Lots of good discussion going on concerning, amongst other things: Is-my-application-complete anxiety, typo anxiety, plan Bs, teaching abroad, the weather conditions of various programs, how to distract yourselves from the aforementioned anxieties, what makes for good teaching and good critiques, and books to read. Did I miss any major threads?
Some links, gathered up top here for ease of access:
Seth's application response time database, which is up and running for the 2010 season.
(Some other resources Seth has made available at this time: Lists of low res programs, creative writing PhD programs, playwriting/dramaturgy programs, and screen/scriptwriting programs.)
As Seth has noted in the comments, he'll be posting a bunch of other good stuff on February 1st, once his contractual obligations to PW magazine allow it, so check back on the Suburban Ecstasies blog then.
And here are a few awesome ways to distract yourselves from general application anxieties, grabbed from various comments (thank you, commentators.)
Puppy webcam!
A poem! "It's the time when we are waiting to be told."
Satirical stick figure games!
Add your own favorite books to read, websites to visit, and things to do to reduce the anxiety, below, as well as open season on other topics, of course.
864 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 401 – 600 of 864 Newer› Newest»agreed, sasha. you explained the reason for my opinion much more eloquently than my sleep-deprived brain can deliver right now. either way, it means they're one step closer to decisions which is a good thing.
Why would they send out an email telling us they are going to accept/reject us soon? Wouldn’t they just do it, since no one is expecting THAT KIND of notification before Feb. 12th.
It seems more likely they would notify us because they are behind on their incomplete/complete online system status updates.
Seems they are still processing apps.
I guess we’ll hear …when we hear...
I’m trying so hard to be relaxed and calm about the whole waiting game, really I am.
Re: Wisconsin
Is there anyone whose application status is still incomplete? There aren't boxes checked for all the LORs and transcripts? I got my stuff in before Thanksgiving so my status has been pending since early December. But there must've been a big push right before the deadline, which is why I suspect they might be behind in updating the "mywisc" pages.
Like a week ago someone alluded to The Wire's greatness. Belatedly I'd like to attempt to bring The Wire and the MFA together in a thrilling category mashup (I suppose someone has already mentioned this, so why would it be thrilling?) by pointing out that from time to time a few lucky students in the Goucher MFA program have the chance to meet with David Simon to discuss reporting and creative nonfiction and such. Baltimore/Towson does have a certain mojo, I guess, despite or maybe because of things like the boarded-up rowhouses filled with cadavers and the legislators on the take and questionable lake trout subs.
@Jim,
Baltimore's an awesome city (I lived there for 10 years after college) -- full of super interesting people and places. I loved it there.
And there are a bunch of MFA programs. Goucher and Hopkins -- I almost applied to the Hopkins program but I decided I didn't have a snowball's chance -- and then there's U of Maryland, who suspended their English MA program this year (funding cuts) -- the MFA program was still intact but I did not want to apply to what appears to be a sinking/in trouble institution.
There's a really neat looking MFA program at U of Baltimore -- I like it because they call it 'creative writing and publishing arts' and that is totally right up my alley. However, they do not fund their students. So I crossed that off my list, too.
Do you remember the TV show "Homicide" ? Also filmed in Baltimore/about Baltimore. Running into those actors was a commonplace occurrence in the 90s. I loved that show, too.
Yep, got the Wisconsin e-mail, too. Thought it was going to be an early rejection note! I took it to mean that they'll have decisions made by Feb. 12, but I could be completely wrong.
Just a reply to a few comments--
@MostlySwell-- Few women?! I'd be insulted, but even as a female writer-in-training, my influence pool has a decidedly male bias. A lot of that, of course, has to do with the amount of female vs. male writing pre-1950. Personally, the Brontes and George Eliot never did anything for me. Virginia Woolf, however, has been my #1 home-girl for many years. Read The Waves and the feminists of the world (or at least this one) will forgive you ;).
@Jim-- another way to unite The Wire and MFAs... where did the writers of The Wire go to school? I know Dennis Lehane wrote quite a few episodes for them; he went to FIU (but gave me a mixed review of the program... but his main complaint was Miami, so I don't think that reflects on the program per se...)
@Lauren, re:Homicide
I just finished watching all 7 seasons of Homicide plus the made-for-TV movie. That show is brilliant. Although, it did ruin Law & Order for me, which will now forever seem flat and lifeless in comparison. Especially SVU, because they took John Munch, one of the most colorful characters on Homicide, and turned him into easily the least interesting, most soul-suckingly bland and lifeless character on TV. Curse you, Dick Wolf! How could you do it to us? What did John Munch ever do to you, hah?!
BTW, Clark Johnson (Meldrick Lewis from Homicide, Gus Haynes from season 5 of The Wire) is now officially my new favorite TV actor. What presence!
NM
Re: Wisconsin
I hope it means acceptance/rejection notification before Feb. 12th!!!
Although, I going to pretend it doesn't. That way it's just a bonus* if I hear that early.
*It's funny to use the word BONUS when it's highly likely to be upsetting news.
I just checked my status for Vanderbilt and it says my transcripts and letters are still missing even though I KNOW they were sent. When I e-mailed the program director a few weeks back, she said to wait a while and see if they've updated the website. I've waited, and no updates.
Anyone else having this problem?
to comment on the female writers thing -
I was thinking about this last week. I used to love predominately male writers like Hemingway and Dostoevsky, but ever since reading the Bell Jar by Sylvia Plath, I really started connecting to women writers like Kate Chopin, Flannery O'Connor, Virginia Woolf, and Joyce Carol Oates. I really, strongly agree that male writers get more attention and are considered "literary legends" more than female writers, something I inadvertently contributed to by reading mostly male writers. I think it's partly because women writers are expected to write about "women things" like love and family while men write about deep, psychological things and "take more risks." It obviously plays off of societal expectations.
It's funny too, because as soon as I started reading more female writers, I felt that my writing got waaay better. I think it was because I had a deeper connection with a lot of their stuff, but who knows...
@Rose - Just checked my Vandy app and it says everything has been rec'd. You might want to try calling one more time? Otherwise I don't think it's anything to worry about as their website specifically states: "We understand that sometimes the delivery of your supporting documentation (GRE scores, transcripts, letters of recommendation) might be delayed. If your supporting materials are delayed and we need to see them, we will contact you to try to obtain them."
Looooooove Alice Munro.
Ha! Gotta love my horoscopes:
"You're racing ahead when you should be plodding methodically along."
and...
"For the next month or so, you'll become more deeply involved with a group of people you've been seeing a lot of lately. These individuals will become increasingly dear to you, and you to them. Chances are good you'll share either a spiritual, artistic or musical connection."
re: female writers
When I told my dentist that I was going after an MFA in fiction, he said, "Oh, do you write like, from a woman's point of view? I can't really get into that." And I said sometimes, but not necessarily. So he asked, "Well, is there a lot of swearing in your writing?" And I said there was a little bit, so he said, "See what I mean?" Then he suggested that I read Dead Koontz.
Anyway, he's a good dentist and will luckily be sticking to it.
re: women and literature
I'd say most of the writers I admire are women. And with the exception of a couple of writers, I'd have to agree with Kaybay about women writers doing a better job of teaching me how to tell a story. I'm not sure why this is, but I tend to find human relationships more compelling in the stories of women vs. men.
That should said DEAN, not dead.
@female writers.
HAHA, Ashley! That's just priceless. Just pat Mr. Dentist on the back and tell him to stick to Tom Clancy.
Ashley,
Your dentist sounds like one of my former co-workers who thought that John Irving was a literary God. The World According to Garp apparently changed her life. I'm not sure what her life looked like prior to reading it haha.
@Rose Re: Vandy
The Vanderbilt site says my GRE scores and transcript haven't been received, even though I sent them back in November. My recs are all there, but those were submitted online.
I'm giving them until Jan. 31 before I call to ask about it, since they said it takes a while for them to log everything in. I just don't want to be that annoying person who bothers them prematurely....
Re: Women in literature
I heard that women read both male and female authors, whereas men typically only read male authors. I thought this was ridiculous until I looked at my bookshelf and realized I had mostly male authors on my shelves. Since then, I've discovered that some of my favorite writers are female, and I read more books by female writers than male now. I actually prefer the "female perspective" in literature for whatever that means.
I think there is a tendency for men to assume that books written by women are targeted toward women. This might actually be true when it comes to commercial fiction. There is a large market for "chick lit" and they're primarily marketed for women and written by women. Therefore, men don't think they're supposed to read books by women, sort of the same way boys aren't supposed to play with Barbie dolls.
I was really surprised that I had subconsciously fallen for that misconception when I have no gender bias whatsoever in any other aspect of my life. But then again, I read literary fiction, and in literary fiction, the author's gender has no real bearing.
RE: Women authors
I'm not sure where the "few women" quote came in. I said "disparate number of authors" - just to be clear. And re: risk taking, Virginia Woolf was big time on the frontier of stream-of-consciousness writing. I've not read "The Waves" yet, am working on "To The Lighthouse," and I absolutely love her essay "On Being Ill."
My comment on the publishing and sales end had to to do with Jo Rowling and Annie Proulx both starting off using initials. E. A. Proulx started out writing fiction for outdoors magazines, focused toward hunting and fishing. She chose the initials on her own, and didn't disclose her gender to the editors.
JK Rowling, on the other hand, was told by her publishers that they would not publish "Harry Potter" unless she agreed to use initials. The argument was that parents wouldn't believe a woman could write a credible coming-of-age story about a boy. HA! She's rolling in it. (And maybe, in terms of marketing, they were correct - her book might not have sold. We'll never know.)
I was reflecting on this topic since my post and remembered tha movie "The Dead Poet's Society" did not include Emily Dickinson. Surely boys can relate to "Success is counted sweetest/ By those who ne'er succeed..." Just a thought.
And my embarrassment last night at the disparity just firmed up my commitment to furthering my education (in addition to further reading on my own.)
More on women authors.
What was really interesting to me was that, when I had to name authors off the top of my head, I named mostly men, but when I went to my bookshelf, I actually have a lot more books by women authors - both that I've read and those pending. I think I've had more formal education with male authors, and so their names are etched more deeply and thus recalled more readily.
I think it's cool that so many people are hot on this topic. I know I've heard strong criticism against the publishing industry for their gender bias - and the music industry makes similar claims - "It's a marketing issue."
Maybe this is another contribution the MFA is making to society - losing the gender bias. Look at the numbers of women faculty among the programs. There's a lot.
@Nick and others Re: Homicide, TV shows, and Kurosawa
Clark Johnson is great. Did you know he's a director too? He's directed many episodes of Homicide and the Wire. He's also directed a couple of movies too. A fantastic talent and one my favs.
Homicide was one of my favorite TV shows of all time before it became crappy. The Wire is like Homicide (some of the same writers) but on steroids. The Wire is amazing.
I don't watch a lot of TV, but there are some shows that have just blown me away.
The Wire
Sopranos
Curb Your Enthusiasm
Arrested Development
Battlestar Galactica (1st three seasons)
There was also some mention of Kurosawa. He's my favorite film director of all time. I mostly only like his early work. Seven Samurai is my favorite movie ever. Also, if you like Kurosawa and you haven't seen Ikiru, please do. It's one of those life changing movies that make you reevaluate how you live your life.
One more thing, and the I'll shut-up for a while. LOL Even Bob Dylan wrote about this topic. CD: Time Out of Mind, Song: The Highlands, The line: "You don't look like you read women authors." "Sure i do" "Which have you read, then?" "'Said I read Erica Jong" She went away for a minute, and I slid out of my chair...
Good ol' Bob.
Now, I'm not saying that John Irving is the best writer of all time, but I also don't think he is deserving of equation to Dean Koontz!
Though not life-changing by any means, I very much enjoyed reading The World According to Garp. I can't really get into any of Irving's other stuff.
My two cents on Madison: "We received a great number of applications to the program this year, and they are currently under the admission committee's careful review." She didn't say, we are working diligently at updating the website with regards to application status, she said, "they are currently under the admission committee's careful review." So, I think she's indicating the big decision. They probably have some undergrad plugging in the other data, and have no further concern about that part of the process.
Lurker revealed!
Ok, so we know what to read or watch for distraction, but I am curious about how we are all living... like, house or apartment? What hours do we work and do we hate our jobs?
Like, what role does your writing play in your life? (Besides making you neurotic about applications.)
I have to speak up for John Irving. It feels like a close friend is being dissed by one of the cool kids, but I need to speak up at the risk of being an outcast. John Irving is my favorite author and coming across his work--yes, Garp!--at a tender age was very influential. As was Jane Austen a year or so later. And Lorrie Moore a year or so after that. And Milan Kundera. Nietzsche. Morrison. Richard Russo. Richard Yates. Anne Tyler. John Steinbeck. Elizabeth Bishop. And ee cummings. An eclectic list, perhaps, or largely bourgeois (arguably) depending on your taste. But none of the above suggest bad taste, whereas in a writers forum, Dean Koontz certainly does.
Not trying to throw a spit ball at the hippest table in the lunchroom, but for the rest of the geeks who love masterful plotting and intricate, eccentric, layered characters (or just like John Irving and consider him much more than a beach read), I had to throw in my two cents.
So I called Hunter last week to find out my application status and my call was returned today by THE Peter Carey. I wanted to scream like a pre teen at an 'N Sync concert. Instead I just chirped at him in rapid fire like some sort of baby chick on speed.
Almost makes up for that $125 app fee...
Free reading update: Lolita is beautiful! I haven't enjoyed a book like this in awhile. I also must admit how stupid I suddenly feel, I've had a dictionary next to me and started to create an excel word list.
Aw, vocabulary, food for the writer's technical soul.
Ha! I'm a high school teacher, so I work at least 10 hours a day on the weekdays (I take a lot of it home, just finished work for tomorrow actually), and anywhere between 2 and 8 hours on weekends, sometimes more. Last week, they made us turn in final grades on a Tuesday when our midterm exams were the last Friday, which meant I, no joke, worked the ENTIRE weekend.
I don't like my job, but it won't be the end of the world to do it for another year. It's not teaching high school that I dislike, it's that my school does nothing about student (mis)behavior, unloads useless work on us, treats us like shit, and tolerates racist/sexist comments from one particular staff member without any reprimand. It sounds like I work in hell, and while I do not like it very much, I honestly cannot find other work... geez, I sound like a pathetic coward :( I did say something to our principal, but she didn't really care. He also called one of our students a "ho" by the way!!!
I rent a two-bedroom eighty-year old home for a whopping $785 a month! With a newer kitchen, a fireplace, and a fenced in yard, walking distance to two lakes. Take that New Yorkers and Californians!! Booya! Just kidding ;)
@4maivalentine
PETER CAREY CALLED YOU BACK?! Jesus christ! What the hell am I doing calling the grad admissions department and talking to the lay people there?!
I think I share too much about myself on this blog. In future, I'll be much more discrete... :)
I realized when I went to make a list of favorite writers for a couple of my schools that most of the stuff I’ve been reading and loving lately is fairly recent stuff by women – off the top of my head, Jayne Anne Phillips (Black Tickets! Holy shit, get on that), Amy Hempel, Grace Paley, Alice Munroe, Flannery O’Connor, Jamaica Kincaid, Aimee Bender, Miranda July, Matthea Harvey, Anne Carson, essays by Zadie Smith… Plus stories in random collections like “Stone Animals” by Kelly Link and “Reasons for and Advantages of Breathing” by Lydia Peelle.
I think in schools they assign a lot of men, plus Virginia Woolf. So it wasn’t until I went forging out on my own that I discovered some wonderful ladies. That should definitely be rectified. Curriculum overhaul, yeah! I mean I do love Virginia Woolf, and reading her as a 12th grade female was pretty monumental, but there’s so much more out there.
I also really loved The World According to Garp. Whatever I do what I want.
Re: Jayne Anne Phillips, Black Tickets
One of my favorites. I just read this recently too. She even has a short piece in it that is about working at Cedar Point (she calls it Maple Point, but the references to Lake Erie and the specifics of the experience make the truth obvious!), where I worked for 3 summers. The piece has a special place in my heart!
The entire collection is excellent.
Gotta throw in some of my Irving appreciation-
The Cider House Rules and A Prayer for Owen Meany are wonderful pieces of work. I don't have much more to say beyond that those two books are among my favorites and I find it hard to knock the man who wrote them, no matter what else he's written or what other people think of him.
http://www.poormojo.org/cgi-bin/gennie.pl?Rant+47+bi (An old battle/controversy). Irving isn't Koontz. Obviously. Not that there's anything wrong with Koontz either. Yes, names like the latter may bring sneers in communities like this one, but a lot of these folks are laughing all the way to the bank. They aren't trying to write they next great American novel and they admit it. They are trying to tell stories and reach A LOT of people. Some writers do a pretty good job of walking a fine line between two worlds thus getting sneers and praise from both sides. Irving seems to be one of these writers. It's an old argument (that always gets people riled up) with a lot of strong feelings on both sides.
@MostlySwell, mostly, but other as well (teehee)
Sorry if that came off as accusatory, I meant the entire post tongue-in-cheek, and hence inserted the "few" for my own amusement. My literary collection does include a fair number of women authors-- especially Southern (Welty, Porter, and dear Flannery, of course)-- and I second whoever mentioned Paley and Bender. Also, as an Ancient Studies girl, I'd have to point out that my "pre-1950" was also ridiculous. I mean, pre-100 CE we have Sappho and both Sulpicias. And between the fragments still extant and they obvious influence on later poetry, I suggest they rocked the joint.
Love that everyone's listing male v. female influences, though. Though, I must mention... as a non-essentialist feminist... I don't think there's anything inherently different about a male and female voice. (Sorry Cixous!)
Charles,
Love Lydia Peele (and the other Lydias - Millet and Davis). I also have to give massive props to Stacey Richter and Julie Orringer (I think someone mentioned her collection earlier).
re: wisconsin
I'm pretty sure it means admission decisions. They already sent out emails if your application wasn't complete. I got one January 7 that said:
"Thank you for your application to our Creative Writing program. While there are many items present in your application file, it remains incomplete. Please log on to the My UW portal to check the status of your application. You would have received log-on information from the University of Wisconsin Graduate School shortly after you submitted your online application. If you no longer have this information or believe you never received it, please contact the Graduate School at gradadmiss@bascom.wisc.edu. If your writing sample is present it will be evaluated. If your writing sample is not present, we invite you to submit it immediately by email attachment. Additionally, if you believe we are in error about any missing items, please feel free to contact us. This is your last notification. Thank you."
So presumably, they got all that sorted out around then, which means they must be talking about admissions now, right?
If you're a numbers-minded person, Christmas just came early, here (scroll down at sidebar).
Be well, all,
Seth
P.S. Probably one more surprise tonight--maybe even a kind of big one.
Thanks Seth! Invaluable as always.
Gotta join in on the John Irving love. He is my favorite writer. Well, one of my favorite three anyway. Our program has a novel craft class and this fall the professor had the class read A Prayer for Owen Meany. Irving is a genius.
What big surprise is coming tonight Seth???
mind=blown
University of Wisconsin at Madison (1.46%) [12/824] 2010
I should clarify...
1.46%!!!
Thanks, Seth! Oh my...
more people applied to u of florida than syracuse? than hunter? ay yi yi!
all panic aside, much gratitude, seth!
ps @gotbiscut i'm also sitting here crunching numbers. vomit.
Why is there a 2G next to wisconsin?
Yeah, some of those acceptance rates are miniscule. Ugh.
On the positive side, I applied to at least a few schools that didn't make the list. Hopefully because their acceptance rates are high(er) rather than because there's no data available.
Thanks, Seth. That's really interesting (if nauseating) information.
Cheers!
Scratch that last comment. The only three schools I applied to with double-figure acceptance rates are Wyoming, George Mason and Columbia. The highest of those is 15%. Double ugh.
The only one I didn't see listed was LSU, but I probably just overlooked that. :(
Re: Wisconsin
I don't understand the 12/824. I thought there were 629 fiction applicants. Are they combining the 6 who were accepted for poetry last year or are they (gasp, no way!) taking 12?!
Yeah I had calculated Wisconsin as 6/629 aka a 0.95% acceptance rate for fiction this year. Which makes 1.46% sound just peachy. But it sounds like it's fiction and poetry combined.
Seth had posted the below on P&W:
The 585 number on TSE is a two-genre (2G) number. The last time fiction app numbers were known at UW (prior to this year), the figure was approximately 390 to 400 if I recall correctly (629 this year). The last poetry app numbers known were between 190 and 200. Hence the approximation figure of 585 (2G). UW has generally showed a trend, like most MFA programs, of 2 fiction applications for every 1 poetry application. So the 2G number for UW is now 824 (629 + 195), but that's an under-estimation of the program's popularity, as data trends would suggest UW--having experienced a monumental surge in popularity--could expect around 300 poetry applications next year (when poetry apps are next read by UW), meaning that by the 2011-12 admissions cycle we should expect to see Wisconsin's 2G numbers approaching 1,000, which at this point is a plateau only Iowa and (of late) Texas have reached. That's not surprising, given that current trends are showing Iowa, Texas, and Wisconsin as strong--in fact rock-solid--top 5 programs.
Oh. Also, I wanted to inquire, the total number of applicants doesn't segregate the fiction from the poetry, right? I think depending on the school there are usually more of one than the other, though they usually take an equal number of applicants. Am I right about this?
Does anyone know where the application numbers come from? From the programs themselves?
I'm a bit of a lurker/occasional poster, but I'm wondering how I check this mysterious Fall 2010 Acceptance List... its been mentioned a few times but I wasn't able to find it... it sounds like a few people from a few schools have heard (if i'm reading the thread correctly)- and I'm wondering where people saw this info?
Coryann,
http://sethabramson.blogspot.com/2010/01/2010-data-bank-cw-mamfaphd-application.html
Thanks WanderingTree!
And also, oh no, this seems like a dangerous habit to get into. oops.
Wow, thank you, Seth!
While a couple of the programs I applied to are under the 5% mark, I was happy to see a few around 15 to 20%, and the others not listed (hopefully because the acceptance rates are higher). I suddenly feel in less of a terrible frenzied panic!
Kitty,
Actually, the vast majority of programs--90%+--take an equal number in fiction and poetry.
Unless an acceptance rate indicates it is only for "{Fiction}" or "{Poetry}", it is a two-genre acceptance rate (i.e., for all fiction and poetry applicants to a given program).
The big surprise: the preliminary 2011 Full-Residency MFA Rankings (Overall Rankings) are now online. I recommend reading the Introduction to the rankings also; they emphasize how much we can rely on these numbers.*
* = Mind you, I don't mean "rely" on these numbers in terms of making life decisions based primarily on them--I don't recommend that at all. I mean "rely" in the sense that these numbers do measure something that is real (even if it's only one small element of the matriculation decision, or should be).
Funding rankings coming shortly.
S.
SETH!
THANK YOU!
It IS X-mas come early! This is my favorite waiting game distraction!
I know that this comment is going to jinx me and doom me, but... It's more hopeful than I thought! Alabama has 225 applications across 3 genres. I'll probably still get rejected, but I feel like I have a fighting chance. No good is going to come of this hope, right? I was probably better off with the fatalism I was living with an hour ago!
Seth, who took the poll that ranked the schools for the "2011 MFA Rankings: Full-Residency Rankings". Current MFA students? Applicants?
Just to clarify: the application totals represent the most recent data available. Unless it says "2010," it does not reflect the 2010 numbers. Consequently, most of the numbers are from 2009, and some are from 2008 or 2007. So, for instance, I'm afraid to say that Alabama's application totals appear to have skyrocketed this year, though I don't have the final tally.
Pencore: if you click on the first link in the overall rankings post, it'll take you to the methodology article for last year's rankings (which appeared in Poets & Writers in the November/December 2009 issue). Hopefully that will answer your questions (the same methodology has been used here).
Be well,
Seth
Seth,
I may love you. thank you!
Hi Seth,
You're awesum!! But . . . I can't seem to find the new rankings . . . maybe it's a sign I should go to bed :(
Favorite female writer: Barbara Tuchman.
Oh My Lord, Seth...
You are amazing.
wow, come back from choir and look what I've missed! I am both completely excited and kind of upset how high all of my schools are in selectivity! Ah well, keepin' the faith.
Cratty,
Scroll down in the right-hand sidebar at this link.
Be well,
Seth
Oh. Ha ha - I feel sheepish. Thanks, Seth. OK. I'm going to watch the Australian Open, cuz this info is too much of a burden on my poor nerves. I'll tackle it in the morning.
Seth--
You mark UVA as having old (and therefore probably inaccurate) application numbers... do you speculate that 621 is now terribly low, high, or not so different?
Hi Gena,
It's almost certainly low. If I had to ballpark it, I would guess 700 to 800 this year. Mind you, this is just based on trend-lines and experience, I'm not claiming to have the hard data on that.
Best,
Seth
Seth, Oh, did I mispeak? I think I knew most took the equal amount in poetry and fiction, I meant to comment on the number of applications for each genre for each school (maybe there are 600 total, but 400 applied fiction, and 200 poetry so the odds are different.)
Anyway, thanks for all you do. Crazy stuff, man.
So. Why're there so many more applications this year?
The rankings?
The recession?
The renewal of writing in our republic?
Sorry, Kitty, my fault, I misunderstood. Yes, the usual ratio is 6:3:2 (fiction, poetry, nonfiction). Or 2:1 for a two-genre (2G) program.
S.
To have a resource-producer like Seth around for us Mfa applicants is kind of the best thing ever. I mean, there's no comparison in another field. Seth, you may be the most appreciated statistics nerd of the web right now. Just saying.
Although those numbers! Holy shit. I mean, I couldn't wait till they got up, and now I will go back to my corner and dream sadly of how unlikely it is that I will be entering a program. haha.
Hey Seth,
Virginia Tech's teaching load is not accurate on the MFA package page:
Should be 0/1, 2/2, 2/1.
Thanks Seth!
I can’t believe it’s “easier” to get accepted to Harvard Law School and Harvard Med. School!
I’m officially depressed now.
I’ve also been kicking myself for not applying to Portland State.
@Seth and whomever it was that asked about why numbers are up this year. I had been debating about an MFA and decided to take the plunge when your article came out in P&W. Maybe there are other factors for other folks. For me, it was the right timing - smack in front of my face right when I had to decide yeah or neh for this year. So, for all the criticism from "the establishment" - you may actually have played an enormous role in their increasing popularity. (You probably know that, but it's nice to have validation. Right?)
By the same token, you have some role in the increased competition among us, as well.
And, an increase in transparency.
@Cate
Yes, but you would have to take the LSAT or MCAT - which is quite a bit different, I would say. And, it being Harvard, you might have to know someone or have a family member who attended. (Do they still do that?)
@Gena
Thanks for that clarification on your wit. Face-to-face is always better, eh? I run into being misunderstood often. But, honestly, even though I didn't catch the joke, I wasn't worried - just wanted to be clear from my end.
From all of the posts, I see I have way more reading to do than I can accomplish. Maybe I'll pursue women's studies or something up that alley after my MFA, with an emphasis on creative writing and writers. There were so many relevant comments today with regard to what women authors have to offer. wow.
and, BTW, I didn't know this column was still active - I've been over on the "Apply for an MFA in Hong Kong" column, wonderin' where the party was. LOL
Re: The ridiculous numbers
Remember that those are yield-exclusive numbers if you're looking for a little more hope.
For example, even though Montana is 20/475, it actually admits 40 right from the start (per its website), knowing that it'll probably get about 50% of the admitted students to commit. So we're looking at about an 8% actual acceptance rate, not 4%.
This is all in Seth's introduction if you scrolled past it.
K, thanks for calling us out on not reading the introduction :P But seriously, good point.
Wow. Thanks, Seth. It's good to see you back. Perversely, this makes me feel better. I had imagined unbelievably astronomical and nebulous numbers in my head, and knowing about the possible yield-inclusive percentage and fiction:poetry ratio helps get perspective on it.
I'm going to sleep tonight.
Mostly Swell, while some universities still practice alumni/family/personal connection favoritism, it is highly frowned upon by the large majority of colleges and universities. I know a some people from high school who were admitted to prestigious institutions based on some really sketchy factors (i.e. he went from almost failing H.S. to being accepted to one of the best universities in the country). But I know a lot more people from college that worked hard, took advantage of every opportunity presented to them and ended up getting accepted to Ivy Professional and graduate programs without having an "insider" advantage. I think institutions are trying to bridge the socio-economic gaps of student bodies. Many top tier institutions have become need-blind/need-aware and have pledged to meet the financial needs of students under a certain income bracket. Many "Dead Poets Society" prep schools that were traditionally feeders to the Ivy League have also made pledges to meet the full financial need of students coming from families of modest or little means. In other words, I think the whole favoritism thing happens from time to time but is probably becoming rarer.
Seth,
Thank you SO MUCH for getting this info up! I appreciate it!
I added up all of the percentages of the schools I applied to, and it comes to 102%. Wouldn't it be nice if that meant what it sounds like it does?
lalala I'll pretend.
@Seth- Is this right?
University of New Mexico (10.91%) [11/109] recent
I thought they accepted 10 people in each genre. Do they only admit 11 total across all three genres?
Thank you, Seth!! Much numbers-based procrastination to be had at work today, both exciting and terrifying (so, no different to the rest of this process, then). You're a legend.
Once again, I have to ask: Seth, where is the data for the number of applications coming from? From schools themselves? Can you break down which ones you verfied with the schools and which ones are estimates?
Got confirmation emails from Vermont and Pacific saying my applications are complete. Come on, Warren Wilson, where are you? I sent your packet out the same day as Pacific!
Apparently, I won't be hearing anything final until after "1 march" or "in 4 weeks"...grrrr....must be patient. Anyone have any idea what the acceptance ratio is for low-res compared to traditional? Just curious...you don't here that much about them. I've heard they are about the same, but hardly anyone here seems to be applying for them.
*hear* that much...(typos are particularly embarrassing here, for some reason)
Happy Mozart's birthday, all!
Is everyone enjoying Seth's present? I feel a lot more at ease. I'll still probably be roundly rejected. But it feels a bit less impossible than it did before. Except for the big schools, that we all knew were impossible admits, the admission numbers are lower than I thought. The percentages are still crazy low, of course. The criteria are ridoncolously subjective. And the admission numbers will probably rise dramatically this year. But I feel like I have, at least, a shot of getting in someplace. This is more confidence than I've had in a while!
I know that the numbers won't make or break me -- whether I'm competing against one person or 1,000, the situation is the same: either some school will like my poems and let me in or no school will like my poems and I'll get in nowheres. But while I'm in this period of limbo, not knowing how my work will be received, I'm finding this data really comforting.
UNLV gives me so much hope! An estimated 50-60 poets? Sweet Baby James, that seems do-able!
Hey Trilbe,
Yup! I love the fact that Seth is back again and looking after us by giving us what we're so thirsty for - info. data. numbers. Love it. It's extremely comforting not to feel so in the dark.
Personally though, i wish i'd applied to Wyoming, UNLV and 'Bama this year...becos applying to a handful of big boys and nothing else was incredibly dumb! For my programs, as far as I can figure out, it still boils down to being that lucky 1 person in 100, and I'm still working on being Zen about that. Gah. And WAAAH.
*And, breathe...*
@seth
Thanks so much for the updates. SO HELPFUL for this lurker. I have two questions about Brown: is the 750 verified for this year or is it pulled off the website?
Also does anyone know what the ratio of fiction to poetry to playwriting (to say nothing of electronic writing) is at Brown?
Thanks!
Hey guys =)
Does the 'application selectivity' data mean that universities are done reading through all of our applications? I hope so because I'm mentally exhausted already.
Fausto,
As explained in the methodology article (and in even greater detail in the print version of that article in the November/December Poets & Writers), only publicly-available data was used--for a series of epistemological reasons articulated in the article and in other writings I've done on MFA programs (and thus too long a discussion to reproduce here), programs were not contacted directly but judged on a) promotional materials, and b) other materials made available to the public by the programs (e.g., via successful non-researcher queries, via rejection letters sent to applicants, via admissions workers being permitted by their programs to disseminate data online, and so on). If data indicates that it is from "2010," it is from this application cycle; otherwise, it will indicate "2009" (from last year), "recent" (meaning from the past five years), or will have no notation (in which case the date of the data is estimated as approximately the beginning of this rankings project, in 2007 or 2008). The programs are aware that they can correct their data at any time, and some have done so. Where I have posted data I am personally concerned about--i.e., with respect to accuracy--I have either put "unconfirmed" or placed it outside the rankings/lists proper for special viewing. Where I have extrapolated from partial data, I have put the notation "estimate." The less direct the data's connection with the program proper (i.e. the more indirect the route by which I've discovered it) the more I have insisted on various cross-checks and/or second confirmations in order to put the number up without an "estimate" or "unconfirmed" tag. Keep in mind that I have access to so much data now, and so much secondary and tertiary data, that I'm often in a position to "reject" new data as being improbable or out of keeping with prevailing regional and national and genre-based (etc.) trends in MFA admission. I have no doubt certain (a small percentage) of the numbers are close to accurate but not exact or near-exact. I also have no doubt that in 98%+ of cases the data provided is far better than no data--i.e., is close enough to the precise and/or relative mark that it is probative. Keep in mind that all of this data has been collected and consistently amended and re-amended over a period of more than three years--this was not an over-the-weekend, fly-by-night accounting. That too should assuage concerns.
Best,
Seth
Hi animalistic,
If you look at Brown's acceptance rate data, you will see the notation "web" (in blue) next to the numbers.
Be well,
Seth
After looking at those numbers, I'm very much considering non-fiction next year.
So I just found out that one of my recommenders spelled my last name wrong on some or possibly all of the letters. Argh! He's an excellent professor and wrote a positive & praise-filled letter, which I really appreciate, but he's also kind of absentminded, hence the spelling mistake. Granted, my name is long and French and has been misspelled in far more creative ways in the past. I'm really hoping this won't affect anything...
After looking at these numbers and seeing the way they are compiled, I'm inclined to ignore them altogether, unless each entry explains how the data was compiled.
Laura-
I'm in the same boat! Only my last name is a simple, single Anglo syllable that apparently no native English speaker on earth can get right the first (or 50th) time. My professor misspelled it the way almost everyone misspells/mispronounces it, and I'm very confident that programs will not become confused by one or two letters being off in my last name. Hopefully you will not encounter any problems, and everything will be filed correctly.
Crisis averted! Turns out that my name was misspelled on the letter he gave me to read, but not on the letters actually sent to the schools. Relief!
Jasmine, I hope that it won't cause any problems for you either. I don't think it would. I've actually gotten some correspondence from the programs with my name misspelled, and a couple of them called me "Lauren," heh. The misspellings on recommendations are really annoying but hopefully won't cause major issues!
@ Fausto - Yes! Ignore the numbers. (Seth even admits they only go so far.) This isn't a "numbers-driven" thing. It's not a baseball league. It's not an Obama program. Why are we (applicants) getting all business school-y on this whole thing?
We are after all talking about the elective affinities that arise from creative work and creative endeavors. (Think Seth would agree.)
My theory: we're all s$#%tting ourselves with nerves so we turn to these numbers as a security blanket. There's anxiety when you put something out into the world - hence we crave this hyper-quantification that is IMO mostly meaningless. That, plus the Internet tempts us to "crunch the numbers" on whatever we want (and to treat information as a shamanic substance). Information is the medium. Note information is not truth. It's a talisman. It doesn't mean a thing. Only the work matters!
(This whole thing is not intended as a dig or rant against Seth - he has been invaluable to this community in prying open a closed process, and has always been straight up about the utility and proper use of his work.)
Fausto,
It is certainly your prerogative to ignore them-- whatever helps you sleep at night. But please do not insinuate that Seth manipulated or haphazardly assembled data. It is rude, especially to someone doing this for free to help curious applicants.
I don't think it's rude. I never said or insinuated he manipulated data, either. I'm saying, taking these numbers with a gigantic grain of salt. The numbers that are not verified by the school, are, at best, misleading.
Got a letter from Sarah Lawrence -- all decisions will be mailed by March 17. eep! If accepted, I would probably need a funding miracle in order to go there, but I couldn't stop myself from applying -- mostly because two of my favorite poets ever teach there (Marie Howe and Tina Chang), and I would be ecstatic to have even the tiniest chance of working with one of them.
@Fausto
I don't think unverified data would necessarily have to be misleading, as it could be correct or at least in the right ballpark without actually having been verified. I would say the figures could be at very worst a little bit misleading, but, at best, a relatively accurate reflection of the current applicant pool. Just my perspective. Seth has spent the past few years developing his research methodology, and thus I think his figures have earned the right to be taken somewhat seriously by us applicants. Though everyone is, of course, entitled to his or her own opinion.
Wishing us all the best as we wait,
NM
Thanks so much, Seth! I'm confused about Montana's selectivity ranking, though. In one ranking it's shown as having received 475 apps across 3G, but the acceptance rate ranking says that it takes 20 of those 475. I was under the impression that they take 20 for fiction only, so if the 475 number encompasses 3 genres, wouldn't the number of slots and therefore the acceptance rate be higher?
Now that it’s almost February, does anyone else check this blog with trepidation? I am fearful of the day acceptances to *my* programs are posted whilst my voicemail/inbox/mailbox remains empty.
@Cate - Absolutely!
@Cate. Not yet. Despite Seth's useful (and possibly very telling) acceptance date listing, I think it's unlikely that I will hear from any of my programs before March 1 and most of them around March 15 or later.
It might be worth noting that most of the programs I applied to had deadlines of January 15 (with a few as early as Jan 1).
That being said, I still check in every day. But I haven't started to feel that trepidation yet.
Cheers, and Best of Luck to All!
@ Cate - something I find interesting is that Seth's success in his methods and data conveying how small the chances are have driven more applicants such as myself to apply to around 10 schools (for me, 15), where before we might have done fewer. So, in responding to the numbers, we perhaps drive them higher.
Since we can all only go to one MFA, what I wonder about is the shuffle. Some top applicants will have to choose between programs, and schools will then call whoever's next on the list. How does this shuffle generally play out, especially when, in theory, you have until April 15 to decide on most programs? Given the higher number of applicants, it would seem there would be much more fluidity of offers (which might compensate some for the low percentages).
(Yes - I know I just railed against numbers obsession a few posts above.)
@Jamie. Yeah, that's why yield-inclusive acceptance rates are kind of a holy grail. With them, one could see whether the chance of getting into a basket of schools was actually more or less likely, as it would hint at the (in my opinion) meaningful difference between the number of -applications- and number of -applicants-.
Cheers!
CB,
When folks say Montana takes 20 for fiction only, that's a yield-inclusive number (i.e., 20, say, are taken and the expectation is 50% yield, so the entering fiction class is 10; likewise with poetry). The data is yield-exclusive, as explained in the Introduction. That means that the "10" rather than "20" figure is used for each genre. This is necessary for a number of reasons, not least of which is that getting yield data out of the programs--their most closely-guarded secret (for PR reasons)--would take a divine being and a crowbar the size of Rhode Island. Or maybe Fausto could do it, I'd really appreciate him making that attempt--as would we all. I anticipate a 0.5% success rate and a project time of approximately 500 man-hours; on the other hand, we'd then have (in Fausto's view) data from 2 or 3 of the nation's 200+ MFA programs that was worth anything.
To quote the movie Tommy Boy:
Store Clerk: Yeah, I'm picking up your sarcasm.
David Spade: Good. 'Cause I'm laying it on pretty thick.
Be well,
Seth
Fausto,
You've probably heard the term institutional memory. A less common but equally real term (and phenomenon) is communal memory. The online MFA applicant community is a coherent, cohesive, and uniquely "located" one--and in the context of this community, I'm basically Father Time. To be clear, that's not a boast (don't misunderstand me)--what I'm saying is that because the online MFA applicant community has an 80%+ annual turnover rate (for reasons I presume are obvious, i.e. acceptance into a program), I'm the only person in this discussion presently (I believe) who was an active member of the online MFA applicant community in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and now 2010.
Why do I mention this, you ask?
It's simple: You have, I presume, parachuted into the middle of the online MFA applicant community for a three-month bid--as long as it takes to find acceptance at a program of your election. You are surveying your surroundings as would a Martian if he parachuted into Central Park tomorrow. You don't know the history of the location or its community. You have no frame of reference. So you ask, publicly--rather than merely using the data or not, as you could have done without opining publicly about it--a question along the lines of, "Why isn't MFA data collected with NASA-like efficiency and an endless stock of manpower, money, and politico-cultural will?" It's a subjectively reasonable question from the perspective of a Martian in Central Park. Objectively, it is (the question, not you, Fausto) imbecilic.
{More in a moment}.
{Continued from above}.
It's imbecilic because the starting position of MFA research, in the context of the national MFA community, is that the data you desire does not exist. Not in the form you require it or through the procedures you demand it. When AWP's member organizations--who have a vested interest in supporting their labor-union-equivalent parent organization--were asked to provide the data we're speaking of now in a 2007 AWP survey (i.e., were asked for it by MFA programs' representative national organization), nearly 60% of programs refused to provide the data. Their theory: We have nothing to benefit from releasing the data, and everything to lose. We'd rather (thought they) that applicants remain in the dark about whether University of ________________ gets 1,000 applications per year or 34, or how many are admitted per annum.
The newsflash I'm giving now was evident several decades ago: They were right. They had nothing to gain by releasing the data.
A second newsflash: The lack of such data threatened, as late as 2005, to destroy the online MFA applicant community. We had nothing to say to one another that had any ring of accuracy to it, and no means by which to say it well and publicly. The typical 2005 conversation on MFA programs went like this: "Anybody know anything about University of Texas?" That was how it went. Period.
In this context, data that is 95%+ accurate is so infinitely better than the alternative--zero data--that it makes my head pound like a jackhammer to think on it. Moreover, the data-collection project, begun in 2006, and with a manpower roster of 1 person and a budget of zero dollars, has had--quite evidently--the secondary impact of merely by existing tending to make itself more accurate. The reasons for this are many and varied and not worth going into in such a short space (and this is the wrong space, too). The point is: Use the numbers or don't; if you do not, you will be at an enormous disadvantage to those better-informed than you. And I disagree that the numbers are "meaningless"; used properly, they are powerful. Used improperly, they are destructive. I trust everyone here, armed with both common sense, a fifty-year history of publicly-published rankings in U.S. higher-education culture, and (not for nothing) my own articles on the rankings and their use, will use these numbers responsibly.
Be well,
Seth
Jamie, excellent point. In my brighter moments I think this: overall, there are X amount of fiction places on all the good programs in total ('good' being subjective) - we could take an arbitrary but not ridiculous figure - 100 or so. Therefore ...(Argh! Data-scrying! Info-shamanism! Maths!)...if there are approx 1000 total fiction applicants, there just might be a chance that although I'm not the best, I'm one of the top 100 or 150 applicants in general. Which means, as things shuffle out, a place somewhere.
Does that even make sense? I can barely grasp the logic - surely it's faulty... Mostly because the top 100 applicants out of 1000 will be wildly different for every program and you can't assume anything. I ain't gonna. I'll just keep wishing I’d applied to more than only 6 top flight programs and just wait and see what happens, without sh*ting myself too much. Or swearing too much here.
hey, i was just curious to see if the numbers came from the schools themselves, or an acceptance letter, or from an admissions office worker. you know, hard verifiable data. i admire all the hard work you put into these statistics, but i think it's only fair for me to wonder where the data comes from.
Fausto,
All of the numbers originate with the programs in some way or another; to require (or hope) that the proximate (last-in-the-causal-chain) messenger for all data-points was a deputized representative of the programs is simply fanciful thinking in the American culture of MFA programs. (That's a whole 'nother essay.)
Numbers are like subpoenas (and I used to be a process-server): Once seen, they cannot be ignored. These numbers carry the double benefit of not only being almost entirely correct, but also of prompting programs to be more transparent in the spaces that they control--brochures, information sessions, and, most importantly in the Internet Age, websites. Since I began the rankings process in 2006 so many schools have amended their websites to make them more transparent (and to make both my research and yours easier) I've completely lost count--and I'm someone who can more or less name the 200+ MFA programs in the United States by memory now.
Programs now have something at stake in non-disclosure. Should any program see an error in the data--and I know (I do not merely speculate here) that the programs with a national reach are all aware of the data--they have my e-mail address and can correct it instantly 24/7. I have never failed to correct a number any time a program has contacted me (on the rare occasion any correction has been necessary or sought); I make these corrections immediately (as soon as I get to a computer).
Be well,
Seth
so how many of these numbers (for acceptances and applications) come directly from the schools?
i.e. how many schools have e-mailed you to say the numbers were wrong
Eli,
I think your logic makes perfect sense. Obviously once a committee gets down to the top 100, an applicant's chances become more complicated. Get down to the top 50 or top 25, and I'm guessing that every applicant is deserving enough to be admitted in some way. Maybe this is where fit and looking at other application materials come in? Unfortunately, a lot of programs only pick 10 or fewer. While several hundred applicants could be automatically rejected based on weak portfolios, there is no guarantee for even a very strong applicant when the percentages are THIS low. I applied to 12. Looking over the numbers again, I wish I had applied to at least a couple more.
Hey, y'all. I'm emerging from short-term lurkdom after much second-guessing the impulse. To the earlier comments: I kept lurking because I only applied one place, THEN came upon this wonderful blog. Somewhat embarassing. Fingers crossed for all, though.
@Fausto: I think, after much perusal of this and the PW speakeasy, that Seth may simply, understandably, be defensive about his rankings. Understatement of the year? I was amazed by the number of people who actually went after Seth, maliciously, for putting together the best information available in his free time.
@Seth: Thank you for all your hard work, very helpful for me to read all this information and study the data (even in retrospect). I was interested, selfishly, to see Ole Miss go up in several of your new rankings... any general info on why this is?
Fausto,
At least 100 (and likely many more) MFA programs are aware of the rankings. They were (in their 2009 iteration) published in the magazine-of-record in the field of creative writing, Poets & Writers, and since 2006 have been viewed by well over a quarter of a million unique visitors online, so this is a conservative estimate. I personally have been in contact with dozens of programs about them and about MFA admissions issues generally.
Since 2006, there have been four instances in which a program requested a correction. Each correction was made within a matter of hours of the error being identified.
Now, to be honest with you, I can only think of three corrections that were ever made at the request of a program. I'm saying "four" because I'm willing to spot you one--my memory is strong but, like anyone's, fallible.
Be well,
Seth
that's cool, seth. thanks.
Hi Kati-Jane,
There are many reasons, the most substantial of which is that Mississippi is a newer program; prior to the TSE rankings emerging in January of 2007, Mississippi had never been ranked among national MFA programs--i.e., it didn't appear in the 1997 rankings done by U.S. News & World Report (using data collected in 1995 and 1996) because the program didn't exist yet.
Second is that Mississippi's excellent funding package wasn't widely publicized until the TSE Master Funding Ranking was published in 2008, along with a funding-only ranking of MFA programs in the November/December 2008 issue of Poets & Writers.
Third is that the general trend in MFA admissions (for many reasons, including the economy but also the changing view of what an MFA is and can do) is for applicants to prefer having more time to write and thus to favor three-year programs over two-year programs--and Mississippi is one of only a handful of fully-funded three-year MFAs in the United States.
Fourth is Barry Hannah. Fiction-writers adore him.
Fifth is Beth Ann Fennelly. A poet that poets admire, so her recent hiring made Mississippi a program that appeals, now, not only to fiction-writers but poets also--this drives up a program's overall ranking.
Sixth is location--in a sense. Applicants are more willing than ever to, broadly speaking, "cross the emotional and intellectual threshold" of being willing to consider programs in the South, as it has been revealed in the last three years that the best programs in the country for funding tend to be located in the South and the Midwest.
While several of these items (and this is just a partial list) were true in 2007 and 2008 as well, with each new admissions cycle more applicants are doing proper program research prior to applying--which means that any program's inherent qualities are more widely known, appreciated, and acted upon in application and matriculation decisions.
S.
Oh my gosh! It IS Christmas! My mind is so happy to have numbers to play with!
Does Seth's data make anyone else want to take a research methods class? Sooo impressive!
Thanks, man! You have no idea how much it is appreciated.
I had a general question about Creative Writing MA versus MFA. Only a few schools - UC Davis, Texas, Northwestern - offer MAs in creative writing. Is there any real merit to having one over the other, and is there any real difference? In other words, is one degree more beneficial to have than the other?
Trying,
As far as I understand, the MFA is a terminal degree and an MA is not. I think most people who do MA's either go on to finish with an MFA or continue on to a PHD. I think some programs have an MA to PHD program.
Thank you Seth! I know Barry Hannah, the location and the funding (what I could suss from the website) were a lot of my reasoning... makes perfect sense. :)
I don't want to break in on Seth and Fausto, because that sh*t is fascinating, yo, but @Eli -
From what I have observed from following this blog for the past few years, the P&W forum and, recently, the MFA Chronicles is that you don't apply to a lot of schools as a way of beating the statistical odds, but as a way of increasing the chance that your writing sample is going to land in front of sympathetic eyes. There's no logical correlation between the statistical probability of acceptance and where an applicant actually gets accepted vs. where s/he gets rejected -- every year, many people are accepted by highly selective programs while being rejected by much less selective programs.
It seems like the people who do well, and are accepted by a large number of the schools to which they've applied, are the people who did a lot of research on the faculty and graduates of the programs they applied to and, through their research, found schools that were more receptive than others to the type of work they were doing and then applied to the largest number of those schools that they could.
You could, like, apply to a school that has a 15% acceptance rate but that won't do anything real to increase your odds of being accepted if that program, despite it's higher than average acceptance rate, doesn't like your kind of work. You know? It's easy to look at the selectivity data and think, Damn it! I wish I'd applied to ... because my odds of getting in there are so much higher than the odds of my getting into the 7 schools I've applied to. Fortunately -- or unfortunately -- this system doesn't work like that.
You could apply to 15 schools, but still only have a real shot at getting into 5 schools if 10 of the schools you've applied to aren't compatible (for whatever reason) with your work. Or you could apply to a more highly targeted list of only 7 schools, which could actually give you a stronger real chance of being accepted than a less-targeted list of 15.
The problem is, though, that the qualities which might make you a good fit for certain programs isn't easy to figure out. Many acceptees have posted about how an aesthetic fit wasn't what got them into their program, but that it was some other sort of fit. So, since the criteria are so subjective and targeting is so freakin iffy, if we really want to get into an MFA, it's in our best interest to apply to as many schools as possible. Not because of the numbers and the statistical odds, but because of the largely unquantifiable variables in this game.
The numbers are fascinating...like a spectacular car wreck...or the faded chalk outline at an old crime scene. I really shouldn’t look. But I can’t help myself. I can’t help but marvel and fret and speculate...
At this point, I think magic would be more helpful than data. Does anyone own a crystal ball? If so, email me please.
@ ever_trying
Actually, while relatively few MA programs get attention on this or any creative writing blog, there are in fact many, many, many MA programs across the country that give the option to focus on creative writing, i.e. taking workshops and completing a creative thesis. In addition to the ones you mentioned, other relatively well-known examples are Ohio University, Mizzou, Miami U of Ohio, Texas Tech, Cincinnati (for some reason most of these particular examples seem to be in OH), etc. I ended up applying to three creative MAs: Bucknell University, Northern Michigan (which offers both the MA and MFA), and Alabama-Birmingham. Other less commonly mentioned creative MAs I can think of off the top of my head are North Texas, Tennessee, South Dakota, Binghamton, and many, many others. When I was researching MA programs, I actually found it to be quite common to find MA programs with a creative focus/thesis. Even my alma mater, a regional state university in rural Georgia, offers a creative emphasis with the MA degree. These programs don't get much press, if any, but they're out there. And some of them are surprisingly well funded. I seriously recommend that everyone look closely at universities other than the ones we read about every day online--there are some real gems in there.
Best to all,
NM
Last night I dreamed that Hunter sent out letters saying that they had received too many applications and decided to not admit anyone this year. They were just too overwhelmed and couldn't deal with it.
I think I'm officially losing it...
Did anyone apply to the same place they did their undergrad? Has this topic already been discussed?
@ MissKitch123
I considered applying for an MFA with my undergrad university because I loved the faculty, but one of my professors explicitly advised against it. He said that if I ever planned on trying to get a teaching job, doing my grad and undergrad at the same place made it look like I wasn't willing to relocate, and would make me a less desirable candidate.
@ever_trying - As people have mentioned, the MA is generally not considered a terminal degree in the field. That said, there are some very good programs. I did the MA program at Hollins (before they changed to an MFA), and it was a great experience with very talented writers and an attentive faculty.
Good luck in whatever you do!
I have a question about low residency programs. I was recently accepted to Vermont College of Fine Arts in Fiction. I'm very excited about the idea of going there, but I am still waiting to hear from Warren Wilson. What's the word on the street about the pros and cons of these two programs? Thanks for your responses!
Miss Kitch 123 -
I was advised not to apply to grad school where I did my undergrad, because each university kind of has its own little aesthetic/universe going on, and I should spread my wings, see what's out there, and learn from a different set of values/priorities/atmospheres. I think it's good advice. While I enjoyed the English department immensely at my undergrad, and their MFA program is pretty decent, I'd like a fresh start for grad school. I wouldn't want my writing to still exist within the parameters, experiences, and influences of my time and life during undergrad.
You guys! If a program (with a Dec 1st deadline) contacts me and asks one of my recommenders to not only try and re-upload their rec to the grad site, but also email it to the program directly, does it stand to reason that I might be under consideration at said program? Eh?! They don't care about recs if they don't like the sample, yah?
I'm trying to tell myself it doesn't mean anything, but it isn't working. Because it is definitely one of my top choices. And so, I crazy.
Also, speaking of MAs- Eastern Michigan (EMU) has a really, really cool looking program. I shouldn't even mention it, because now I'll have more competition, but Christine Hume teaches there, and it is super interdisciplinary, if you are into that sort of thing. Also, runs some sweet journals.
Danielle,
Not to fan the flames of your excitement (but I will)... I'd probably be thinking the exact same thing you are with the whole deal about your LOR writer.
Keep thinking good thoughts!
@Zoe-Oh man, that's kind of an awesome dream about Hunter...though I'm sure I would wake up unsettled from it.
My real life panic came when Michigan said they'd received my application..but not my writing sample (mailed standard about 2 months ago). Kind of an important part, eh? That was the ONE school I didn't have a delivery confirmation/SASP/online notification for and I was trying to not be paranoid so I didn't call to follow up. So I had to overnight it and now feel like a dunce. Luckily, they're giving me until Friday morning to get it there, and the post office guaranteed delivery by tomorrow at noon. Crisis averted, to the tune of an extra $20.
thanks, Pencore! This is my third time around, so you'd think I'd know by now not to get my hopes up prematurely, but I guess not. :)
no worries, Cate, some parades need a little rain!
The program is Amherst. I should totally add that they have been super friendly throughout this process. My first writing sample was held up at the post office and they were really cool about it.
@ Jenna- one of my writing samples, that HAD delivery confirmation, was held at the post office in the town I sent it because I dumbly sent it Priority Mail, which requires a signature. At least many of these programs are super friendly and helpful and won't disqualify right off the bat for postal errors.
Danielle,
I really do hope it means good news!
Did any other programs have Dec. 1deadlines?
@ MissKitch123
My undergrad university has a good MFA program (fully funded at that!), but I was advised not to apply.
One of my LOR writers is a professor in both the MFA and undergrad programs. He said that since I had done well studying creative writing in undergrad there, it'd be a waste of my time (and the profs') for me to do it all again for an extra two years. While he encouraged me to get an MFA generally, he thought it was redundant to get it by studying on the same campus, under the same people, and within the same (tiny) department as my previous four years of work.
I took his advice, and didn't apply there--though I did apply to comparable schools, and would recommend my alma mater to anyone else.
Danielle,
I would suspect it's a good sign if they're asking for your letter now! Of course I'm just guessing. But thanks to the comfort of Seth's new data, I'm having an optimistic day.
Good luck, competitor! I'm really excited by the Umass program too.
Seth,
Those numbers are very sobering. So sobering in fact that I decided to join my friends for a week in Mexico during a time when most schools nofity. Thank you!
Question: I mailed about half of my departmental materials for certain schools via. priority mail. A signature is required? I had a rule not to call and check on the receipt of materials. You know, que sera sera. Hmmmm....
Trilbe (and Seth),
UNLV's deadline hasn't passed yet, so we can assume that the # of applications would increase and the program become more selective as more submissions come in, yes? This goes for other schools as well, I'm thinking, whose current data (based off of 1G or more) is available and they have later deadlines? So would I be correct in concluding that the selectivity list (primary) is still pretty flexible to change?
Thansks for doing all that you do, Seth!
LATE RESPONSE @ UNIVERSAL CHAMPION!
YES! But be grateful, I was so shellshocked that I sounded like an idiot! If anything, if he manages to remember me when he reads my sample, he'll just be like *ahem, assume accent here* "Oh yes, that one thar, a little batty, if I do say so, HAHA!"
Deeedeee,
A signature is only required for Priority Mail if you didn't check in that box on that slip at the post office(um...on the right section), that asks for one. If you DID check it, no signature is needed and it will be delivered normally. The PO clerks usually check in with you if you didn't fill it out, so I'm sure you did!
@ Deedee- I'm sure you are fine. I did mine at one of those automated-things and went too fast. You'd probably know by now if the depts. didn't get them.
Has anyone tried to guess how many fiction applicants there are this year in total?
It's obviously impossible to do, but anyone want to take a guess?
It might be easier if we just tried to guess the number of fiction applicants to the top schools on Seth's list. I'm guessing those applicants are the ones that are most likely to be visiting these blogs and most likely to have submitted around 10 applications each.
Or it might be easier to use Iowa as the given since most people apply to Iowa. Let's say, 1/2 of all applicants apply to Iowa? Maybe that's too high. Maybe 1/3 apply?
So if Iowa received 800 fiction applications then maybe there were around 2000 to 3000 fiction applicants this year ...
Just a guess.
@Seth
Thanks again for all the work. I love reading the stats.
I have a question though if you have the time for it. Isn't Texas a 4G school? Fiction, Poetry, Screenwriting, Playwriting. I'm not sure if they offer CNF. I thought every year they hand out some Michener fellowships to screenwriters and playwrights, so I'm guessing their total applications figure would include people applying for those genres as well. No?
Hey Sam,
I'll play the fiction app guessing game with you.
I'm actually on the other end of the spectrum in terms of guessing the percentage of fiction apps who applied to Iowa. I'm thinking more along the lines that 3/4 of all fiction applicants applied to Iowa. And if I plug in that number to the 2009 Iowa/fiction applicant numbers, that would mean 1,124 fiction apps to all programs?
That 1,100 number is way conservative pitted up against your 2-3,000 guess.
Hrmm.
Hi Sam,
Iowa received 1,209 total applicants last year, and TSE polling this year shows that 65% of applicants apply to Iowa (past years have confirmed this figure, and rendered AWP's claim that a miniscule 10% of all applicants apply to Iowa beyond laughable). As with certain programs, like Columbia, where one could argue (rightly) that those who don't research online are more likely to apply than those who do, making the "% applied" figure for Columbia on TSE slightly low (right now it's around 7%; I'd guess that when you add in non-researching applicants it goes up to 12% to 15%), Iowa is a school non-researching applicants are more likely to apply to because you've probably heard of it even if you don't do much research. Consequently, that 65% figure for online polling is probably 70% in reality. If 1,209 applicants is 70% of the total applicant pool, that would mean around 1,725 total applicants to fiction and poetry programs. Given the standard fiction to poetry to nonfiction ratio (6:3:2), we would then add in between 300 and 400 nonfiction applicants (remember there are far, far fewer programs that offer the nonfiction genre, few enough that most nonfiction applicants are themselves applying to close to 25% of all programs nationally), giving us a total applicant pool of perhaps 2,200. Even if we presume, for whatever reason, that that's low, we certainly would not expect the figure to go over 3,000 (remember we are not counting doctoral, low-residency, or MA applicants, though admittedly none of those applicant pools is very large).
AWP recently claimed there are 12,000+ annual applicants to MFA programs alone--again, a laughable claim based on all the available data, and, indeed, a claim AWP bases on what data we don't know (AWP doesn't publicly release individuated hard figures for any of its studies, only percentages).
When you consider that a school can rank in the national applicant-pool Top 25 with only 330 applicants (that's Top 25 out of 200+ total MFA programs), and that the average applicant now applies to between 12 and 15 programs--with the overwhelming majority of applications going to only 50 or 60 total programs--that 3,000 figure sounds about right.
From there, you can reverse the figures to get down to the number of fiction applicants nationally: approximately 1,700.
Be well,
Seth
Hi again Sam,
I can tell you that playwrighting and screenwriting applicants to Texas are excluded from the overall poll (because it would create an uneven playing field; for the same reason, nonfiction applicants are excluded--most schools don't offer the genre). That said, these applicants do participate in the MFA Weblog community to some degree, so I have a sense of the number of applications Texas receives for those genres. Were I confident that the MFA Weblog captures a large percentage of the drama- and screen-writing applicant pool, I'd confidently state that the applicant pool for those genres is terrifically small; in reality, I know that some folks who apply to drama- and screen-writing programs only apply to such programs and therefore decide not to be part of the larger fiction/poetry/CNF MFA applicant community. Even so, the number of applicants solely in those two additional genres is very, very small.
But your point is well-taken--some small percentage (my guess would be 150 maximum) of Texas's applicant pool is in a genre other than fiction or poetry. And I'll admit to not knowing that percentage. So what I'll do is I'll add a 4G next to Texas, but--an important but--it's worth noting that, even were drama- and screen-writing applicants taken out, I think it's pretty clear that Texas's relative ranking (second nationally) would not (and will not) change.
Be well,
Seth
I applied to my undergrad uni, but I was advised if I was going to do that to at least leave the university for a couple years (which I did). They encourage students to take a break between the BFA and the MFA program at my old school, if at all possible. One of the reasons I applied to my undergrad uni's MFA program is because I had the same fiction teacher the whole time I was in the undergrad program (and he rarely teaches MFA fiction), and I didn't have the MFA nonfiction teacher for my BFA nonfiction classes.
That being said, it's always smarter to have as many different people reading your work (especially if they all have different backgrounds/perspectives).
Thanks for all the information, Seth!
@Seth
Again, I am so impressed by your dedication, perseverence, etc etc etc.
It occurred to me today that all of us applicants, pending, are like Schrödinger's cat, simultaneously alive and dead, or accepted and not-accepted, until we open the box or receive word. Given the subjective nature of the decision, it feels almost random to me. Like you've said countless times, we need to be intelligent in how we view these numbers. (Maybe you weren't suggesting we resort to physics, but, oh well. I'm hopin' you'll forgive me and laugh at the analogy.)
Anyway. Thanks for that 1700 figure. You probably have it posted somewhere, and I missed it between all the other numbers, but what is the actual number of spots available, round-about, for F, P, CNF, PW? The 1700 number was an estimate of fiction applicants last year, right?
And, how do you tolerate all of these questions? My oh my. Much gratitude!
@Seth,
Can't say 'thank you' enough.
For a creative writer I seem to have some sort of penchant for figures, numbers, percentages, statistics. I'm an expert at excel spreadsheets. I actually scored decently on the math section of the GRE.
But anyway. I love numbers, but YOUR numbers -- these numbers -- I've been tabulating all day. My little brain is so happy to have something to do besides *wait* ... And I'm reassured. Aside from Florida, I actually seem to stand some sort of small chance at all the other schools to which I applied.
THANK YOU SETH!
Trilbe, yo, I hear exactly what you're saying about beefing up the count of sympathetic eyes, and i follow your logic about compatible schools... and not being able to know quite exactly what that means. Thanks for the eloquent explanation - you nailed the ambiguities and why it seems like such a crapshoot.
Just been dwelling on all those March/April acceptances and the fact we might not be dealing with any known quantities till April 15th-ish - that's a long time away - think i gotta force myself into non-obsession for a while, otherwise these weeks are going to crawl along far, far too slowly.
On the side...
I received an offer for a discounted subscription to "Writer's Digest" - anybody know if this is a worthwhile publication? Ay, there are so many.
Hi M.S.,
If I had to extrapolate based on my data, I'd say there are between 1,600 and 1,800 spots available in fiction and poetry, across both types of MFA program--low-residency and full-residency. Probably closer to the higher end of that range. If we look just at full-residency programs, average program size drops slightly, and we're dealing with 143 programs rather than roughly 200, so I think 1,200 to 1,300 total fiction and poetry spots would be a reasonable estimate (i.e., around 800 to 850 in fiction, and around 350 to 450 in poetry). This does not include doctoral or creative writing [non-terminal] M.A. applicants, nor does it include nonfiction applicants (NB: Whose 2011 rankings will be coming out momentarily).
That would make the overall acceptance rate for fiction applicants (i.e. sufficient acceptances to result in enrollment in a single program next year) somewhere around 50%, which sounds about right. For those who research programs online prior to applying, and participate in communities such as this one, that figure is undoubtedly higher--because such individuals apply to more programs on average (by a lot)--so for this community we could be looking at a total acceptance rate (under the terms articulated above) approaching 80% or even slightly higher. Needless to say, there are some who get acceptances and turn down their offers (due to poor funding packages), so the annual turnover in the online MFA applicant community may be something like 70% to 75%.
Cheers,
Seth
@Seth
Thanks. Very helpful. I'm not as dead as I thought. (:
Just spent a half hour googling Schrödinger's cat. Whew!
Only two more business days left in January and no top 50 notifications yet! I kind of want to run away for two months. But I won't, because then I'd miss Lost.
Yes, that's all I'm contributing right now. Too many nerves!
Do programs ever give feedback on rejected writing samples?
@Courtney
Nice diversion?
I, on the other hand, am trying to solve a narrative POV issue I have with story I'm writing. I think I need the reader to understand my protagonist's subconscious influences on her conscious thoughts and subsequent behavior. In other words, like any of us, she has a sense of self based on events and interpretations of events that she has pushed out of her conscious thought. So, 3rd person omniscient, limited - but not limited to only what she knows, but inclusive of all of her mind - and no one else's. Anyone have any suggestions on written material I might refer to for emulation?
@G.A.
I was wondering that too. Wouldn't that be swell?
You have a cat in a box with a flask of deadly poison. If it tips over, the cat dies. If it remains upright, the cat lives. Until we open the box, we don't know one way or the other, and after a time, our minds begin to try to guess at whether the cat is dead or alive, and it's as if the cat is both dead and alive. It's like what we're doing with our admission status. We're looking at data and each of us is attempting to determine the probability of being accepted. But the determination is not made on objective data, but is subjective. Since we don't know specifically who is reading our writing sample and making the determination, there is a fair amount of randomness in this - and thus, we are like the cat and like the observer, trying to ascertain the outcome.
Alas, we have to wait until we hear. The number that comforts me the most is the overall acceptance rate of about 50% among applicants. (I'm not in the "pool" of applicants who were on this blog before applying. Some of you get the fine number of 75%.)
@Mostly: Excellent diversion. Yay for quantum physics!
@Golden: Not likely at all. I mean, like, really unlikely.* There is a possibility you could get some kind of comment if you are waitlisted, but it will be akin to "we liked the tone; humor; style; zombies."
*Source: 14 previous rejections in total.
Anyone else not recieve their self-addressed, stamped postcards back from Indiana or Minnesota? IU's peculiarities have been well documented in this space, but I haven't heard anything about Minnesota. Seems a simple thing to just drop the card in the mail. Maybe they just got lost.
@Jessa
Furthermore, who expects a cat in a box to not pounce all over the place, immediately knocking over said flask of deadly poison. In which case, what sort of uncertainty principle was he trying to explain, anyway? LOL
Despite the fact that there are at least five different Lauras on this board and really, I'm sure no one reading this knows which one I am, I just needed to post this here. Especially since almost everyone I've called hasn't picked up their phone.
I got an email today informing me that I was accepted at Alabama for poetry!!! And I've been jumping up and down ever since.
Good luck to everyone out there--I've been reading these mailbags for months and you all sound like incredibly interesting people. I hope to actually meet some of you in the fall!
Congratulations Laura! How awesome!
Congratulations Laura! That is a great program. I hope you get to celebrate tonight!
Oh wow that's wonderful Laura! Congrats!
Oh my gosh, Laura! That's great! Congratulations!
congrats, Laura!
Congratulations, Laura!
That's a great program! Congratulations, Laura!
...provided this isn't the nutjob Laura I used to date, the bug-eye blonde one who looks like a tarsier that fell into a bottle of bleach, but since she acts more than writes and talks about acting more than acts, I highly doubt you are the same person. :D
Cheers!
Congrats Laura!
also, *crossing fingers that not all the Bama calls went out today*, since, you know, I applied there too.
but i'm stoked that they are at the notifying process!
and speaking of being stoked:
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/99487
wow, fabulous Laura. Congrats!!!!
Is this it for you, then? 'Bama is your top choice, so you're outta here??
Best of luck to you.
Congratulations, Laura!
AHH!! Congratulations!! Seriously, I'm so happy for you and all the future Bama acceptancees! It has begun!
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