Monday, December 28, 2009

NEW MAILBAG! Monday, Dec. 28, 2009

388 comments and counting? Wowzers! You guys have been busy. Somebody noted, around comment number 320, that it was time for a new mailbag and yes, it is. So start afresh with your comments, questions, and mutual support, below.


465 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   201 – 400 of 465   Newer›   Newest»
Gummy Bear Sacrifice said...

A part of me wonders if I applied to the right schools, and to be honest I would apply to more if I wasn't so afraid of asking my recommenders to send ANOTHER form.

Vi Khi Nao said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Laura B. said...

My list -

Iowa
Wisconsin
Minnesota
Cornell
UMass Amherst
Michener
Brown
Michigan
Syracuse
Emerson

mj said...

here's a hilarious! story! for you: tonight i realized that iowa's postmark date was jan 3, and NOT jan 4. yes, this is after being relatively active on this forum and on the IWW website. i had the app all done but was planning on sending it tomorrow; thanks to some totally amazing divine intervening, i got my shit together in time to run to fedex an hour before my application turned into a pumpkin at midnight. i've been preparing for this for the better part of a year. i mean, really? REALLY. i probably still won't sleep tonight for feeling like such a jackass. anyway, it might give y'all a laugh.

mj said...

also here's my list for applying in fiction. to that person who commented a while back and wondered how some of us can afford to apply to so many schools, the short of it is that i can't. helloooo credit card debt! i just want options and it seems that the best way to do that, aside from being the reincarnation of william faulkner, is to apply everywhere.
texas. iowa. indiana. illinois. wisconsin. michigan. washu. uncg. uva. ohiostate. csu. boulder. arizona. umass.
still planning to do:
newmexico. asu. oregon. aaand memphis.

SeeMoreGlass said...

i did send all my transcripts to the schools i applied to, but i can't help but wonder:
how would a school even know if you didn't send a transcript for a class you took at another college that didn't count toward your undergrad?


also, my list, for fiction:
iowa
michener
syracuse
umass
brooklyn
virginia
wisconsin
nyu
cornell

very very tough admits, i know.

Caleb said...

I've been applying for fiction.

Nine applications are completed:

Iowa
Texas-Austin
Cornell
U of Michigan
WUSTL
Arizona State
Colorado State
Indiana
U of Kansas

Three more to go:

U of Memphis
LSU
VCU

I was really on the ball at the beginning of the application season. Now I'm struggling to motivate myself to finish these last three. "What's the point?" said the philosopher. "Life is useless, useless, useless."

Or at least that's how it feels when I look at acceptance rates.

Eli said...

It was Gustavo (who was/is a contributor to this blog and an Amherst student) who encouraged me to apply this year - i was gonna wait until next year when i thought i'd be more 'ready'. im glad he kicked my ass... by telling me it was a crapshoot and i should just go for it. damn straight! it's been an interesting (albeit rushed) process, though those who've applied to more than 7 or 8 schools - you're amazing! All that form-filling in!!

my list (fiction)
syracuse, brown, michigan, cornell, wisconsin, amherst, irvine

it's a really dumb list - i've whined about what i now perceive to be my short-sighted arrogance upthread! If/when i reapply, i'm definitely adding NC State (where John Kessel, scifi legend, teaches) and UNC Greensboro, where Kelly Link went, who i admire a lot.

JLR said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
JLR said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Eli said...

@4maivalentine - totally! I would apply to a few more but know my recommenders have had enough. I just can't ask them to do any more for me. I can always wait till next year. I've promised myself New Year on the beach in Goa if I don't get in anywhere this year, so that will be a gorgeous incentive for reapplying :)

Also, this is a ridiculous question, but if you Google 'MFA creative writing', this MFA blog is the 3rd website that comes up in the results. Since there's only 100 of us contributing to this blog right now, I wonder who the other 700 or 800 applicants to Iowa or Brown (or wherever) are...and whether or not they find their way here. I couldn't have survived my applications without this blog! They are missing out...or are they simply all lurking? Hundreds of 'em? That makes me feel kind of queasy. So please excuse the silly, slightly paranoid question, but seriously, where are the invisible hundreds? Anyone wanna take a stab at answering?

I think I'm in that post-applications 'will worry about anything even if only tangentially related' stage. *Cough*

Eli said...

Also, JLR, your boyfriend's PhD sounds absolutely excellent. I wish I was good at that sort of thing. Good luck with the california apps!

Eli said...

ps. when i said '100 of us', above, i'm pulling numbers out of thin air...and seriously, what a silly question.

but i do, actually, have a decent question - does anyone know anything Bard College's MFA? I can't remember it being mentioned much around these parts. Presume because of bad funding, or something? Someone's just been singing its praises here...i'm curious.

Gummy Bear Sacrifice said...

That's funny Eli, because I promised myself a New Years in Hawaii!

To add to mj's funny stories: I got a call from Boston to day and the guy on there must think I'm nuts. I was so confused to why he was calling, because at first he was just talking about the program. Like literally, just going on about how great BU is, then he launches into my options for financial aid and fellowships.

So my silly self suddenly blurts into the phone: "Wait, was I accepted?" With all the glee of a child at Christmas, mind you.

There's a long pause and then he finally says, "Uh, we're still collecting applications."

AND THEN, my brain decides to process all the logistics of "you submitted your application four freaking days ago," and "their due date is like in March."

So out of sheer embarrassment, I almost squeak, "Well why the hell are you calling me?" But I managed to curb my enthusiasm into something more along the lines of: "O-Oh, sorry I...uh, heh heh, just was a bit confused if I was missing anything from my...application...? Heh..."

To which he says, "Well, didn't YOU call and leave a message about being interested in our MLK fellowship? I was just going over the process for applying."

... *face desk*

Rohit said...

applied to six:

Iowa
Michener
Virginia
Vanderbilt
Cornell
UMass - Amherst

In for Poetry!

Anonymous said...

Eli,

I know a little about Bard's MFA. It's an interdisciplinary program. If you are a writing student you are expected to write more experimental/genre bending work or include other art practices in your work. Sound poetry, hypermedia, installation, and visual texts are things you can do there.

Bard does not fund their students. Financial aid is probably in the form of small scholarships and loans.

the duchess said...

I applied to 8 in Poetry:

UMass Amherst
UCSD
NYU
Cornell
Brown
Indiana
Iowa
Columbia College

lookylookyyonder said...

i realized saturday night that wash u doesn't actually allow you to upload your writing sample. i ran to fedex and got it sent, but i'm pretty sure the label said it's going out today.

how are situations like this normally handled? am i doomed at wash u?

Anonymous said...

A note on transcripts:
I don't think it qualifies "academic dishonesty" to not send a transcript for something like a single summer course if the course, grade, and school are listed on your degree- bearing transcript. It might make your application incomplete, but you're not really hiding anything. Besides, I've asked a few schools if they need this and most have said they don't care about it--it's always good to ask though, and I'd encourage others to do the same.

Lauren said...

Hi, my list (fiction):

Cleveland State
Kent State
University of Akron
(all the above are part of the NEOMFA program in the Cleveland area)
Ohio State University
Florida State University
University of Florida
University of Central Florida

That's definitely all I could afford. (And again -- location is important; I need to be in the Northeast Ohio area or the Jacksonville area.)

Anonymous said...

In addition, I'd like to point out that when a college requests "all transcripts," I'm pretty sure that they're requesting the transcripts for degree work, not a course taken for fun. The latter would seem to be no one else's business.

Sister Ray said...

Wooo I am off to mail my last transcripts and then I am *fingers crossed* done! I'm kind of kicking myself for not paying enough attention about transcripts and consequently not having a bunch directly sent that I should have...and now I have to send them myself, but oh well!

Applied to (fiction):

NYU
Columbia
UVA
Penn State
Vanderbilt
Alabama
Florida
Montana
Iowa
Colorado State
Naropa
Texas-Austin

I'm as scared as everyone about these acceptance rates, but I feel so much better knowing everyone has the same freak-outs! It's gonna be okay you guys...gonna be okay! :)

Gummy Bear Sacrifice said...

Hey guys, I know we've spoken about this before but refresh my mind for the few who are applying overseas. Are there any scholarships for international students than any of your are applying to through the school? Or are you guys trying your luck i other sources.

Trilbe said...

Someone asked earlier about the need for filling out the FAFSA (the US's federal app for student aid) and wondered whether it was worthwhile for people who weren't looking to take out loans. It is, indeed, worthwhile for a lot of people because there are grants and awards available for graduate study that require the applicant to fill out the FAFSA. The Jacob Javits Fellowship is one great example:

http://www.ed.gov/programs/jacobjavits/index.html

The Javits Fellowship awards aid to art students (such as us) for graduate terminal degrees (either PhD or MFA). It will pay the tuition bill and give the student a stipend of up to $30,000 per year. It will cover the entire two or three years of your MFA study (it covers study for up to 48 months).

So, if you get accepted to you dream school, but don't quite get the funding package you'd hoped for (New York school applicants, holla!), the Javits is a great opportunity for ya. But you aren't eligible unless you have filled out the FAFSA.

You can find other grant opportunities at ed.gov

Farrah said...

@ Eli et al, I'm one of the lurkers. I gave out an AMEN to Trilbe around Chrismastime, but mostly I just obsessively check the postings to reassure myself that I'm not alone in this impossible possiblity. I discovered this blog in early November and completed my 2 applications just before Thanksgiving--gone but not forgotten. Not for a second. It's been a godsend to have this community sharing a very specific form of excitement and woe, and my well-wishes are extended to each and every one of you.

My two and only choices for fiction:

Wisconsin
Iowa

Eli said...

Hey Salt, thanks for the Bard info! It looks fantastic; I'd love to do that kind of interdisciplinary work and the program hadn't crossed my mind until someone bigged it up here at work. Sadly, without funding, it has to go into the same box as the New School & CCA etc: hot, but out of my league.

Yo, 4maivalentine - i noticed you're applying to Goldsmiths, Oxford and UEA. Excellent choices though funding is really dodgy (even for us UK citizens!) Your best bet for external funding might be the Fulbright Commission (though super-selective...but what's new, hey)or the AHRC (arts and humanities research council),which regularly doles out ££ to Master's and PhD students of an arty persuasion. I'm positive international students are eligible for AHRC awards because i know a bloke who got a 3 yr PhD award from them last year, and he's from Argentina. You'd have to look at the fine print to check for other eligibility requirements but it's worth it. Gotta warn you again though, it's super-competitive; i think writing doesn't figure too highly in their eyes :( But they do have shitloads of money so it may well be worth trying to wangle something!
(www.ahrc.ac.uk)

Also - the Rhodes Scholarship - similar to Fulbright, innit - ie.lots of money for american postgrads in the UK. Only for study at Oxford though. Good luck!!!

Eli said...

@Farrah Awww, thank you! You too!

insertbrackets said...

Lauren,

I will be interested to see what happens to you. I got into OSU and U Florida last year (went to OSU!) as did another admit in poetry (who ended up at Florida) and a an admit in fiction (who also ended up here). Seems like the people both schools like tend be one in the same. Good luck!

Mickey Kenny said...

Poetry applicant here.

Completed:
Michener
Iowa
Washington
Montana
Colorado State
Wyoming

To be completed:
Oregon
Alaska Anchorage
Alaska Fairbanks
Portland State
Victoria
Idaho
Western Washington (MA)

At this point, dealing with Oregon, I'm a little upset/exhausted from the thought of specifying my SOP to certain faculty members/programs. But I've worked this hard, I can push it for a few more days. Also, back up plan is oriented towards something profound, I don't want to consider the time "waiting" for acceptance to feel like dead time. Maybe teach abroad, or something like that. Best of luck everyone!! And I can't wait till we start hearing news...this blog will explode!

Lexi Elizabeth said...

How do I prove to everyone that I'm old enough to be in an MFA program, even though I'm coming straight from undergrad at 20 years old? I know this goes in the personal statement or the statement of purpose, but I don't know what I would say to convince schools of that.

Lexi Elizabeth said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kevin said...

I applied to twelve schools for fiction, all applications submitted:

Iowa
Brown
UT Austin
Michigan
University of Minnesota
Syracuse
Notre Dame
University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign
Vanderbilt
Ohio State University
Louisiana State University
University of Miami

John said...

Hello all.

A word on behalf of Hunter, after noticing a lot of angst being directed its way in previous comments: I know the $125 application fee is a lot. But I will say also that Hunter is a program that truly supports its writers. A family friend received his MFA in fiction from Hunter a couple years ago, and has only positive things to say about the community of writers he encountered there.

His former professor Colum McCann just won the National Book Award. Peter Carey has been directing the fiction side for a number of years. Based on my friend's experiences, these professors (and others) were not only approachable, but truly generous with their time and expertise.

Granted, my friend was already a NYC resident, which meant his tuition was lower than that of someone moving from out of state. But he found the program to be everything he had hoped for and more. For those applying to Hunter, I hope my relaying his experience will be encouraging to you.

No doubt about it -- $125 is sticker shocking. My assumption is that, like everything else in NYC, the costs associated with Hunter and Brooklyn College are inevitably higher. Like signing a $1,600 lease for a subterranean breadbox, it goes with the territory, and is up to the applicant whether this trade-off is worth the sacrifice.

Anyway, that's my two cents on $125.

Jenna said...

applied to 8 for Fiction:
syracuse
vanderbilt
ut austin
unc at greensboro
umass at amherst
cornell
notre dame
iowa

now just for the waiting! good luck, guys!

Michelle said...

Applying to: UBC, Irvine, Iowa, Wisconsin-Madison, Brooklyn, Cornell, UT Austin, Oxford, UEA. For Fiction.

I realize I'm probably facing 9 rejections here.

Eli Lindert said...

I just realized that I didn't send any transcripts to Virginia, but I can't find on their site where they ask for them to be sent. Will they just request them later if I'm admitted, or am I totally missing something?

Lauren said...

@ Tory:

Wow, let me just say, if both Ohio State and Florida admit me, I'll about fall off my chair in total shock. Not that I don't think I have some sort of talent -- it's just that I know that Florida's acceptance percentages are SO tiny.

What made you choose Ohio State over Florida? And how do you like your program so far?

Lauren said...

@jpnoonan77 --

But here's the thing about Hunter and other New York schools without funding. It's not just a "sacrifice" for me to attempt to go there. It's a physical, literal impossibility. (I'm speaking financially.) No amount of "sacrifice" would make it possible for me to live in New York and come up with the money to pay their tuition (even at an in-state rate).

I'm sure I'm far from the only one who lives paycheck to paycheck, has children, is under the poverty level, etc., and cannot therefore do the New York schools.

In fact -- I'd wonder how anybody could possibly make it work without being independently wealthy.

Lauren said...

Lexi Elizabeth,

I would imagine this:

If your writing sample is strong and the school wants you, your age won't matter.

I think, if I were in your shoes, though -- of course I would be extra careful to come across with maturity in my personal statement. I'd try to highlight experiences that show I can handle real life -- job experiences or internships or whatever else I had.

Best of luck to you!

Gummy Bear Sacrifice said...

Eli-a big thanks and virtual hug for the amazing information!

Laura B. said...

Is it just me, or does it seem like there are way more fiction applications than poetry? Does anyone know, in terms of percentages, is it easier to get accepted for poetry?

Lucas said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
insertbrackets said...

Well Lauren, it was an easy choice for me: I was an avid reader and fan of one of the poets here at OSU, and I also found the climate more to my liking (temperature-wise and socially) than in Gainesville. I just can't handle the humidity. OSU also gave me a little more money, which is always nice :-)

Kerry Headley said...

The smallest pool of applicants is composed of nonfiction writers. We are the redheaded stepchildren of the MFA blogosphere. Apparently, it is the least competitive pool. That's a bonus.

kaybay said...

Yeah, I had to write letters of recommendations for my students (I'm a high school teacher), and I'm not going to lie, they're kind of a pain in the ass. But, it did make me appreciate the kind of work my recommenders did. It's just tedious, is all :)

James Wooden said...

re lurking: during the application process last year I didn't discover this site or Seth's TSE until after I had sent out my last app. I think a majority of applicants apply without using this blog. When talking with my classmates I think two of them (of ten) mentioned following this blog, or TSE, or Poets and Writers.

@Lexi Elizabeth: You shouldn't try to convince the adcom you are old enough, you can only convince them you belong in their program. My opinion about young writers applying to MFA programs is that it's hard for them to set themselves apart from other writers their age because often what they write about is very similar from one writing sample to the next: primarily the college experience--being on your own for the first time, first love, first heartbreak, drug/alcohol experiences, discovering a certain author (Kerouac, Bukowski, etc). The youngest poet in our program, who came straight from undergrad, wrote about a parent's childhood experiences overseas. You can be a mature writer but if all you have to write about is very similar to a majority of other applicants, it's mighty difficult to get noticed and have your app moved to the shortlist. This isn't to say you shouldn't apply--you may be a great applicant and have no problems getting into a program. I don't know. But I have always felt some out-side of academia experience always helps. (Thinking of my own program of the all the first years, three of us came from undergrad, including me, but I'm 28 and came to college later in life.)

When it comes to how many schools one can afford to apply to it all comes down to what you think is responsible. Some credit card debt may be necessary to apply to all the schools you need to. I have no credit cards, so I could only apply to six. But if you feel comfortable going into debt to make your life-plan work out, then, by all means, start charging. Same with application fees for particular schools. If you want to go the school then pay the fee. Often the writing program has no say over how much the application fee costs. This whole process is an investment.

Good luck over the next few months.

Lexi Elizabeth said...

jamie_mu,

thanks. i don't really write about the college experience, persay. I write inspirational stories, though, which I would feel might be a little less mature than a lot of darker things older people write. I'm currently working on my thesis novel about a girl going through autism during christmas time (she's 17, which again, would make my stuff seem young). Does the age of my character matter towards maturity? There are great stories out there written for college age characters.

I guess my not knowing what is mature and what isn't shows that perhaps I'm not mature. But I really have a passion for writing and want a program that can help me add this depth to my writing. If I went onto the real world, I'm afraid that it would be too hard to go back to school, once having a job and family get in the way.

Brandy Colbert said...

lexi elizabeth,

i'm not sure the age of the main character matters, so much as the writing sample demonstrates your talent. i submitted two short stories as samples. one featured an adult character and the main character of the other was a teenager, though her age was never specified, just implied. that could come back to bite me in the ass, but i felt it was my strongest work and do not regret submitting it.

as for when is the right time to go back to school ... i don't think you can put an age on that, either. some people go back directly after undergrad, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it just wasn't an option for me. i was tired of school and moved 2,000 miles away to start my career. now, after 8 years in the working world, i'm ready to go back. i mainly want the time to work on my writing, but i honestly just miss school and certainly wouldn't mind giving up the stringent hours of an office job. granted, i have it a lot easier than some people who wait this long to go back because i'm single and childless. but there are plenty of older people with families who do go back and are better for it. and you can't predict the future. i say go with your heart, and if you think you need some time off before you go back, that's ok, too.

Brandy Colbert said...

p.s. i just realized that came across as very pro wait-to-go-back-to-school, which is not what i meant at all. above all else, do what feels right, and if your passion is to go back fresh out of undergrad, do it with confidence. good luck!

frankish said...

Just back from a last minute run to the post office. Nothing like getting something done just under the wire. :D

@Lexi Elizabeth: I did the program at Hollins (it was a one-year MA in creative writing then, now it's a two-year MFA I think) straight out of college. There were two or three of us straight out of school, most folks were in their mid to late 20s. I don't think maturity is as much of an issue in admissions as promise. It may vary from school to school, and, of course, that's just my impression.

Good luck!

insertbrackets said...

Lexi,

I applied and am going to an MFA program straight out of undergrad. I turned 22 at the end of November. Your physiological age doesn't matter, it's all about the writing. Four out of six in my year came straight out of undergrad, one waited a year, and another waited a few years. I think more than "mature" writing, the selection committees look for talent and teachability. What I mean then is that they are looking for people with some demonstrable skill level, and how seem amenable to learning from the writers teaching in the program (as well as from their fellow students). Passion is important, but many people mention this in their SOP. If you are attempting to become a better writer, passion is almost a given. Z.Z. Packer has a great story, "Drinking Coffee Elsewhere" about a girl at Yale, and Nam Le has a great story about a writing student at the Iowa Writer's Workshop called "Love and Honor and Pity and Pride and Compassion and Sacrifice"--I mention these because they are both stories about people in school that defy what your expectations of such stories would be. Your story sounds different too, but it's about so much more than you can control. I think George Saunders has a few great comments in Tom's book about student selection and what he (and likely others) looks for in writing samples.

Also, jamie_mu, I agree with everything you said...about everything :-)

beej said...

This is a great discussion regarding ages of MFAers and I just wanted to throw in my two cents and agree that it's about teachability and talent, not age. Perhaps someone who is 25 applies, but they just started writing their senior year in college, whereas the 20 year old has been writing all her life. Everyone is different. It's your 'writing age' and maturity that count, I think, more than anything. Sure, as jamie_mu referred to, people of certain ages do tend to have certain levels of experience which can enrich their work (or take away from it), ie the college student with limited life experience to draw on. But once again, it's all about the individual. Varies for everyone. I wouldn't worry.

I say this as a 29 year old just starting her MFA. But, I just got my BA last year - I took time off during my undergrad. Like I said, everyone's mileage varies. :)

Brandy Colbert said...

Tory,

love, LOVE that story by zz packer. love that entire collection of stories, actually.

it's refreshing to hear that so many people are applying to and have had success attending MFA programs straight out of undergrad. if i'm accepted into a program, i certainly want a diverse group of people reading and critiquing my work.

insertbrackets said...

I think my favorite in that collection is "Brownies" but the collection definitely does rock. I saw her read at AWP in Chicago last year, and she was indeed awesome :-D

Anonymous said...

i've heard a few people mention teachability. i'm not quite sure what that means. are people suggesting that there are students who can't be taught? or that some students may not be a match for the instructional style of a particular teacher/program? or that an applicant may be too advanced to benefit from an MFA? or all the above?

beej said...

I think of "teachability" as the ability for someone's writing to grow and adapt and change, regardless of its level of advancement in the first place. You know how some people just "dabble" in something but aren't committed to evolving, that's what I consider "unteachable;" not that they're not skilled, but that they don't have interest or passion to push further. It's kind of a vague usage I guess.

Ben McClendon said...

I've been mostly lurking. I applied to 11 schools in poetry:

Minnesota
Iowa
Washington St. Louis
Illinois
Indiana
Purdue
Michigan
Ohio State
Bowling Green
Cornell
Syracuse

I sent off everything by mid-November. Advantage: no deadline panic. Disadvantage: longer period of helpless teeth grinding while I wait.

Best of luck to all.

insertbrackets said...

Salt,

What I mean by teachability is not just an aptitude for one's work to grow but also a willingness or openness. You might be surprised but a lot of people who apply to MFA programs apply so thinking that they are, in the parlance of our times, the shit. And they act this out, typically through the personal statement...it's an arrogance or something that tells the committees something to the effect of "I know I am basically the bees knees and I'm doing this to grace you with my brilliant lyric presence". Naturally there's a range, but my sense is that there's more undue bravado out there than you might think. It's hard to balance out confidence and humility in the personal statement...you want to appear secure in your abilities while not overconfident, and you want to seem humble without sounding like you have no confidence at all. You'd think people applying to writing programs would be a little more humble, but it seems that it takes all kinds.

laura said...

Just spent two hours revising an old poem instead of finishing my last application. Oh well!

James Wooden said...

Thanks Tory! :) I followed you at MFA chronicles and at your own blog, so that's nice to hear. (Talk about lurking.)

Also, I was going to mention to Lexi Elizabeth that she should head over to mfa chronicles and check out the post about ya fiction versus lit fic. That whole discussion could be slightly shifted to address the problem of being a young writer. The poster there wasn't even trying to write young adult genre fiction but her advisor/workshop director gave her a hard time because what she was writing about read like YA. For a very young applicant a similar problem could be encountered.

BUT, again, all that said, Ms. Elizabeth, not one of us is on any of the adcoms at the schools to which you are applying, so all we can give you is speculation. In the end, it's a writer wanting to work with you. I would recommend finding a professor at your college who knows your work and is someone whom you can trust and sit down with him or her and have a real conversation about where you are at in your writing.

Someone up-thread mentioned MAs and that is another great option for younger applicants. The only problem you may run into is that MA programs are rarely funded. I always recommend UC Davis, a creative writing emphasis Lit MA program that is fully funded and not super competitive (I think a few years ago they had around 50 applicants and 20 spots). A lot of the program's graduates go on to do PhDs at very competitive schools. It may not be an option at this time to add more schools to your list but it's something you should consider.

Bringing up Packer reminds of me of a strange tradition we have here at Hopkins, that is, taking pictures and posting class photos (like those from elementary school) in the conference room. One day during break I was looking over all those who came before me, and there she was.

So Lexi, and everyone in the middle of applying, we can give each other advice on rec letters and essays and the stress of waiting, but no one can't tell you if a writer on an admissions committee is going to want to work with you. I think I'm repeating myself when I say adcoms are not looking with the perfect writer but rather someone that they'll want to work with for the next two to three years, someone who fits into their program. And when it comes to that kind of criteria, age hardly matters. When it comes down to it, a program will want to work with or they won't. You may get rejected, and this may be because you are too young, but it's just as likely that you just didn't fit into the program. The only thing you can do is send your best work and keep reading, keep writing.

beej said...

I'm limping across the finish line on final apps, all the 1/15 deadline ones mainly. I can't send them until I get the fees together, and I kind of burned out, so I procrastinated.

I'm kind of curious (and also, loopy, it's late), but does anyone else find themselves judging schools on strange criteria? I mean, I haven't been to these places. I've researched them as much as I can, but I didn't have much time and at some point it comes down to a gut feeling, because nobody can really tell you what the place is like or if it would suit you. Just as an example, my NY schools. I'm still trying to rustle up funds to apply to at least one of them, but I find myself leaning away from one solely because the emails I've gotten, and the tone of their website, puts me off a little. While in contrast, UMass Boston has been the sweetest darn group of people I've ever dealt with, so I am seriously considering Boston now when it was just a 'variety' choice earlier. I hope I'm not being petty about this; I mean, you just never know until you get there, and I guess we have to go on what we have.

WordShift said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
WordShift said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
beej said...

If, if, IF, I have a choice, I plan to visit all of my schools before deciding. I don't think I could ever decide otherwise.

WordShift said...

nteresting discussion. Tory mentioned "teachability" and that may allude to a certain kind of humility. This isn't an age thing. Though I would argue I would only choose a program that had a diverse pool of cohorts: age, sex, race, sexual orientation. I wouldn't want to mimic my undergrad experience, I'd love to be surrounded by as diverse a pool as possible. I think its more beneficial.

My sense is the writing sample still reigns supreme, though your letters of rec and your SOP can be the deciding factors.

How many plan to visit schools out of state (or in state) that you are accepted into before deciding? Hopefully we will all have a choice in the end.

DanielJScarpa said...

So...I asked each of my LOR writers for one extra copy of their letter so I could read it...sneaky, I know...and while two of the letters were amazing - couldn't ask for anything more - the third, well, the guy called me Paul. Twice. My name is Daniel. Is there anything I can do about this? Should I do anything about it?

Jennifer said...

niner--Oh, geez. I assume the letter writer who called you Paul has already sent the letters?

I don't think you can do anything about it if the letters are already sent--I'm afraid you probably just have a story that will, once you get over it, be hilarious.

If it helps any, I don't think such a mistake will matter to anyone who is reading them.

Gummy Bear Sacrifice said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Gummy Bear Sacrifice said...

People-excuse me for posting this and deleting it twice. Obviously my brain short circuited, but I'm okay now. >___________>

*deep breath*

Niner:

You know, I've always taken this approach to recommenders. If you accept the duty of writing a recommendation, then you should have the courtesy to write this person a good one. Now, maybe you will receive a lukewarm evaluation versus a very strong one, but if your recommender has gone out of his/her way to sabotage you with a bad recommendation or is so careless as to not proofread their work, then I feel that reflects bad on the recommender, not the applicant. Now, it may imply that the applicant has made a bad decision, but in the end, if a referee feels that strongly against you, then he/she shouldn't have consent to write it in the first place.

Now I could be wrong, but your situation sounds like this is some undergrad professor who just had one too many things on his plate, and if that was the case, he should have turned you away and told you that he did not have the time to commit you. So in my opinion, it's not your fault, it's his.

I think that the admissions committees are also realistic. A lot of us are in our late 20s. We've been out of undergrad for 3,4,5 years.

It's an awkward process to look up an old professor, call him up and say, "Hey, I don't know if you remember me (aka, I know you don't remember me, you have 200 students to attend to every friggin' semester) but I was in your literary class back in 2005 (Yes, I know it's now 2010 but use the force, try to remember!) and now I'm applying to graduate school and need 15 recommendations (yes, yes I did just say 15), please?"

That being said, if I were you, I'd consider telling him that he wrote in the wrong name. This is your future, and sure it'll be funny down the road, but at this point I think that you may have to be a little aggressive.

Trilbe said...

@4maivalentine - Just because the recommender accepts the task doesn't mean they've chosen to write you a positive recommendation. Theoretically, they've chosen to write you an honest evaluation -- that's what the rec forms ask them to sign their names to.

One of my instructors gave me some great advice about asking for recommendations, she said: Don't ask Hey, will you write me a recommendation? She says that she'll write one for any student that gets a B or better in her class, but that she'll be candid and point out any reservations she has about the candidate because this is a letter to her colleagues to whom she feels she has an obligation. That's why the results are (supposed to be) kept from the applicant until after the process is over.

To be fair, MFA programs aren't just picking single applicants. They're picking classes of applicants, who will participate in the intimate environment of workshops. If an applicant is a brilliant writer who has an unfortunately outsized ego (that s/he manages to downplay in the SoP) or mean-spirited approach to workshop, the confidential recommendation process is what protects us (potential future classmates) from a bad experience.

The instructor I mentioned earlier said that we should ask Would you feel enthusiastic about recommending me? She said to give the professor as many easy outs as we possibly can because it's in our best interest to weed out unenthusiastic recommenders who might write either a bad or just marginally okay rec as well as the too busy profs who might not get it done on time or who might do a half-assed job at it.

lookylookyyonder said...

for poetry:

NYU
Brown
Michigan
Montana
Houston
GMU
Iowa
Syracuse
Virginia
Indiana
WuSTL
Arizona

Gummy Bear Sacrifice said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Laura B. said...

I submitted my Michigan online application on the 31st. I received the auto “your application has been received” confirmation email the same day. However, when I login to check the status, it lists the application date as 01/04/10. I know that is the date a human processed it, but shouldn’t it show the date I submitted the application?
Should I be worried? Should I contact them?

Gummy Bear Sacrifice said...

Trilbe-Yes, recommendations should be honest. But there is no integrity in accepting the responsibility of supporting a student when the professor knows that he will write a harmful recommendation.

An admissions committee will question the candidate's judgement to have chosen someone like this but ultimately, it portrays the professor's poor character.

A student is coming to you and asking for your help. This student is empowering you with the opportunity play a role that could determine the course of his life for the next 2-4 years.

If I was an admissions officer who read a letter that harped on the student's weaknesses and the professor's reservations, then I'd have to ask why this professor wrote the letter in the first place. For the sake of honesty? If that's the case, then the professor should have honestly told that student that he couldn't give him a strong recommendation.


My own aunt, who is a professor at Cal Berkeley (and by all means this does not speak for all professors) has said herself that if she cannot give a good recommendation, she will tactfully decline because if she cannot be of help to the student then she is therefore useless. It's a waste of everybody's time.

But all philosophical banter aside, I can understand the hesitation of approaching the professor. It's embarrassing, surely his pride will be hurt, etc. But he surely cannot approach the school because he has signed the confidentiality waiver. Thus, Niner owes it to not only himself but his professor to rip off the band aid rectify this mistake. So go for it!

...

On a completely different note, Sarah Lawrence College has all my materials. Yay!

Trilbe said...

@4maivalentine - Okay, then, let's just see how that works out for Niner -- after he contacts the prof and points out the problems in the confidential recommendation that he asked for, that he supposedly has no access to.

That's great that your aunt feels that way about her students. But with all due respect to both you and your aunt, and fully admitting I'm just an applicant like yourself and not an evaluator, when you ask for a recommendation you're not asking someone to mentor you or to support you. You're asking for a confidential evaluation. It's confidential for a reason, so that it will be candid. There is actually a US Federal law that covers this, it's that important. If schools didn't expect to occasionally find some valuable information in these recs, some schools would drop them as a requirement the way that many schools have dropped the GRE.

This is just my $0.02, you don't have to agree...

Unknown said...

re: LORs

My comment doesn't so much address the debate about whether a recommender has a responsibility to be positive in their letter or not, but rather how to get a nice letter.
I only had one professor write a letter for me because I finished my BA in 2002 and she was the only one whom I thought would even somewhat remember me. Anyway, she gave me a piece of advice and that was don't accept a recommendation from someone who is unwilling to share their letter with you. She said that a tactful way to go about this is to ask, "Can I please have a copy of the letter for my files?" If they don't comply, something's fishy and perhaps you should ask someone else.

re: Laura B/Michigan
I submitted my app on the 31st too and my status also reads 1/4. I'm not too worried though, I think that's just the day that everything got processed, like the online app and our writing sample. I think they don't bother back-dating it because no one was in the office on the 1st.
But if you end up calling them, please share what they said (though I bet they're so swamped... I wouldn't wanna bug them.)

Pema D said...

happy new year!
i find encouragement that there are other people sprinting to the post office, nursing neuroses, etc. how unsurprising that this is like the 15th yr in a row i resolved not to do everything at the last minute. oh well.

i'll have to say i'm with 4maivalentine on the latest---why would it be called a letter of "recommendation" or a letter of "support" if the purpose wasn't to do just that?

brenda, i too find myself using extremely arbitrary factors to eliminate schools-- i mean, there are just so many, i felt justified in getting fickle. i didn't apply to one school for example bc i didn't like their website. that is probably the dumbest reason, but i figured, if i don't even like to look at it to get the app info, i would not wanna look at it for 2-3 yrs. so that school got the axe. maybe it's my loss! but hey, i'm so over this process i am just trying to focus on what i have left. (new mexico, wyoming)

good luck to everyone in the last stretch!

Eeyore said...

Niner -- I wouldn't stress about it. I think they'll read your letter, laugh about your professor's mistake, and assume he "cheated" a little by pasting in language he's happy with to describe the students he likes. I can't imagine they'd hold it against you.

The "assumption" in this case, that you haven't seen the letter (which I don't think is a mandate either way--you are asked whether you waive your right to see them but it's not required), works in your favor -- there's no way you could have anticipated that mistake so it's certainly no reflection on your abilities as a writer/poet, which is their primary consideration.

I'm not a recommender but in 2 different former jobs, I chose who got a senator's nomination for a military academy and who got an internship for an office in the white house. Occasionally rec. letters weighed in to break a tie but again, your professor screwing up your name says more about him/her than you or your relationship with him/her. Granted, an MFA application is a bit different, but the mindset about letters is probably the same. (Not to mention that those in academia understand that their colleagues are asked for many letters around the same time of year--they'll probably draw a lesson to check their own recs!)

And Trilbe -- I totally disagree. Everyone in the system knows the point of a recommendation is to support the applicant. Not to sound pedantic, but that's exactly why it's called a recommendation letter and not an evaluation or assessment letter. People evaluating applications want to hear why the person is a good fit. If they want dirt on the person, or even if they have concerns based on the personal statement, they contact the recommenders to get more of a picture. You'd have to be pretty evil to use that vehicle to settle scores or raise concerns with a student that you never brought up in the course of working with him. People choose their recommenders according to having a pretty good idea of what they'll say.

So Niner, if it's really bugging you, get a fourth recommendation letter from someone who'll write a glowing one and send it late.

Hope this isn't too long! Best of luck to everyone.

Laura B. said...

Amy - good to know. Normally, I wouldn’t worry, but Michigan seems a little crazy about their deadline. A “received” rather than “postmarked” deadline, really? I may email them. I’ll let you know.
Trilble, (re: Niner’s recommendation) I was thinking the same thing. Niner, you basically tricked (“sneaky, I know”) your recommenders into giving you an extra copy just so you could read it. Did you waive your right to access the letters? I don’t see how you can contact the recommender or the program, given that you’re not supposed to know the contents of each letter.
It’s like sneakily reading your boyfriend/girlfriend’s diary. You may be upset about the content, but you can’t confront him/her because you shouldn’t have read it in the first place.
I wouldn’t worry though. You have two great recommendations, and it’s not like the one recommender wrote horrible things about you.

Jessa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Unknown said...

Laura B,
I'm the one who posted a few days ago about not getting my writing sample into Michigan on time because I had mailed it on the 26th, via Priority, but it didn't get delivered till the 4th. (I don't know how my head hasn't imploded from that news yet. I'm just more zen about this than I thought.)
So I called on the yesterday morning (the 4th) and talked to an office assistant that sounded stressed-to-the-max and she assured me that they won't "shred anything" if it arrived at a reasonable time. She said that they were still receiving bins of mail and were in the process of putting the apps together. I had also e-mailed them over the weekend, in a panic, and another office assistant wrote simply, "They will probably try to re-deliver today" in response to my "OHMIGOD I MAILED MY PRECIOUS STORIES ON THE 26TH AND THEY'RE NOT THERE YET!!!!! AIIII YOOO!!!"

I had read in the PW forum from an applicant last year that the Michigan offices may be a little more lax than their website leads us to believe. At one point, the office assistant I spoke on the phone with said, "No, our website does not say that we will shred anything." I felt so bad for her, she sounded so exasperated.

Anyway, either I'm letting myself be delusional or my app is there in its entirety and now I wait wait wait.

Andrea said...

Hello, future MFA-ers. I've got a rant that only you all will understand.

While getting my blood drawn by an overly perky girl this morning, she asked what kind of college degree I had. I said "Creative Writing and English." She scoffed and said, "Do you use it?" I said no, not job-wise. Ha ha, right? In the interest of small talk, I mentioned applying to grad school. She then told me this little story while stabbing my arm: "Oh, yeah, my brother has a degree in English and, like, works at WalMart. He said he might go to grad school too. I'm like, are you ever gonna live a real life? God."

*smites phlebotomy girl with the fire of a thousand suns*

Anyone have similar stories? I know they're out there- let's hear 'em.

Unknown said...

@DigAPony

While telling a local coffeshop/pizzera owner about applying to MFA programs he responded with, "Wow, you're really trying to avoid the real-world, huh?"

Puh-lease. I've done the 'real-world' and its horse hooey. And lemme tell you something, I've done work that some may not consider 'real-world' work because I wasn't paid accordingly, but I had never ever worked so hard in my life. People's perception of real work is questionable, at best.

Trilbe said...

@Eeyore, et al. - I defer to the consensus of the blog! I picked up my opinion from an MFA applicants' forum we had here at school (Columbia), that's where I heard the advice that I relayed to y'all. But, honestly, I've gotten as much, or possibly more, good advice from this blog. So I happily defer to the majority opinion.

Eeyore said...

The beauty of the thing is this whole process is a shot in the dark for all of us. We can guess about everything but at the end, it is a guess.

I can't express how much this community has meant through the application process. Perhaps those of us who don't make it in somewhere (I've only applied to two schools) can form an online workshop till next year.

Sequoia N said...

Amy, I think people are ALWAYS going to have difficulty understanding let alone approving of careers/paths that are viewed as "non-traditional" (translation no obvious "tangible"/"real world" skills). It's sort of the same deal with people reacting to certain majors (i.e Pretty much any liberal arts degree like history, philosophy, anthropology, sociology, art, english etc. - in other words, the majority of degree granting departments). "Wow, what in the world are you going to do with that?"

I think this perception is partly the fault of colleges (for not adequately connecting the dots for parents and students with regards to how degrees translate in the real world), partly the fault of labels (esp. since most majors are inter-disciplinary in nature, and partly the fault of a society that is obsessed with immediate and obvious returns. Humanities and social science disciplines have a harder time proving their worth but obviously a person with a degree that falls under those headings brings much more to the table than just scholarly knowledge and theory.

And it's always seemed strange to me that when it comes to the arts whether it be music, visual, literary, performance, that people fail to see the possibility of success when it comes to people they meet in their day-to-day lives, and yet successful artists of all levels and mediums exist in this world. I suppose that's part of the phenomena of the artist being removed from his/her work and his/her normality. And yet, at the same time, Western culture is obsessed with ego inflating notoriety in these "pipe dream" fields.

Gummy Bear Sacrifice said...

You should have asked that perky lady what exactly the definition of a real life is. Is it traffic commutes on a metro or across the bridge? Working a 9-5? Mundane routines? Desk job? Losing brain cells by filling out spreadsheets and answering phones? Stuffy suits? Meetings? Projection tables? Having to listen to Michelle about how talented her kids are? Well, I've had one of those and they suck! Rock on!

Eli said...

@WanderingTree, at least we're writers, eh? There will never be 'Writing Idol' - you get up on stage, read out your piece of fiction, and Lorrie Moore and Ellen DeGeneres share a look of bewildered disgust as millions of viewers hurl insults at the tv screen...

Sequoia N said...

Will there be a job waiting for MFA/PHD creative writing graduates? Yes and no. Yes, there will be open positions (fellowships, temporary full-time gigs, adjunct work, the increasingly rare tenure track position, community colleges, possibly publishing positions, copy writing/editing, technical writing, the non-profit arts sector . . . and at Wal-Mart etc.) BUT as with any degree esp. in this economy (including medical, law, business), it's up to the individual to make sure they are competitive (which often means specializing in multiple things) and taking initiative to find opportunities/network. The unemployed lawyers and MBAs of the world can probably attest to that. As such, I think the argument/opinion that MFA degrees are "less useful" is complete garbage.

Laura said...

Applying in poetry and finished eleven so far (yay):

Emerson
UMass Boston
UMass Amherst
Sarah Lawrence
Brooklyn
Cornell
Syracuse
Stony Brook Southampton
Rutgers-Newark
Pittsburgh
Temple

Still have Hunter left, then I'll be done!

As for the age/experience debate above, I'm really hoping age doesn't matter too much, since I'm also young (21). I am hoping that the writing will speak for itself regarding maturity level, and in the SoP I tried to come across as both serious and humble, saying that I'm committed to writing and to learning as much as possible.

About said...

I applied to twelve schools in fiction:

CalArts
CCA
Otis
SFSU
Mills
St. Mary's College of Calif
Portland State
U. of Oregon
Oregon State
U. of Arizona
Arizona State
New School

chad said...

@DigAPony

most people i've told about applying to grad schools in creative writing have offered nothing but support/positive intrigue.

but i would have loved to be in your position. first off: i used to be a phlebotomist. and secondly, one of my two writing samples is based on a phlebotomist drawing blood in a psychiatric unit (a daily occurrence of mine years ago).

and on that note, my list of schools:

umass
brown
cornell
wisconsin
texas
alabama
iowa
syracuse
michigan
UNCWilmington
virginia
UNLV

Anonymous said...

i told my aunt i was applying to creative writing programs and she scrunched up her face in disgust and shook her head. wow! i couldn't believe it.

Unknown said...

It was farther up when someone wanted to know about all the other 700 MFA applicants who don't post comments on this blog, and someone else mentioned that, in fact, a good number of present MFA candidates don't even know about this online community of anxious applicants. I don't know how those students survived application season without it.

But then again, I'm kind of obsessive about this stuff. Oh, and superstitious! I'm too superstitious to even post the list of schools I'm applying/applied to!

Andrea said...

@ Everybody-

Gracias for all the camaraderie. I really wanted to say something to Phlebotomy Girl, but decided against it, as there was a large needle in my arm at the time. :)

I too have been out of undergrad for a few years, and have lived in the "real" world. I'd much rather pursue writing and teaching and all of the personal fulfillment it gives me, despite its lack of financial reward. (My last job consisted of physically restraining adolescents with emotional-behavioral disorders. They taught me many, many new curse words.)

So here's to all of us! May our time in the "real" world just serve as endless material for stories and poems.

kaybay said...

Digapony - did you teach high school?! I kid. Sort of.

Unknown said...

Am I the only one who refreshes this page incessantly, hoping someone commented about their anxiety too?

beej said...

Haha, Amy, I'll give in to that. But I'm subscribed to comments, which keeps me relatively satisfied too. :)

Here's what I'm currently stressing about:
-Writing the personal statement for Boston. It wants a specific statement about my 'reading life.'

-Paying for (and deciding between) Brooklyn and Hunter. If either.

-The transcripts for my one community college class, which I gave in and ordered today. Just in case.

-Waiting (patiently) for the schools I've applied to so far to update my application status. They all still say they're missing stuff, but I know it's a bad time of year.

-Having put just "Fiction" on the Iowa app rather than "Fiction and Poetry." Already emailed them to fix it, but again, bad time of year.

-Paying for the rest of the applications!

I won't even talk about acceptance stress (or lack of acceptance stress, I might say). That'll come later. I suppose I'm a little bit grateful that I'm not done yet, because it means I don't have to sit back and just... WAIT. Yet.

kaybay said...

Oh my God, I just did that... my work blocks this blog, so I have to wait until I get home to view it, so I do refresh it. I really wish I would just get over this and wait until I hear from schools. I mean, some will start calling in three weeks! When I applied for M.A. programs I almost completely forgot and moved on, I can't do that for this. I just want three years to write. And escape from adolescents throwing newly formed curse words at me ;)

Unknown said...

Brenda,
That's a fine list you've cultivated there. Good luck with it. I can't even calm down enough to think of what to stress about! Ha!

Oh, here's one: So I'm working on app seven out of ten, and I'm tweaking the SOP and just wrote a couple pretty nice lines a few minutes ago. Too bad I won't be able to use them to the first six programs I've submitted to!

This is not to mention how I re-wrote my entire SOP/PS after the Nov 15th deadline. So those four schools got the roughest draft. Ugh. What kinda writer am I?!

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Laura said...

@ Brenda

The UMass Boston personal statement stressed me out, too! I posted about it (I think it was in the last mailbag), and WanderingTree gave me some good advice. :) I ended up writing specifically about all of the writers who have influenced my development, and in general terms, how my writing could not have grown as much as it has if I hadn't been an avid reader.

I also freaked out because the MFA website says to write that personal statement, and the instructions on the grad school website say to write a different one, but I contacted the program and they said they only needed the MFA statement, so that was a relief.

frankish said...

I wonder how strict these programs are about supporting materials being in by the deadline?

I've managed to get all my own stuff in, of course, but my GRE scores and at least one of my recommendations are going to be significantly late for the schools that had 12/31-1/4 deadlines. :D

Hopefully my scrambling and disarray will make some of you feel better...or at least give you something to laugh about.

Cheers!

beej said...

Laura, thanks so much. I just noticed that discrepancy re: the statements required and probably would have wound up writing both. :) I think I'm just burnt out on writing these things altogether, which is why the idea of writing a whole new one from scratch is killing me. In a better mood/ place/ time, when I hadn't just gotten done writing X amount of other statements, I'd love to tell them about my reading. But, man. This is daunting. Wish me luck!

Andrea said...

@ Kaybay-

I had the pleasure of working with both middle schoolers AND high schoolers! All at-risk youth, all the time. Someday it'll make a great novel.

Unknown said...

@DigAPony and everyone else

I personally think that people respond that way because they're jealous of other people pursuing their dreams. It's not easy to go after what you truly desire because what if you fail? I think the vast majority of people either a) never consider what they really love or b) never try to achieve it. And in our field, and all of the artistic fields for that matter, you constantly face the prospect of rejection. Heck, it's enough to make me take a few years off from trying to get published. I think most people would rather hold onto the dream than strive for it and fail.

I posted this in the last mailbag, but here are my schools in fiction (in deadline order because that's how I remember them all):

UC Irvine
Brown
Wisconsin--Madison
UC Davis
Iowa
Washington--St. Louis
Arizona--Tucson
Vanderbilt
Oregon--Eugene

devan said...

I'm chiming in late here, but this feels important: The letters are called letters of "recommendation" because you are recommending a course of action the school should take on a given applicant—not because you are committed to recommending a student for admission.

In fact, many of the forms that accompany these letters conclude with a series of checkboxes soliciting your "recommendation"—often for admission, enthusiastic admission, or rejection (or some variety of that wording).

As to the question of what kind of letter you can expect from a particular professor, your grade in their course and any comments you have from them (on your work) often serve as a good guideline: If you got a B in the course and received lukewarm or critical comments, you can expect a middling letter with the same overall tenor.

That is, the fact that the professor has agreed to write for you in no way overrides their mediocre impression of your work, or their sense of obligation to tell the truth to their colleagues. That's why the letters mean more to admissions committees when you have waived your right to see them.

For what it's worth, I have taught composition and film studies at a university, and have written these letters for former students.

Anonymous said...

I respectfully disagree with the sentiment expressed by Devan.

In my opinion it's inappropriate to write a letter of reccomendation for a student if you don't have a high opinion of his or her potential for graduate study.

frankish said...

I've written far too many recommendation letters over the years and have always declined if I didn't think I could write a positive letter. Of course, some candidates were better than others and some of my letters more enthusiastic than others. But I'd never write a bad, or even lukewarm, letter without first letting the person know that they should probably find somebody else. That said, I'm not condemning how other people do their jobs...that's just my policy.

One of the problems with these recs is that for people out of school for a while, it can be hard to find three former professors. In desperation, students' might seek and accept letters from marginal referees.

I finished my undergrad work in 1991 and my MA in 1992. One of my grad school profs is writing a recommendation, but most of my undergrad literature teachers are long since retired, moved on, or passed away. So I got two colleagues (a screenwriter that was in workshop with me undergrad and a novelist that was in my grad workshop). We'll see how that works out for me.... :D

Anonymous said...

^^I agree with your policy.

How could someone possibly agree to write a letter for a student and then proceed to write mostly negative comments about the student's potential for graduate work? It's unethical and wastes everyone's time.

"If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."

Brandy Colbert said...

this LOR conversation is interesting. i took one creative writing class in college in my last semester of college (and truthfully, it's been so long i don't even remember the prof's name), so that was clearly not an option. i asked my current supervisor, an instructor of a writing workshop i took when i lived in LA and two former supervisors. (all are familiar with my writing, in both the professional and creative areas.) i never expected to see any of the letters, yet all but one of the referees volunteered to show me what they submitted, and they were all fantastic, thankfully. and the writing instructor seemed enthusiastic enough, so i think (i hope) i don't have anything to worry about there.

while i don't believe anyone is obligated to write a glowing letter of recommendation, i personally would never agree to do so unless i felt the candidate was up to the challenge of the program. i know it can be difficult to find one (let alone three!) people to write letters, but i also feel the person asking should try to tailor their requests to people who have their best interests at heart.

devan said...

My own policy is in line with frankish's (which I take to be quite common). I just think it's important to recognize the difference between individual faculty members' policies, on the one hand, and, on the other, what the "responsibility" of the letter-writer is.

Writing these letters isn't a favor to students; it's part of being in an academic community. If your own standards prohibit you from agreeing to write what would be a negative letter (as do mine), so be it. But that doesn't make it any other faculty member's responsibility to follow your rule.

Kerry Headley said...

Two of my three LOR writers emailed me copies of their letters and actually asked if I wanted them to say anything else. I was not expecting this, so it was a nice surprise to get to read their fabulous letters. One of those two also went so far as to make me copies of all the additional forms that programs asked for so I could see how she filled in all the answers! Maybe they wanted me to know that if I didn't get in it wasn't because they said I was a dumbass.

RugbyToy said...

Does anyone know about UNH's funding situation? I hear polar opposite reports--NO funding, to GREAT funding if they give you a TA, and there are LOTS of TA spots. What's the word on the street?

Also, I can't help but wonder:

We're all so supportive here and we all want to know--where are you applying to? No, where are YOU applying to? We can't all be so jazzed, can't all be wishing our peers all the luck ... I mean, doesn't anyone wish everyone else on this blog would just DIE and free up some MFA competition slots?

I mean. Not me. That's not, like, how I feel or anything.

... just saying. I mean, LOGICALLY, one of us has to be wishing the lot of his or her fiction/poetry/CNF compatriots on this blog will fail. I mean, eeeeevery time I see someone post another list of schools for fiction, my heart leaps. Yay! I don't have to hope that you suck, suck, suck.

Because, hypothetically, I mean ... I IMAGINE it must be really depressing hoping every poet who's applying to the same schools as you sucks balls. Lots of bad energy; pretty depressing.

I have this friend. We're ... frenemies, i guess. AND SHE THINKS SHE'S SOOOOO MUCH BETTER THAN EEEEVRYBODY ELSE. And I cannot WAIT for her to get them there rejection slips. And, MAN, if I got into any of the schools she got rejected by, you bet your BIPPY she'd be the first person I'd be dying to tell ...

... please note that I am on a lot of Nyquil right now and will probably delete this post in the morning.

Parting words: i don't think I'm hot stuff. Totally get that this big ole' blogosphere is flooded with talent. Which is why ... I could understand ... someone who understands the MFA acceptance game as competition ... would want most of you dead.

Goodnight. And good luck.

And please don't forget to answer my question about UNH. Thanks.

beej said...

RugbyToy, you made me laugh. :) Sorry I can't help with UNH. Just wanted to say, your logic makes total sense but surprisingly, nope, I don't feel that way at all re: fellow candidates. I don't consider the posters here as competition, even though it seems like I would. And I really do wish them well. Partly because we are here giving each other info and tips and support, so I feel like we're all on the same 'side.' And partly, too, because frankly I don't want all the other MFAers out there to suck. I want to work with talented writers, and further, I want to win a spot against talented writers, or else what have I won?

I even feel that way about other MFA candidates in general, not just on this blog. Honestly. And I'm not trying to make myself out to be something I'm not either. In general terms I can be as vindictive as anyone, I promise. :)

I guess the exception to this is if I sit down and focus my thoughts, on purpose, on that ONE person who gets in immediately and is first choice. Or, even worse that ONE person who gets picked for the final slot in a class over me. You know, that faceless nameless, clearly TALENTLESS individual. I can see myself wishing ill on that one. :)

beej said...

Follow-up: When I see someone else applying to my school choices in my genre, my thought isn't "kill them" but "cool, maybe we'll be classmates!" Trust me, I'm sooo not Mary Sunshine on a normal basis. Maybe this is like survival instinct, haha.

insertbrackets said...

RugbyToy,

please don't delete this post, it is profoundly amusing! I like what you've written because despite the fact that most people don't want to seem unseemly, I'm certain the majority of people here, if given the opportunity (or perhaps just ample amounts of NyQuil), would express, if not wishes for their competition dying, then at least wishes for them to become maimed, disfigured, or otherwise incapacitated. It's natural to feel this way. Heck, I have these feelings every now and then in my program when I read my cohorts' work and think damn it, this poem by such-and-such is amazing! such-and-such sucks and I want them to go away...forever Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if any of them thought the same thing every now and then.

This makes me think of how competitive and ugly the world can be, but also of how we try and cover that up. Is it healthy? I'm not certain it is. It's important to remember how subjective this process is, and how there is nothing certain when you cast your hand with MFA programs. It's important to have competition though, because it raises the bar for the writing and makes us better writers because we work harder at our craft as a way of "keeping up". Theoretically this is why people apply to schools like Iowa...they want to be with the best and be the best too. I applied to schools I felt attracted strong writers, and would only go to such a school. Other people don't like this line of thinking or have other priorities. That's fine. Any community where you are brought together under the auspices of competition is always one that is dicey because the success of one means the failure of another. Omarosa put it best when she said "I'm not here to make friends"...at least not until after you get your offers :-P

Rambling over.

Kerry Headley said...

RugbyToy,

I asked the question about UNH a long time ago and nobody seemed to know. I applied there and still don't know except that I think if you get a TA job you will be funded for two of the three years. I know I found some info about that on their site a while ago, but I can't remember the specifics. I remember last year people applied under the impression they would be fully funded and then UNH couldn't end up funding them. Again, I don't remember the specifics about that. Their website is not the most user-friendly...

Good luck! (I'm not in competition with you)

insertbrackets said...

Oh and re: UNH

I've heard the economy essentially knocked out a lot of their funding. I checked it out when I applied (mostly because of Simic) but found nothing encouraging on their website, or when I tried talking to anyone. I remember a few people getting in there CNF last year bemoaning the lack of funding. Hope that helps.

Trilbe said...

@RugbyToy - HI-Larious!

My position on the competition issue here is the same as my position on dating: my ability to pull is on me, not on any other girl. When I see a smokin' hot boy with his girlfriend, I have to tip my hat to her ability to play at that level and take that sh*t as a reminder that I need to: tighten my game, watch my diet and moisturize daily.

I guess I don't have beef with the MFA competition, either, because I'll be good enough to get in somewhere OR I won't. To get what I want, my game simply needs to be tight -- my work the best it can be, my apps in on time, my SoP articulate, my recommenders gracious, my GRE high -- because, even if every poet except me decided to take a year off from MFA apps, if I'm sloppy I'm still not going to be accepted anywhere. Also, I have the (possibly naive) idea that if I'm good enough to be CLOSE to getting into one school on my list, such that the number of people ahead of me would matter, then I'll be good enough to make the cut and actually get into another school on my list. We'll find out by April if that theory has any value...

With that said, when I read these posts I'm glad to be a poet instead of a fiction writer. Truth.

Morgan said...

Well, Tory, that Omarosa reference was amazing.

Dolores Humbert said...

Re: For anyone applying/applied to UCR

Are the supplementary materials just the Writing Sample and Project Proposal? What about the " self-statement?" That wasn't listed when I submitted the app but all of a sudden, when I check the status of my application it lists 'self-statement' as one of the "Specific Program Requirements." What's up with that?

Dolores Humbert said...

(cont)
especially since we had to write 2 statements for the university appication. Ugh.

Eli said...

@4maivalentine, my pleasure! good luck!

@RugbyToy - thanks, i now know the word 'bippy' ;) i get what you're saying and think you're feckin hilarious...but this whole thing is such a crapshoot - i love this blog cos it works me up and makes me laugh. there's no point me sizing up other fiction writers who post here as competition because we have ZERO influence about how our writing samples go down with adcoms. fuck all. so might as well be up for banter with people in the same boat as me...and also, i believe in karma and good vibes and think some of you seem very nice. This hardly weakens my application. Yup, i'm a bit of a spew-inducing hippie, but this ain't Battle Royale.

You win for funniest post though. I can hear your manic laughter from across the ocean.

Ashley Brooke said...

I don't have any malice toward anybody here, but I admit it's a little easier to be supportive of poets and people with different lists of schools that I have. But like others have said, I hope to work with good writers and I know that there are plenty of open spots overall. I know that some will fail and some will succeed.

What REALLY gets to me, though, is not knowing how brilliant or terrible other applicants are or where I fit into that ranking. Some applicants are no doubt writing complete garbage, and others are brilliant. Who is who? How many people qualify as each? I can't stand it. I wish that everybody had their writing sample posted in their blogger profile! :)

Laura B. said...

AMY, this is the response I received from Michigan regarding the “application date” confusion.

"It's ok. That's when the application got downloaded in our system. (It usually gets downloaded overnight, but we were closed from Christmas until Janurary 4th). So we got the applications downloaded when we returned. You're ok."

Since they send us an email asking that we check to make sure the "application date" is correct, shouldn’t they clarify what “correct” means. If I electronically submitted on the 31st and the deadline is January 1st, why would I automatically assume January 4th is an OK date to have listed?
Argh!

Jessa said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
beej said...

Le sigh. Just got my password from Iowa and I guess all the materials submitted to the Workshop (which was almost everything sent hard copy) aren't even included in the online application tracking? It just says those are separate and to contact the department. Not gonna do that when I know the department is buried.

Ben McClendon said...

Interesting tidbit: I was perusing the response dates over at Seth's blog, and I noticed there were notifications as early as January 20th. To put this in perspective, the unofficial beginning of acceptance season is only two weeks away.

Personally, I will be in a prolonged state of unease until I hear one school say yes or until all eleven say no. Put that way, the numbers don't seem so bad. My mantra has lately been: I only need one.

(I wasn't talking about drinks, though. That's been taking more than one lately.)

WordShift said...

Trilbe: Thanks for the link to the Jacob Javits scholarship! Good to know we have options.

I'm an undergrad, though not the typical undergrad (older, single parent) and applying to grad schools in the midsts of classes has been a challenge. On my birthday (1/4) first day of classes of the new Quarter I was sending off and applying online to two schools with my son dancing around singing about Pokemon.

Curious if anyone has come across schools with fee waivers and/or no app fees (there is one of those I think?) I was surprised to find Iowa has a fee waiver (which I qualify for but it was at the deadline, so oh well :(

Good luck to everyone! I am of the mindset that the decision also rests with each of us in the end, so I don't want to be part of a program that doesn't see me as a good fit, nor do I want to say yes to a school that doesn't offer some funding (tuition+) I plan on visiting any school(s) that I am accepted into as well.

Anyone have a bad experience, or get a bad vibe from any of the programs they have applied to?

Am I the only one who didn't take their GRE's? I couldn't fit it in though Hunters policy is apply then if you get in take the GRE.

MFAguy said...

RE: UNH

Last year I was accepted into the MFA at UNH, but had to turn it down due to the lack of funding. They said the 2nd and 3rd years of the degree would be likely funded if I came into the program. Due to statewide budget cuts the program for at least two years now has not offered TA funding to first years entering thr program.

Unknown said...

Hi -
I’ve been reading this blog for months. I can’t imagine the process without it!
In response to RugbyToy - I understand that fundamentally we’re all competing for the same (precious few) spots. I probably should feel animosity towards everyone that posted a fiction list resembling mine. But for some reason I don’t. In fact, this blog makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. I must admit, I used to be wary of other writers. I was both intimidated and frightened. I worried MFA programs would be full of competitive, pretentious, egotistical pricks. This blog has quieted my fears. Everyone seems grounded, helpful, humble, and friendly. I can picture being friends/colleagues with all of you.
So thanks for the all the advise, support, and camaraderie.

Gummy Bear Sacrifice said...

I think the closest I've ever gotten to animosity towards other aspiring MFAers is when I see people post Cornell on their applicant list. I mean, 4 freaking fiction spots? It's like, "DOH!" everytime. It's like I almost wish only 3 other people would apply to Cornell besides me, then we'd all get in :D!

Or...my writing sample is so bad that they only take 3 people that year. HAHAHAHAHA...*sob*

Amanda said...

RugbyToy and others:
I was accepted into UNH last year for fiction. They said they weren't able to provide funding for ANY of the incoming students, although they were seeking new avenues to provide funding in the future. I deferred and decided to apply to more schools this year (i didn't get into my other three). Some time in December UNH contacted me saying they had an opening TA position for the spring. I didn't get it, but it gave me hope for being considered again in the fall. But I'm not counting on it. I don't know if this helps--I guess the opportunities are out there, but rather competitive.
I know what you mean about seeing other people's lists. Every time my schools aren't on someone else's list I get excited. Being happy for myself is a lot better than wishing everyone else rejection. I'm happy I didn't go 30,000 in debt for UNH (about one year for out of state). And this year off (I graduated with my MA last spring) has been fantastic for focusing on my writing.
Good luck all!

Trilbe said...

@WordShift - While we're waiting, you should check out Jonterri Gadson's progress at the MFA Chronicles (she also has her own blog). She is a currently one of the 5 first year poets at UVa. Last year, she went through everything we're going through and she ended up being accepted by two of the most competitive programs.

From what you've said, it sounds like you have a lot in common with her:

I was a non-traditional undergraduate at Florida International University where I got a chance to take a few life-changing poetry workshops with Denise Duhamel. All but one of the pieces in my writing sample was workshopped in her courses. I'm non-traditional for a few reasons...I'm 31 and I'm also the single mother of an 8 year old who thinks he's starting grad school too lol.

http://mfachronicles.blogspot.com/

Pet & Gone said...

Just got an email from the university of Illinois letting me know that they were missing one of my rec letters, but that it could be emailed to them. Was really nice that they emailed me to let me know.

Sequoia N said...

My take is that there will always be people much better than you and there will always be people much worse than you - always (even if you're super famous and sitting on a golden toilet). You can only worry about your own writing. Also, how talented an applicant is sometimes isn't the end all and be all. As others have said, programs aren't just looking for talent but also for the right fit. If it comes down to a writer who has been publishing in top journals but is totally wrong for a program and a "perfect fit" writer who is just starting out but shows promise, the 2nd may just win out. And this is the sort of thing that no one can do anything about. A committee either connects with your work or they don't. We're all in the same boat.

Mickey Kenny said...

I like this discussion! Great question to bring up. Sadly, I harbor slight irritation whenever I see someone applying for poetry. I can't help it. BUT, after the rationale sets in, I'm happy to see someone going through the same hoops as myself, and can genuinely wish them the best of luck. After all the research, it seems to come down to the writing sample, if others get in, I believe it is for a good reason, which is also a good reason for me to improve before the next round.

On another note. For the poets:
Let's say out of all of our lists there's about 22 schools we're applying to, and each school takes about 3 poets. That means we are not competing for 3 spots at each university, but rather 66 spots on the whole. Now I don't have the best self- perception, but I believe I could be placed in the top 66 of poetry applicants.... maybe.

Unknown said...

It's a complete roller coaster. This is my guide on how to psych yourself out or pump yourself up.

Psyching oneself out:
1. Find excerpts from stories by a writing student who has been admitted to the top writing program.
2. Read writing student's excerpts and CV.
3. Pick up bottom half of mouth from your keyboard and re-attach to face after being stunned by how beautiful the writing sample is.
4. Think, "My sample can't even touch this kid's work. I'm so effed, I'll never get into that top writing program. Dang it all to heck! [Last sentenced was G-rated-ized.]
5. Stare blankly at writing student's impressive CV.
6. Lower head in shame.
7. Lift head to watch Mad Men repeats for distraction.
8. Don Draper is a womanizing adulterer, but also so irresistible!

Pumping oneself up:
1. Find excerpts from stories by a widely-publicized recent grad who was admitted to the top writing program.
2. Read MFA grad's stories.
3. Furrow brow curiously as you realize that your writing sample is pretty much on par.
4. Feel your heart flutter with hope. Begin seeing rainbows everywhere you look.
5. Can't sleep because you're too busy imagining what your new apartment will look like once you've moved to your new school to attend the top writing program.
6. Daydream about the day you'll meet Matt Weiner so you can pitch him a storyline for Mad Men.
7. Meet Don Draper.


Apparently, my anxiety-induced fantasies all lead to the offices of Sterling-Cooper. Why can't it be mid-March already?!

Rose said...

Amy,

Your post made me laugh. I find myself creeping around on the apartments and housing section of craigslist for potential cities I might be living in a year from now!

Ashley Brooke said...

Rose
Oh my God, me too! Apartment searches! I've done that for ALL 14 CITIES. I figured it was just me! It's a great way to waste time.

WanderingTree,
What you're saying is true, but the programs are still looking for talented writers. They might be looking for specific types of talented writers, people they want to work with, etc. but they're not going to overlook low quality. I remember some statistic or quote that said that about half of the applicants to grad school (I can't remember if it was specific to MFAs or not) are simple not qualified and are denied almost immediately. I guess all I mean by this is that I hate not knowing where I fit in, whether in quality or "fit," among the other applicants at any of my schools.

Also, this mailbag has gotten so out of control! I can't even imagine how they'll look in February and March.

kaybay said...

I know Ashley! It's weird too, because not a whole lot of people are posting on the P&W boards, not sure why... except for Trilbe, who graciously asked about the response time database and got a response from Seth who said that he (or someone else) will still be compiling that for future applicants. So thanks Trilbe and Seth!

Trilbe said...

@kaybay - I'm such an MFA Blog nerd... I was SO excited to be talking to THE Seth!

kaybay said...

Hmmmm, you know getting rejected by Iowa might not be such a bad thing with all this "below zero" stuff! How do you people deal with that? -30 in Minnesota! Gah!

Farrah said...

I know--once official acceptance season begins--we'll be awaiting phone calls, emails, etc. But does anyone know when the skinny envelopes are mailed out? (For instance, if Iowa starts notifying the lucky 50 in late February, when do the unlucky 1250 find out?) Is it possible to receive rejection letters before offers are extended?

Farrah said...

I know--once official acceptance season begins--we'll be awaiting phone calls, emails, etc. But does anyone know when the skinny envelopes are mailed out? (For instance, if Iowa starts notifying the lucky 50 in late February, when do the unlucky 1250 find out?) Is it possible to receive rejection letters before offers are extended?

MommyJ said...

The good news: I got a call today from the program I applied to for spring. I start in two weeks. It's not the MFA program. It's the make me more marketable, help me keep my job program.

I will be going to grad school part time, teaching undergraduate research part time, and working full time teaching emotionally disturbed special education teenagers. I have two kids and volunteer with one's Girl Scout troop. (my house looks like a bomb hit...)

Am I insane? Your call. :-p

Lauren said...

RugbyToy and others,

I also was so amused by the nerve of someone to essentially say, "I wish the lot of you would drop DEAD!" -- I guess I do understand the sense of competitiveness. I know how it is to want something SO badly, you'll step on a person or two in order to get it.

I want an acceptance to one of the top programs more than I've ever wanted anything in my life. But -- so far -- I am not feeling like I want to take anything away from anyone else. I guess I believe that those with talent will get in somewhere. (Ask me if I still believe that if I'm rejected from all my schools. I don't want to think about that.)

I guess, being an older applicant (I am 40) and having had quite a bit of life experience, I have come to believe that there's plenty of success to go around, and that if you're doing that thing that you love, that thing you're meant to do, success and happiness will come. My happiness doesn't take away from someone else's -- In fact, my happiness is contagious and will serve as an example for others wishing to walk the same (writerly) path.

I can't spend time thinking about the people who "don't" succeed as writers. I refuse to upset myself with the "odds" against supporting myself with my writing. I can only focus on myself -- I can only write my stories -- I can only push myself to take this thing as far as I, personally, can take it. Which has absolutely nothing to do with anybody else's journey.

Best of luck to you all -- and I really mean it :)

Sequoia N said...

I'm thoroughly amused by other people already browsing craigslist. I am too! I think partly just to get an idea of cost of living/ part-time job opportunities off-campus (should I choose to work extra), safe neighborhoods etc.

Yeah, I think talent goes without saying, Ashley. And I suspect that graduate programs in the arts have more applicants that are completely unqualified (academically and otherwise) than any other discipline. I remember reading something that had some numbers. Maybe it was the same article you read. I was referring more to when a committee narrows an applicant pool down to say, the top 25 or even top 50 out of 500 plus. At that point, it's up to the fates.

Sequoia N said...

Re: Iowa weather

I did my undergrad in Iowa and grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area. From California to Iowa, the climate shock wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. You can only get so cold.

Lauren, I applied last year and was only wait listed at a couple of places. There's a saying: talent will always out.

If you have faith in your writing abilities and are committed to achieving certain goals, I think you just have to believe this and keep reading and writing (you can can only get better and sometimes maybe another year or two of "waiting" is for the best). Look at Adam Haslett! He was rejected how many times from Iowa? And look at him now! Jhumpa Lahiri was also roundly rejected before going to Boston and so was Steve Almond before going to UNCG. With class sizes at top programs being so small (in most cases), it's very easy for even a very talented writer to be rejected.

cb said...

Responses in late January--wow!! Does anyone know which schools tend to notify early?

Trilbe said...

@cb - Check Seth's blog:

http://sethabramson.blogspot.com/2009/01/2009-data-bank-of-mfa-application.html

Kerry Headley said...

I admit it. I've scoured ads for apartments too. I don't think that's odd though if you're not wealthy and know that a TA salary will go a lot further where the living is the cheapest. (It's also an excuse to continue to obsess about the whole thing.)

Lauren: So glad to see another older MFA applicant here! I'm your age. Best of luck to you (and to everyone else!)

I've noticed that people here don't start getting really testy until the slots are mostly full and lots of folks are wait-listed. When someone posts that he or she can't decide whether or not to turn down a particular school (and therefore open a slot) well, it's
piranha time.

Amy said...

Talent, schmalent! Fit, pit!

Sometimes I think about how subjective and arbitrary this whole process is and that I should have just taken a photo one of my tattoos and submitted that as my application.

It's of a bookmark. Over my heart! Come on!
Iowa, call me.

Farrah said...

@ Kerry and Lauren

I, too, will hit 40 by the fall. Thoughts on an age disadvantage at the opposite end?

I feel the same as you, Lauren, regarding RugbyToy's comedic take on the competitive aspect of this process. Yet if there is a grain of truth embedded deep, deep inside (I do cringe--just a bit--every time I see WI on the list . . . 6 slots every other year!) the three of us can full-on root for one another. We're either in different disciplines or geographical locations.

Cheers to everyone. Truly.

Trilbe said...

RE: Apartments

In Austin, on the campus bus route, 3.5 miles from the Michener Center:

http://www.universityvillageaustin.com/photo.php

The bombest dorm I've ever seen in my life is at the University of California - Irvine, check out that outdoor fireplace:

http://vistadelcamponorteliving.com/photos

The sickest part is that I didn't even apply to UCI, never intended to, but I have still researched housing there. I'm pretty sure I've researched housing in every town where there is an MFA program, even if it's a program I'm not interested in. Checkmate that, fellow obsessives!

Kerry Headley said...

Hey Farrah! Welcome to the small,friendly, but not-yet-ready-for-the-AARP-Magazine club!

I returned to undergrad late, so I am used to usually being the oldest one in the class. (Though there was the occasional person in her late fifties and early sixties, which I thought was cool.) Overall, it was totally fine. I wouldn't be able to text message if it weren't for those people who I think sort of kept me younger just because I spent so much time in class hearing their points of view. I think it was really good for them and for me.

The only potential disadvantage to being a significantly older MFA student in my opinion is that we may not really gel with the social scene part of it. I mean, it really depends on the cohort, but my days of drinking and clubbing frequently are more or less over. In undergrad I had more in common with my professors. I do think that writing (or any art form) can sort of transcend age, so I hope that whoever my classmates are we will be able to support each other and enjoy each other.

I think by around age 27 or so people are more or less "grownups." To anyone much younger than that, I mean no offense. There are plenty of younger folks who have been on their own from an early age and all that. I am not even commenting on the talent of younger people AT ALL because I think incredibly talented people of all ages write. So, I am officially stating that I am not dissing younger writers. What I am saying is that the social thing is generally a little different with younger people. So, like I said, I think that's the only disadvantage that is potentially there for us who are a little longer in the tooth as they say.

The major advantage (in my case) is that I feel very, very prepared to utilize the resources in a program in a way that I wouldn't have when I was younger. I've been writing for a long time. I've had a lot of time to cultivate my voice. I've worked in jobs for years, been in tons of relationships, etc, so I have a lot of life to draw from. I think that's an advantage in my case. I simply would not have been able to focus and work the way I can now. Again, I am talking about me and not anybody else.

What do you think?

Anyway, good luck!

Lauren said...

Hi, Farrah, and Hi, Kerry!

So glad I'm not the "only" non-young person obsessing along with all the twentysomethings.

This is what I fear regarding my age: When an admission committee is thinking, okay, we've got three or six or ten fiction spots -- are they going to think, this old mom is not going to fit in with our other choices? Everyone says the committee is looking for people who "fit" with the program. I hope to God none of them think "boring soccer mom" when they look at my stuff. (I am far from it. But there is just so little information they'll be going on as they evaluate me, so some stereotyping/jumping to conclusions might happen.)

Farrah, Kerry, best of luck to you two :)

Stranger said...

Hey everyone,
This is the most supportive place on the Internet :)
I love it. Thanks for all the help. I wouldn't have been able to do much without you guys. Thanks for everything. I truly do wish you all the best of luck. Whether we get accepted or not, everyone here has shown how great they are as individuals. Frankly, I would want to work with and befriend everyone on this blog!! Hopefully some of us end up in the same classes. Good luck to you all. Thanks for a wonderful home. Take care

Lauren said...

Okay I'm totally obsessing tonight. Here's proof:

1. I just went back a year on this blog, to last March, to read about last year's acceptances -- looking for when people heard from the schools I applied to...looking for a rough count of acceptances/rejections from schools I applied to, etc.

2. I am now CONVINCED suddenly that my poor GPA (from a degree I got 19 years ago) will keep me out of all the programs -- because don't universities have GPA minimums? Everyone says, "don't worry about GPA" -- but what if it's 2.85? (Yes, that's mine and a lot of schools seem to have a 3.0 minimum for graduate school admissions.)

3. I've gone over my creative writing sample and my personal statement tonight to reassure myself they're not totally horrible. I think they're horrible, and then ten minutes later I don't think they're that bad, then ten minutes later...

4. Do any of you wish you could see the personal statements and creative writing samples of other applicants? Tonight I'd give almost anything to see what I'm up against. Not in a competitive way. I just want to know, is my stuff on par with other appliants' samples? I mean, writing is such a solitary thing. I do it in isolation and then I have no way to know -- am I any good at all whatsoever?

Okay. I'm going to stop now, and drug myself to sleep with some Nyquil.

Kerry Headley said...

Lauren,

I get what you're saying about the "boring soccer mom" thing, but I really don't think that would be a factor (especially because it's not true.) Your sample will get you in or not, regardless of age. Unless we come across as not being open to learning new things about writing and ourselves (which could happen to younger folks too),I think we should be fine.

In my experience, professors often appreciate an older person in the class. Besides, somebody needs to be the class cougar...

Farrah said...

@ Lauren and Kerry . . .

I agree about the benefits of age, but it crossed my mind more than once that--all else equal--an adcom might think old dogs aren't as open to new tricks. I consider myself neither old nor a dog, but you know what I mean. I feel like we're kind of on the edge of the spectrum practically speaking.

Class Cougar. Nice.

I've had those obsessive moments, too, and I'd be happy to (privately) exchange sops or samples.

kaybay said...

Grrrr. I just got a rejection from a lit mag for a story I included in my writing sample. I hope that's no indication of the future!

Brandy Colbert said...

nice to hear your perspectives, ladies, and your cougar comment made me laugh out loud, kerry.

the MFA really seems to attract a diverse group of ages. although on these boards, it seems like most people are in their early to mid-20s and then i think someone else mentioned they were right around my age (i'm 30). obviously the writing sample is the most important part, but i do wonder how much age, life experience, etc. factors into it. obviously they don't want a cohort with the same statistics, etc., but what sticks out in an SOP, etc. when they're narrowing down the applications to the last few?

i'm somewhat jealous of you all who have decided to focus on your creative writing so early in life and i've been kicking myself during this process, wishing i'd applied to programs years ago when i was first considering it. but overall, i'm happy with what i accomplished in my twenties. and truthfully, i know my writing was nowhere near where it is today, mostly because i wasn't as dedicated then as i am now. AND, i just happen to be one of those annoying people who thinks everything falls into a place as it should.

Jeremy said...

I don't see how ppl are applying for MFAs at 20, 21. I was a sophomore and junior in undergrad at those ages. Throw me in the school of late [very late] 20s who have been run through the juice presser of the American economy in the worst decade EVER and want to come back to Jesus. The good thing about applying now is that I may actually have something to write about. I hope the Committees see it that way.

That said, the advice on this blog about LORs and the SOP has been crucial. I would have freaked out huge had I not been reading these Hefty mailbags.

My schools - Fiction:

Iowa
Notre Dame
Columbia U
Columbia C Chicago
Brooklyn
George Mason
Maryland
American
Rutgers-Newark
The New School
City College
Queens
Temple
U of San Francisco
Memphis

plan B: Johns Hopkins MA [in DC]; The Writer's Center and get a job.

Sequoia N said...

Lauren,

Don't worry about your GPA. People have been accepted to top programs with lower stats. Also, some schools recognize that a GPA that you earned years ago has little to no reflection on the person you are today. Michigan, for example, specifically states that they don't put much weight on your academic history if you graduated 10 or more years ago. They will use other factors in their decision.

Brandy Colbert said...

er, "place." not "a place." long day.

Lauren said...

OMG, I am laughing my head off. Class cougar! Now that's something to look forward to.

Farrah and Kerry: What's your genre?

Lauren said...

@kaybay,

I submitted something as part of my writing sample that was rejected from the one lit mag I sent it to. (That was the one and only time I submitted a fiction piece.) So -- I'm with you, having submitted something that didn't even make the "top 25" list for the contest it was entered in.

Scary times. I wonder whose bright idea this MFA thing was.

Farrah said...

I'm fiction. And Kerry, aren't you the redheaded step-child, CNF?

Lauren said...

Hey, Farrah (and Kerry too, and heck, anybody else?), you can email me at aurorapixie [at] gmail [dot] com.

Sequoia N said...

re: lit mags/contests

I don't people should equate rejections at journals and/or contests with MFA decisions. The two are completely different beasts.

Unknown said...

This may be a little late (I just got off work), but my response to rugbytoy:

I think it's a little premature to wish anyone ill. It would be pretty indiscriminate since we don't know who got the spots. I will wait until I get any or all rejections to send out my laser beam thoughts. These will be primarily reserved for any fiction writers accepted to Brown or Wisconsin. Unless I get waitlisted somewhere. But I will try to wish those people ill will positively! :) Like hoping they also get accepted somewhere else they'd rather go so I can have that spot!

Ashley Brooke said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kerry Headley said...

Farrah,

Yes, I am among the redheaded stepchildren known as CNF writers. Someone here made me laugh my ass off last year when they referred to the genre as "I-can't-believe-it's-not-fiction." Ouch. But still, it's funny.

My email address is kerry[dot]headley[at]gmail.com.

Farrah said...

Okay, I'm in. Shall we start with SOPs?

My email is ahanson89@wi.rr.com

frankish said...

God, I hate writing the SoP. At this point, as nervous as I am about my writing sample, I wish this were just 100% based on the fiction/poetry/non-fiction. :/

And I still have to write that four-page critical essay for Columbia. Ugh....

Lauren said...

Frankish,

I totally freaked about the 'critical writing' sample -- I haven't written a paper like that in 19 years.

I had to write an 8-10 pager for Ohio State -- and I was so nervous, wondering how many sources to cite, how to cite them, etc., not to mention the writing itself. But I forced myself to plow through it, and I think it turned out okay.

Best of luck!

Sequoia N said...

I'm also open for trading SOPs/stories etc. I can be reached at D19NPrimo@gmail.com

Anonymous said...

Does anyone else think that because of the economy and all there are going to be even more people applying for MFAs than ever before?

Jennifer said...

beedeecee -- Don't worry -- 30 is young. I started my program this year at 39.

Unknown said...

beedeecee:

29 here myself. (And none to happy about turning 30 this summer.)

My plan as an undergrad was always to be a writer. (I took beaucoup creative writing classes and did a creative senior thesis in English.) I wrote and rewrote and revised a novel since I graduated. I never really planned to do an MFA until I had little success in finding a literary agent. Many rejections made me think maybe I have some more to learn. When I was graduating, I didn't think I needed an MFA. Now I'm looking forward to just being part of a writing community again.

frankish said...

Just turned 40. Funny...I had just assumed almost all of the folks posting were in their early mid 20s. :D

Cheers!

WordShift said...

OK...I'm freakin' embarrassed. Yes, I've been cutting it close on deadlines. Mostly due to the financial burden. Case in point, one of the UC's deadline was midnight, got it in at 11:55 pm. I'm paying for it though. I submitted the wrong form by accident, the one that said a different Universities name.
*crawls under rock*

Am I the only one who has done this. Do you think I stand a snow balls chance in hell?

Carol H. Hood said...

So at the spur of the moment, I've just decided to apply to University of New Orleans. *sigh* How will I ever break this to my recommenders...or my bank account at that?

frankish said...

Do they have online recs? If your referees have been doing those, it should only take them five minutes to upload an extra one.

Cheers!

Laura said...

Kerry:

I have some of the same concerns about not fitting into the social scene, and I'm only 21! Rather than my drinking and clubbing days being over, I never had them at all... I'm also the one who always got along better with professors, and who stayed at home on Friday nights because I really wanted to finish the book I was reading... heh. But one of the best things that one of my professors said about an MFA program was, "It's so great because all your classmates are also writers, so no one will think you're weird if you turn down a party invitation because you would rather be writing!"

beedeecee:

I'm one of those who has decided to focus on writing early in life, but it's a really scary thing, and I get jealous sometimes of the older applicants -- just because if someone already has a career, at least they have something to go back to, temporarily, if they run into trouble on the way to becoming a writer... Me, I'm depending on grad school next year (straight out of undergrad), so I don't have anything to fall back on. No security! I'm terrified. Not only is an MFA program what I want most to do, but also, what the hell else would I do..? And that's the train of thought that leads to a panic attack...

RugbyToy said...

I would like to make it very clear that i sincerely--and I do mean sincerely--wish absolutely NO ONE ill will or bodily harm. Of course, I'd hoped my tone would get that across, but I could easily see a reader taking my tone as one of a double red herring.

It's never a matter, I guess, of hoping folks fail. What I would have gotten at had I not been so darned drugged was that the sense of absolute helplessness that comes with this application process causes me, and I assume others, to regress ... almost into the animal brain.

I can hope that my admittance into or rejection from grad school will be based on merit. Oh, yes, MERIT! Long live the meritocracy!

But through every step of this process I have been reminded time and again that any number of things absolutely beyond my control might well step in and deny me a chance. Things like snail mail going astray; transcripts getting lost; addresses getting transposed. And that's just a matter of getting the work from point A to point B.

Once the work is there, all one's hard work, all that ethic and will and stick-to-it-iveness that we've been told to embrace since we were wee lasses and lads means nothing. because acceptance, in large part, comes down to this one question:

Do you like me? I like YOU. But do YOU like ME?

They have to like you, daggummit. They have to like you and your work and it's no longer a matter of solving the equation, or circling the right answer or knowing the steps. It's abstract and out of one's control.

And so many of us--I know--are writers because we want to be understood, and we want, in some measure, control of how others see us and see our views.

And here we are in this moment in time when so very much is left to chance... left to the postal service or what our readers had for lunch or whether or not they're tired or if they have a real problem with someone who does that damned Emily Disckinson daaaaash stuff in her poems or that stream of consciousness stuff in her fiction or ... or ...

... what I'm saying is, fear ... absolute helplessness, a sense of feeling beyond control in a situation that might well change the course of one's life forever--that's the kind of stuff that should turn us into biting, snarling sewer rats. That should push us into Lord of the Flies territory.

And yet here we are. Cool as cucumbers and sweet and sweet pickles. all how do ya do and good luck to you and the missus.

It's amazing. And I don't know what to make of it.

Because this is a community of support. I buy that. I sense that. And I, too, am grateful for it ...

... but I also realize that deep down, there's got to be a breaking point when we're no longer buddy buddy. And many of you have said that such a moment might arrive when we're wait-listed.

I'm not looking forward to the ROUS's of our innermost beings coming out and salivating on good people whom we once called friends.

All I can do is hope.

Vi Khi Nao said...

to prevent repetition:

i posted one of my writing samples and my SOP on my facebook's notes. if you wish to read them....add me.
and then if you don't like me afterward, delete me.
life is good.

look for me at my email address:
vikhinao@yahoo.com

i am weird. forgive me.

RugbyToy said...

Oh my godinheaven. Did I really just use the phrase: "the ROUS's of our innermost beings ...?"

Feck. Reject me now.

I'm just so tried and frayed. Judge me not on this message board drivel. I swear ... you'd like me in person, and I'd sound so much less like a precocious seventh grader.

Elissa Cahn said...

I have so many thoughts, but here are just a few:

The whole ill will towards other applicants conversation is so interesting. I had the opposite reaction when reading others' application lists- if someone has a completely different list than mine, I wonder whether I applied to the "right" schools. Then, I'm happy to see other applying to similar places, like I must have done something correct with my application list (sort-of). I relate more to what folks have said about feeling really unsure about where their writing falls in terms of quality- wondering about that can be crazy-making.

Also, I thought of whomever wrote that post about telling their phlebotomist about their MFA applications while getting blood drawn today.

Otherwise, I'm 28 (almost 29), and also never had drinking/clubbing days. My favorite thing about being this age is being able to relate to/befriend people of a wider age range than when I was younger. Also, I know this a generalization, but it's sort-of hard to imagine a group of writers A) doing nothing but clubbing or B) shunning someone because they weren't interested in that.

Lastly, does anyone know anything about Northern Michigan? Their application isn't due until Feb. 1, and I keep going back and forth about it. Mostly, I'm just curious about what life is like on the UP (I have these weird geographical interests), but unsure that's a compelling enough reason to apply...

Congratulations to everyone for getting out their applications! I feel, and know, that this is a huge accomplishment- I honestly don't think I've ever worked so hard.

Elissa Cahn said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Elissa Cahn said...

Also, I'm sort-of embarrassed that I can't figure this out, but I don't know why this is making my posts appear with my actual name instead of the alias I selected. It's making me feel a little weird.

Unknown said...

Laura,

Trust me, none of us older applicants want to fall back on our careers. Maybe I just speak for myself, but I doubt it.

I've been a grant writer since college for my day job. If I have to do it one more year, I'll shoot myself. Well, sort of.

The only positive side of it is I think I appreciate college and the dream of writing in grad school that much more.

RugbyToy said...

Also ... whoa ... also ... totally get that if a reader doesn't "like" you, it's ok, becauyse you probably don't want to study under some douche who doesn't seem to get where your head is at.

true. true. yes, i see your point.

i'm just sayin'. ain't you people never had a crush on some wild cat who just did NOT reciprocate? and you KNEW that you'd be a great couple, if he would just stop hanging out with trash like Sarah Maples and see that you doing all that homework for him was really the kind of devotion he needed?

boy. i am such a downer.

ok, so--let me throw out a positive bone or two:

1. to the postmenopausal crowd: a good friend of mine got into iowa last year after finishing her MA in our po-dunk, ain't-never-heard-of-it college. she's 47. and two years before that, i had a friend get into michener, and she was in her early 40s, I believe. didn't mean a thing. because they rocked.

2. called Florida admissions--general grad admissions--today and was all like: "hey. i see my online application status says you ain't got none of my GREs or transcripts. i know i sent them to the English department, but do I need to resend them to you too?" and she was all like: "no, man. we share materials, and we take our marching orders from the departments. we do not get in the way of their admissions decisions, and if they like you and tell us so and we see there's something missing from your file, it behooves us to help you track it down."

so, i guess what she's saying is, make sure your departmental applications are tied up and polished, and even if your general admissions stuff is sloppy and all over the place, don't worry too much ... because once Captain MFA says: "That's our man!" ain't no university administrative assistant gonna get in your way.

Holla.

Kerry Headley said...

RugbyToy --

Oh no, you di-int! Forty is not postmenopausal, for the record. But hey, thanks for throwing us a bone...

(I'm not very MFA competitive, but just because my eggs are dust don't mean I can't bitchslap your inner ROUSs to the curb.)

I say this with love.

RugbyToy said...

Hey, Ms. Cahn at 342 Evergreen Circle, St. Louis, MO, 63146 ...


... no, I'm just joshin'. You gotta go into your blogger profile and somewhere under your account or profile info it'll ask you (about 3/4 the way down) what you want your display name to be. And then you think of something crazy like: "FatLip666."

Hope that helps.


(see. i can be nice.)


last post. i swear.

frankish said...

I knew I shouldn't have read anyone else's statement of purpose. Now I want to go take a warm bath and slit my wrists... :P

Brandy Colbert said...

jennifer, riah, and laura - thanks for chiming in with your thoughts/support.

and riah, it seems like we have a lot in common regarding our professional/creative writing backgrounds. i practically could have typed that myself. also, don't fear the 30 - embrace it. i was nervous, but 29 is almost worse than actually turning 30 because you spend that whole year dreading it. and i love still getting carded and the shocked looks from strangers when i tell them my age. :)

my biggest concern right now is obsessing over the application tracking websites that say all of my stuff is not in, though i mailed it all off december 12. i emailed michigan the other day and got a response saying the english department isn't in charge of updating the site, they may have my materials, and i should check back in a week. i don't want to be THAT girl, bugging the hell out of a very busy department, buuuuut i want to know if my stuff is in. same with george mason. so far wisconsin is the only school that has updated in a timely fashion and says they have all of my stuff. and syracuse sent a confirmation email today that said we have no way of tracking our applications. at least it did say they will contact if anything is missing, which is really all i care about.

i'm not sure i've ever felt so neurotic in my life. i don't remember being at all this stressed about undergrad apps.

Kristen said...

Hi all,

I'll be applying for 2011/2012 programs in CNF. I suffer from chronic indecision and so getting a definitive list of schools together has been a struggle to say the least.

One thing I wanted to ask about, though, is if anyone applied/is planning on applying to Vanderbilt for CNF? I recently found out that you can write a non-fiction thesis there, and they have a non-fiction course offered every Spring, but CNF is not one of their "specialties," and so you have to be accepted with either a fiction or poetry submission. I felt like that wasn't made obvious to me in my initial research (when I fell in love with Vanderbilt, even though I knew - with its six students/year acceptance rate - that it would only break my heart), and I'm SO bummed to resign my hopes for what would have been my top choice because I don't really write much in the way of fiction or poetry. Has anyone else given it a go, though?

Thanks!

«Oldest ‹Older   201 – 400 of 465   Newer› Newest»