're not into the columbia debate, skip this post. but i'm bored at work and i'm diving in.
we have formed something of a community on here, and i find it really distasteful that some of you have put columbia in another stratosphere as if anyone who goes there is fiscally irresposible, stupid and not a writer of competitive talents.it's like--go away, we're not interested in your concerns. i probably won't get in, but i don't think ppl who do should be made to feel like lesser applicants and can't share their enthusiasm on this board. yes, i know there is a debate about this on other threads, but it's acceptance season on this thread.
@ Smoke Oi: i really appreciate your comments. Seth's work is well-noted and appreciated as well, but after reading these blogs for several months, i'm taking all seth's opinions on columbia with a grain of salt. seth has a lot of debt, as he has noted openly, from law school and perhaps other programs as well (guy has what, 2? 3? advanced degrees, which is impressive but also kinda sketchy), and i think he is directing a lot of his anger about debt onto columbia, b/c it's a big rich school that is making an amazing program unavailable to many ppl, which admittedly sucks. let's all keep in mind, though, that no one at the School of the Arts or the writing program has decided that they just don't want to give out funding. they are just not being given the funding by the powers that operate the columbia endowment--the writing program is not a money-making operation and not a research opp for the school. all major univerisities support their harder sciences financially over their liberal arts, and it's usually up to alumni donations to make up the difference. it seems to me that most of the schools with strong funding are getting it from donations and not from their endowments, either, which would make sense. if you've visited columbia, you will see that the interior of Dodge Hall is not the fancy biz school, law school, or engineering school. it is in a world of its own, and to be frank it looks rather shabby, though charming, which indicates nothing about the quality of learning, teaching, and writing.
I would be beyond thrilled to get in to columbia. first of all, it is tough to get in and anyone admitted should be proud. for the general public and publishers, columbia has more name recognition than almost anywhere else, no matter the ranking, and there are very, very few other schools who can compete with the faculty, and location offering teaching opps and literary opps. as we've seen on this board, ppl turn down a lot of schools for funding issues, including private and state. not sure why all the hate is being directed at columbia--because you think it should be able to pay for it? i'm sure the writing program has been trying to convince the endowment board of that for years.
i think columbia is a great choice and ppl who choose to go there are not dumb for doing so. i don't think funding is a good way to judge the quality of a school; i do think it's a good criteria for making decisions, but it's also worthless to go to a program that is sub-par and not worth even two free years of your life. i don't buy any of the arguments that columbia's funding issues are making it a lesser quality program, because i met ppl there while visiting who had turned down other funded offers. that said, i don't have $100k lying around either and wouldn't expect to anytime soon after getting an MFA (barring that million-dollar, book-turned movie deal i'll be getting, obviously). so: how do ppl afford this? would love to hear from current students, particularly those who are not getting parental support to attend (which also doesn't make you a lesser writer or something to be ashamed about). particularly, how much time do you get to write while working even part-time to support your cost of living?
@LHH
Thanks for the BU update!
@Susan
Thanks for the Brooklyn and TNS news. These NYC schools have been pretty damn remiss about keeping us in the loop. At this point, I assume I'm not in, but I'd really like confirmation so I can get on with making other life decisions.
but there is an amazing amount of information seth has compiled. let's not forget that. does this information hurt us? i think not. is this information going to make my decision for me? i think not. it will inform my decision, as will my interactions/exchanges with faculty, students, etc of the programs. but the final decision will be mine.
You seem more mature than many of the posters here. Please gather as much information as possible before making a decision.
After a weekend of freaking out, I grew a pair and called again.
I now feel confident enough to say that I have been accepted to UCR for fiction. The coordinator told me that all that's pending is approval from the graduate division, which means that as long as my transcripts and such check out, I should be golden. Which is great as I wasn't smart enough to apply to multiple schools this year.
@ Wordshift-
I assume the same is true for you.
Speaking of Smokes, these cigarette books look awesome.
I'd say 20% of my enjoyment of a book comes from how handsome it (the binding, the design, etc) is.
@Jes
Why were you thinking of leaving Hollins?
I was admitted, so, looking for info good and bad.
M.Swann,
"With our powers combines"!? You're awesome. End of story.
Columbia. I have stories about Columbia. One night, when I was almost killed, I was on the Columbia campus. The next day, my friend told me it wasn't a knife that fell, but a frozen stick of butter. It wouldn't have punctured me had I been in the way. I could've sworn it gleamed, though. There was Jim Beam was involved.
Congrats to all of today's acceptances - from Columbia and NYU, down to Miami and all the way across to the Bay Area. It's nice to see.
@ Nadiya
As someone who has two graduate degrees and is applying to MFA programs for a third, I have to object to one of your observations above. There is absolutely nothing 'sketchy' about having a number of advanced degrees. Some of us just like to learn/develop ourselves in an academic setting!! In contrast, sketchy = guy wearing only a trench coat flashing fifth graders. I'd like to think there are better adjectives to describe those of us who have multiple interests that we pursue at the graduate level....
Nobody wears trenchcoats in 2010.
Re. death by Columbia
I was hiking the Appalachians and...well, it was scary. Columbia came after me with a hatchet. It might've been Gary Oldman or John Malkovich or Gary Sinise, come to think of it.
re. Columbia
I don't mind the debate. I just scroll through it. Now there's good advice for all you young'ns. If there's some thread here that you don't like, just skip over it. No sense getting riled up over things that's not your concern.
Susan -
Moneywise people make do on a combination of workstudy, freelance writing, p/t jobs, loans and fellowships. It's tough, it's a demanding program and the financial pressure makes harder. But if you thrive under pressure, you'll probably do well.
Lucas Two here.
I asked a couple of pages ago, but I'll ask again because it got lost in the shuffle:
To the UNCG Fiction Folks Who Have Been Accepted:
Are you in-state? I'm trying to gauge if an out-of-state applicant has much of a chance, what with the budget crisis and all.
Thanks to any who throw me a bone on this one.
Received a snail mail letter today stating that I'm on the waitlist for fiction at LSU!
No indication of how long the waitlist is.
Is anyone else waitlisted at LSU? Is anyone who was accepted in fiction there thinking about not going?
So now I have two waitlists but still no acceptances. Gotta keep hoping.
Congrats to all who've had good news since my last congratulatory post!
Hey Jen,
Not to be all blog-moderator up in this piece, but it was Susan who called Seth "sketchy." I see Susan's point: highly educated people who offer reasonable, clearheaded advice for thousands of applicants seeking graduate degrees are a lot like the types who meet under my back porch to smoke crack: sketchy.
It just makes sense.
Anyone hear from Mills or Saint Mary's?
Anyone figure out what was up with the financial aid notices from SFSU that were not accompanied by acceptances/rejections?
@ jen
hi, that was me who used the phrase sketchy, not nadiya, i don't want her to get in trouble. i don't mean to denigrate your achievements at all, either...or, imply that you flash little children? (i probably would use a stronger term for those ppl than "sketchy"). i would love to get a million degrees too, but i'm sure you have had a lot of ppl ask questions about why you can't just pick something, or why you are taking yourself out of the wage-earnign workforce for years pursuing one discipline and then another, which does seem characteristic of a certain flightiness or committment-phobia. doesn't mean you're a bad person!!! and good for you for pursuing your interests in spite of the skeptics. i am curious about ppl who can afford to do this, though, as fewer and fewer traditional PhD programs even are offering fiscal support.
i referred to seth's multiple degrees in that sense only to point out that, hey, guy is a smart dude, but has racked up lotta debt, which is crippling and it can make you bitter and opinionated about ppl who would go into such a thing willingly (i'm not currently in debt, so i have no such excuse, i was just born this way).
Not to be all blog-moderator up in this piece, but it was Susan who called Seth "sketchy." I see Susan's point: highly educated people who offer reasonable, clearheaded advice for thousands of applicants seeking graduate degrees are a lot like the types who meet under my back porch to smoke crack: sketchy.
There are legitimate objections to Seth's information sources (i.e. his website) and his motives are at least worth questioning. I don't think you should automatically dismiss criticism of Seth.
Jen - it was Susan and not Nadiya who talked about Seth's sketchiness or ummm the fact that he has two or three advanced degrees and is in debt.
@ M. Swann --
those cigarette books are AWESOME, but I'm kind of appalled at which authors they chose. One tin of white male colonialists for 42 pounds please!
-- the Other Emma
@ xavier
Nothing from Mills yet over here. Apparently there was an acceptance in poetry last Friday, according to DH.
Xavier:
I emailed SFSU about the financial aid confusion on Friday. Still haven't heard back from them. I'll let you know when (if) I do, though.
Gah, I can't wait till this whole process is over.
Everytime Columbia comes up on the blog, I think of that wife on Modern Family, the one married to Jay (formerly Al Bundy). Her name's Gloria, and I love how she plays up her Colombian accent with caricatural relish. Especially how she licks the word "Colombia" from her lips: "Dat's not how we do thiings in ColuhhmBia."
Good times.
I wasn't planning on commenting right now, as I was just taking a quick browse through looking for today's big Monday Acceptances -- Congrats, Austin! Our poetry daddies are sending us out into that big old world to make our fortunes! Congratulations also @Abbie & Sigma & Sam! @Yarduni, you may or may not already know this, but Columbia has a TON of Israeli students. A lot because of the degrees offered through the Jewish Theological Seminary's joint Columbia program. But also a lot of Israelis choose Columbia after their army service. You may or may not find this community helpful, since those guys party like the world is on fire. I love them! But I find them exhausting -- there is no art film or underground party or random, European alt-country band that those guys won't have the scoop on and build some event around.
re. Colombia
Paula Garces. "Maria" in "Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle." Oh lordy...
@ Susan: As someone who double-majored in college, then got an MA in one discipline and am now about to get an MFA in another, I can say that it is rather offensive to hear someone else being called "sketchy" for this. I can speak only for myself, but I don't think getting another graduate degree makes me commitment-phobic or flighty. It means that I have more than one thing I'm passionate about and that the first thing didn't pan out as I thought it would.
I think that there's a big difference between obtaining multiple degrees as a matter of consequence and obtaining multiple degrees because you fear being in the workforce or are afraid of committing to any one discipline.
Additionally, everyone on this board is trying to get multiple degrees, so I don't really think it's fair to single out those who have one or two more. Not everyone follows a linear path to their occupation and knows exactly what they want at the outset, nor should they.
@K
Feel free to shoot me an email at eatingappalachia at gmail dot com
It's my project email. I'll get back to you through that.
@ Nadiya - whoops, sorry for the mix up. Guess I'm not the best at scrolling.
@ Susan - no hard feelings. I'm actually not flighty at all, just driven. Also, far from independently wealthy, just resourceful. Sometimes people talk to me about the 'real world', whatever that is. I think whatever we can make a life out of that feels right to us is real enough.
@ Woon - You found me out (sort of). My guilty, self-indulgent pleasure of late has been watching old episodes of 'American Gothic'. Lots of trench coats in episode wardrobes - along with scrunchies, baby-doll dresses, and jeans that went up just past the waste line. What were we thinking in the 90's??
I'll shut up about all this now.
re. "sketchy"
"sketchy" gets a bad rap. I like "sketchy." it makes me smile.
@ Hannah
E-mailed ASU last week and still no word... I know they were on break, but should be back now... hmm.
@phillywriter
I'm in for fiction at LSU and will very likely accept... but I'm pretty sure "Wee Meathead" was in for fiction as well and was planning on declining, don't know if he/she has officially done so yet, so there may be a spot opening up.. I'll be rooting for ya!
Informed today of no funding at UNH for me. ugh!
Only good news was my book review got accepted for publication.
@amanda
I glanced at the pw speakeasy forum and didn't see any Vanderbilt poetry acceptances posted for this year. But maybe you can entice an accepted poet out of the woodwork over there? The PM option is a benediction :-)
re. multiple advanced degrees.
On the subject of multiple advanced degrees, there are only two types of people that make me roll my eyes:
1. Multiple MFA peeps. First poetry, then fiction. Or fiction from one school, then another fiction from another school. My god. If you've got one MFA, please just move on.
2. People who got a Bachelor's in one field, then a Master's in another field, then either another Master's or Ph.D in a third field, back-to-back-back. If there's some interval between degrees with work experience and some attempt to nurture/develop that field, then I can appreciate and respect it.
But there are many many exceptions to the above. For example, if you're hot, then all is forgiven.
@ Susan - For the record, I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with people choosing Columbia. Columbia has an amazing faculty, and I would have loved to work with some of those people. If you love it, then go for it!
I agree with Nadiya. Use the rankings as you will, but they're not the be-all-end-all for most people (and they shouldn't be). We all have our own priorities.
For me *personally* - and this is not an anti-Columbia sentiment - I couldn't justify going into debt when there are so many programs that would keep me out of debt. I would rather travel or buy a house with the money I'd be using to pay back student loans. I would rather not get an MFA and travel than get an MFA and stop traveling. Those are my priorities, but I realize that's not the same for everyone.
I got the LSU Waitlist Fiction letter today as well. Same thing: no indication of how long the list is.
Woon, I don't think I've mentioned yet how much I enjoy all of your posts. :)
@Smoke-oi - PLEASE don't bring the Columbia fight to this blog! Proselytizing isn't what this blog is about.
With that said, I'm gonna stupidly comment Re:Columbia $, especially @Peaquah and your comment about Columbia vs. a fully-funded offer like Cornell's - I'm considering offers from Michigan, Alabama, NYU and Columbia right now. Because so much of my research data has come from word-of-mouth, from this blog and P&W, I hadn't expected Columbia's offer to be viable. But, right now, it's the only offer that will allow me to keep my current, highly comfortable standard of living. This considers the fully-funded, standard packages from Michigan and Alabama, which include stipends. $100,000-$124,000 in debt for Columbia, I guess, is true if you don't get any fellowship funding at all and if you're already a New Yorker (who won't qualify for Columbia housing). But I qualify for Columbia housing and I was offered fellowship funding.
According to my research, getting my own apartment (as opposed to sharing a place with strangers) would cost me about $1,000/month in Ann Arbor and about $600/month in Tuscaloosa. In Ann Arbor, apparently, I wouldn't need a car. I'll confirm this during my visit this week. In Tuscaloosa, after visiting, I see that I absolutely will need to also factor in the expense of a car. I currently live in a grad dorm at Columbia, where I pay just about $750/month ($3,000/semester, $2,500/summer, with no utilities or extra costs because it's a dorm). I live in a suite in which I have my own bedroom and bathroom, but I share a kitchen with 7 filthy f*ing suitemates. I live at 113th & Broadway, with the campus gates starting a block away at 114th & Broadway. So I don't have the expense of a car.
I currently have a part-time, weekend job at an investment bank, doing Excel, PowerPoint and Word. This job is the real difference between the New York offers vs. Ann Arbor and Tuscaloosa. I would be a full-time student/poet at Michigan or Alabama. I would have to cut back, dramatically, on my expenses but I would receive an income just from doing things related to my art. At the New York schools, I would have to keep my part-time job which, I think, would keep me from being (or at least feeling like) a full-time artist. But I could continue to roll hella strong, with my organic-food-eating taxi-taking drinks-buying lifestyle, because my part-time job (the kind of job that only exists in NYC) pays three-times Michigan's stipend and six-times Alabama's -- PART TIME. It seems to me like the living, eating and driving costs at Alabama would mean I'd need to take out loans. Although, Michigan's stipend seems like it would comfortably cover living and eating. Whereas, at Columbia, I wouldn't need loans as a grad student, just as I haven't needed them as an undergrad. NYU doesn't offer subsidized grad housing, their two grad dorm options are $9,000/semester and $11,000/semester. So, at NYU, I would need to add the expense of commuting from an outer borough into Manhattan and also have to spend a lot more on basic housing than at Columbia.
My development as a poet is my main focus, in terms of choosing an MFA program. So I don't think it's the best idea, for me, to get both degrees from the same institution. And I believe that working with Joel Brouwer and Peter Streckfus, at Alabama, could help me challenge myself more and move into new places with my writing. I haven't even met Thylias Moss and Laura Kasischke at Michigan, yet!
Anyway, money isn't my key decision factor. But Columbia's unexpectedly competitive fellowship offer makes the idea of staying in my economic and artistic comfort zone more appealing than I wish it was.
@Rhizobium - The poetry manuscript that I submitted was almost all forms. I included a sestina, a villanelle, rhymed couplets, a sonnet, a prose poem, simple quatrains, series poems, and even a Psalm. But I wouldn't call myself "formal." I see myself as recognizing the tradition and then subverting it.
I have to say, thus far, Cornell has the very best rejection letter going. They made me feel as though it was only right that I got rejected because I was too good for them. Heard from Hunter this morning, via email, which started me drinking. On my third rum-punch and signed up for a Hollis Gillespie class on e-books.
when pondering the question of whether or not an MFA is the right path i always think of the movie 'the savages' when linney jumps out of bed and says, "i have an MFA! this is ridiculous!"
@Chrissy - Thanks and LOL! I think you're in the minority.
@cecil peoples - no, I believe she said it to a cabdriver in a cab.
@cecil peoples - (cont.) and laura linney's character got her MFA in playwriting, I believe.
@Woon,
At first, many people thought you were a tit. What with your stellar GRE scores etc. But you humor and (strange) insight has kept this board interesting and entertaining!
@Rhizobium
My manuscript was certainly a mix. I have done some reading, and asking around with people who are or have been readers at universities. Even if you are a formalist, all formed poems are not necessarily recommended. A mix is good. True to your voice is always good.
I just got the no-funding email from UNH as well (I'm in for fiction). I'm curious: have any of the first year admits here gotten offered funding? Or a tuition remission?
Also, @megan I think I am going to go to the prospective student day. It sounds fun! Anyone else who's going, drop me a line at nattyish at gmail.
*your
@ Liz: I will be emailing you tonight. Thanks!
@ pogrator: I hadn't thought about posting an appeal on PW. It's worth a shot.
@ Memphis peeps: I will be there for a visit sometime between monday and wednesday next week if anyone wants to coordinate visits. Jan is still on vacation, but I'll be calling one of the other people to ask about class times and such tomorrow morning.
@MFAGuy - I loved taking the GRE. The days leading up to it, it felt like the Super Bowl for me. I believe that's the attitude one must have for all things. Otherwise, why bother?
oh please, sketchy is not an offensive word. and to be offended over something as silly as a blog poster calling you sketchy because you did something like pursue multiple GRADUATE degrees in a non-linear fashion, which most ppl would consider sketchy (obvi, i understand that PhDs have to have a master's first in most cases) is simply ridiculous. get offended b/c someone calls you a slur or throws a drink on you. not b/c of a blog.
the only thing offensive on this blog about the use of sketchy is that someone thought it was an appropriate adjective to describe a chi-mo (child molester, i speak in shorthand in person, too). who deserve a far stronger term.
please note i speak mostly in jest, too, and don't mean to waste anyone's time by being offensive.
also, for full disclosure, i double-majored, applied to MFA programs in writing and separately in film, and it's def. b/c i'm flighty and commitment phobic. (and thought i would get rejected a lot, which is true)
@ Woon - Phew, what a relief, I passed your test (though I won't reveal the precise criteria of yours that I met).
Now if only an MFA program will let me in, I'll proceed to hoarding more degrees....
OMG!!!!!! I'M WAITLISTED AT NOTRE FREAKING DAME!!! Apparently, there was a miscommunication (shame, shame for telling me I was not admitted). But I just got a letter telling me I was waitlisted! I'm almost crying. I likely won't be admitted, but still!!
Super-congrats, kaybay! Proof that it really isn't over until you get an official response!
@Trilbe -
I did not know about all the Israelis. Thanks for the info!
It's well known that there's a big Israeli community in Manhattan in general, and that's good to know, since I'm sure I'm going to rely on some of those guys for support. Generally though, I hope I won't get sucked too deep into a homogenous Israeli existence. I have American roots I want to discover, and one thing I love about New York is the diversity.
Right now, the big issue, as has been stated here, is money. Just to put in my two cents - if I don't get any aid I can't go to Columbia. I'm really hoping for something though, since my boyfriend was accepted at Princeton and Cornell and we'd like to be at least close to each other.
Thanks all for your wishes and good luck to all. I think this process is making us all brighter and focused, if somewhat deranged, people.
@ kaybay --
that is fucking fantastic!!!!!
- the other emma
@ Autstin
I did my undergrad at UTK and I had nothing but great experiences with the faculty/cw department. I am championing it here because I don't think the program gets the credit it deserves...even if it is an MA and not and MFA. If you have any q's about the program or Knoxville, don't hesitate to ask!
Kaybay -
Woohoo!!!
And by "Autstin" I mean "Austin"
Woooo, Kaybay! You go!
@ Susan,
Okay, not to split hairs over this, but a flasher in a trench coat - or whatever the modern attire would be - is not the same as a child molester (different dysfunctions, really). Mind you, I'm not defending either - both are pretty f---ed up!!
KAY BAY!!! Yeaaahhhhh!!! Sending good vibes.
UGGs, Smoke-oi, UGGs (puke-colored).
Let's be 4 real 4 serious for a minute. You are a Columbia University MFA student, defending your program. I get it. Hopefully you chose the right program, taking into consideration all the things this blog (and Seth's research) wants you to take into consideration: location, funding, cohort quality, pedagogical opportunities, blah blah blah. (Sorry)
The propulsive ideology of this blog, Suburban Ecstasies, and Driftless House is one of transparency: pulling back the curtains MFA programs have operated behind for years. Transparency has caused awkwardness for a program like Columbia, high-ranked and operating under Ivy League auspices, because it asks uncomfortable questions: why is Columbia one of the most, if not the most, expensive MFA programs in the country? Why doesn't Columbia arrange funding packages like its sister-sister (sorry) program, NYU, a couple miles south? How many people can afford $120,000 for an art degree with few career prospects at its end? These aren't unreasonable questions, Smoke-oi, and they're certainly ones people accepted into Columbia should be asking (excepting the rare fellowship offers, like Trilbe's). The answers will vary, obviously, based on the askers (James Francos).
I think you're politicizing the data in the same way people politicize global warming (i.e., observable phenomena we then incorporate into our worldviews/political ideologies). The Columbia funding situation is verifiable. We have anecdotal evidence on this blog from other Columbia MFAers who regret the cost of their degree, especially after discovering other programs offer full funding. We have evidence from the people getting Columbia acceptances right now: Columbia wants $100,000 upfront, in federal loans. That's a bitter pill for a lot of people, Smoke-oi, and especially for the people on this blog, who are almost certainly better-informed about the MFA world than others who've done less research and who might be making their decisions by the ancient (GST-grad school time) AWP data.
But let's be honest, Smoke-oi. You aren't coming on here in the spirit of fair debate. You've tipped your hand in your attacks on Cornell and your name-calling (the poster who refers to a multiple-degree holder as "sketchy" is more "mature?"). Let's be honest, Smoke-oi! You probably aren't going to change your mind, and that's OK. But remember: I don't go around your blog and tell you how to blog it.
I (really) hope you love it at Columbia! Say hi to James Franco for me!
@Kaybay-congratulations! and if you think that the good wishes of all the people here won't push you off the list, well, then, that's a bit of magical thinking!
@kaybay
Congrats! Now you gotta tell them to turn that waitlist note into an acceptance letter! They don't get to make you freak the eff out like that for free!
Also, all day today, I've been pretending that Smoke-oi is the smoke monster from LOST. I'm not invested in the Columbia convo at all, but it's definitely made the back-and-forth much more entertaining.
@Trilbe
I'd just like to add that my offer from Columbia, which remits most of my tuition, is also much more competitive than the offers I've gotten from two other programs, even factoring in living expenses. Yes, NYC can be ridiculously expensive. But there are also ways to live cheaply here. Yes, there are things about Columbia's program that give me serious pause. But of the places I've been accepted to so far, I think each one has serious pluses and serious minuses. Ok, done talking about Columbia now.
HOLY MOTHER OF JESUS, KAYBAY!!!!!!!!!! I will shoot someone for you, to get you in! Yes, I will f*ing shoot somebody, girl! Oh. My. Touchdown. Jesus! CONGRATULATIONS!
One more quick, unrelated thing... James Franco is actually very nice. He had Andrew Sarris's Hitchock class, with two of my close friends, last semester, on the same night that I had a class in Dodge Hall. He was very self-deprecating, the only student who was dedicated enough to actually show the f*ck up for his discussion sections and he would talk to anybody about anything. Super smart and super kind.
@ Jen
hahaha this is true, and you are right. i would much rather run into the flasher than the chi-mo. wasn't pee wee herman a flasher? so at least you could maybe get an autograph. or you could make fun of the flasher's wee wee size. i think they do still wear trenchcoats, yes?
--in the spirit of blog maturity--
@susan - pee wee herman was not a flasher. he was caught...umm...doing stuff..in an adult movie theater. By himself.
@ woon
and he went to jail for that? i thought that's what movie theatres were for.
I just want to say that Seth has been an amazing influence in my decisions to apply to the schools I did this time around. His research and time spent compiling data has been amazingly helpful. I am grateful for his work, and though I came to each decision along the way carefully and internally, I wouldn't have felt nearly as confident without his numbers and knowledge.
That's all. :) Congrats to all of today's acceptances!!
@Woon
RE: Pee Wee
This is for you. I swear, this was just gchatted to me on a wholly-unrelated (and un-incriminating) note:
http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2010/03/what_to_say_when_youre_accused.html?mid=daily-intel--20100322
Touchdown Jesus!! Notre Dame reference! AH! Thanks guys! Happy to be coming on here with good news :D
Received the LSU waitlist letter for fiction today, although it appears I am not alone. I'm rooting for everyone. Let's all get in. Yeah, that sounds good.
I had to remove myself from this blog to stop from obsessing, so sorry for a long stretch of absence.
@ Susan -
On a serious note, my older sister and my neighbor actually did get flashed by a guy in a trench coat walking home from school when they were kids! The freakiest thing about it was that they told me and a couple of other kids, but that none of us told any adults because WE were ashamed. Strange to think about now.
yes, a thank-you to seth is once again in order for all the time spent on compiling information. i have found a lot of great information from the related sites about funding, program values, etc. i don't agree with some of the inferences that seth makes from the hard data, but that's for everyone to evaluate individually.
good luck to everyone who will soon be coming home to the mail!
BIG CONGRATS, KAYBAY!!!!
@Columbia discussion:
Columbia = scam. My two cents, and I'm not looking for anyone else's opinion.
Also, congratulations to everyone who got in, and for everyone who gets to sit back and make decisions--I'm finally there! My completed list for poetry:
Accepted:
Minnesota
Montana
Michigan
Maryland
Houston
UNCG
Rejected:
Michener
Probably gonna go for either Houston or UNCG....so excited to be done!
Good luck!
@kaybay:
YESSSS! Very excited for you! Hope you end up getting in, but damn it's just nice to hear you get some good news! I've been rooting for you!
Katie-Jane! Any good news for you from Ole Miss? I've been pulling for you too! Good luck :)
KAYBAY!!!!!
I have chills. Seriously--YAY, VIRGIN MARY!!!!!!
I'm so happy for you!!!
love love love,
Fiction Courtney
why is Columbia one of the most, if not the most, expensive MFA programs in the country? Why doesn't Columbia arrange funding packages like its sister-sister (sorry) program, NYU, a couple miles south? How many people can afford $120,000 for an art degree with few career prospects at its end?
NYU offers half the credit load as Columbia. Cost per credit is probably similar. And what MFA program offers serious career prospects?
These aren't unreasonable questions, Smoke-oi, and they're certainly ones people accepted into Columbia should be asking (excepting the rare fellowship offers, like Trilbe's). The answers will vary, obviously, based on the askers (James Francos).
My point precisely. And the phoney ranking system is obfuscating the decision making process.
I think you're politicizing the data in the same way people politicize global warming (i.e., observable phenomena we then incorporate into our worldviews/political ideologies).
Nope. Opposite problem. Seth's data is biased. His data comes from his own website, and his own mysterious information gathering (which is never sourced)
The Columbia funding situation is verifiable. We have anecdotal evidence on this blog from other Columbia MFAers who regret the cost of their degree, especially after discovering other programs offer full funding. We have evidence from the people getting Columbia acceptances right now: Columbia wants $100,000 upfront, in federal loans.
No one here is denying it's an expensive program. But I encourage you to think beyond sticker price. Two years is a long time.
That's a bitter pill for a lot of people, Smoke-oi, and especially for the people on this blog, who are almost certainly better-informed about the MFA world than others who've done less research and who might be making their decisions by the ancient (GST-grad school time) AWP data.
Don't you think there are people here who googled MFA rankings? Don't they deserve to hear a different side of things?
But let's be honest, Smoke-oi. You aren't coming on here in the spirit of fair debate. You've tipped your hand in your attacks on Cornell and your name-calling (the poster who refers to a multiple-degree holder as "sketchy" is more "mature?").
Nadjia didn't call anyone sketchy. I haven't insulted anyone. The Cornell comparison was legit. (You mean to say Cornell is offers a similar experience to Cornell?
I came here to answer questions about my program. Obviously I'm not welcome. Goodbye.
aha! franco went to columbia, not brooklyn. and woon, i don't think linney said that to a cab driver. my knowledge must bat 2/2 today!
kaybay, i've followed your post all along and hope you get into ND.
Wow, the Columbia debate really fueled the fire..
Ena, can't believe you got six acceptances and only one rejection! Congrats.
@Trilbe - I too had a manuscript with many forms: villanelles, sonnets, a pantoum, a strict rhymed couplet, and most were fairly "conventional" even though I tended to twist and shape some of the poems as I felt needed. I completely agree with taking a moment to nod at tradition, as I feel it's important.
@LHH - Yes, I certainly agree that a variety can show more to a reader. When putting together my best work I happened to have a manuscript with a good amount of villanelles and sonnets with a smattering of a few less restricted poems. More formalized poetics tend to suit me best.
I know I was looking for a program that would have a formalist on board, and I'm just lucky that I've been accepted to one that has a very enthusiastic formalist.
Congrats on more good news today! I hope I'll be able to have my final tally in a few weeks...
Alright Kaybay, I am so proud of you! Way to go, seriously, that is fantastic!
@ Trilbe - good points all. I think you're right that already living in New York and having a great job will make a *huge* difference for you. However, I'm still a little confused about your tuition situation. Are you saying that the fellowship would cover tuition so much that you wouldn't have to take out loans to cover it? Or is it the fellowship plus the job that will make it work? Either way, it'd be amazing if you could swing it!
I'm seriously not trying to disparage anyone who got into Columbia - it's a big coup. And if you can work it with no debt that's even better. It is interesting to hear your take on it since you're comparing "fully-funded" programs with Columbia, and Columbia is coming up competitive.
@ Nathaniel - For UNH CNF, I was offered half tuition remission and I am on the waitlist for TA ship
@ KAYBAY -- QWOOO!@@@!!!!!!. CongRATULATIONS!! We've been rooting for you in Tucson.
That is absolutely amazing kaybay! Good to see you around here, AND with great news!!! Woo!
@kaybay
Good thoughts coming your way - best of luck!
see? you guys are scaring the only actual columbia grad student we have off the board, and now those of us interested in columbia can't get first-hand information so easily. i think we can all agree that most of us will not be able to afford/not want to go to columbia for various reasons. but for those that do, please offer them the same respect you would to everyone else on this blog who is getting an acceptance and excited about it and hoping to make an informed decision based on their own criteria. making the choice to attend akin to falling for a scam is disrespectful and not in a funny way. why don't we just say "congrats" and if you have actual information, add it? didn't your mothers teach you, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything? i hope ppl with columbia news won't be leery of the backlash now to share it in the coming weeks/days.
my sincere congratulations to everyone who has been accepted anywhere, particularly to your schools of choice, and to those who have made a decision. best of luck to all waitlisters and those still hoping for acceptances.
waitlisted at the new school, which is better than straight rejection, but still incredibly frustrating. i can't imagine an acceptance.
@pilot: congrats-- hold on to the hope! Did you just hear today? was it mail, email, etc?
thanks for the info!
Yay Kaybay!!! Congrats!
@ Coreyann: it was through the mail today.
one thing i will say about columbia:
have you noticed the students they produce and their success rate? i can't tell you how many books i've read in recent years with an author's bio that reads:
'Received his/her MFA from Columbia University.'
Also wait listed at the New School today, through snail mail, addressed a week ago. While it's great that it's not a "no," at this point, a straight answer would almost be better. ha. Sigh.....what to do, what to do. Is anyone else in this dilemma? SLC needs to know by April 12...the 12th!! Geez...
@ kaybay:
WOOT! Congratulations! I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!
Am I the only one here who was admitted to Columbia College's MFA program in fiction? I'm going to visit next week. I'm really excited (and a little nervous).
YAY Kaybay! Congrats! I hope they pull through for you!
I just want to hear from everyone right now. I said this a month ago but seriously guys. I can take it. I'm ready for decisions.
J (and others)--
Thanks for your helpful comments. I'll take them with me when I go visit Michigan and UMass next week!
Congratulations, Kaybay. Woot! Keep the faith, girl.
How do you open your acceptance/waitlist/rejection letter envelopes? Do you tear into them or use a dainty letter opener?
Does anyone make an effort to smell the stationery therein? I do. It's very revealing. It would be too much to assume the scents are of Steve Tomasula or Lan Samantha Chang. But I don't think it's a stretch to say it's of their administrative assistants, like say, Deb West. I think it should be bottled.
I think Virginia makes too much of their fellowship application: "A modest single sheet." The first time I read that, I thought, how pretentious. Other schools have simple one-pagers, too, you know. And they don't make a big deal out of it.
I don't have much to add except to say that if I came on here -- which I've never done -- and made some kind of unsubstantiated claim about a program, like Prof. ________ molests children, it would be reasonable to question my motives. But the TSE data is just that: data. There's no "Seth's ranking" anywhere on TSE. My personal opinion exists and is reified in precisely zero of the rankings on my website. And to say that "all the data comes from my website" is a paradox -- the website can't produce the data that appears on it. All TSE data is public data. All research I do is based on public data taken from MFA promotional materials or, in some instances, communications directly from the programs. And as an attorney who's a member of two bar associations and represented 2,000+ criminal defendants in two states without even a single ethics complaint, yes, I take umbrage to being called sketchy and having folks say questioning my motives is okay.
Last time I had contact with a Columbia rep it was with Ben Marcus -- on this very board. He said (sounding a little like Smoke) "Your admissions data for Columbia is wrong!" I replied: "Ben, I got that data from the Columbia website. And here's the link. [NB: I provided the link to him in-message]. If the data there is wrong, please provide the correct data and I will update TSE immediately."
Ben's response? He disappeared from the blog and never returned. So no, my motives will only be "up for debate" when there's a scintilla -- an effing scintilla -- of evidence that my data is fraudulent or collected in bad faith. Until you have word one to say on that topic besides wishful thinking -- i.e., a vain hope that smearing me baselessly because I gather applicant opinions on programs (not my own) in a public space -- then yes, you probably should check your own integrity first and consider what class it displays to slander someone you don't even know whatsoever like it's going out of style.
S.
KayBay, congrats on Notre Dame omg!!!! I'm still really rooting for an acceptance for you, but waitlist news is good news.
Jimmy James,
You've made my day with your smoke monster comment. Columbia is boring me as well. Let's talk Lost.
Re: James Franco is a cool dude
Obviously not Woon, then. :) (JUST KIDDING GUYS WOON IS COOL)
@M.B. Wells
I think we've messaged eachother before, but I'm in at CCC for poetry. So is a gal named Chelsea. I will be visiting there in the coming two weeks. Have you heard anything about funding yet?
@Seth - I liked the overall tone and rhythm of your post, Seth, but I would delete the last phrase "like it's going out of style." It's clicheish. I would incorporate some lion metaphor. It's the Columbia Lions, after all. Just my $0.02.
Seth: You gather "applicant opinions" and present them as unbiased data. It isn't statistically sound. Whether you mean to or not you are using contaminated data. Same goes with data extracted from promotional literature, if you can't find coherent quantifiable factors across your entire data set, then your product is bad.
@Hey all, haven't been on here too much the past several days--call it blog detox--but wanted to say thanks already for all of the congratulations sent my way. Congrats to all you recent acceptees, waitlisters and soon-to-be'ers. :) (Just made that up, I think).
@Rachel, you mentioned to me, Thursday I think it was, that you had been accepted to EWU, but ideally hope to go to SLC (sorry if I f'd that up). Though I still like their program, a couple days later I got a nice and excellent offer from Georgia College & State, so I'm leaning heavily in that direction. I did start to get my heart set on the idea of living out West, though. How about you?
@Katie--is your brother an undergrad at Gonzaga? (I got into EWU, if you remember). You know, I didn't even realize until after I got word that Gonzaga and EWU are just 15 minutes from each other--ells you how much I know. How are things looking for you? Best of luck!
@Zoulou: So Alaska Fairbanks is a done-deal for you? I thought that's what you had said--I know you said it was your #1 choice, basically. At one time, I was going to apply there, but I guess I felt I had to keep my list somewhere under 20, could barely keep up with 12. Yikes.
@Ashley Brooke: thanks for the congratulations (I have this thing where I don't like saying "congrats," odd I know) over on DH. Us Cleveland"ish"/ers must stick together! I guess. Haha. (The "Clevelandish" moniker is a new one to me--awesome!) Btw, starting to have amnesia here, you did get into Texas State, right? I have a friend--from my UNCW bfa program--you also just got into Texas State, also for fiction. She's posted/lurks here once in a while, but I forget her s/name as of the moment. I know that, at least for her, funding was to be decided on soon, so I hope that goes or has gone well for you.
Sorry for the long-ass post everyone. My bad (ok to say that still??)
P.S. Hope I didn’t add to any mass confusion about repeat names with the simple “Katie” and “Rachel.” I know there’s only one Zoulou.
And one scintilla of impropriety that immediately jumps out at me is your consulting business. Now, I don't believe that this is why you're doing this, but it certainly sullies your data.
@ Courtney
I have not heard about funding; I was going to call today, but then I realized this is their spring break. But I'm planning on visiting the financial aid office personally while I'm there.
re: James Franco
I think my crush on him just got worse...
@Lucas Two
I'm also an out-of-stater for fiction at UNCG. Honestly, I have no idea about the funding. It sounds like they're doing their best, but who knows how things will turn out.
If you want to correspond a bit, my email is: juliakpatt [at] gmail [dot] com.
(Lurking) Julia
Must there be a Columbia-centric dustup on this blog every year? It gets pretty tiring.
JimfifeOH,
I tend to switch back and forth between congrats and congratulations... mainly so that I don't overuse one or the other. It's carpal tunnel prevention, you know...
Yes, I was accepted at Texas State but I have yet to hear about funding. I believe I should find out sometime this week. Good luck to your friend as well and congratULATIONS this time for your great offer at GCSU. It seems to be a program on the rise.
TRILBE CAN I HAVE YOUR JOB WHEN YOU LEAVE NYC? seriously.
@ Seth
I truly do appreciate your work on here. But, we are all opinionated ppl, and the point of the blog, as i understand it, is to share information that may be helpful. Part of this, to me, means offering insight on what makes a program valuable in certain areas or less valuable in others--subjective things depending on personal criteria, and often anecdotal. The rankings you have compiled, based on data, are subjective even if every item of hard date you have compiled is factually correct--and i believe it is, because i can see you're quite thorough. Certain categories, such as funding, are given greater weight than other things, and points or however you weigh them create a #1, #2, etc. What's been helpful to me is to look at how schools rank based on these categories, and not necessarily the overall rank, because you may weight certain categories more heavily than I do for my own goals. it's not a questioning of your motives, but of what categories you value more than others. You've been always very upfront about valuing funding, and that's not the most important factor to everyone. That's subjective, and no one should be shut down for valuing these subjective things differently.
Also, again, i am responsible for the original "sketchy" comment, not at all intended as a slander on your professional work ere. it refers not to the quality of data or your motives, which are overwhelmingly altruistic and helpful to clearly tons of MFA applicants, but to how I see the subjectivity of anyone who has multiple graduate degrees in different unrelated areas. I do think that's sketchy in that it makes me question how seriously i should take that person's opinions on what subjective factors to value in going to graduate school. If you're willing to do multiple degrees, yes, I am inferring certain personality traits that do not mean you're a bad person or anything like that, but that you're certainly making decisions about attending graduate school in a different manner than someone like me, who ultimately wants to get one graduate degree, pursue that field only, and stick with it.
i think that's reasonable. i think the sensitivity and tempers flaring on here about why everyone should make decisions the same way is not reasonable.
@courtney: shoot me an email. I have some friends in non-fic you could probably talk to.
Kaybay, CONGRATULATIONS!!!
re: Columbia
I'm rich, and I still didn't apply there.
re: UVA pretension
I'm rich, and I applied there because I want to learn words like modest.
@Emma (both of you)
On a serious note, I'm assuming Emma 1 that turned it down had a TA. and does Emma 2 have one? I want to go to Montana so bad, but obviously funding is an issue.
and Emma 2 - if you're going, would you like to exchange a story? It'd be nice not reading a Beginning Fiction Workshop Undergrad story.
Okay, I'm off to go count my money. Poor people - stop applying to rich people schools.
-Sutpen
@ Smoke-oi,
All right, this is getting pretty lame. What's wrong with being a consultant and charging for help based on ones expertise? Lot's of people and businesses do it. We live in a capitalist society where one needs to make money to survive - so, we do things (that hopefully we like) and charge for them or get paid for them. Big f---ing deal!
Also, I think if you really went to Columbia you'd be describing everything you love about the program instead of lambasting Seth and his ranking system. You're basically providing an argument against all ranking systems without offering a constructive alternative. Why tear something down without offering solid information as an alternative?
I've posted before about the worth of healthy criticism about some of the assumptions made here, and while I'd like to say your criticism has been constructive and should be respected, I can't.
Seth, on behalf of lurkers everywhere, your information in invaluable and appreciated. How about we change the topic now. Let's bring back the warm sense of community y'all had going for you.
Correction - I can't believe I put an apostrophe in "Lot's." Oh well....
I'd like to hear a little about people pursuing CW PhDs after the MFA. What are your reasons for doing this? Thought process? Would you have planned your MFA experience differently knowing you'd be applying to PhDs? Anyone heading into an MFA this fall with the idea that they'd like to swing it into a PhD?
Susan, the actual final rankings are (as I've been lead to believe) not some sort of compilation of the other categories but are in fact strictly the numbers of times that a school is listed on an applicants list of schools that they have or are planning to apply to. Therefor, funding is only as important as it is to applicants... and obviously it's pretty important.
@ Seth & All
I'm currently in a quandary of sorts with my fiction acceptances. I've been making my pro-con lists, but would really like to get outside opinions and insight on each of them during this process, specifically on aesthetic, size, community, cost, environment, literary magazine, and, well, just about anything else. Here's what I'm working with (listed in order of acceptance only):
. CalArts - financial aid packets coming around April 1st. (Would not need to relocate, so housing costs are not a worry.)
. UNC Wilmington - up for a TAship that comes with $14k/year + tuition remission first year, in-state tuition following years.
. Hollins - little over $10k grant.
Clearly, being able to work in other genres or in an experimental capacity is an interest of mine :)
Thank you, all! I'm trying to make a smart, timely decision so that a couple spots for waitlisters!
If you would rather email me privately, my email address is: esthetic dot ink at gmail dot com
Peaquah,
I'm on the 10 yr plan haha. I applied to MFA programs knowing that I will most likely apply to PHD programs. Why? Well, post-grad fellowships and lectureships etc. are crazy competitive, and I want to give myself options. Also, I think it's pretty well established that unless you have AT LEAST a couple of well-received books under your belt ALONG with some other honor (i.e. Pushcart/O. Henry/ BASS/ Stegner etc.) that an MFA alone won't do much except to tell an English dept. that you can only teach one or two kinds of classes (and that you aren't a "team player"). Another reason I'm already studying for the GRE Lit exam and brushing up on my Latin and French is because a PHD program (at least if it's a CW/Lit one) will give me more time to work on another manuscript, publish more, build up and diversify my teaching resume, and really, really disappoint my family (which is always fun - "Ma, guess who's REALLY not going to be a doctor now?"
@ Ashley Brook
not sure which ones you mean? there are a number of rankings seth has compiled. i think these are the most recent from this year, with overall rankings and ranking by number (as in 1, 2, etc.) by categories such as funding, etc.
http://www.pw.org/content/2010_mfa_rankings_top_fifty_0
i hope this is helpful for ppl applying next year!
Hi all,
I have been silently following the blog for a week now. Before that, I was in what I affectionately call "only rejection purgatory", and would have been too crazed to follow. I've been accepted to Sarah Lawrence for fiction (last monday), which was SUPER exciting!! But today, I came home from work with a small envelope and a wait-list from Notre Dame!!!!!!! What a wonderful surprise! So now.... SLC has to be committed to by 4/12, and what would the likelihood be of that wait list turning into an acceptance? Probably not much, right?
I realized today that I did very little research on Notre Dame, other than the funding. What's their reputation? Do people leave there happy and improved writers? Does the name mean anything?
I should probably just go ahead and acept SLC, which is a top choice of mine anyway... of course this is pending notification from a few programs still holding out on me... (presumed rejections)
@phillywriter- you still have your drinking buddy, no worries;)
@yay kaybay, me too!
Congrats to all on your acceptances and wait-lists- to anyone still waiting, I'm sitting here pulling for you, and for what it's worth...I only needed the one.
Anyway, do any of you have thoughts? Funding is an issue, as per usual...
@kaybay:
Alas, I continue to languish in purgatory... As far as I know, no fiction acceptances for Ole Miss have gone out yet, though we're officially past last year's reported (TSE/DH) notification date... fingers crossed!
Susan,
Those are the rankings that I am talking about. If you look under "votes" you will see that that is how the overall rankings are decided. The other rankings are offered independently of those... Otherwise Texas at Austin would be #1, since it achieved #1 in every individual objective category.
All right, this is getting pretty lame. What's wrong with being a consultant and charging for help based on ones expertise? Lot's of people and businesses do it. We live in a capitalist society where one needs to make money to survive - so, we do things (that hopefully we like) and charge for them or get paid for them. Big f---ing deal!
Do you think climate studies funded by oil companies are trustworthy?
Also, I think if you really went to Columbia you'd be describing everything you love about the program instead of lambasting Seth and his ranking system.
I don't need to sell Columbia. If anyone has a question about it, I'll answer as best I can.
You're basically providing an argument against all ranking systems without offering a constructive alternative. Why tear something down without offering solid information as an alternative?
No, I'm specifically criticizing Seth's ranking system.
I've posted before about the worth of healthy criticism about some of the assumptions made here, and while I'd like to say your criticism has been constructive and should be respected, I can't.
Thanks for sharing.
@Kaybay: WOOOOOOT! :) See, it ain't over. Get some more fight in that Irish.
@Abbie
Did you ever hear from NC State?
Congrats Denn1985!! I'm glad to hear that there are others! I do want to know why the receptionist initially told me I didn't even make the short list, haha, but oh well, it made for a nice surprise when I got that letter! I almost threw it out thinking it was a rejection.
@KJ - Sorry Katie-Jane, it really is true that the waiting is the hardest part. Waiting for one school, which notifies late, is doubly stressful.
@ Ashley
oh, i see. like a most popular school to apply to based on applicants reporting. kind of a circular thing--each year more ppl apply to wherever more ppl applied last year? that means, of course, we have no idea what criteria each applicant used, and most applicants don't report, so the overall rankings are even more wookily subjective. the categories are really helpful, because those appear to be from concrete data. likewise, things like location and literary aesthetic are going to be subjective to each applicant and can't be ranked.
the rankings are a great starting point. the blog, when it's behaving, is also a great source of info, especially to get insider news on where your favorite authors are moving around to, etc. i'd also be interested to know how many admitted students, by program, have been published in a literary journal before they applied. i wonder how much this improves your chances--either because it means you're pursuing more editorial feedback, or because it makes you look better to an admission committee. as a first time applicant, i was unaware of how many ppl i'd be competing with who were already published, which i've never even attempted. thoughts?
@ Susan, re: publishing
From what I've heard, having a few publications under your belt really does nothing in terms of impressing a school or improving your chances. I think the only way that it can give someone an advantage is circuitously - if you've already started the process of submitting your work to journals, then you've probably had some rejections and learned to revise a little. But one doesn't necessarily learn to revise well from the submission process - most journals do not comment on rejected work - so all in all I'd say it makes very little difference. The ad coms don't really care if your work impressed someone else. They care if they like it, and if it seems like the kind of thing they want to work with for 2-3 years.
YAY KAYBAY!
Hey, when you get into Notre Dame (when! not if!) you'll be lucky enough to attend school with a good comp-sci friend of mine. But I'd very much suggest staying away from him. He's sketchy. (...not in the flashing way. In the traditional creeper sense :).)
Susan -
I don't think ad-coms care about prior publications, the single most important thing is the writing sample. My only advice there, and I can only speak for fiction, is to make sure you have complete story arc.
I applied with a novel excerpt - three chapters, but I think the ideal submission would be a really tight, well edited short story. If you can pull of a good short story I think you could get into most programs.
Then next most important, and critical for smaller, specialized programs like Cornell, Brown etc. would be your personal statement. Here the goal would be showing you would benefit from teaching undergrads, or using the CAVE system or whatever.
@kaybay - yay! I'm so happy to hear it :) I love your posts, and I was really sorry to see you leave before - it's great to see you back! Congratulations.
@jimfifeOH - yay, the only Zoulou! Haha, yeah, I'm still pretty much set for UAF... I'm really just delaying sending in the official word out of nerves. Eeek. It's scary to think - the future is coming! :P Let me know when you make a decision, yeah? Good luck!!
@Ena - wow, your list is incredible - congratulations!
P.S. James Franco is five kinds of fine... LOL, count me in on the theory that he is Woon. Sorry, Woon.
@MFAguy:
Nada. I've been wondering if they're going to admit anyone this season...I think we saw a few fiction admits recently, correct? But no poets thus far. Hmm...
Susan,
I don't think there's much to be gained from comparing your work to others except to feed curiosity during the application season. Unlike other graduate or professional programs, MFA applicants come from a more diverse background (in part b/c people develop differently as writers AND b/c it's an art degree with no real world constraints). There will be people who have just started writing, people who have published in journals a little, people who have published in journals a lot, and even people with books under their belt. I'd wager that admissions committees are looking for talent at all levels and in various forms (i.e. a very promising writer art 23 vs. a very talented writer at 35 are two different beasts who are going to bring different perspectives, knowledge, and skill sets to a workshop)
@Woon - AND I just realized how creepy that sounded. Oh boy. Hehe, sorry again Woon!
@kaybay - Congratulations! I don't want to be a Debbie Downer -- or, in my case, Doobie Downer -- but here's what I learned from reading posts in this blog on Notre Dame's waitlist:
1. You should, first of all, be proud of yourself. Of the hundreds of applicants, there aren't that many people on the waitlist. It is validation.
2. That said, the waitlist is DEEP. I've read accounts on this blog that it's 20 deep.
3. Notre Dame routinely tells people to go ahead and take whatever offer you've got from other schools because the chances are, you're not getting off the waitlist. In my calculations, at least 75% will not get off the waitlist. (I made up the 75% figure)
4. I'm on the Notre Dame waitlist and #3 is what their grad coordinator told me. (She did not mention 75%, as that is a magic number I pulled out of my ass)
5. I was surprised to get on the waitlist because the writing samples I submitted were not "experimental," though I could be if I tried. (Really, I could!)
I'm going to call the Notre Dame office tomorrow to see what number I am exactly. I'm not hoping for anything, as I am neither Irish nor Catholic.
Thanks Woon, I appreciate your honesty. I was actually already aware of the slim chances because I talked to someone on this blog who was waitlisted last year (#3 actually, heh), and did get accepted. I'm not expecting acceptance, but I'm still super juiced! Although I will say, I didn't expect to be waitlisted either. Oh, and I am Irish. I am Catholic. ;) Thanks!
@M.Swann, just for the record and in the interests of accuracy, smoke-oi didn't call the poster who used the word Sketchy mature. As far as i can remember, he called me mature and i never called sketchy. That was either someone else, perhaps jen? (If it's not Jen, apologies, but I can't scroll back a hundred posts or so with my crap computer).
(Also, I think I sound like Shaggy's song - It wasn't me :P)
OH MY GOD YAAAAAAY KAYBAY!!!! I am SO happy for you!
Remember what a waitlist really means: it means the school believes you are perfectly qualified to attend their institution, they just don't have room for you right now. In other words, ND likes your writing. I know we all want to be well-qualified AND have a seat to sit in come September, but remember that if they end up not having a seat for you, it's not because you're not good enough. They just had too many applicants this year.
WAY TO GO!
@kaybay - lovely to hear your good news and lovely to see how many people are rooting for you. :-)
Not only is Franco on campus, they're shooting Gossip Girls next door
@Sutpen:
"Okay, I'm off to go count my money. Poor people - stop applying to rich people schools."
You gave me the first laugh of the day.
@Abbie
Yeah I got in for fiction a while back. I just wondered about you poets as I haven't seen much on the blog!
Have just realized that my post aimed @M.Swann is riddled with typos. I really shouldn't begin posting before breakfast. Ha. Apologies all. :-)
ps. no funding though as of yet :(
@Nadiya - my god, Nadiya, if Iowa and Michigan only knew about your typo proclivities!
@Woon: mercy, mercy! please don't tell them!
@ Wandering Tree - thanks for the thoughts on PhD programs. It wasn't anything I'd seriously considered before, but I can see the benefits.
@ Everyone:
is anyone on here thinking seriously about going to Montana?
@ Sutpen --
this is Emma 2, and yes, I have a TA. I didn't when first accepted, but I was first on the waiting list for funding and they called me last week.
I would be down to trade samples, but I'd rather not drop my email in the blog, so if you want to post yours I'll email you.
@Nadiya
No matter who Smoke-oi called more mature than many of the posters here, he still called, by implication, many of the posters here immature. To be fair, you're right: he called you, Nadiya, more mature than many of us. We do need to be fair* about who's being called more mature than everyone else.
I responded to Smoke-oi because he struck me as a provocateur--making the same destructive criticisms of Seth's data/methodology as other anonymous (Columbia) posters in the past. Never mind these criticisms overlook what the data is, what the data says, and what we're to take from it, the data. Never mind these posters refuse to acknowledge how the data has empowered thousands of applicants to make better-informed decisions pursuing the MFA degree. Where were we before the Suburban Ecstasies? Two meager lists that were anything but transparent in their methodologies; two meager lists that pared the reality--150+ MFA programs currently in the USA alone--to a slim dozen programs. I think we can mostly agree the new reality is better than the old one. Seth deserves credit for that.
Look you guys, I really hope everyone is happy where they end up. I really hope the best for everyone. Columbia is a good program. High fives, you guys!
*Sarcasm
Just an FYI, James Franco went to UCLA for undergrad. We shared several classes and I kind of know him (well I have his personal email and can bypass his publicist, so that's something). He's a smart, cool, and yes, a highly self-deprecating guy. Last I heard he's doing fiction at Columbia, film at NYU, and poetry at Warren Wilson. How he has the motivation, time and energy for this must be a Hollywood secret ;-)
@MFAguy:
I'll keep my fingers crossed you hear some good funding news soon! And that they do, in fact, still like poets. We're not so bad once you get to know us.
@ Emma 2
Oh that's good news, encouraging.
Since I don't care about my email address being on this blog, as I have posted 3 times, and this email is dying (sadly, when I graduate) in 2 months:
tgcotten at olemiss dot edu
shoot me a story whenever.
M. Swann -
No matter who Smoke-oi called more mature than many of the posters here, he still called, by implication, many of the posters here immature. To be fair, you're right: he called you, Nadiya, more mature than many of us. We do need to be fair* about who's being called more mature than everyone else.
Wrong. I said that Nadiya's decision making process was mature, but I worried that this blog was the only source of information for many posters.
I responded to Smoke-oi because he struck me as a provocateur--making the same destructive criticisms of Seth's data/methodology as other anonymous (Columbia) posters in the past.
Anonymous posters such as Best American Poets or the AWP... the problems with his data are serious and render it meaningless.
Never mind these criticisms overlook what the data is, what the data says, and what we're to take from it, the data.
The data is wrong. Would you drive with a speedometer that said you were going 25MPH when you're really going 90MPH?
Never mind these posters refuse to acknowledge how the data has empowered thousands of applicants to make better-informed decisions pursuing the MFA degree. Where were we before the Suburban Ecstasies?
Seth's data is biased, people are worse off using his data than before. The only good thing (and it is a really good thing) Seth has done is underline well-funded programs.
Two meager lists that were anything but transparent in their methodologies; two meager lists that pared the reality--150+ MFA programs currently in the USA alone--to a slim dozen programs.
US News was imperfect but transparent, they sent reputation surveys to deans and faculty members across the country. Mind you the data is ancient ('96 vintage) but it's the only "clean" survey ever done. Atlantic Monthly's was basically arbitrary.
I think we can mostly agree the new reality is better than the old one. Seth deserves credit for that.
But is it?
Look you guys, I really hope everyone is happy where they end up. I really hope the best for everyone. Columbia is a good program. High fives, you guys!
And where, pray tell, are you going to school?
@M.Swann: I didn't say fair. I said in the interests of accuracy. I don't want smoke-oi or anyone to come back and say, oh look you're misquoting me and this makes everything else you guys say suspect. I've seen many of these arguments get completely derailed by side-issues/non-issues like that.
I don't think I'm more mature than anyone else here. That wasn't what I said, that was what smoke-oi said. (What were you saying about agent-provocateurs again?) To you I say, please don't twist what I said into something else.
If I thought people on this blog were immature, I wouldn't engage with them. It's a blog. I can simply not log in.
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