Courtney, that's good news about them being out all week. I think I'm going to go run ten miles and see if I can exhaust myself calm. Thanks for the info.
@Courtney - I'm also waitlisted at Purdue, in addition to Florida and Notre Dame. What Porter told you about the ten is correct. I think the shortlist is ten and from that ten, they offered spots to four of their top candidates. That means we are anywhere from #1-#6 on the waitlist. He said I was the best-looking of the bunch, among the males. I believe it.
ASU peeps! Okay, I love that we have a real back and forth going on for all of the ASU "not yet rejected" folks. Here's the latest that I know: ASU was on spring break this past week, and Karla most likely wasn't even in the office the past few days. Also, for poetry (sorry, I don't know the fiction stats)all the offers they made were supposedly accepted. I was told I was most likely on a wait list, but that because all the poetry spots were accepted, the odds were slim-to-none that I'd get in. Now, there may be a little more hope for you fiction folks because I have no idea if all fiction people accepted their offers.
Anyway, I was also told it was in my best interest to take any other offers that come along. So far, my only offer is with a program with no funding for me the first year, and unless I strike it rich really soon, I can't afford $30,000+ for my first year.
So, ASU peeps -- let's keep each other up to date on here. Perhaps some of us will find ourselves at ASU -- best of luck to all of us.
Wow, really? Okay, that changes the odds up a bit. I'm at fixittuesday at yahoo.com if you want to chat options.
PS..Why isn't Purdue WAAAY up there in the rankings? It seems to me that they have everything a top program should have, and yet they are sitting deep into the overall list. Seth--are you out there? Do you have any wisdom on this?
I'm with Courtney---I have a vague memory of some Illinois acceptances like in February, but other than that it seems it's been silence from Urbana. Anyone have any insight?
Waitlisted at Notre Dame, for the second year in a row.
Rejected at Pitt, despite having already been accepted three weeks ago. As I type this, my roommates are downstairs giggling at my acceptance and rejection letters lying side-by-side on the kitchen table.
Congrats to all the recent acceptances, you guys are doing great!
Since it is getting close to that time, I was curious to see where people are thinking they will sign on to, and then maybe your list of schools that you are going to let down, which then would open up more spots and maybe make any of those still waiting feel better, as positions will be opening up left and right.
If you're on a waitlist at one of koru's EIGHT whopping acceptances, you'll get a gift soon. She's a poet so it'll take time for her to whittle down from eight to seven to six...
But expect some gifts from her. She has plenty to give away.
Also, Dolores Humbert will turn down 4 or 5 fiction spots. This girl is amazing.
I would, but the faculty from some (or all) of my potential schools may be reading. I have some favorites and not-so-favorites. And they know who I am. Yikes!
Got a very, very nice acceptance letter from SAIC via snail mail today. Almost as nice as the phone call. A sweet fellowship and a pretty good scholarship.
Since I'm going to have to decline, one of you SAIC acceptees are going to be pretty happy when you get this package. Good luck!
Received rejections number 9 and 10 today via snail mail: Indiana (expected) and Arizona (less expected). That makes 10 rejects with three schools left: Illinois, Minnesota, and Ole Miss. Great job to everyone who has been accepted and won't have to put up with this next year. Extra congrats to those with multiple acceptances.
I'm probably going to end up at UF, although I'm waiting to hear from UVA to make a final decision. I will, or already have, let go of spots at the following schools:
Hunter, Sarah Lawrence, UNCG, Montana, and IWW (that's a waitlist spot).
Has anyone on here been accepted to San Francisco State's M.A. program (not the MFA)? I applied only for that one and haven't heard anything yet and am wondering if they notify for both at the same time.
I am a huge admirer of both Padgett Powell and David Leavitt. I've had the chance to talk to David on the phone, and he's a really fantastic, funny guy that I would love to study with. Also, it's a three year program, and the last year is devoted entirely to working on the thesis. The funding is excellent: $15,000 per year, with the option to do summer teaching as well. I want the teaching experience, but they don't overload you. It's also a small program (six in fiction), which I like. And since the funding is equal, there isn't that cut throat thing going on that you might find at some other schools. Overall it just seems like a great fit for me.
I posted this awhile back, but if interested parties missed it.... here it is:
Turned down poetry offers at:
University of Idaho (TA waitlist) University of Alaska-Fairbanks (TA waitlist)
and I'm still deciding between the University of Washington and Colorado State, so there will be another position opening at one of these places. I'm having a hard time deciding, and may fork the money over to visit each school before decision time. Good luck to everyone who's still waiting to hear, and those trying to make such big decisions
Thanks! I'm glad to hear you liked Iowa State and Ames. My offer at UNH didn't include a TA, but I hope one of your schools is able to come through with funding. Best of luck!
I got my official acceptance letter from Texas State today... It's nice to have it on paper to cancel out all those stupid rejection letters and to confirm that I was not called by mistake...
In completely unrelated news, I saw a film today at the Cleveland International Film Festival called Van Diemen's Land about Alexander Pearce... Too bad I didn't know my Australian history or I might have known what was coming *AUSTRALIAN HISTORY SPOILER ALTERT* Tada he was an infamous Cannibal. And they ate the good looking one first. Also the entire thing was subtitled even though it was 90% in English because they assumed the strong old accents were too hard for us Americans to understand.
I wrote it over on the driftless site, but forgot to mention it over here....acceptance into NEOMFA for poetry via snail mail on 3/16...but turning down the acceptance, in case any other poets are wait listed or awaiting news.
Are you turning down a funded spot, or non-funded? I've been accepted to the NEOMFA (in fiction) but I'm waitlisted for a teaching assistantship. So if you turned one of THOSE down, I'd be super happy :)
Which school was going to be your gateway? I got in to Kent and Akron, I'm on a funding waitlist at Kent and I don't know about Akron's teaching assistantship situation yet.
Kitty In A Cathouse, Nope! The letter is just from the Graduate School giving official acceptance. I think that the adcoms are meeting on Monday to make funding decisions so I assume that we will learn our status sometime next week. Hopefully they all go to those of us on the blog!
Did you ever get that acceptance email from UCR? I had the same exact situation as you did (got the invitation, called and was told I should be getting an email acceptance) but I still haven't seen such an email. I'm pretty sure we were given a verbal acceptance, but it's really difficult for me to not be paranoid.
How do you know that you did not receive funding from UNH? I was told that I was still in the running for aid about a week ago, but when I got the official acceptance e-mail, no mention...I know the funding situation is bleak, so I'm worried.
Congrats to all acceptances!! I can't keep track. What can I say? I'm no Trilbe...
Still waiting on Columbia...How big is the program? So big that they will still be notifying throughout this coming week? I wonder how long it will take for my rejection letter to get to me...
I'm fiction. Rebecca Curtis is the one who called me (and left a voicemail). I'll be calling her back Monday as she asked me to, but I was just wondering if they even had the funding info yet. I know it does tend to improve in your second year if you hustle, so even if they don't give me much, I'll probably go. It's not everyday that one gets into an Ivy League school, afterall.
Feel free to hit me up as well: missedpoints@gmail.com
My email was from one of the poetry professors (are you in poetry or fiction or CNF?) and it stated very specifically in the email that I was not going to be offered funding this year. The email implied that no first years would be offered TAs, but it was definitely an implication as opposed to a clear statement.
Who was your email from? It could be they haven't made final decisions about funding in some genres.
I'm in for fiction. The e-mail is from the Dean of the Graduate School. It encourages me to call Thomas Payne, who would be my advisor. Any mention of funding is conspicuously absent.
Congratulations @Quincy, and all you other people hearing good news! :)
I just wanted to share - I read here that someone recently received their Indiana U. rejection letter, and so I thought I'd go online and see if I might get my official reject there. (I'm in Washington State and so I imagine the mail'll take it's time!) I typed in my name, birthday, and email to try to log on... and got a message saying "no such entry exists in our database." Haha, ouch! I'm pretty sure I done been deleted :P
I have received two emails; one from David Rivard, who teaches poetry, and one from the Dean. The one I received from the Dean also does not say anything about funding. The funding info I got was from the first email, from David.
I'm sure you could call the Dean, or just get in touch with your prospective advisor. Or, you could call the helpful Admin. Assitant and ask her who you should call. It might be that the fiction people are going to receive an email with more information (as the poetry people did) sometime next week - I've noticed that Fiction info seems to be tailing CNF and Poetry info by a few days.
BTW, has anyone out there received a rejection notice from University of Florida? Or Portland State University? It's been nearly 2 weeks since folks posted acceptances on here and I haven't received anything. I emailed them a week ago asking when I could hope to know and I've gotten no response. I'll probably move to phoning them on Monday. It seems like the gap between email/phone acceptance notification with them and receiving their rejection letters is going to be even longer than the just about 2 weeks it was (for me anyway) with Michigan. Does anyone have any insights into their process and why the gap? Have they just decided that we're all monitoring each others' acceptances on here and therefore they don't need to notify us of rejections?
Sorry to rant, I'm sure no one else out there is bothered by this..;-)
@Daniel - no, I totally know what you're talking about!
I think one reason schools don't immediately notify all rejections is that they want to hang on to an unofficial deep waitlist, in case they get a whole lot of admitted students turning the university down. It sounds like ASU is doing that right now... although I think ASU has notified most of their rejections already (like me!). I don't know why some schools (like Florida) wait so long for ALL the rejections. Maybe they want to reject everybody at one, so they wait until they're sure they can fill all their positions? I suppose that way it's more courteous. I don't know, though - I don't like the wait!
Ha, Daniel, you reminded me - I've been wondering about U of Oregon. I thought I'd heard about some rejections already, but I wasn't sure if I'd just made that up. Anybody know? I'd appreciate it!
The phone rang at home. I picked it up on the first ring. It was my wife. She asked, "Were you sitting by the phone all day? Jeeez!" She thought I was waiting for some (random) MFA director to call me. Honestly, I don't know why I was sitting by the phone.
@Zoulou: I don't know about rejections for Oregon, but I was waitlisted via snail mail (fiction) hope that helps somewhat?
I'm wondering aboutt his whole unofficial waitlist thing too... I have not heard a peep from Brooklyn or New School and its ofically making me go INSANE.
As for columbia-- we can expect a few days of notification right? do i have to give up hope yet?
Okay, supremely long-time lurker. I've been lurking since 2006 I believe. I've lurked from my days living in Japan, then from Michigan and now from the Emerald Shitty of Seattle. Yep, I've been actively perusing this site forever and have put off applying for all this time. I've been terrified of not getting in somewhere, because I've wanted to pursue this degree since I learned of its existence. I know that it's hard to get accepted if you don't apply, but truly I've been teetering for years because writing means so much to me, and sometimes it has been easier not to know if I'm good enough.
Conclusion...I probably suck. Quick rundown: English/ Creative Writing undergrad. LORs from professors that are novelists, and one from an book editor I interned with during college. I've read both editions of Tom's book. I won a First Place CW award in undergrad, worked as the General Editor for the undergraduate student lit mag, have a fairly good GPA, acceptable/ reasonable GREs and included the awarded story in my portfolio, but alas...it seems it was not enough. I know, I know, the fat lady hasn't sung yet, but I'm officially at 10 solid rejections. And that blasted Indiana envelope cut my knuckle so now I'm contemplating hysteria or perhaps a meltdown of epic proportions.
I hate to be a Debbie Downer because I can only imagine how infuriating it is to be waitlisted, but I so wish I would be at least put on someone's list. To be outright rejected repeatedly, it is heartbreaking. I am alright as of right now, but having hope at this point seems foolish or not worth my time. Now what to do with the next year of my life that is the question...
Jury Still out: Bowling Green Minnesota Penn State Illinois Washington Hollins
I know, I sound like a broken record as everyone at some point seems to feel as if hope is completely lost, but I just needed to put it out there I guess.
Also it doesn't help that every single friend has gotten into grad school this year. They all seemed to have applied on a whim, to one school, some straightforward numbers based admissions game is all that was required. Sometimes I wish I could want desperately to be an accountant or an engineer, some logical pursuit that would lead to a job that might someday pay off student loans.
just received two "we really enjoyed this blah blah blah, it nearly made it in blah blah blah, maybe if you adjust this blah blah blah and resend" rejections
guess i should stop complaining. big journals don't usually give feedback. blah.
I'm also waitlisted at Oregon, and I have to say, my fingers are crossed that we both get in, because I LOVE YOUR BLOG SO MUCH. Just spent the last half hour reading it, open-mouthed in horrified fascination -- too real, man, too real.
@Emma: hahahaha. i know right?? Where do i GET these things? i should probably just have sent those posts in for my writing sample... at least I would have stood out...
Jenpopa, never lose hope! No one can tell you your writing isn't good enough, not even yourself, until you've tried and tried and tried and can try no more from sheer exhaustion. I need to say this to myself, too, but DON'T GIVE UP! Take heart, you still have six freaking schools to hear back from!
As for me...Damn Irvine! Finally got my thin one-page letter rejection letter today. Wonder why it took them so long?!
And what about Florida and Brooklyn? I received a letter in the mail asking for a transcript for Brooklyn, but I have no idea if this is a good sign or not. I hope these schools let me know soon (and Hawaii).
I've spent so much money applying and I really don't want to push this waiting game into April when my decisions are needed for my acceptances...
This is my second year in the MFA app process for fiction (first year did not go so well), and I've just reached the point where I'm pretty sure I know how it's all going to break down. Here's what I've got:
Rejections - bunch of them
Acceptances w/o funding - Montana
Acceptances w/full funding - Idaho, Eastern, Ohio State
I live in Seattle, which is also where most of my family/friends are. As such, I would like to attend a program in the region, which would give me some distnce from home and allow me to focus, but would also allow me to visit home a little more frequently. In terms of prestige and funding, Idaho pretty clearly trumps Eastern. But I'm having a really, really hard time deciding between Idaho and Ohio State, and I was hoping you all could help me.
How important is prestige? I have a close friend who is in his second year at Columbia (fiction), and who has been in my ear a bit about how important prestige is. He tells me how a big writer noticing you can make your career over night, how you get to meet people you'd never get to meet in a smaller program, etc. My personal arguments for Idaho are many. For one the, the funding their offering me is phenomenal. Full tuition waiver, generous stipend, in-state fees waived, plus a couple of good-sized grants. Their offer beats Ohio State's by a mile, plus I think I'd rather live in Moscow. But, Ohio State seems to trump Idaho in terms of prestige - Ohio State seems to pop up around 20-40 on prestige ranking, where Idaho shows up around 40-60.
So what do these rankings even mean? Are they worth thinking about? Would I be an idiot to say no to Ohio State and Montana in order to accept Idaho's offer? I would just really appreciate anything you MFA mavens have to say regarding my options.
Thanks so much. And to all of you still waiting to hear, best of luck. It isn't over 'til it's over.
When you're miserable with the entire country between you and your family/friends, are you really going to be able to comfort yourself with how prestigious the school you're attending is? Is that going to be enough to get you through three years? Prestige alone makes a shitty blanket.
Maybe that's a bit harsh. You probably wouldn't be totally miserable anywhere, but my basic point is that there is way, way more to this decision than prestige. And to my ear (eye? we're reading this, after all), your friend from Columbia sounds like he is merely trying to justify to himself his own choices by influencing yours. But maybe I'm just being a dick. It's 6am and I've been awake 3 hours for no reason.
What about other aspects of the programs? It sounds like you're very interested in Idaho's offer, and all that's holding you back is their supposed lack of prestige. If you went to Ohio State without being thoroughly excited about it, would you regret not attending Idaho? I would encourage you to put aside prestige and try to consider all other factors. If you can afford it, visit places to get a feel of the atmosphere and have questions answered face to face. If this isn't possible, try to be in conversations with current students and faculty at each program to clear up your decision-making process.
This process is often about fit and comfort. There is more to that than who is going to ooh and ahh over where you got your MFA. I would encourage you to follow your gut on this rather than the gnat in your ear.
Thank you for your comments. This is exactly the kind of honest feedback I want.
Yes, I absolutely agree with you about the perspective of this friend from Columbia. He is definitely trying to justify his own decision to go $100,000 dollars into debt. And yes, I am factoring in more than just prestige.
I guess part of my question is just, Will going to a more renowned school help you significantly more later - w/regards to teaching postions/publications, etc? Or is an MFA an MFA regardless of where you got it in the eyes of employers/publishers?
Thank you. Looking forward to hearing from more of you.
jenpopa - don't lose heart just yet. It isn't over until the very last university writes in. This blog is full of stories of people who gave up and then the next thing they knew they had been accepted. I hope that is how things work out for you as well.
With regards to Bowling Green - if you want to find out quickly and you can stomach it, my suggestion would be to call Bowling Green and speak to the director, Wendell Mayo. He's a really nice man and will let you know where you stand. I recieved an email from the Graduate office to call him about my status and thats what I did.
When people started getting phone calls I panicked and called Columbia - not once but three times trying on different voices with different accents (helps that I've lived in various countries) and was told repeatedly that the bulk of communication from the department would begin on the 22nd. This is after I said I wanted to know about the fiction applicants. I relaxed somewhat only to read about one person getting a call for fiction.
The only explanation I can come up with, after reading the blog, is that they're notifying people in batches and it seems they're trying to get the poetry people first.
Just realised none of this really helps anyone but I guess I needed to say it. C'mon Columbia!
re: prestige and the influence on your future career
Of course I cannot answer that. I tend to believe, however, that writing, and choosing a life in the arts in general, is a crapshoot no matter how many connections we think we might have. There is absolutely nothing at all that guarantees our future success, not even writing something wonderful.
@Micheal - Like Jasmine just said up there, I can't tell you what's best for YOU. I can tell you, though, that for me I think I'd choose Idaho, hands-down. Most of it has to do with funding. I mean, how great would it be to get out of school with NO debt, eh?
If funding weren't an issue, though, and I were just choosing between Ohio and Idaho outright... I think Idaho would earn points for its location in the Northwest and its being a little less "well known." You know - ah jeez, I guess really I'd choose it so I could say, "suck it, all you people who care, I'm a Westerner!" Ugh, oh dear, but there's the honest truth. I'm from Washington too, by the way. I don't know; I think this anti-prestige feeling might be a Washington thing - do you think so too? In any case, I should've said a while ago: congratulations! That's an impressive line-up of acceptances, and I wish you lots of luck - wherever you choose.
@Michael - One of my close friends is applying to Visual Arts and he is almost exclusively focused on prestige and networking opportunities because, in order to have the career he wants, he will need his MFA program to give him an entree with key critics, well-connected artist representatives and influential galleries. My buddy wants a robust enough international career to financial support him. So he's going to graduate school in order to get the things he lacks.
When I first heard his goal, I thought, D'uh! Doesn't every artist want to be supported by selling their all around the world? Apparently, the answer is that, yeah, we probably do all want that, but that the path to potentially achieving that goal in the contemporary visual arts world is heavily dependent on making key connections. Influential connections don't guarantee international gallery opportunities, but the lack of them almost always results in the lack of this type of opportunities.
In the visual arts world, according to what I've been told, different MFA programs have quantifiable track records in different areas. If, for example, his goal was to start with a strong, lucrative regional career, his MFA program criteria would be different than the guidelines he's currently following. If his main goal was to become a teaching artist, he would have still different criteria and act according to that. If his goal was primarily craft development, the criteria would be even more different. Every school my friend applied was chosen based on the program's ability to support his ability to work the way he wants to work as an artist.
I'm telling you all of this stuff about my buddy and his MFA apps in a different field because talking with him about apps has broadened my perspective on how I'm considering the MFA opportunities that I have. I composed the list of schools that I applied to based primarily on what I knew of their faculty and published grads. I tried to pick programs that I thought might offer good mentors who could help me develop my craft. That is still my primary goal, unfortunately, it doesn't help me choose between offers from schools when I think they would ALL offer me great mentoring and development. So, thinking about my friend's criteria, I've started thinking about how the programs are different in terms of the type of writer's life that each is most readily positioned to offer. Like, I believe one program would be my best entree to a teaching career because it offers such strong pedagogical support and unparalleled opportunities to build a strong and varied teaching resume while still in the MFA. I believe another offers stronger opportunities to build my chops as a critic, thinking and writing about other wrtiers' work. I think a third, due to its location and faculty composition, would offer me a strong entree into the business side of publishing.
Basically, I don't 100% agree with my buddy's 100% career-focused approach to choosing an MFA program. But I think I've found some value in his perspective because his approach helped me start considering 1 - my potential life as an artist, in addition to the craft of the artist; 2 - the concrete assets that each program offers, and specific ways that each set of assets could support the development of a viable life as a working artist; 3 - what specific things, besides writing great poems, could give me a happy future; and 4 - what concrete things can I realistically do to put myself in a position to pursue these paths that I believe might lead to happy, fruitful working-writer years.
ThisaRgus post got so long (and douchey, I know) that I had to continue it... And I probably shouldn't be giving my opinion to someone about how to choose, anyway, when I still haven't chosen. But, reading your posts, Michael, I though that maybe your question about prestige was really a question about how each program's position might benefit your future goals. And so I thought that perhaps you might benefit from thinking more specifically about what YOU want and then by looking at concrete ways each program might (or might not) be able to support your pursuit of those goals. Your buddy's idea of prestige and connections may or may not be true. But the more important issue, I think, is how does your school (or his, for that matter) concrete ways to make and utilize that prestige or those connections? Prestige, as an amorphous idea, doesn't offer any advantages. But if that prestige gets you resume-building intrernships and/or sustained relationships with influential people in the field, then that is of quantifiable value. But if you can't define any concrete way that the program's prestige can help you to do the things that you want to do, then it doesn't seem like the prestige is an actual benefit.
Good news today. I finally was able to see my official GRE scores and got a 5.5 for analytical writing to go with the 690 verbal. If those aren't good enough for the PhD program, I don't know what is.
My application is officially complete and being considered by the department. Now, all I can do is wait. Unfortunately, since I applied late, they were almost done with their process. That means my candidacy has to be especially strong for consideration. I hope my publication history will help. On my sample, I noted at the bottom which poems were published or forthcoming, and when and where. Rattle, Spoon River Poetry Review, and Cutthroat, among others. I know I did a much better job with the SoP this time.
Whatever happens with SUNY Albany, I have learned a great deal this time around, so if I do not get in now, I will bring a host of experience to the process next fall. And the d*mn GREs are done and respectable.
My first choices will be the two programs to which I've applied this year (SUNY Albany -still waiting- and UMASS-Amherst-rejected) plus some low-res programs.
I've gone through every emotion in this process. My 17-year-old is much more blase about her application process for undergrad. Of course, she's 2-0-0 at this point and still waiting on decisions from three more schools.
Again, congrats to all those who are accepted. And hang in there to everyone else.
Long, LONG time lurker (who loves each and every one of you!!) has a question, mostly directed at Trilbe, the wise woman of the blog. Somehow the universe misaligned and I was accepted at both NYU and Columbia in fiction... and am really torn about which to choose. Junot Diaz will be on faculty at NYU next year, and I just simply love that man. If funding were not an issue (which it is, but I'm willing to sacrifice for quality), which school would make me a better writer? I guess I'm thinking mostly in terms of faculty and cohorts - which would I learn most from? And then ultimately which would give me best access to a support system (alumnae/mentors, agents, etc.) post-graduation? Thank you SO much for your insights - this blog has kept me remarkably well-informed!!!
MOMMYJ!!! THAT IS SO AWESOME!! All that worry over the GRE... and you KILLED it. Your 17-year-old will one day realize how her mom kicked the GRE's ass.
You've been such a trooper through this whole process... I, for one, really admire your persistence and attitude (I've only been waitlisted or rejected at this point in my app process). If it doesn't work out at Albany this time around, you MUST know that it's due to your late application... next year, you'll definitely get in. Still, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you, bigtime. You're my hero!
tell your friend prestige doesn't mean squadoosh. at least 3/4 of IWW and columbia grads don't publish (not in big time journals) and more than likely end up teaching (if even that). writing is ALL ABOUT your writing. tell your friend the 100K they spend at columbia won't be paid back with their writing, even if one of the five NY publishers gives him/her a book deal. only NY times best sellers are able to do so.
i have no MFA, but i have been published in some heavy journals. win a few contests, take a few summer programs, and more than anything: PRACTICE. in my view, the main goal of an MFA program (other than receiving a degree for teaching) is to find amazing readers. i have three or four. that's all i need.
ok, enough of that. now it's time to go watch cuuuuuse march on.
toby wolff once told me that during the early stages of his teaching career he tried to mold his students into writers he wanted them to be, to force them to write the way he felt they should write. he said it took him a long time to realize this approach was way off. he also said that many MFA programs have a similar process and students with natural ability often find it difficult to gain much from the way the schools are put together.
and don't take this as me bragging about knowing toby, because the only reason i do is that i grew up family friends.
and you future MFAers, take this with a grain of salt. i'm just hope people who are rejected across the board realize it's not the end of the world.
i think i'm trying to pump myself up for the cuuuuuuse game!
this is kinda late, but i am a student at NMSU and i wanted to let you both know that receiving funding at NMSU is extremely common. right now there are only 4 students in the entire MFA program that do not receive funding, and several of them teach elsewhere in the area so as to get teaching experience and income.
It's wonderful you've gotten into NYU and Columbia. But no one can answer those questions. No one can answer how well you're going to fit into either program, or measure the success of the alumni of one program over the other. Whose program works better for you as far as financial aid goes, as far as the structure of the program, as far as aesthetics and faculty? Rather than ask us, you should ask current students at those programs and assess for yourself which you think would be best for you.
That's great news to hear, honestly -- I'm always psyched to learn that a program has better funding than it advertises. But that's the problem -- until NMSU itself acknowledges that its funding is something other than "limited" (its words, not mine), I can't yet do anything with your info. I hope you'll get a chance to talk with someone in the NMSU MFA administration about updating the NMSU website. And then have them e-mail me at sethabramson[@]yahoo.com when they do. It could mean a substantial boost in the reputation of the program if what you're saying is right (which I have no reason to doubt). Not to mention that NMSU not having a webmaster is also keeping applications (and thus selectivity) down. Best,
Ok... MommyJ's mention of her GRE score (690-kickASS, by the way) on the verbal section got me thinking... I had a not so good GRE score (580) and I was wondering if that impacted my ability to get into certain schools... like, maybe I was accepted to the program, but the graduate school had stricter guidelines and required at least a 600 or something...
was there anyone here who had a GRE score in the 500s who was accepted at a big time school?... I know some might be embarrassed to post, but I am just wondering.
Just to blather on: getting the MFA isn't about the statistics you're looking for. And becoming a better writer is a highly personal and individual process that the MFA can help with, but the choice you're faced with cannot be made by comparing student success rates. It will come down to how happy you can be in a program, because you're getting what you want out of it, that will help you make the biggest strides.
@Perpetua - I got a call Friday afternoon (3/19), from Rebecca Curtis. Didn't think to ask about class size or how far into notifications they are. GOOD LUCK to you!!! Fingers crossed that it all works out!!!
@Jasmine - Excellent, excellent advice, thank you so much!!! I think I'm just absurdly trying to quantify in this totally unquantifiable realm, and am realizing this is completely impossible and will absolutely take your advice.
I guess there's no sense being hopeful about NYU anymore. :-(
I applied only to NYU and Cornell (couldn't afford to apply to more schools than that this year - I'm an international applicant). Didn't hear from either - and I'm assuming both are rejects.
Does anyone know if age has anything to do with MFA acceptances? I know they *say* it doesn't matter, but I've always wondered. Ditto with educational background.
I scored 720 in Verbal in GRE (and 630 in math and 5.5 in analytical). I know that's good, but I'm really getting the feeling that GRE scores don't matter!
I was informed that my GRE scores did in fact hurt me. I graduated cum laude from undergrad and with a 4.0 from my first Master's degree, but my standardized test scores have always been pathetic (500s for verbal, 700s for math, which was a complete fluke).
I even received an LoR from an accomplished writer, but I was told that some of the best programs do weed out applicants based on their GRE scores. Of course, the writing sample is #1, but if they have several strong writers, they turn to scores, and out we go!
re. GRE scores. I don't know how all the schools treat the GREs other than what I've read here, which, it's not important and it's only used by the Graduate Admissions Office to make sure the applicant passes set minimums. However, I do know how one school does it. I talked to professor at a low- to mid-level unfunded school in California (I will not name the professor to protect his good name). He assigns points to different aspects of the application -- writing sample, GRE, GPA, LoR. How, I don't know. He may weigh them differently depending on what they are -- obviously, the writing sample is weighed higher than other parts of the app. This leads me to believe that if your GRE is low, other parts of the app has to be higher for the candidate to have much of a chance.
This is how one professor at one school does it. Who's to say other professors don't do it in similar fashion?
I think you can expect a much stronger cohort at NYU than Columbia -- Columbia's acceptance rate is about 300% higher, and whatever anyone tells you it is mathematical fact that, all things being equal, that would lead to a stronger cohort. And a stronger cohort isn't some kind of vague concept -- it actually affects one's day-to-day MFA experience. Plus at NYU there's a shot at some (partial, minimal) funding, whereas at Columbia you're in it for the full $120,000, no question. As to agents, look at it this way -- most are lazy degenerates who'll only leave NYC to go visit a program they heard was good 20 years ago (more or less, they'll visit Iowa, Michigan, and, say, Hopkins); none of them attempt to justify their exorbitant fees and "gatekeeper" arrogance by actually reading up on which programs currently have the strongest writers. But they're certainly willing to tool around NYC in a Lexus if they have to, or have someone come to their office like a penitent -- the point being, if you're in NYC, you're in NYC, and with agents, because they don't know much about their field besides how to drive cross-town or direct someone to their offices, that's good enough. The reality is that they mostly just say (to MFA students), "Contact me again when you've got a ms., kiddo." I think they're usually chomping a cigar while they say this.
S.
@Jasmine
Personally I agree with you 100% -- it's why I wouldn't attend either NYU or Columbia. The key to having a special experience at one's MFA program is having time to write, not having to either work full-time or take out crippling loan debt which will hover over your head for 2 years. But I also think folks should be able to make these decisions however they want; in the same way no one should tell someone to make decisions based on the rankings, if someone with a head on their shoulders decides that, for them, one particular aspect of the rankings means something substantive -- not merely symbolic -- to them, well, that's their call also, right? I think the "everyone's decision process is personal" meme has to run in two directions or else it's just a thin rhetorical cover for one entrenched view of MFA programs or another.
I agree with what everyone's said about prestige -- I think only 1-2 programs in the country offer a noticeable boost to career prospects, and Columbia is probably not one of them, and if it is it only will be for about 4-5 more years -- but I'd also add that, after the top few programs, fit (which I take funding to be a part of) is so much more important than any sort of ranking consideration (which should probably always be a secondary consideration anyway). The difference between a program ranked #40 and #60 should not be seen as particularly substantial, even in the limited "reputation" category you're worried about. But if it makes you feel any better: Idaho seems to be on the rise, and a Wyoming-like leap isn't impossible next year. (Wyoming, ranked lower last year [#70] than Idaho is now [#64], is now ranked just one spot [at #40] away from Ohio State [#39]).
On a side note: While I agree it's wise to talk to current students if you can, a) you have to talk to several at each school, do not base your opinion of any program on a single person (for reasons I hope are obvious); b) do not allow anyone to convince that we can, or you can, or anyone can know what are rightly to be considered "unknowables." You can know a program's funding, you can know whether you like a program's location, you can know how much it means to you to be far from home, etcetera, but "fit with faculty" cannot be known, nor can (without tons and tons of investigation) something like the internal atmosphere of the program. I just want to make sure no one is pretending that something that's a "guess" is really a "personal factor" -- a personal factor is one that is a knowable and is personal; a guess is a guess, and it shouldn't play a major role in anyone's matriculation decision unless you're the sort of person (and sometimes I'll admit I am) who feels better about decisions if you've made them from the gut.
You're being gracious ;-) -- I'm not sure my note to you actually made the sense I was hoping it would, just reading it now. I mean to say that there are definitely some immutable facts -- like that living far from home is going to be difficult for someone who wants to visit home often, or that bad funding puts one into debt, or that higher selectivity does, on average, mean a stronger cohort -- and the only important thing is not that an applicant use one factor or another to make their decision, but that any factor employed is one that is substantive. So let's say that someone is a prestige-hound (and I say that kindly, as I'm sure I have been myself at times): if that person wanted to attend, say, Syracuse over University of Memphis, that would be a decision we might agree with or disagree with, but it wouldn't be one made without some basis behind it -- as the national rankings do go most of the way, these days, in determining "prestige." So in that situation I'd say, okay, if you want to make that decision, that's fine, whether or not I agree with your thought process and use of the rankings. But if someone were to say something that on the surface seems more palatable and more reasonable -- say, "I'm going to attend Syracuse because I know I'll fit in better with the faculty there" -- I'd say, whoa! That's just a guess. Don't make decisions based on guesses. Hope that makes sense.
I don't think I was implying that anyone should make a decision based on unquanitifiables like atmoshpere and fit. But if I was, I didn't mean to. Figuring out the visceral stuff is why I'm often the "go visit" voice among these comments.
Thanks for clarifying though, it makes more sense.
Have I mentioned how much I adore lawyer-poets?:) But seriously your logic is unassailable - THANK YOU for your dedication to our craft (even if I'm I die-hard NYer). There are many of us who would be absolutely floundering without it.
Unfortunately, lazy degenerates are found in every sector of society. They are very good with disguises and have a solid collection of colorful masks. But they're so transparent. Easy to spot them.
So here's the situation: I've been accepted into a pretty good school (ranked in the top thirty via P&W). Despite my crappy GPA and atrocious GRE scores, I've been offered placement at an MFA in poetry program. However, from what I can infer, they offer no funding. After I've earned my MFA I will be over 100,000 in debt (including undergraduate loans) if I am not granted any sort of funding or GSI during my stint. However, they offer such things, but they are in no way guarenteed.
I really, really want to go. I feel that I got EXTRA lucky getting into this school and would probably not get into such a good school, if I were to wait to apply elsewhere. I'm afraid though of what the financial situation will cause for me.
My question is this: Is the financial burden worth the MFA experience? Like I said, I really really want to go and my gut's telling me to pursue it, but I do not want collapse under the financial pressure. I feel that the loan money should cover cost-of-livnig,etc., so I shouldn't have to work to much while earning the degree...but still. According to the loan calculator website, I will be paying 1200 a month for 10 years! EEEk. I don't think I'm going to get this chance again...I was rejected from all the other schools I applied to. What's a girl to do?
Manasi Subramanian - first off great scores. I wish I had those. Second - in my opinion, its more about the writing and if you have such killer scores they help too.
Jillian Lauren - I agree with Woon and J Haley. Last year I was waitlisted at Alabama and Pudue and got into UNW without any funding. I started asking around and found out that applicants often get weeded out due to the GRE scores if the faculty can't decide between two or more strong writing samples. So I chose to wait another year, took the Stanford Summer Writing course, thought of giving the GRE again and re-apply. In the end I didn't give the GRE again but I worked hard on my writing sample.
@ Jillian Lauren - if you end up re-applying next year, why not target some schools that don't require GREs? I think I only had to send them to 2-3 out of my list, and when they said it was "optional" I didn't take the bait.
Program prestige doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things -- unless you're talking about a VERY small sect of schools like Iowa and Michigan (maybe Virginia, maybe Texas). And even though those aforementioned programs are very good programs, I'd argue that the notion of "prestige" is overrated anyway because it is largely vague and unquantifiable.
Instead, as Seth suggested, I'd recommend that you base your decision on known, quantifiable factors -- namely $$$ and geographic location. From your original post, it seems like proximity to your family is important to you. Considering that Idaho is closer to your family (AND that they're offering you funding), in my mind (based on the criteria that your provided), I'd go with Idaho.
i think the website is being updated and i will certainly let the necessary people know to contact you when it is. head of CW connie voisine has a new blog (http://clarabellenmsu.blogspot.com/) about nmsu's CW program, which could be a good info source for prospective students. i think that right now our stipend is about 16k a year, which is more than livable for southern NM.
and to anyone else that would like info about NMSU (program, funding,etc), leave a comment on my blog and i'd be happy to answer any and all questions!
No, you're right, I don't think you were implying that. I addressed my comment to you mostly because your comment inspired my own thought about Emily's situation. Sorry for any confusion!
@Perpetua: Thanks. That's what I figured. Any idea about whether age and educational qualifications figure in the decision-making? Oh and I made a typo boo-boo in my previous comment. That's 720 in Verbal, 730 in Quantitative and 5.5 in Analytical. (Yes, I'm a big fat geek).
$100,000K+ in debt is, for me personally, not worth it. I'm sorry. I actually had this conversation with my dad who went into some debt for a first class education at the - supposedly - best law school in the country. The differences between us are clear: after the MFA, I have no guaranteed career prospects and can't possiby afford to pay the debt, whereas he was a lawyer out of the best law school and could bank on getting a fine job, which he did. He got some scholarships from that school, paid the debts on time every month, and still it took him over ten years to get out of that debt. I couldn't face that without the job security he had. So I didn't apply anywhere that didn't have the option of good funding.
You got in this year, which was a crazy year. It wasn't a fluke. I would put money on you getting in somewhere again, if you decide to apply again. Good luck!
I am of the belief that most AdCom's are consciously trying to NOT let this matter. After all, age discrimination=bad. But they are human after all and I suspect (but don't know for sure) that they fall into the same mental trap: let's nurture the young talent; nurturing the old(er) ones are a waste.
(Note: I personally do not believe that nurturing old(er) talent is a waste. I'm merely saying others may think this way.)
I think the important thing is to never let fear govern a major life decision. Enthusiasm for the major decisions we make in our lives is key. The MFA is not a time-sensitive degree -- you can do it at any time in your life. One doesn't "fall behind" -- in any sense whatsoever -- if one does an MFA in, say, 2012 versus 2010 (providing you're reading and writing vigorously in the meantime). It's not like law school in that regard. I'd say re-dedicate yourself to your writing, have your work looked at by other people (whether it be an online workshop, friends who write, professors, or a mentoring service like DH) and then re-apply next year -- or, if the feedback tells you you've further to go, apply in a couple years. The point is that nearly a third of all applicants to MFA programs re-apply, and increasingly they do that because applicants are demanding what they have a right to as terminal-degree students: full funding. It sounds like, from your message, you might be as worried about what you're going to do in the ensuing year (between now and the next application cycle) as much as anything else? Or maybe I'm reading subtext. In any case, if you got into a top 30 program without funding another go at this -- with perhaps some additional guidance from outside -- might well put you in a top 50 program with funding. And as someone with a debt-to-income ratio of 14-to-1 (no, I'm not kidding; law school doesn't offer grants in-program) I can tell you that's not a place you want to be. The only reason I can survive is my alma mater has the most generous law-school [long-term] loan forgiveness program in the country -- most folks aren't in that situation.
Be well, Seth
P.S. {On edit} Jasmine, we cross-posted -- only a coincidence that we were both talking about law school! ;-)
Virginia is the last school I'm waiting on. I often picture myself in Charlottesville. Happy thoughts. But I also picture my life post-MFA and whether it's Iowa, Virginia, or Podunk A&M, it's always the same: I'm writing in my backyard writing studio (it's actually a shed, but I call it a "studio") and sending work out to agents, lit mags, and editors. So, in essence, it doesn't matter. I guess the only difference is that in my cover letters, I will have the luxury of writing "I have an MFA from Virginia," which ultimately doesn't matter if the subject matter of my novel is about a White guy from Kansas who ruminates about mowing his lawn. Agents and editors are probably looking for more exotic subject matter, I suspect. Perhaps an Iraqi guy who ruminates about mowing his lawn? Now, that's more like it.
@Sud - I hope I'm wrong, too. On the plus side, there is the token factor; that is, let's just admit one applicant over the age of 40 just to show we're not discriminating based on age. Crazy, I know.
I once worked for a company that hired an outside consultant to help "reorganize." They came up with some numbers. The company took those numbers and ended up laying off thousands, most of whom were in their 50s and 60s. They got nice severance packages though. Nearly all workers in their 20s and 30s were retained. Hmmmmm...
My GRE score was in the low-mid 500s in verbal and my essay was ABYSMALLY low and I got into every program (w/ funding) I applied to including Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, and Houston...
And it's good, too, since I REALLY thought it mattered and had been stressing out about it (I have never done well on standardized tests). Turns out, I don't think it really matters.
Hey all, can anyone provide a list of schools that don't require GRE scores? Preferably east of the Mississippi?? I'm going to retake the stupid thing this summer, but I'm not banking on too much of an improvement. Hearing about "weeding" makes me want to cry...
I have concluded that GRE scores have little to no importance in the admissions process. I got into several schools without even meeting their minimum. My GRE scores were absolutely ridiculous. I hardly studied for them, and I'm glad I didn't waste my time with that.
Accepted this morning into Georgia College and State University, CNF! Full funding--and a quite excellent, personable, yada-yada, e-mail from the director. Awesome, can't believe it!
@GCSU people, there could be more acceptances going out, as I believe the 1st notice on here was at least a couple weeks ago, and I didn't come off the waitlist.
It's a Sunday a.m., but I guess that doesn't mean y'all get a break from checking and re-checking your inboxes ever 30 minutes. Now, I have a decision to make between EWU and GCSU, I know, woe is me.
For any of you waiting on either of these schools, I'll try my best to make a decision soon, to free up a spot, but it'll be hard. They both sound like great programs, and were my two top choices.
Good Sunday luck to you all...sending good vibes and "stuff."
Thanks for the thoughts. Indeed Seth, I am nervous about the upcoming year. I will have graduated with two undergraduate degrees that offer no real job prospects.
But I am still seriously afraid that this chance was once-in-a-lifetime and considering that my GRE scores were so low and my GPA contains an F and a D and multiple Cs, that I won't be able to get in elsewhere.
I contacted the department today to inquire about funding oppurtunities.
EEEEG, what a hard decision. I feel that I will probably go, because I just want it THAT badly.
Again, thanks so much for the thoughts. They have given me a lot to think about.
MFA programs don't care about either GPA or GRE -- the only question is whether a school's Graduate College has minimum standards. Most don't or have a low standard, and at some places the MFA can actually go to bat for an applicant they want and get a waiver of those minimums. Certainly one can re-take the GRE and raise one's score to ensure it's above any low minimum programs set. GPA is a tougher situation, but again many schools don't have a GPA minimum for their MFA program -- and if they do, it'll say so on their website so you can know before you send in an application fee. Best of luck,
New topic. I've been thinking about waitlists recently because I'm on several of them. Many posters and even schools talk about "rank" and "position" and whether someone is "high" or "low" on the waitlist. I'm beginning to think the schools who are informing applicants are not exactly on the up-n-up. Let's examine two extreme cases:
One school makes offers based on the writing sample alone. They do not seek out diversity. If they don't rank waitlist candidates at the outset, they'll eventually have to do so for the top 2-3 waitlist spots. Whether this practice is right or wrong is beyond the scope of my post. But there it is.
Another school - no names - has made offers with diversity in mind: equal numbers of male vs. female, a good "balance" of aesthetics among the offered candidates, politically correct numbers of different races/ethnicities/religions/etc. To get the perfect "balance" is not an easy task. How do they pick which applicant gets the next offer? Well, I suspect it depends on who declines their offer. If a female declines, they're going to make an offer to a female. If a Chinese-American declines, they may make an offer to the next Asian-American. If a Muslim declines, they're going to make an offer to the next Buddhist. If an experimental White guy declines, they'll pick an experimental White guy off the waitlist.
Needless to say, they won't offer to anyone unless their writing samples were up to snuff. I mean, they have standards. But, in order to achieve "balance," it doesn't make sense to "rank" waitlist candidates.
This is just my guess. But I could be wrong. Maybe it's a lot simpler than I think it is.
So, if a school tells you you're "high" on their waitlist, they wouldn't exactly be lying. It all depends on the profile of the person who declines their offer; that is, you're "high" if the declining candidate matches your profile.
Woon, That theory is something to contemplate. There are many, many schools. I am not in a position to say that no school takes this approach. I do know, though, that with one school whose offer I declined, I got a PM from the person who got my spot some hours later - a person who doesn't share my gender, race or aesthetic, really. But that was one school, so, really, who knows. Also, sometimes it comes down to how badly one prof or a bloc of professors want certain writers. I've heard from an MFA prof that it can get really intense when it comes to whittling down candidates. It gets practically legislative - deals are made and compromises are reached a la "Fine, ABC is excellent, and I'll concede to his/her acceptance just as long as XYZ is first in line on the waitlist." Matters of demographics don't really seem to come into play. Or, one could argue, it comes into play as a by product of the professors' own demographic makeup and the aesthetics (backgrounds?) they're drawn to. But, again, there are many MFA programmes - so who knows? (which is basically what you're saying, anyway.)
Oh, and to Michael who posted oh so long ago: I was in a similar situation as you. If you'd like to hear how I slogged through this rather arduous thought process to come to my decision, hit me up: mangercratie(at)gmail(dot)com.
I've thought a lot about the diversity/United Colors of Benetton issue as it relates to admissions.
I'll say this first in the spirit of transparency: I'm a white male. Superficially, I am part of the authorial hegemony: white males writing about the challenges of being white and male. My guess is that programs, like agents and publishing houses, look for new voices, a euphemism for color, anything-besides-Christian creed, class, etc. Given the political climate, where policies like affirmative action are being challenged and criticized by some of the people they were designed to protect, programs won't be candid about diversity policies. That said, can you picture a program admitting a class of all males? Of all white males? Of all females? Of all black females? Programs do and must take these issues into consideration. Just don't expect candidness on their part.
This is frustrating for a white male, like me, who's gay. There isn't a box to check on any of the applications I filled out to communicate this. The only program at all curious about the applicant's unique struggles (their word) was Michigan. And you know what? I thought writing about being gay would be exploitative. Currying favor from admission committees over something I couldn't control made me uncomfortable. (I ended up writing about it, and I didn't get in, so take that as you will.)
But despite the frustrations and the unfairness, I think an applicant would be better positioned psychologically, emotionally, if he or she accepts the imperfections of the process. In a field as competitive (and subjective) as writing, sometimes you're going to be passed over for the Brazilian-Finnish transgender who's autistic and writes stories only about gauchos. It happens. And because these programs conduct admissions behind curtains, and the curtains are thick, heavy velvet you can't see through, we'll never be totally certain why X got in over Y.
But don't tell me it doesn't happen! We all know it happens. Let's be honest you guys.
It's just a theory. I was merely laying out what I thought MAY be going on. I was not making any judgments -- good or bad -- whatsoever about this process, just trying to understand it from my limited view. I don't know why anyone would get upset with me for expressing a judgmentless thought. I was just saying:
I'm with you. Excellent comment on the realities of this process. I've often felt it's unfair that I'm probably perceived as a cute little white suburban midwestern mom. And who wants one of THOSE in their cohort?
Yes, I'm a mom, but I'm so much more. I'm also gay (I just didn't come out till my 30s), I've been brutally near-homeless poor, and I've led an extremely non-traditional life.
I couldn't ever be a "token" anything -- I'm not a "typical" gay woman, not a typical mom, not a typical midwesterner, not a typical poor person, not even a typical or stereotypical writer.
I tried to hint at some of this in my SOP, and one reason I submitted a story with a male first-person narrator was to show I won't just be writing about lesbians and/or white, suburban moms.
Anyway. I did wish committees would see who I "really" am.
The "prestige" conversation perhaps ties in to one aspect of my current dilemma, on which I'd love any and all input. Namely: although I'm keeping a few other offers on the table, I've pretty much narrowed down my choices to UMass Amherst vs. Michigan. Of course, there are many factors to consider here, but among those factors, the one I'm particularly stymied by is teaching vs. time.
Michigan's first year is fully funded, no teaching required. Year two I'd teach one class each semester.
UMass has offered me a TA position, in which I'd teach 2 classes the first semester and 1 the second semester.
UMass' program is three years long, which I find appealing--but perhaps the extra length is negated by the teaching responsibility? That is, perhaps Michigan's free first year--and all the potential writing time therein--is simply unbeatable?
Another consideration is whether or not three years of teaching at UMass would be a big leg up in getting a teaching job post-grad (vs only one year of experience teaching at Michigan).
Can you please comment on the San Francisco schools: USF, SFSU, CCA?
Is funding the biggest thing affecting their rankings? The only information I am finding on the programs is through professors I know (at USF and CCA) and the schools' websites. I would really appreciate a viewpoint a little less biased.
I was a little sorry about Pacific. It looked like a great program. I guess I would feel better if I had one acceptance under my belt. Alas, I have 8 schools outstanding. I have come to the conclusion, albeit early, that it is quite alright to go through the application process 2 or 3 times. I was hoping that would not be the case for me. But, frankly, choosing an MFA school is a bit like a marriage for 2 years. We need to have chemistry and if by rejecting me, the schools are saying: "No, darling, this time it is YOU and not ME" then I would rather suffer the brutal honesty and go someplace I can grow as a writer. (I stopped short of saying "go to a school that appreciates me"). Best of luck to you Sud - I hope this week brings more good news your way!
I've heard such wonderful things about UMASS Amherst. Not to state a truism, but many times, teaching and engaging with student works can inspire ideas for your own writing. Amherst is also just a wonderful town!
Michigan is obviously a great program but my friends who are there have acknowledged certain shortcomings like the LONG winters, in addition to others, and sometimes (this might be their own issue) a reluctance to write despite the time.
just reiterating J. Haley's request for more info on the SF schools, as I, too, am interested.
"Can you please comment on the San Francisco schools: USF, SFSU, CCA?
Is funding the biggest thing affecting their rankings? The only information I am finding on the programs is through professors I know (at USF and CCA) and the schools' websites. I would really appreciate a viewpoint a little less biased.
A few other writers and myself have started up the MFA Rejects Workshop. (Okay, the name is negotiable. I wanted to own the word reject and steal its power, but whatever.) It's a group of people who applied for MFA programs this year and didn't make it. Well, actually we're open to people who did make it, too, and want to help. Our mission is to kick ass at writing to be ready for next year, with a goal of having 100% of our members accepted, should they chose to reapply.
Really, the point is that we want to continue to support each other in writing outside the MFA season. We're all paying free dollars for the privilege, and the group is open to writers of all genres who give a damn.
If this sounds like something you're interested in, send me your email address, and I'll send you an invitation to join the Ning group. The email link in my profile is active, so you can find my address there. Hope to hear from some of you soon.
@klairkwilty - what's wrong with double-wide trailers? LOL! Seriously, I would think the good folks at Dey House got housing all figured out for incoming students and can guide you in the right direction. I know some MFA programs specifically wrote little housing booklets (pamphlets?) and sent them to their incoming students. (I guess they want their MFA students to live together or something)
@klairkwilty - not a bad idea. They should just build annexes and wings to house writers. Of course, they'd have to add additional plumbing for the toilets and showers. Seriously, get a house or apt in Coralville and take the short bus ride to Iowa City.
A little late here, since I went to a movie, but I also have an F. And a C-. And a withdrawal. And I've gotten into one Scottish program and one American program. I'd listen to Seth about GPA and GRE being less important factors to admissions committees. Do not fret.
@klairkeilty - okay, now you're just being whiny. First, you complain about Iowa City's double-wide trailers and now Coralville is icky. LOL! There's really no place else except for West Branch, Cedar Rapids, or that commune behind Wal-Mart. (j/k re. Wal-Mart)
The whole funding situation at Columbia is a major MFA buzz kill. Would've applied there myself if it was financially more feasible. Something I would like to bring up that I haven't seen mentioned as part of the debate yet is that the program is housed within the School of the Arts and not Columbia's English Dept. What kind of effects does this have on a program?
Your post caught my eye because I am desperately praying to every deity I can think of to get off the TA/funding waitlist at Idaho. From my own selfish perspective, it breaks my heart to think I might not get to go to my first choice because someone who accepted Idaho's offer did so even though they thought another program might be better for them or didn't really think they'd be happiest at Idaho. HOWEVER (before anyone flames me), if you are crazy about Idaho, then you should accept their generous offer! Of course, I'm one of those that doesn't really care about prestige, so you can take it with a grain of salt if prestige is important to you. If I don't get to go to Idaho, I'd love to think that everyone who is attending is just as excited and pumped about it as I would have been. I hope you make the choice that gives you the most excitement and happiness just thinking about it- whether that's Idaho, Eastern, or Ohio is for you to decide. Good luck, and maybe I'll see you in Moscow in the fall.
I'm totally with Woon on waitlists. My guess would be that committees want a certain "mix" - especially at the very small programs. Although like Woon, I don't have any "concrete" data to back that up.
@ kaybay - a few schools that I researched that do not require GRE scores include:
Iowa Michigan Irvine Madison Arizona Syracuse Arizona State
There are heaps of others, but those made my short list. I'm not the best standardized test-taker and didn't like the way some programs emphasized the GRE. The fact that several programs require certain scores (and advertise so on their website) kept me from applying. I know it's sometimes the fault of the grad program and not the CW department, but I still struck 2-3 great schools off my list simply because they emphasized the GRE. I just didn't want to be in an environment where one test played such a big role - to me that didn't bode well for the future.
For the sake of fairness, I'll confess that my Verbal score was a 560, my math a 480, and I scored a 6.0 on the analytical writing.
The school I got into never even saw my scores. I really, really believe that they don't ultimately matter.
I used to teach high school, and I specifically chose not to apply to schools that required TAs to teach more than one class each semester. I figured that I'd rather re-apply than do a 2/2 load, for the simple reason that teaching can be really exhausting. I don't think a 2/1 load is inherently awful or anything like that, but I would encourage you to think about how much time you're really going to have to write during a double-course semester. If the classes are each 3 credits, then you're looking at at least 6-8 hours in class time, plus office hours, plus correcting student work. If each class has 20 students and they're each turning in one piece of writing each week (conservatively) you're looking at 40 new essays or stories each week. Let's say it takes you 30 minutes to look at each essay - that's 20 hours a week right there. (Wow, this has turned into some GRE-esque word problem, sorry!)
That being said, sometimes time itself is the enemy. Some people work better with more structure, and get more done if they have a "limited" time to write everyday. Personally, I'd rather create that structure myself by taking extra classes or volunteering etc.
I know you're also wondering about the benefits/drawbacks of a 2 or 3 year program. I guess I look at the differences in this way - if you've "budgeted" 3 years for a program, and you end up in a 2-year MFA, then you've got an "extra" year to apply for fellowships or residencies or the like, while still "finishing overall" in 3 years. I decided early on that I'd rather take a shot at 20 different fellowships or residencies across the country (many of which provide further teaching opportunities) my "third" year.
I don't want to sway you one way or another, but I thought about these issues a lot before applying. It's a really tough call - both programs are great! Not the worst position to be in. :-)
I drove through Amherst last night. It was real nice until I spotted the flashing blue lights disrupting the darkness behind me. The trees lining the road felt very Sleepy Hollow and convinced me the officer had stopped me to secure himself a head! The flashing blue lights confirmed my suspicions that the Headless Horseman's more modern ride is a UFO.
$200 for doing 40 in a 20, according to this coppah. He wouldn't even let me explain that I am a struggling writer with $100,000 in undergrad loans and no hope for an MFA future...and that I was going down a MOUNTAIN of some sort at the time.
When I finally got back home for some sleepy time, I had a dream where Andie Macdowell and Sean Patrick Flanery abducted the magistrate and brought him/her to my house so I wouldn't have to travel the 2 hours to court. They represented me and got my fine reduced to time served...because in my mind speeding tickets are equivalent to terrible criminal offenses that require prison time...like kidnapping.
I never want to see Amherst again. Ever. Or any other little town in Western MA for that matter.
Oh. Wow. Ouch...sorry to anyone else that reads my last post...I really needed to vent in the most outrageous way possible to make myself feel better. :( Badddd night.
RE: the diversity issue that was briefly touched upon earlier
I'll start by saying I've been reading and holding off on posting--mostly because my goal is to apply for MFA programs next cycle. However, as a fiction writer of color, I think about the diversity issue a LOT and so decided to add my 2 cents.
I agree that diversity can and should go beyond the more "obvious" traits like race/ethnicity/nationality. No question of that. But I must say I find it discouraging when I visit a program's website and there seem to be very few or no faculty members and/or students of color. It usually makes me cross that program off my list. And it's happened quite a few times. Visit the faculty pages for UMASS or Stony Brook Southhampton to see what I mean. I feel the same when I read many lit mags, coming across short stories with such similar content: white characters in the suburbs, boredom, alienation, magical realism turning suburban boredom/alienation on its head...etc. We all know these stories. I'm not saying they're not worth reading, it just gets tiresome. Which I realize is unfair to those persons telling those stories, but I'm just being honest. And I should add, no matter the content, if it hooks me in it hooks me in (to use workshop vernacular).
So, I don't think it's such a bad thing when programs take steps to include the more "obviously" diverse applicants, because clearly the writing world [I guess I mean fiction] is not exactly overrun with ethnic diversity anyway. It may seem that way, but when you look across programs and writing communities--not just the well-known success stories--ethnic writers are still very much underrepresented. And I think the popularity of writers like Junot Diaz, Edwidge Danticat, and ZZ Packer means that people find these stories and POVs interesting and worth reading (aside from, you know, those authors being really talented). What we should avoid is acknowledging diversity for the wrong reasons, for sheer sake of being able to claim diversity...aka tokenism. That's unfair to everyone.
That said, it's great if programs offer everyone an equal opportunity to explain how they may contribute to the diversity of a program beyond race, i.e. class or sexual orientation.
I could talk about this crap all day. Thanks for providing a forum where I could air out my feelings on this. And thanks to everyone for some invaluable info on this process. Good luck to you all!!!!
um, I think what Fausto was getting at is that it is utterly absurd to think they substitute one type of "Asian" for another or the same with "Muslims" and "Buddhists" (which, btw, what??) to keep things different and level. Please, if more "diverse" people are getting accepted it's because everyone is sick of one type of literary trajectory that has been dominating the field.
Plenty of white males and/or females will still get in, but, basically, now the non-dominant group is no longer UNDER-represented.
@woofenstein - thanks for posting! And everybody else who's been weighing in on the diversity/selection issue - definitely interesting reading.
I just wanted to add... I've been feeling kinda guilty. I'm part Aleut (among other things), and I marked that on my forms... and the only school I got into is the University of Alaska. Ah! What if my ethnic background was the reason I got in? I don't really think that's true though... I mean, I think UAF was just the place where I had the best shot, in terms of my writing sample and my writing goals and the professors. But still. @M.Swann, I totally feel what you were saying, about feeling like you're "exploiting" your personal diversity... I know diversity is super-important, but still, I get to feeling super guilty! Ha, anybody else feel this way?
Okay, everyone - here's wishing you all lots and lots of luck for Monday! :)
Yes, I have many questions!! What is your course load per semester, firstly, and how much time do you have generally each week to just write? How accessible are faculty members, and how committed do they seem to be to each student's work? I've heard tales of rampant favoritism - how true have you found this to be? And what's your opinion of your fellow student's work? My most important criteria is quality of faculty and cohort - my undergrad experience was mostly mediocre, and I think made me a pretty disengaged student. I'm looking for peers & teachers that care about their work, and are vastly talented, who will kick me in the arse and make me work harder than I've ever worked before. So whaddya think?
I want to say again, to those taking the GRE into account when applying, that I wouldn't worry too much about it. I applied to some schools that require the GRE, and have minimum score requirements, and was accepted. My GRE scores were beyond pitiful, and I didn't even meet the 600 verbal requirement. I wouldn't cross a school off your list for any reason related to GREs. I think they definitely make exceptions if they like your sample.
What is your course load per semester, firstly, and how much time do you have generally each week to just write?
Course load is usually 15 credits per semester. A three-hour workshop takes up six, the rest are usually seminars and lectures (we also have two electives.) Here are this semester's courses:
How much writing you get done is up to you, there's a lot of pressure, so you are forced to do a lot. I have four workshop (10 page+) submissions this semester, short stories and essays due in other classes.
How accessible are faculty members, and how committed do they seem to be to each student's work?
Seminar and lecture teachers are less accessible than workshop leaders, who are required to talk to you one-on-one. It's up to you and your personality really.
I've heard tales of rampant favoritism - how true have you found this to be?
Luc Sante's complaints are bitter and out of date. There wasn't any overt favoritism, although there is competition for fellowships and residencies and recommendations. Although I haven't seen it first hand.
And what's your opinion of your fellow student's work?
Cohort is far above my Ivy undergrad. Some amazing writers, a couple of mediocre ones. Everyone cares, which is a nice change.
My most important criteria is quality of faculty and cohort - my undergrad experience was mostly mediocre, and I think made me a pretty disengaged student. I'm looking for peers & teachers that care about their work, and are vastly talented, who will kick me in the arse and make me work harder than I've ever worked before. So whaddya think?
If you are comfortable asserting yourself and want the courseload and larger class, I would definitely go for it. If you're shy and would be more comfortable in a smaller group in a more intimate setting then I'd go somewhere else. I really am getting a lot out of it so far and my writing has really improved.
I just returned from PSU's grad recruitment weekend for the English department, and I did not want to leave! Met and talked with George Saunders (who was visiting for the week), clicked immediately with the other accepted MFAers (6 out of 8 attended, I was the only poetry there though), attended a hilarious current MFA reading, and met the faculty for the program. I want to graduate nooow.
Anyone else attend a great (or terrible) recruitment weekend? I would love to hear other experiences.
No, I definitely don't think it's just funding. First, there's the flip-side of the funding question -- which is not (to emphasize) the same issue -- and that's cost. Two of those three programs are incredibly expensive, and all are located in among the highest-cost locales in the country. Even if partial or full funding were available to some students, this would be a major issue. Second is the question of reputation: SFSU was ranked #46 in 1996, which would be the equivalent of a ranking on the wrong side of 100th today. University of San Francisco was tied for last nationally -- which today would be... er... last, I guess. CCA was unranked (not sure whether it existed or not at the time). This speaks to the impression those in the system have of these programs. That impression still exists today: among the small group of TSE voters who did not use TSE when applying -- i.e., who were not exposed to the present conventional wisdom about funding, which comes not just from TSE but from any/every online MFA-applicant community -- CCA, SFSU, and USF do better than they do in the overall polling but are still just outside the top 50 (and given that those who don't use online communities prior to applying are naturally far less familiar with the range of programs out there, a non-top-50 finish amongst such applicants is worse than it seems -- i.e., it's, say, 55th out of the 70 or 80 programs maximum this sub-set of applicants are aware of). These are also incredibly large programs -- which is all right when the cohort quality is very high (Iowa, Arizona, George Mason, etcetera) because that means a vibrant community that inspires students even if professors are more difficult to access, but when cohort quality is not as high it's easy to get lost in the shuffle. And that's exactly the complaint I've heard from students at, for instance, SFSU. Selectivity, which is related to cohort quality, is another issue -- it's not clear the cohorts at these programs are as strong as elsewhere. Format may be an issue for CCA: students want a studio program, increasingly, but I think there's still some hesitation about attending a "true" art school for a creative writing degree (like SAIC, CCA, CalArts, and Otis). These are possibly less popular for many reasons: less prestige; less well-known universities; no grades (in some instances) to report to doctoral programs if you want to apply, &c &c. I'd also say that, for programs located in major urban centers, these schools do not have the faculty rosters of other large, largely-unfunded programs (e.g. those in NYC): compare the faculties with NYU, Columbia, and Sarah Lawrence, for instance, and these schools we're discussing now just can't compare. I also think we could look at historical placement records and see that these schools are not putting lots of grads in fellowships -- when controlled for size, even SFSU drops out of the top 50 nationally (and since the Placement Rankings go back to 1998, dozens of started-up-since-1998 programs aren't even really eligible -- because they haven't graduated hardly anyone -- so that's a non-top-50 finish out of an estimated 100 programs that realistically had a shot of being in that ranking). What those programs have going for them, IMHO, is their location and the fact that they may be slightly more open to experimental work. Otherwise, and I mean this kindly -- as an attempt to offer good advice to people in a tough spot, not to put anyone down whatsoever -- I think these are all "apply-again" programs (programs one should not attend without an offer of full funding).
P.S. I've been a proponent of the "apply-again" theory for years now -- it has nothing to do with the fact that I work with applicants who haven't been accepted anywhere, or who've turned down unfunded offers. Those who are trying to decide whether or when to apply again should consider this service (see post at link). Many applicants who are likely to leap at an offer now -- putting themselves tens of thousands of dollars into needless debt (which they will struggle to pay back, because the MFA can't get anyone a job) -- could, if they just expended a little additional time (and yes, for some, a very small financial investment is also helpful) increase their chances of improving their ability to get into a funded program.
One of the things that made me happiest this whole application season was having worked with someone who, in part thanks to a small financial investment in an ALC consultation, ended up at a program that will be giving this person $85,000+ in a non-teaching, no-strings-attached fellowship. I really believe in this with my whole heart: $80 now, $90 now, $250 now, can translate into literally tens of thousands of dollars a few months from now. So look, whether anyone uses DH or not -- or any of the online workshops or live workshops or whatever -- please seriously consider turning down any unfunded offer. If you keep at this thing you will end up having your education paid for by someone else, I really believe this!
Thank you, Seth. You sure gave me a lot to think about... Cliche necessary: I'm now between a rock and a hard place.
For clarification, you said... "I think these are all 'apply-again' programs (programs one should not attend without an offer of full funding)."
Therefore, if funding is offered, as some people have stated (in the form of Provost Scholarships and the like), would you recommend attending? Or, taking into consideration the other downfalls you described, are they programs to which you wouldn't recommend applying in the first place?
2,525 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 1201 – 1400 of 2525 Newer› Newest»Courtney, that's good news about them being out all week. I think I'm going to go run ten miles and see if I can exhaust myself calm. Thanks for the info.
C
Thanks Courtney! And high-five to you for getting in, of course!!
@Courtney - I'm also waitlisted at Purdue, in addition to Florida and Notre Dame. What Porter told you about the ten is correct. I think the shortlist is ten and from that ten, they offered spots to four of their top candidates. That means we are anywhere from #1-#6 on the waitlist. He said I was the best-looking of the bunch, among the males. I believe it.
@Henry.wag
I have a friend at Vermont College in poetry and a couple friends who graduated from SLC in fiction. Feel free to email me: sublissimes (@) yahoo.
ASU peeps! Okay, I love that we have a real back and forth going on for all of the ASU "not yet rejected" folks. Here's the latest that I know: ASU was on spring break this past week, and Karla most likely wasn't even in the office the past few days. Also, for poetry (sorry, I don't know the fiction stats)all the offers they made were supposedly accepted. I was told I was most likely on a wait list, but that because all the poetry spots were accepted, the odds were slim-to-none that I'd get in. Now, there may be a little more hope for you fiction folks because I have no idea if all fiction people accepted their offers.
Anyway, I was also told it was in my best interest to take any other offers that come along. So far, my only offer is with a program with no funding for me the first year, and unless I strike it rich really soon, I can't afford $30,000+ for my first year.
So, ASU peeps -- let's keep each other up to date on here. Perhaps some of us will find ourselves at ASU -- best of luck to all of us.
Woon--
Wow, really? Okay, that changes the odds up a bit. I'm at fixittuesday at yahoo.com if you want to chat options.
PS..Why isn't Purdue WAAAY up there in the rankings? It seems to me that they have everything a top program should have, and yet they are sitting deep into the overall list.
Seth--are you out there? Do you have any wisdom on this?
-Fiction Courtney
Has anybody heard anything from University of Illinois-Urbana? Rejections? Acceptances or Waitlisters? What about V.belt? Acceptances or Rejections?
Also, does anybody here have any commentary on Columbia College in Chicago? I'm really excited to go, but the tuition is a wee bit steep.
woon - are you in LA? and did you go to stanford?
@Franzine - I'm not in Los Angeles. I did not go to Stanford.
It's funny how everyone thinks they know Woon, one way or another!
He/she is an enigma and a funny bugger as well!
I'm thinking Woon's a he... but I would love it if he were a she.
I'm with Courtney---I have a vague memory of some Illinois acceptances like in February, but other than that it seems it's been silence from Urbana. Anyone have any insight?
Two letters in the mail just now.
Waitlisted at Notre Dame, for the second year in a row.
Rejected at Pitt, despite having already been accepted three weeks ago. As I type this, my roommates are downstairs giggling at my acceptance and rejection letters lying side-by-side on the kitchen table.
Congrats to all the recent acceptances, you guys are doing great!
I'm male. I'm nobody.
I'll probably see all of you at some AWP in the future. Maybe you can be my fan and buy my book?
Since it is getting close to that time, I was curious to see where people are thinking they will sign on to, and then maybe your list of schools that you are going to let down, which then would open up more spots and maybe make any of those still waiting feel better, as positions will be opening up left and right.
We could, if we knew your real name!
If you're on a waitlist at one of koru's EIGHT whopping acceptances, you'll get a gift soon. She's a poet so it'll take time for her to whittle down from eight to seven to six...
But expect some gifts from her. She has plenty to give away.
Also, Dolores Humbert will turn down 4 or 5 fiction spots. This girl is amazing.
That is my real name...I was too lazy to make a profile, so I just used my gmail account.
Ben, I was talking to Woon! haha.
Oh, gotcha...I was going to say. I figured it was sarcasm, but then again, how do you read sarcasm on an online forum?
So what says you?
Anyone finished weighing their options and know where they want to be come Fall semester?
I would, but the faculty from some (or all) of my potential schools may be reading. I have some favorites and not-so-favorites. And they know who I am. Yikes!
@Woon
Well to be fair, wont they be knowing your decision here soon enough?
There are 15 people on the Hunter waiting list for poetry.
Bueler? Bueler?
@Ben, I could be turning down unfunded places. Not that they're worth much. :(
I'm praying for a V-Tech miracle!
MFAguy -
I emailed V-Tech last week, and they were very prompt and cordial in responding. Unfortunately the news was not good for me.
Good luck to you!
@ J.Haley.
I'm waitlisted at the top. ugh.
@ threes
wait...what?
Got a very, very nice acceptance letter from SAIC via snail mail today. Almost as nice as the phone call. A sweet fellowship and a pretty good scholarship.
Since I'm going to have to decline, one of you SAIC acceptees are going to be pretty happy when you get this package. Good luck!
To the people admitted to Columbia.
What concentration are you?
Subscribing...
Received rejections number 9 and 10 today via snail mail: Indiana (expected) and Arizona (less expected). That makes 10 rejects with three schools left: Illinois, Minnesota, and Ole Miss. Great job to everyone who has been accepted and won't have to put up with this next year. Extra congrats to those with multiple acceptances.
congrats everyone!
@sarah b.
i went to iowa state for undergrad and it´s a great school. ames is indeed a cool little town. had you received a funded offer at unh?
i´m in at vcfu, unh and sfsu, so far none with funding.
Congratulations to everyone whose gotten in or has been waitlisted.
And am dying - waiting on Columbia. C'mon Columbia!
@ Benjamin
I'm probably going to end up at UF, although I'm waiting to hear from UVA to make a final decision. I will, or already have, let go of spots at the following schools:
Hunter, Sarah Lawrence, UNCG, Montana, and IWW (that's a waitlist spot).
Congrats to all recent acceptances!
Has anyone on here been accepted to San Francisco State's M.A. program (not the MFA)? I applied only for that one and haven't heard anything yet and am wondering if they notify for both at the same time.
@Emma
What made you pick UF?
@ Benjamin
I am a huge admirer of both Padgett Powell and David Leavitt. I've had the chance to talk to David on the phone, and he's a really fantastic, funny guy that I would love to study with. Also, it's a three year program, and the last year is devoted entirely to working on the thesis. The funding is excellent: $15,000 per year, with the option to do summer teaching as well. I want the teaching experience, but they don't overload you. It's also a small program (six in fiction), which I like. And since the funding is equal, there isn't that cut throat thing going on that you might find at some other schools. Overall it just seems like a great fit for me.
benjamin:
I posted this awhile back, but if interested parties missed it.... here it is:
Turned down poetry offers at:
University of Idaho (TA waitlist)
University of Alaska-Fairbanks (TA waitlist)
and I'm still deciding between the University of Washington and Colorado State, so there will be another position opening at one of these places. I'm having a hard time deciding, and may fork the money over to visit each school before decision time. Good luck to everyone who's still waiting to hear, and those trying to make such big decisions
@ Mary Kathleen
Thanks! I'm glad to hear you liked Iowa State and Ames. My offer at UNH didn't include a TA, but I hope one of your schools is able to come through with funding. Best of luck!
I got my official acceptance letter from Texas State today... It's nice to have it on paper to cancel out all those stupid rejection letters and to confirm that I was not called by mistake...
In completely unrelated news, I saw a film today at the Cleveland International Film Festival called Van Diemen's Land about Alexander Pearce... Too bad I didn't know my Australian history or I might have known what was coming *AUSTRALIAN HISTORY SPOILER ALTERT* Tada he was an infamous Cannibal. And they ate the good looking one first. Also the entire thing was subtitled even though it was 90% in English because they assumed the strong old accents were too hard for us Americans to understand.
I wrote it over on the driftless site, but forgot to mention it over here....acceptance into NEOMFA for poetry via snail mail on 3/16...but turning down the acceptance, in case any other poets are wait listed or awaiting news.
Ashley Brooke,
Did they say anything about funding yet? I think they said they'd notify next week about that, but just checking...
Finally got my Texas State acceptance letter in the mail today. Still waiting on hearing about funding. Will keep everyone posted.
HUGE congrats to Trilbe and Hilary for Columbia Univ acceptances!! So happy for you ladies - well done!
High fives to all the other acceptees!
Benjamin,
Are you turning down a funded spot, or non-funded? I've been accepted to the NEOMFA (in fiction) but I'm waitlisted for a teaching assistantship. So if you turned one of THOSE down, I'd be super happy :)
Which school was going to be your gateway? I got in to Kent and Akron, I'm on a funding waitlist at Kent and I don't know about Akron's teaching assistantship situation yet.
@Courtney & mj (& others)
For those who were wondering about an Illinois update, I received a wait-list from them in snail mail back in late February (I think).
Not sure if that means that they've notified everyone or what.
@old poet
Thanks for the info! If I remember, their application was dur before most others, but I have yet to hear back from them.
Kitty In A Cathouse,
Nope! The letter is just from the Graduate School giving official acceptance. I think that the adcoms are meeting on Monday to make funding decisions so I assume that we will learn our status sometime next week. Hopefully they all go to those of us on the blog!
@ Wordshift
Did you ever get that acceptance email from UCR? I had the same exact situation as you did (got the invitation, called and was told I should be getting an email acceptance) but I still haven't seen such an email. I'm pretty sure we were given a verbal acceptance, but it's really difficult for me to not be paranoid.
@ poetess
haha, I know, right? Accepted a few weeks ago, then received a rejection letter today. Thinking I'm going to ignore it and go with the first one ...
@threes - that IS weird.
@ Sarah B.
How do you know that you did not receive funding from UNH? I was told that I was still in the running for aid about a week ago, but when I got the official acceptance e-mail, no mention...I know the funding situation is bleak, so I'm worried.
Congrats to all acceptances!! I can't keep track. What can I say? I'm no Trilbe...
Still waiting on Columbia...How big is the program? So big that they will still be notifying throughout this coming week? I wonder how long it will take for my rejection letter to get to me...
Madeline Stevens said...
@Julie
I'm fiction. Rebecca Curtis is the one who called me (and left a voicemail). I'll be calling her back Monday as she asked me to, but I was just wondering if they even had the funding info yet. I know it does tend to improve in your second year if you hustle, so even if they don't give me much, I'll probably go. It's not everyday that one gets into an Ivy League school, afterall.
Feel free to hit me up as well: missedpoints@gmail.com
@ Georgie,
My email was from one of the poetry professors (are you in poetry or fiction or CNF?) and it stated very specifically in the email that I was not going to be offered funding this year. The email implied that no first years would be offered TAs, but it was definitely an implication as opposed to a clear statement.
Who was your email from? It could be they haven't made final decisions about funding in some genres.
accepted at american in fiction via phone!
@ Sarah B.
I'm in for fiction. The e-mail is from the Dean of the Graduate School. It encourages me to call Thomas Payne, who would be my advisor. Any mention of funding is conspicuously absent.
Congratulations @Quincy, and all you other people hearing good news! :)
I just wanted to share - I read here that someone recently received their Indiana U. rejection letter, and so I thought I'd go online and see if I might get my official reject there. (I'm in Washington State and so I imagine the mail'll take it's time!) I typed in my name, birthday, and email to try to log on... and got a message saying "no such entry exists in our database." Haha, ouch! I'm pretty sure I done been deleted :P
@ Georgie,
I have received two emails; one from David Rivard, who teaches poetry, and one from the Dean. The one I received from the Dean also does not say anything about funding. The funding info I got was from the first email, from David.
I'm sure you could call the Dean, or just get in touch with your prospective advisor. Or, you could call the helpful Admin. Assitant and ask her who you should call. It might be that the fiction people are going to receive an email with more information (as the poetry people did) sometime next week - I've noticed that Fiction info seems to be tailing CNF and Poetry info by a few days.
Congrats to acceptances!
BTW, has anyone out there received a rejection notice from University of Florida? Or Portland State University? It's been nearly 2 weeks since folks posted acceptances on here and I haven't received anything. I emailed them a week ago asking when I could hope to know and I've gotten no response. I'll probably move to phoning them on Monday. It seems like the gap between email/phone acceptance notification with them and receiving their rejection letters is going to be even longer than the just about 2 weeks it was (for me anyway) with Michigan. Does anyone have any insights into their process and why the gap? Have they just decided that we're all monitoring each others' acceptances on here and therefore they don't need to notify us of rejections?
Sorry to rant, I'm sure no one else out there is bothered by this..;-)
@Daniel - no, I totally know what you're talking about!
I think one reason schools don't immediately notify all rejections is that they want to hang on to an unofficial deep waitlist, in case they get a whole lot of admitted students turning the university down. It sounds like ASU is doing that right now... although I think ASU has notified most of their rejections already (like me!). I don't know why some schools (like Florida) wait so long for ALL the rejections. Maybe they want to reject everybody at one, so they wait until they're sure they can fill all their positions? I suppose that way it's more courteous. I don't know, though - I don't like the wait!
Ha, Daniel, you reminded me - I've been wondering about U of Oregon. I thought I'd heard about some rejections already, but I wasn't sure if I'd just made that up. Anybody know? I'd appreciate it!
Aaaah! Well, good luck waiting, all of y'all.
The phone rang at home. I picked it up on the first ring. It was my wife. She asked, "Were you sitting by the phone all day? Jeeez!" She thought I was waiting for some (random) MFA director to call me. Honestly, I don't know why I was sitting by the phone.
@Zoulou: I don't know about rejections for Oregon, but I was waitlisted via snail mail (fiction) hope that helps somewhat?
I'm wondering aboutt his whole unofficial waitlist thing too... I have not heard a peep from Brooklyn or New School and its ofically making me go INSANE.
As for columbia-- we can expect a few days of notification right? do i have to give up hope yet?
rock chalk jay....cuuuuuuse.
Okay, supremely long-time lurker. I've been lurking since 2006 I believe. I've lurked from my days living in Japan, then from Michigan and now from the Emerald Shitty of Seattle. Yep, I've been actively perusing this site forever and have put off applying for all this time. I've been terrified of not getting in somewhere, because I've wanted to pursue this degree since I learned of its existence. I know that it's hard to get accepted if you don't apply, but truly I've been teetering for years because writing means so much to me, and sometimes it has been easier not to know if I'm good enough.
Conclusion...I probably suck. Quick rundown: English/ Creative Writing undergrad. LORs from professors that are novelists, and one from an book editor I interned with during college. I've read both editions of Tom's book. I won a First Place CW award in undergrad, worked as the General Editor for the undergraduate student lit mag, have a fairly good GPA, acceptable/ reasonable GREs and included the awarded story in my portfolio, but alas...it seems it was not enough. I know, I know, the fat lady hasn't sung yet, but I'm officially at 10 solid rejections. And that blasted Indiana envelope cut my knuckle so now I'm contemplating hysteria or perhaps a meltdown of epic proportions.
I hate to be a Debbie Downer because I can only imagine how infuriating it is to be waitlisted, but I so wish I would be at least put on someone's list. To be outright rejected repeatedly, it is heartbreaking. I am alright as of right now, but having hope at this point seems foolish or not worth my time. Now what to do with the next year of my life that is the question...
Applied for Fiction.
REJECTED:
Iowa
Montana
Michigan
Wyoming
Syracuse
Colorado State
Purdue
Indiana
Northwestern
Cornell
Jury Still out:
Bowling Green
Minnesota
Penn State
Illinois
Washington
Hollins
I know, I sound like a broken record as everyone at some point seems to feel as if hope is completely lost, but I just needed to put it out there I guess.
Also it doesn't help that every single friend has gotten into grad school this year. They all seemed to have applied on a whim, to one school, some straightforward numbers based admissions game is all that was required. Sometimes I wish I could want desperately to be an accountant or an engineer, some logical pursuit that would lead to a job that might someday pay off student loans.
/rant
anyone been published in any cool lit journals?
just received two "we really enjoyed this blah blah blah, it nearly made it in blah blah blah, maybe if you adjust this blah blah blah and resend" rejections
guess i should stop complaining. big journals don't usually give feedback. blah.
Only a couple of uncool small ones!
@ Coreyann --
I'm also waitlisted at Oregon, and I have to say, my fingers are crossed that we both get in, because I LOVE YOUR BLOG SO MUCH. Just spent the last half hour reading it, open-mouthed in horrified fascination -- too real, man, too real.
- the other Emma
@Emma:
awwww. thank you!!! i love that people on this blog have read my blog! makes me feel like publicly humiliating myself is totally worth it. =)
Here's to Oregon!
@Woon: male or female, I would totally buy your book.
I would really really like to make a decision soon. It's killing me. I hope to have done this in the next three/four days. Uff.
@ Coreyann --
I tried to comment but couldn't figure out how (I am technologically delayed), but I just had to say -- "Social looking glasses." OMFG.
@cecil - i don't know which the cool ones are. Me, I think, any journal accepting me is major cool. :)
@Emma:
hahahaha. i know right?? Where do i GET these things? i should probably just have sent those posts in for my writing sample... at least I would have stood out...
@jenpopa - chin up! It's not you, it's them.
Jenpopa, never lose hope! No one can tell you your writing isn't good enough, not even yourself, until you've tried and tried and tried and can try no more from sheer exhaustion. I need to say this to myself, too, but DON'T GIVE UP! Take heart, you still have six freaking schools to hear back from!
As for me...Damn Irvine! Finally got my thin one-page letter rejection letter today. Wonder why it took them so long?!
Rejection letter via snail mail in poetry from Pacific low-res. FYI. Congrats to all accepted and waitlisted...
Anyone heard of 34th Parallel I had a story published there recently..but I have no clue if anyone really reads it...
So, after not hearing anything from UNH I decided to call them and they said that I'm on a small waiting list for fiction.
Hmm...
Anyone decling an offer?
And what about Florida and Brooklyn? I received a letter in the mail asking for a transcript for Brooklyn, but I have no idea if this is a good sign or not. I hope these schools let me know soon (and Hawaii).
I've spent so much money applying and I really don't want to push this waiting game into April when my decisions are needed for my acceptances...
This is my second year in the MFA app process for fiction (first year did not go so well), and I've just reached the point where I'm pretty sure I know how it's all going to break down. Here's what I've got:
Rejections - bunch of them
Acceptances w/o funding - Montana
Acceptances w/full funding - Idaho, Eastern, Ohio State
I live in Seattle, which is also where most of my family/friends are. As such, I would like to attend a program in the region, which would give me some distnce from home and allow me to focus, but would also allow me to visit home a little more frequently. In terms of prestige and funding, Idaho pretty clearly trumps Eastern. But I'm having a really, really hard time deciding between Idaho and Ohio State, and I was hoping you all could help me.
How important is prestige? I have a close friend who is in his second year at Columbia (fiction), and who has been in my ear a bit about how important prestige is. He tells me how a big writer noticing you can make your career over night, how you get to meet people you'd never get to meet in a smaller program, etc. My personal arguments for Idaho are many. For one the, the funding their offering me is phenomenal. Full tuition waiver, generous stipend, in-state fees waived, plus a couple of good-sized grants. Their offer beats Ohio State's by a mile, plus I think I'd rather live in Moscow. But, Ohio State seems to trump Idaho in terms of prestige - Ohio State seems to pop up around 20-40 on prestige ranking, where Idaho shows up around 40-60.
So what do these rankings even mean? Are they worth thinking about? Would I be an idiot to say no to Ohio State and Montana in order to accept Idaho's offer? I would just really appreciate anything you MFA mavens have to say regarding my options.
Thanks so much. And to all of you still waiting to hear, best of luck. It isn't over 'til it's over.
Michael:
When you're miserable with the entire country between you and your family/friends, are you really going to be able to comfort yourself with how prestigious the school you're attending is? Is that going to be enough to get you through three years? Prestige alone makes a shitty blanket.
Maybe that's a bit harsh. You probably wouldn't be totally miserable anywhere, but my basic point is that there is way, way more to this decision than prestige. And to my ear (eye? we're reading this, after all), your friend from Columbia sounds like he is merely trying to justify to himself his own choices by influencing yours. But maybe I'm just being a dick. It's 6am and I've been awake 3 hours for no reason.
What about other aspects of the programs? It sounds like you're very interested in Idaho's offer, and all that's holding you back is their supposed lack of prestige. If you went to Ohio State without being thoroughly excited about it, would you regret not attending Idaho? I would encourage you to put aside prestige and try to consider all other factors. If you can afford it, visit places to get a feel of the atmosphere and have questions answered face to face. If this isn't possible, try to be in conversations with current students and faculty at each program to clear up your decision-making process.
This process is often about fit and comfort. There is more to that than who is going to ooh and ahh over where you got your MFA. I would encourage you to follow your gut on this rather than the gnat in your ear.
Has anyone heard anything from Ole Miss yet?
Jasmine-
Thank you for your comments. This is exactly the kind of honest feedback I want.
Yes, I absolutely agree with you about the perspective of this friend from Columbia. He is definitely trying to justify his own decision to go $100,000 dollars into debt. And yes, I am factoring in more than just prestige.
I guess part of my question is just, Will going to a more renowned school help you significantly more later - w/regards to teaching postions/publications, etc? Or is an MFA an MFA regardless of where you got it in the eyes of employers/publishers?
Thank you. Looking forward to hearing from more of you.
-Michael
jenpopa - don't lose heart just yet. It isn't over until the very last university writes in. This blog is full of stories of people who gave up and then the next thing they knew they had been accepted. I hope that is how things work out for you as well.
With regards to Bowling Green - if you want to find out quickly and you can stomach it, my suggestion would be to call Bowling Green and speak to the director, Wendell Mayo. He's a really nice man and will let you know where you stand. I recieved an email from the Graduate office to call him about my status and thats what I did.
Best of luck.
For those waiting on Columbia -
When people started getting phone calls I panicked and called Columbia - not once but three times trying on different voices with different accents (helps that I've lived in various countries) and was told repeatedly that the bulk of communication from the department would begin on the 22nd. This is after I said I wanted to know about the fiction applicants. I relaxed somewhat only to read about one person getting a call for fiction.
The only explanation I can come up with, after reading the blog, is that they're notifying people in batches and it seems they're trying to get the poetry people first.
Just realised none of this really helps anyone but I guess I needed to say it. C'mon Columbia!
Michael:
re: prestige and the influence on your future career
Of course I cannot answer that. I tend to believe, however, that writing, and choosing a life in the arts in general, is a crapshoot no matter how many connections we think we might have. There is absolutely nothing at all that guarantees our future success, not even writing something wonderful.
@Micheal -
Like Jasmine just said up there, I can't tell you what's best for YOU. I can tell you, though, that for me I think I'd choose Idaho, hands-down. Most of it has to do with funding. I mean, how great would it be to get out of school with NO debt, eh?
If funding weren't an issue, though, and I were just choosing between Ohio and Idaho outright... I think Idaho would earn points for its location in the Northwest and its being a little less "well known." You know - ah jeez, I guess really I'd choose it so I could say, "suck it, all you people who care, I'm a Westerner!" Ugh, oh dear, but there's the honest truth. I'm from Washington too, by the way. I don't know; I think this anti-prestige feeling might be a Washington thing - do you think so too? In any case, I should've said a while ago: congratulations! That's an impressive line-up of acceptances, and I wish you lots of luck - wherever you choose.
@Michael - One of my close friends is applying to Visual Arts and he is almost exclusively focused on prestige and networking opportunities because, in order to have the career he wants, he will need his MFA program to give him an entree with key critics, well-connected artist representatives and influential galleries. My buddy wants a robust enough international career to financial support him. So he's going to graduate school in order to get the things he lacks.
When I first heard his goal, I thought, D'uh! Doesn't every artist want to be supported by selling their all around the world? Apparently, the answer is that, yeah, we probably do all want that, but that the path to potentially achieving that goal in the contemporary visual arts world is heavily dependent on making key connections. Influential connections don't guarantee international gallery opportunities, but the lack of them almost always results in the lack of this type of opportunities.
In the visual arts world, according to what I've been told, different MFA programs have quantifiable track records in different areas. If, for example, his goal was to start with a strong, lucrative regional career, his MFA program criteria would be different than the guidelines he's currently following. If his main goal was to become a teaching artist, he would have still different criteria and act according to that. If his goal was primarily craft development, the criteria would be even more different. Every school my friend applied was chosen based on the program's ability to support his ability to work the way he wants to work as an artist.
I'm telling you all of this stuff about my buddy and his MFA apps in a different field because talking with him about apps has broadened my perspective on how I'm considering the MFA opportunities that I have. I composed the list of schools that I applied to based primarily on what I knew of their faculty and published grads. I tried to pick programs that I thought might offer good mentors who could help me develop my craft. That is still my primary goal, unfortunately, it doesn't help me choose between offers from schools when I think they would ALL offer me great mentoring and development. So, thinking about my friend's criteria, I've started thinking about how the programs are different in terms of the type of writer's life that each is most readily positioned to offer. Like, I believe one program would be my best entree to a teaching career because it offers such strong pedagogical support and unparalleled opportunities to build a strong and varied teaching resume while still in the MFA. I believe another offers stronger opportunities to build my chops as a critic, thinking and writing about other wrtiers' work. I think a third, due to its location and faculty composition, would offer me a strong entree into the business side of publishing.
Basically, I don't 100% agree with my buddy's 100% career-focused approach to choosing an MFA program. But I think I've found some value in his perspective because his approach helped me start considering 1 - my potential life as an artist, in addition to the craft of the artist; 2 - the concrete assets that each program offers, and specific ways that each set of assets could support the development of a viable life as a working artist; 3 - what specific things, besides writing great poems, could give me a happy future; and 4 - what concrete things can I realistically do to put myself in a position to pursue these paths that I believe might lead to happy, fruitful working-writer years.
ThisaRgus post got so long (and douchey, I know) that I had to continue it... And I probably shouldn't be giving my opinion to someone about how to choose, anyway, when I still haven't chosen. But, reading your posts, Michael, I though that maybe your question about prestige was really a question about how each program's position might benefit your future goals. And so I thought that perhaps you might benefit from thinking more specifically about what YOU want and then by looking at concrete ways each program might (or might not) be able to support your pursuit of those goals. Your buddy's idea of prestige and connections may or may not be true. But the more important issue, I think, is how does your school (or his, for that matter) concrete ways to make and utilize that prestige or those connections? Prestige, as an amorphous idea, doesn't offer any advantages. But if that prestige gets you resume-building intrernships and/or sustained relationships with influential people in the field, then that is of quantifiable value. But if you can't define any concrete way that the program's prestige can help you to do the things that you want to do, then it doesn't seem like the prestige is an actual benefit.
Just my $0.02!
Good news today. I finally was able to see my official GRE scores and got a 5.5 for analytical writing to go with the 690 verbal. If those aren't good enough for the PhD program, I don't know what is.
My application is officially complete and being considered by the department. Now, all I can do is wait. Unfortunately, since I applied late, they were almost done with their process. That means my candidacy has to be especially strong for consideration. I hope my publication history will help. On my sample, I noted at the bottom which poems were published or forthcoming, and when and where. Rattle, Spoon River Poetry Review, and Cutthroat, among others. I know I did a much better job with the SoP this time.
Whatever happens with SUNY Albany, I have learned a great deal this time around, so if I do not get in now, I will bring a host of experience to the process next fall. And the d*mn GREs are done and respectable.
My first choices will be the two programs to which I've applied this year (SUNY Albany -still waiting- and UMASS-Amherst-rejected) plus some low-res programs.
I've gone through every emotion in this process. My 17-year-old is much more blase about her application process for undergrad. Of course, she's 2-0-0 at this point and still waiting on decisions from three more schools.
Again, congrats to all those who are accepted. And hang in there to everyone else.
Hi all,
Long, LONG time lurker (who loves each and every one of you!!) has a question, mostly directed at Trilbe, the wise woman of the blog. Somehow the universe misaligned and I was accepted at both NYU and Columbia in fiction... and am really torn about which to choose. Junot Diaz will be on faculty at NYU next year, and I just simply love that man. If funding were not an issue (which it is, but I'm willing to sacrifice for quality), which school would make me a better writer? I guess I'm thinking mostly in terms of faculty and cohorts - which would I learn most from? And then ultimately which would give me best access to a support system (alumnae/mentors, agents, etc.) post-graduation? Thank you SO much for your insights - this blog has kept me remarkably well-informed!!!
Accepted for poetry at Ole Miss.
MOMMYJ!!! THAT IS SO AWESOME!! All that worry over the GRE... and you KILLED it. Your 17-year-old will one day realize how her mom kicked the GRE's ass.
You've been such a trooper through this whole process... I, for one, really admire your persistence and attitude (I've only been waitlisted or rejected at this point in my app process). If it doesn't work out at Albany this time around, you MUST know that it's due to your late application... next year, you'll definitely get in. Still, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you, bigtime. You're my hero!
michael,
tell your friend prestige doesn't mean squadoosh. at least 3/4 of IWW and columbia grads don't publish (not in big time journals) and more than likely end up teaching (if even that). writing is ALL ABOUT your writing. tell your friend the 100K they spend at columbia won't be paid back with their writing, even if one of the five NY publishers gives him/her a book deal. only NY times best sellers are able to do so.
i have no MFA, but i have been published in some heavy journals. win a few contests, take a few summer programs, and more than anything: PRACTICE. in my view, the main goal of an MFA program (other than receiving a degree for teaching) is to find amazing readers. i have three or four. that's all i need.
ok, enough of that. now it's time to go watch cuuuuuse march on.
Jes, that is great! Congrats
@Ali-so sorry about Pacific, i think that letter is coming for me, too.
here's an example:
toby wolff once told me that during the early stages of his teaching career he tried to mold his students into writers he wanted them to be, to force them to write the way he felt they should write. he said it took him a long time to realize this approach was way off. he also said that many MFA programs have a similar process and students with natural ability often find it difficult to gain much from the way the schools are put together.
and don't take this as me bragging about knowing toby, because the only reason i do is that i grew up family friends.
and you future MFAers, take this with a grain of salt. i'm just hope people who are rejected across the board realize it's not the end of the world.
i think i'm trying to pump myself up for the cuuuuuuse game!
Congratulations Emily - When did you hear from Columbia?
Now I am really freaking out!
@seth abramson and @klairkwilty
this is kinda late, but i am a student at NMSU and i wanted to let you both know that receiving funding at NMSU is extremely common. right now there are only 4 students in the entire MFA program that do not receive funding, and several of them teach elsewhere in the area so as to get teaching experience and income.
Emily:
It's wonderful you've gotten into NYU and Columbia. But no one can answer those questions. No one can answer how well you're going to fit into either program, or measure the success of the alumni of one program over the other. Whose program works better for you as far as financial aid goes, as far as the structure of the program, as far as aesthetics and faculty? Rather than ask us, you should ask current students at those programs and assess for yourself which you think would be best for you.
Congratulations and good luck.
@carrie
That's great news to hear, honestly -- I'm always psyched to learn that a program has better funding than it advertises. But that's the problem -- until NMSU itself acknowledges that its funding is something other than "limited" (its words, not mine), I can't yet do anything with your info. I hope you'll get a chance to talk with someone in the NMSU MFA administration about updating the NMSU website. And then have them e-mail me at sethabramson[@]yahoo.com when they do. It could mean a substantial boost in the reputation of the program if what you're saying is right (which I have no reason to doubt). Not to mention that NMSU not having a webmaster is also keeping applications (and thus selectivity) down. Best,
S.
Ok... MommyJ's mention of her GRE score (690-kickASS, by the way) on the verbal section got me thinking... I had a not so good GRE score (580) and I was wondering if that impacted my ability to get into certain schools... like, maybe I was accepted to the program, but the graduate school had stricter guidelines and required at least a 600 or something...
was there anyone here who had a GRE score in the 500s who was accepted at a big time school?... I know some might be embarrassed to post, but I am just wondering.
Emily again,
Just to blather on: getting the MFA isn't about the statistics you're looking for. And becoming a better writer is a highly personal and individual process that the MFA can help with, but the choice you're faced with cannot be made by comparing student success rates. It will come down to how happy you can be in a program, because you're getting what you want out of it, that will help you make the biggest strides.
And now I'll shut up.
@Perpetua - I got a call Friday afternoon (3/19), from Rebecca Curtis. Didn't think to ask about class size or how far into notifications they are. GOOD LUCK to you!!! Fingers crossed that it all works out!!!
@Jasmine - Excellent, excellent advice, thank you so much!!! I think I'm just absurdly trying to quantify in this totally unquantifiable realm, and am realizing this is completely impossible and will absolutely take your advice.
I guess there's no sense being hopeful about NYU anymore. :-(
I applied only to NYU and Cornell (couldn't afford to apply to more schools than that this year - I'm an international applicant). Didn't hear from either - and I'm assuming both are rejects.
Does anyone know if age has anything to do with MFA acceptances? I know they *say* it doesn't matter, but I've always wondered. Ditto with educational background.
I scored 720 in Verbal in GRE (and 630 in math and 5.5 in analytical). I know that's good, but I'm really getting the feeling that GRE scores don't matter!
Jillian Lauren,
I was informed that my GRE scores did in fact hurt me. I graduated cum laude from undergrad and with a 4.0 from my first Master's degree, but my standardized test scores have always been pathetic (500s for verbal, 700s for math, which was a complete fluke).
I even received an LoR from an accomplished writer, but I was told that some of the best programs do weed out applicants based on their GRE scores. Of course, the writing sample is #1, but if they have several strong writers, they turn to scores, and out we go!
Good luck to you!
- Another Jillian
@Jillian Lauren - I cannot answer your query.
re. GRE scores. I don't know how all the schools treat the GREs other than what I've read here, which, it's not important and it's only used by the Graduate Admissions Office to make sure the applicant passes set minimums. However, I do know how one school does it. I talked to professor at a low- to mid-level unfunded school in California (I will not name the professor to protect his good name). He assigns points to different aspects of the application -- writing sample, GRE, GPA, LoR. How, I don't know. He may weigh them differently depending on what they are -- obviously, the writing sample is weighed higher than other parts of the app. This leads me to believe that if your GRE is low, other parts of the app has to be higher for the candidate to have much of a chance.
This is how one professor at one school does it. Who's to say other professors don't do it in similar fashion?
Emily,
I think you can expect a much stronger cohort at NYU than Columbia -- Columbia's acceptance rate is about 300% higher, and whatever anyone tells you it is mathematical fact that, all things being equal, that would lead to a stronger cohort. And a stronger cohort isn't some kind of vague concept -- it actually affects one's day-to-day MFA experience. Plus at NYU there's a shot at some (partial, minimal) funding, whereas at Columbia you're in it for the full $120,000, no question. As to agents, look at it this way -- most are lazy degenerates who'll only leave NYC to go visit a program they heard was good 20 years ago (more or less, they'll visit Iowa, Michigan, and, say, Hopkins); none of them attempt to justify their exorbitant fees and "gatekeeper" arrogance by actually reading up on which programs currently have the strongest writers. But they're certainly willing to tool around NYC in a Lexus if they have to, or have someone come to their office like a penitent -- the point being, if you're in NYC, you're in NYC, and with agents, because they don't know much about their field besides how to drive cross-town or direct someone to their offices, that's good enough. The reality is that they mostly just say (to MFA students), "Contact me again when you've got a ms., kiddo." I think they're usually chomping a cigar while they say this.
S.
@Jasmine
Personally I agree with you 100% -- it's why I wouldn't attend either NYU or Columbia. The key to having a special experience at one's MFA program is having time to write, not having to either work full-time or take out crippling loan debt which will hover over your head for 2 years. But I also think folks should be able to make these decisions however they want; in the same way no one should tell someone to make decisions based on the rankings, if someone with a head on their shoulders decides that, for them, one particular aspect of the rankings means something substantive -- not merely symbolic -- to them, well, that's their call also, right? I think the "everyone's decision process is personal" meme has to run in two directions or else it's just a thin rhetorical cover for one entrenched view of MFA programs or another.
S.
Seth:
Too true. Thanks.
@Michael
I agree with what everyone's said about prestige -- I think only 1-2 programs in the country offer a noticeable boost to career prospects, and Columbia is probably not one of them, and if it is it only will be for about 4-5 more years -- but I'd also add that, after the top few programs, fit (which I take funding to be a part of) is so much more important than any sort of ranking consideration (which should probably always be a secondary consideration anyway). The difference between a program ranked #40 and #60 should not be seen as particularly substantial, even in the limited "reputation" category you're worried about. But if it makes you feel any better: Idaho seems to be on the rise, and a Wyoming-like leap isn't impossible next year. (Wyoming, ranked lower last year [#70] than Idaho is now [#64], is now ranked just one spot [at #40] away from Ohio State [#39]).
On a side note: While I agree it's wise to talk to current students if you can, a) you have to talk to several at each school, do not base your opinion of any program on a single person (for reasons I hope are obvious); b) do not allow anyone to convince that we can, or you can, or anyone can know what are rightly to be considered "unknowables." You can know a program's funding, you can know whether you like a program's location, you can know how much it means to you to be far from home, etcetera, but "fit with faculty" cannot be known, nor can (without tons and tons of investigation) something like the internal atmosphere of the program. I just want to make sure no one is pretending that something that's a "guess" is really a "personal factor" -- a personal factor is one that is a knowable and is personal; a guess is a guess, and it shouldn't play a major role in anyone's matriculation decision unless you're the sort of person (and sometimes I'll admit I am) who feels better about decisions if you've made them from the gut.
S.
Hi Jasmine,
You're being gracious ;-) -- I'm not sure my note to you actually made the sense I was hoping it would, just reading it now. I mean to say that there are definitely some immutable facts -- like that living far from home is going to be difficult for someone who wants to visit home often, or that bad funding puts one into debt, or that higher selectivity does, on average, mean a stronger cohort -- and the only important thing is not that an applicant use one factor or another to make their decision, but that any factor employed is one that is substantive. So let's say that someone is a prestige-hound (and I say that kindly, as I'm sure I have been myself at times): if that person wanted to attend, say, Syracuse over University of Memphis, that would be a decision we might agree with or disagree with, but it wouldn't be one made without some basis behind it -- as the national rankings do go most of the way, these days, in determining "prestige." So in that situation I'd say, okay, if you want to make that decision, that's fine, whether or not I agree with your thought process and use of the rankings. But if someone were to say something that on the surface seems more palatable and more reasonable -- say, "I'm going to attend Syracuse because I know I'll fit in better with the faculty there" -- I'd say, whoa! That's just a guess. Don't make decisions based on guesses. Hope that makes sense.
S.
Seth:
I don't think I was implying that anyone should make a decision based on unquanitifiables like atmoshpere and fit. But if I was, I didn't mean to. Figuring out the visceral stuff is why I'm often the "go visit" voice among these comments.
Thanks for clarifying though, it makes more sense.
@Seth,
Have I mentioned how much I adore lawyer-poets?:) But seriously your logic is unassailable - THANK YOU for your dedication to our craft (even if I'm I die-hard NYer). There are many of us who would be absolutely floundering without it.
@Seth - LOL re. lazy degenerates
Unfortunately, lazy degenerates are found in every sector of society. They are very good with disguises and have a solid collection of colorful masks. But they're so transparent. Easy to spot them.
QUESTION TO ALL
So here's the situation: I've been accepted into a pretty good school (ranked in the top thirty via P&W). Despite my crappy GPA and atrocious GRE scores, I've been offered placement at an MFA in poetry program. However, from what I can infer, they offer no funding. After I've earned my MFA I will be over 100,000 in debt (including undergraduate loans) if I am not granted any sort of funding or GSI during my stint. However, they offer such things, but they are in no way guarenteed.
I really, really want to go. I feel that I got EXTRA lucky getting into this school and would probably not get into such a good school, if I were to wait to apply elsewhere. I'm afraid though of what the financial situation will cause for me.
My question is this: Is the financial burden worth the MFA experience? Like I said, I really really want to go and my gut's telling me to pursue it, but I do not want collapse under the financial pressure. I feel that the loan money should cover cost-of-livnig,etc., so I shouldn't have to work to much while earning the degree...but still. According to the loan calculator website, I will be paying 1200 a month for 10 years! EEEk. I don't think I'm going to get this chance again...I was rejected from all the other schools I applied to. What's a girl to do?
Manasi Subramanian - first off great scores. I wish I had those. Second - in my opinion, its more about the writing and if you have such killer scores they help too.
Jillian Lauren - I agree with Woon and J Haley. Last year I was waitlisted at Alabama and Pudue and got into UNW without any funding. I started asking around and found out that applicants often get weeded out due to the GRE scores if the faculty can't decide between two or more strong writing samples. So I chose to wait another year, took the Stanford Summer Writing course, thought of giving the GRE again and re-apply. In the end I didn't give the GRE again but I worked hard on my writing sample.
@ Jillian Lauren - if you end up re-applying next year, why not target some schools that don't require GREs? I think I only had to send them to 2-3 out of my list, and when they said it was "optional" I didn't take the bait.
@Michael
Just want to echo what Seth and others have said.
Program prestige doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things -- unless you're talking about a VERY small sect of schools like Iowa and Michigan (maybe Virginia, maybe Texas). And even though those aforementioned programs are very good programs, I'd argue that the notion of "prestige" is overrated anyway because it is largely vague and unquantifiable.
Instead, as Seth suggested, I'd recommend that you base your decision on known, quantifiable factors -- namely $$$ and geographic location. From your original post, it seems like proximity to your family is important to you. Considering that Idaho is closer to your family (AND that they're offering you funding), in my mind (based on the criteria that your provided), I'd go with Idaho.
Best of luck!
@seth
i think the website is being updated and i will certainly let the necessary people know to contact you when it is. head of CW connie voisine has a new blog (http://clarabellenmsu.blogspot.com/) about nmsu's CW program, which could be a good info source for prospective students. i think that right now our stipend is about 16k a year, which is more than livable for southern NM.
and to anyone else that would like info about NMSU (program, funding,etc), leave a comment on my blog and i'd be happy to answer any and all questions!
Hi Jasmine,
No, you're right, I don't think you were implying that. I addressed my comment to you mostly because your comment inspired my own thought about Emily's situation. Sorry for any confusion!
Be well,
S.
@Perpetua: Thanks. That's what I figured. Any idea about whether age and educational qualifications figure in the decision-making? Oh and I made a typo boo-boo in my previous comment. That's 720 in Verbal, 730 in Quantitative and 5.5 in Analytical. (Yes, I'm a big fat geek).
@Emily:
I'm in the same boat, except for poetry. Is there an email address at which I can contact you? I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Cheers,
Victoria
Sqeedo:
$100,000K+ in debt is, for me personally, not worth it. I'm sorry. I actually had this conversation with my dad who went into some debt for a first class education at the - supposedly - best law school in the country. The differences between us are clear: after the MFA, I have no guaranteed career prospects and can't possiby afford to pay the debt, whereas he was a lawyer out of the best law school and could bank on getting a fine job, which he did. He got some scholarships from that school, paid the debts on time every month, and still it took him over ten years to get out of that debt. I couldn't face that without the job security he had. So I didn't apply anywhere that didn't have the option of good funding.
You got in this year, which was a crazy year. It wasn't a fluke. I would put money on you getting in somewhere again, if you decide to apply again. Good luck!
re. age
I am of the belief that most AdCom's are consciously trying to NOT let this matter. After all, age discrimination=bad. But they are human after all and I suspect (but don't know for sure) that they fall into the same mental trap: let's nurture the young talent; nurturing the old(er) ones are a waste.
(Note: I personally do not believe that nurturing old(er) talent is a waste. I'm merely saying others may think this way.)
@Woon, jeez, I really hope you're wrong (about the age thing)
Sqeedo,
I think the important thing is to never let fear govern a major life decision. Enthusiasm for the major decisions we make in our lives is key. The MFA is not a time-sensitive degree -- you can do it at any time in your life. One doesn't "fall behind" -- in any sense whatsoever -- if one does an MFA in, say, 2012 versus 2010 (providing you're reading and writing vigorously in the meantime). It's not like law school in that regard. I'd say re-dedicate yourself to your writing, have your work looked at by other people (whether it be an online workshop, friends who write, professors, or a mentoring service like DH) and then re-apply next year -- or, if the feedback tells you you've further to go, apply in a couple years. The point is that nearly a third of all applicants to MFA programs re-apply, and increasingly they do that because applicants are demanding what they have a right to as terminal-degree students: full funding. It sounds like, from your message, you might be as worried about what you're going to do in the ensuing year (between now and the next application cycle) as much as anything else? Or maybe I'm reading subtext. In any case, if you got into a top 30 program without funding another go at this -- with perhaps some additional guidance from outside -- might well put you in a top 50 program with funding. And as someone with a debt-to-income ratio of 14-to-1 (no, I'm not kidding; law school doesn't offer grants in-program) I can tell you that's not a place you want to be. The only reason I can survive is my alma mater has the most generous law-school [long-term] loan forgiveness program in the country -- most folks aren't in that situation.
Be well,
Seth
P.S. {On edit} Jasmine, we cross-posted -- only a coincidence that we were both talking about law school! ;-)
re. prestige
Virginia is the last school I'm waiting on. I often picture myself in Charlottesville. Happy thoughts. But I also picture my life post-MFA and whether it's Iowa, Virginia, or Podunk A&M, it's always the same: I'm writing in my backyard writing studio (it's actually a shed, but I call it a "studio") and sending work out to agents, lit mags, and editors. So, in essence, it doesn't matter. I guess the only difference is that in my cover letters, I will have the luxury of writing "I have an MFA from Virginia," which ultimately doesn't matter if the subject matter of my novel is about a White guy from Kansas who ruminates about mowing his lawn. Agents and editors are probably looking for more exotic subject matter, I suspect. Perhaps an Iraqi guy who ruminates about mowing his lawn? Now, that's more like it.
@Sud - I hope I'm wrong, too. On the plus side, there is the token factor; that is, let's just admit one applicant over the age of 40 just to show we're not discriminating based on age. Crazy, I know.
I once worked for a company that hired an outside consultant to help "reorganize." They came up with some numbers. The company took those numbers and ended up laying off thousands, most of whom were in their 50s and 60s. They got nice severance packages though. Nearly all workers in their 20s and 30s were retained. Hmmmmm...
@Jillian Lauren:
My GRE score was in the low-mid 500s in verbal and my essay was ABYSMALLY low and I got into every program (w/ funding) I applied to including Michigan, Minnesota, Montana, and Houston...
And it's good, too, since I REALLY thought it mattered and had been stressing out about it (I have never done well on standardized tests). Turns out, I don't think it really matters.
@Ena
Congrats on UNCG poetry acceptance!!!
Hey all, can anyone provide a list of schools that don't require GRE scores? Preferably east of the Mississippi?? I'm going to retake the stupid thing this summer, but I'm not banking on too much of an improvement. Hearing about "weeding" makes me want to cry...
re: GRE scores
I have concluded that GRE scores have little to no importance in the admissions process. I got into several schools without even meeting their minimum. My GRE scores were absolutely ridiculous. I hardly studied for them, and I'm glad I didn't waste my time with that.
Accepted this morning into Georgia College and State University, CNF! Full funding--and a quite excellent, personable, yada-yada, e-mail from the director. Awesome, can't believe it!
@GCSU people, there could be more acceptances going out, as I believe the 1st notice on here was at least a couple weeks ago, and I didn't come off the waitlist.
It's a Sunday a.m., but I guess that doesn't mean y'all get a break from checking and re-checking your inboxes ever 30 minutes. Now, I have a decision to make between EWU and GCSU, I know, woe is me.
For any of you waiting on either of these schools, I'll try my best to make a decision soon, to free up a spot, but it'll be hard. They both sound like great programs, and were my two top choices.
Good Sunday luck to you all...sending good vibes and "stuff."
My GRE scores blew the roof off my house. PM/email me if you want to know what they are.
@Seth and Jasmine
Thanks for the thoughts. Indeed Seth, I am nervous about the upcoming year. I will have graduated with two undergraduate degrees that offer no real job prospects.
But I am still seriously afraid that this chance was once-in-a-lifetime and considering that my GRE scores were so low and my GPA contains an F and a D and multiple Cs, that I won't be able to get in elsewhere.
I contacted the department today to inquire about funding oppurtunities.
EEEEG, what a hard decision. I feel that I will probably go, because I just want it THAT badly.
Again, thanks so much for the thoughts. They have given me a lot to think about.
@Austin:
Thank you! If you're waiting for them I wish you the best of luck!!
Regarding GRE - Ena thanks for sharing, makes me feel so much better!
Hi Sqeedo,
MFA programs don't care about either GPA or GRE -- the only question is whether a school's Graduate College has minimum standards. Most don't or have a low standard, and at some places the MFA can actually go to bat for an applicant they want and get a waiver of those minimums. Certainly one can re-take the GRE and raise one's score to ensure it's above any low minimum programs set. GPA is a tougher situation, but again many schools don't have a GPA minimum for their MFA program -- and if they do, it'll say so on their website so you can know before you send in an application fee. Best of luck,
S.
re. Waitlist
New topic. I've been thinking about waitlists recently because I'm on several of them. Many posters and even schools talk about "rank" and "position" and whether someone is "high" or "low" on the waitlist. I'm beginning to think the schools who are informing applicants are not exactly on the up-n-up. Let's examine two extreme cases:
One school makes offers based on the writing sample alone. They do not seek out diversity. If they don't rank waitlist candidates at the outset, they'll eventually have to do so for the top 2-3 waitlist spots. Whether this practice is right or wrong is beyond the scope of my post. But there it is.
Another school - no names - has made offers with diversity in mind: equal numbers of male vs. female, a good "balance" of aesthetics among the offered candidates, politically correct numbers of different races/ethnicities/religions/etc. To get the perfect "balance" is not an easy task. How do they pick which applicant gets the next offer? Well, I suspect it depends on who declines their offer. If a female declines, they're going to make an offer to a female. If a Chinese-American declines, they may make an offer to the next Asian-American. If a Muslim declines, they're going to make an offer to the next Buddhist. If an experimental White guy declines, they'll pick an experimental White guy off the waitlist.
Needless to say, they won't offer to anyone unless their writing samples were up to snuff. I mean, they have standards. But, in order to achieve "balance," it doesn't make sense to "rank" waitlist candidates.
This is just my guess. But I could be wrong. Maybe it's a lot simpler than I think it is.
re. waitlist (cont.)
So, if a school tells you you're "high" on their waitlist, they wouldn't exactly be lying. It all depends on the profile of the person who declines their offer; that is, you're "high" if the declining candidate matches your profile.
@Woon- I think they always give the spot to the old person.
@Sud - LOL! I hope you're right!
Woon,
That theory is something to contemplate. There are many, many schools. I am not in a position to say that no school takes this approach.
I do know, though, that with one school whose offer I declined, I got a PM from the person who got my spot some hours later - a person who doesn't share my gender, race or aesthetic, really. But that was one school, so, really, who knows.
Also, sometimes it comes down to how badly one prof or a bloc of professors want certain writers. I've heard from an MFA prof that it can get really intense when it comes to whittling down candidates. It gets practically legislative - deals are made and compromises are reached a la "Fine, ABC is excellent, and I'll concede to his/her acceptance just as long as XYZ is first in line on the waitlist." Matters of demographics don't really seem to come into play. Or, one could argue, it comes into play as a by product of the professors' own demographic makeup and the aesthetics (backgrounds?) they're drawn to.
But, again, there are many MFA programmes - so who knows? (which is basically what you're saying, anyway.)
If Wisconsin loses to Cornell in today's tourney game, I'll forgive them (wisc) for being the first school to reject me.
Go Big Red!
Oh, and to Michael who posted oh so long ago: I was in a similar situation as you. If you'd like to hear how I slogged through this rather arduous thought process to come to my decision, hit me up: mangercratie(at)gmail(dot)com.
@Ink and Beans--made the Irish Soda Bread, it turned out great, was a big hit with my family. Thanks so much.
hey woon, i think you're totally wrong about the waitlist, and unless you've got evidence to back your theory up, give it a rest, ok?
Happy Sunday future MFA-ers,
if you're bored, like me, check out my story:
http://christopherlinforth.wordpress.com/excerpts/
Although it was published recently, I wrote it two years ago and is not really representative of my work these days.
This story here is though:
http://www.amazon.com/Father-Crowd-ebook/dp/B0033PRYBM
Well that's me done for blatant self-promotion!
Here's hoping Monday brings good news!
Woon,
I've thought a lot about the diversity/United Colors of Benetton issue as it relates to admissions.
I'll say this first in the spirit of transparency: I'm a white male. Superficially, I am part of the authorial hegemony: white males writing about the challenges of being white and male. My guess is that programs, like agents and publishing houses, look for new voices, a euphemism for color, anything-besides-Christian creed, class, etc. Given the political climate, where policies like affirmative action are being challenged and criticized by some of the people they were designed to protect, programs won't be candid about diversity policies. That said, can you picture a program admitting a class of all males? Of all white males? Of all females? Of all black females? Programs do and must take these issues into consideration. Just don't expect candidness on their part.
This is frustrating for a white male, like me, who's gay. There isn't a box to check on any of the applications I filled out to communicate this. The only program at all curious about the applicant's unique struggles (their word) was Michigan. And you know what? I thought writing about being gay would be exploitative. Currying favor from admission committees over something I couldn't control made me uncomfortable. (I ended up writing about it, and I didn't get in, so take that as you will.)
But despite the frustrations and the unfairness, I think an applicant would be better positioned psychologically, emotionally, if he or she accepts the imperfections of the process. In a field as competitive (and subjective) as writing, sometimes you're going to be passed over for the Brazilian-Finnish transgender who's autistic and writes stories only about gauchos. It happens. And because these programs conduct admissions behind curtains, and the curtains are thick, heavy velvet you can't see through, we'll never be totally certain why X got in over Y.
But don't tell me it doesn't happen! We all know it happens. Let's be honest you guys.
re. waitlist.
It's just a theory. I was merely laying out what I thought MAY be going on. I was not making any judgments -- good or bad -- whatsoever about this process, just trying to understand it from my limited view. I don't know why anyone would get upset with me for expressing a judgmentless thought. I was just saying:
here's how I think it works
Sheesh!
@ M.Swann,
I'm with you. Excellent comment on the realities of this process. I've often felt it's unfair that I'm probably perceived as a cute little white suburban midwestern mom. And who wants one of THOSE in their cohort?
Yes, I'm a mom, but I'm so much more. I'm also gay (I just didn't come out till my 30s), I've been brutally near-homeless poor, and I've led an extremely non-traditional life.
I couldn't ever be a "token" anything -- I'm not a "typical" gay woman, not a typical mom, not a typical midwesterner, not a typical poor person, not even a typical or stereotypical writer.
I tried to hint at some of this in my SOP, and one reason I submitted a story with a male first-person narrator was to show I won't just be writing about lesbians and/or white, suburban moms.
Anyway. I did wish committees would see who I "really" am.
/end Sunday afternoon ramble...
Seth, Jasmine, et al--
The "prestige" conversation perhaps ties in to one aspect of my current dilemma, on which I'd love any and all input. Namely: although I'm keeping a few other offers on the table, I've pretty much narrowed down my choices to UMass Amherst vs. Michigan. Of course, there are many factors to consider here, but among those factors, the one I'm particularly stymied by is teaching vs. time.
Michigan's first year is fully funded, no teaching required. Year two I'd teach one class each semester.
UMass has offered me a TA position, in which I'd teach 2 classes the first semester and 1 the second semester.
UMass' program is three years long, which I find appealing--but perhaps the extra length is negated by the teaching responsibility? That is, perhaps Michigan's free first year--and all the potential writing time therein--is simply unbeatable?
Another consideration is whether or not three years of teaching at UMass would be a big leg up in getting a teaching job post-grad (vs only one year of experience teaching at Michigan).
Thoughts?
@MommyJ,
I'm totally pulling for you -- I'm hoping I see you post an acceptance to that PhD program REALLY soon :) Way to rock the GRE! Well done :)
Seth,
Can you please comment on the San Francisco schools: USF, SFSU, CCA?
Is funding the biggest thing affecting their rankings? The only information I am finding on the programs is through professors I know (at USF and CCA) and the schools' websites. I would really appreciate a viewpoint a little less biased.
Thank you!
@Seth, could you please post the link to the rankings again? Both full and low res? Thanks so much.
@Sud
All the rankings are still here:
http://sethabramson.blogspot.com/
Just scroll down the page and look on the right sidebar.
I'm so glad that all the apartments on Craigslist for Iowa City look like double-wide trailers. Jesus, what am I getting myself into?
@ Sud
I was a little sorry about Pacific. It looked like a great program. I guess I would feel better if I had one acceptance under my belt. Alas, I have 8 schools outstanding. I have come to the conclusion, albeit early, that it is quite alright to go through the application process 2 or 3 times. I was hoping that would not be the case for me. But, frankly, choosing an MFA school is a bit like a marriage for 2 years. We need to have chemistry and if by rejecting me, the schools are saying: "No, darling, this time it is YOU and not ME" then I would rather suffer the brutal honesty and go someplace I can grow as a writer. (I stopped short of saying "go to a school that appreciates me"). Best of luck to you Sud - I hope this week brings more good news your way!
A:
I've heard such wonderful things about UMASS Amherst. Not to state a truism, but many times, teaching and engaging with student works can inspire ideas for your own writing. Amherst is also just a wonderful town!
Michigan is obviously a great program but my friends who are there have acknowledged certain shortcomings like the LONG winters, in addition to others, and sometimes (this might be their own issue) a reluctance to write despite the time.
Just a thought!
J
just reiterating J. Haley's request for more info on the SF schools, as I, too, am interested.
"Can you please comment on the San Francisco schools: USF, SFSU, CCA?
Is funding the biggest thing affecting their rankings? The only information I am finding on the programs is through professors I know (at USF and CCA) and the schools' websites. I would really appreciate a viewpoint a little less biased.
Thank you!"
A few other writers and myself have started up the MFA Rejects Workshop. (Okay, the name is negotiable. I wanted to own the word reject and steal its power, but whatever.) It's a group of people who applied for MFA programs this year and didn't make it. Well, actually we're open to people who did make it, too, and want to help. Our mission is to kick ass at writing to be ready for next year, with a goal of having 100% of our members accepted, should they chose to reapply.
Really, the point is that we want to continue to support each other in writing outside the MFA season. We're all paying free dollars for the privilege, and the group is open to writers of all genres who give a damn.
If this sounds like something you're interested in, send me your email address, and I'll send you an invitation to join the Ning group. The email link in my profile is active, so you can find my address there. Hope to hear from some of you soon.
@klairkwilty - what's wrong with double-wide trailers? LOL! Seriously, I would think the good folks at Dey House got housing all figured out for incoming students and can guide you in the right direction. I know some MFA programs specifically wrote little housing booklets (pamphlets?) and sent them to their incoming students. (I guess they want their MFA students to live together or something)
@Woon - I received no such brochure. I'll just move into the Dey House. They can deal.
@klairkwilty - not a bad idea. They should just build annexes and wings to house writers. Of course, they'd have to add additional plumbing for the toilets and showers. Seriously, get a house or apt in Coralville and take the short bus ride to Iowa City.
"add additional"...oy vei...
@Woon - I was told that Coralville is ick. But I'm going to check it out.
Squeedo,
A little late here, since I went to a movie, but I also have an F. And a C-. And a withdrawal. And I've gotten into one Scottish program and one American program. I'd listen to Seth about GPA and GRE being less important factors to admissions committees. Do not fret.
@klairkeilty - okay, now you're just being whiny. First, you complain about Iowa City's double-wide trailers and now Coralville is icky. LOL! There's really no place else except for West Branch, Cedar Rapids, or that commune behind Wal-Mart. (j/k re. Wal-Mart)
The whole funding situation at Columbia is a major MFA buzz kill. Would've applied there myself if it was financially more feasible. Something I would like to bring up that I haven't seen mentioned as part of the debate yet is that the program is housed within the School of the Arts and not Columbia's English Dept. What kind of effects does this have on a program?
@ Michael
Your post caught my eye because I am desperately praying to every deity I can think of to get off the TA/funding waitlist at Idaho. From my own selfish perspective, it breaks my heart to think I might not get to go to my first choice because someone who accepted Idaho's offer did so even though they thought another program might be better for them or didn't really think they'd be happiest at Idaho. HOWEVER (before anyone flames me), if you are crazy about Idaho, then you should accept their generous offer! Of course, I'm one of those that doesn't really care about prestige, so you can take it with a grain of salt if prestige is important to you. If I don't get to go to Idaho, I'd love to think that everyone who is attending is just as excited and pumped about it as I would have been. I hope you make the choice that gives you the most excitement and happiness just thinking about it- whether that's Idaho, Eastern, or Ohio is for you to decide. Good luck, and maybe I'll see you in Moscow in the fall.
I'm totally with Woon on waitlists. My guess would be that committees want a certain "mix" - especially at the very small programs. Although like Woon, I don't have any "concrete" data to back that up.
@ kaybay - a few schools that I researched that do not require GRE scores include:
Iowa
Michigan
Irvine
Madison
Arizona
Syracuse
Arizona State
There are heaps of others, but those made my short list. I'm not the best standardized test-taker and didn't like the way some programs emphasized the GRE. The fact that several programs require certain scores (and advertise so on their website) kept me from applying. I know it's sometimes the fault of the grad program and not the CW department, but I still struck 2-3 great schools off my list simply because they emphasized the GRE. I just didn't want to be in an environment where one test played such a big role - to me that didn't bode well for the future.
For the sake of fairness, I'll confess that my Verbal score was a 560, my math a 480, and I scored a 6.0 on the analytical writing.
The school I got into never even saw my scores. I really, really believe that they don't ultimately matter.
@ Alison, re: Michigan vs. Amherst
I used to teach high school, and I specifically chose not to apply to schools that required TAs to teach more than one class each semester. I figured that I'd rather re-apply than do a 2/2 load, for the simple reason that teaching can be really exhausting. I don't think a 2/1 load is inherently awful or anything like that, but I would encourage you to think about how much time you're really going to have to write during a double-course semester. If the classes are each 3 credits, then you're looking at at least 6-8 hours in class time, plus office hours, plus correcting student work. If each class has 20 students and they're each turning in one piece of writing each week (conservatively) you're looking at 40 new essays or stories each week. Let's say it takes you 30 minutes to look at each essay - that's 20 hours a week right there. (Wow, this has turned into some GRE-esque word problem, sorry!)
That being said, sometimes time itself is the enemy. Some people work better with more structure, and get more done if they have a "limited" time to write everyday. Personally, I'd rather create that structure myself by taking extra classes or volunteering etc.
I know you're also wondering about the benefits/drawbacks of a 2 or 3 year program. I guess I look at the differences in this way - if you've "budgeted" 3 years for a program, and you end up in a 2-year MFA, then you've got an "extra" year to apply for fellowships or residencies or the like, while still "finishing overall" in 3 years. I decided early on that I'd rather take a shot at 20 different fellowships or residencies across the country (many of which provide further teaching opportunities) my "third" year.
I don't want to sway you one way or another, but I thought about these issues a lot before applying. It's a really tough call - both programs are great! Not the worst position to be in. :-)
I also wanted to say a big congrats to the Columbia and NYU people! Way to go guys!
Re: Amherst
I drove through Amherst last night. It was real nice until I spotted the flashing blue lights disrupting the darkness behind me. The trees lining the road felt very Sleepy Hollow and convinced me the officer had stopped me to secure himself a head! The flashing blue lights confirmed my suspicions that the Headless Horseman's more modern ride is a UFO.
$200 for doing 40 in a 20, according to this coppah. He wouldn't even let me explain that I am a struggling writer with $100,000 in undergrad loans and no hope for an MFA future...and that I was going down a MOUNTAIN of some sort at the time.
When I finally got back home for some sleepy time, I had a dream where Andie Macdowell and Sean Patrick Flanery abducted the magistrate and brought him/her to my house so I wouldn't have to travel the 2 hours to court. They represented me and got my fine reduced to time served...because in my mind speeding tickets are equivalent to terrible criminal offenses that require prison time...like kidnapping.
I never want to see Amherst again. Ever. Or any other little town in Western MA for that matter.
Oh. Wow. Ouch...sorry to anyone else that reads my last post...I really needed to vent in the most outrageous way possible to make myself feel better. :( Badddd night.
RE: the diversity issue that was briefly touched upon earlier
I'll start by saying I've been reading and holding off on posting--mostly because my goal is to apply for MFA programs next cycle. However, as a fiction writer of color, I think about the diversity issue a LOT and so decided to add my 2 cents.
I agree that diversity can and should go beyond the more "obvious" traits like race/ethnicity/nationality. No question of that. But I must say I find it discouraging when I visit a program's website and there seem to be very few or no faculty members and/or students of color. It usually makes me cross that program off my list. And it's happened quite a few times. Visit the faculty pages for UMASS or Stony Brook Southhampton to see what I mean. I feel the same when I read many lit mags, coming across short stories with such similar content: white characters in the suburbs, boredom, alienation, magical realism turning suburban boredom/alienation on its head...etc. We all know these stories. I'm not saying they're not worth reading, it just gets tiresome. Which I realize is unfair to those persons telling those stories, but I'm just being honest. And I should add, no matter the content, if it hooks me in it hooks me in (to use workshop vernacular).
So, I don't think it's such a bad thing when programs take steps to include the more "obviously" diverse applicants, because clearly the writing world [I guess I mean fiction] is not exactly overrun with ethnic diversity anyway. It may seem that way, but when you look across programs and writing communities--not just the well-known success stories--ethnic writers are still very much underrepresented. And I think the popularity of writers like Junot Diaz, Edwidge Danticat, and ZZ Packer means that people find these stories and POVs interesting and worth reading (aside from, you know, those authors being really talented). What we should avoid is acknowledging diversity for the wrong reasons, for sheer sake of being able to claim diversity...aka tokenism. That's unfair to everyone.
That said, it's great if programs offer everyone an equal opportunity to explain how they may contribute to the diversity of a program beyond race, i.e. class or sexual orientation.
I could talk about this crap all day. Thanks for providing a forum where I could air out my feelings on this. And thanks to everyone for some invaluable info on this process. Good luck to you all!!!!
@diversity and waitlists
um, I think what Fausto was getting at is that it is utterly absurd to think they substitute one type of "Asian" for another or the same with "Muslims" and "Buddhists" (which, btw, what??) to keep things different and level. Please, if more "diverse" people are getting accepted it's because everyone is sick of one type of literary trajectory that has been dominating the field.
Plenty of white males and/or females will still get in, but, basically, now the non-dominant group is no longer UNDER-represented.
Columbia questions? I'm a current MFA student in the fiction program.
Re: being in the School of the Arts vs. English department - hard to compare. Makes us less academic and more studio/craft driven.
@woofenstein - thanks for posting! And everybody else who's been weighing in on the diversity/selection issue - definitely interesting reading.
I just wanted to add... I've been feeling kinda guilty. I'm part Aleut (among other things), and I marked that on my forms... and the only school I got into is the University of Alaska. Ah! What if my ethnic background was the reason I got in? I don't really think that's true though... I mean, I think UAF was just the place where I had the best shot, in terms of my writing sample and my writing goals and the professors. But still. @M.Swann, I totally feel what you were saying, about feeling like you're "exploiting" your personal diversity... I know diversity is super-important, but still, I get to feeling super guilty! Ha, anybody else feel this way?
Okay, everyone - here's wishing you all lots and lots of luck for Monday! :)
@Smoke-oi,
Yes, I have many questions!! What is your course load per semester, firstly, and how much time do you have generally each week to just write? How accessible are faculty members, and how committed do they seem to be to each student's work? I've heard tales of rampant favoritism - how true have you found this to be? And what's your opinion of your fellow student's work? My most important criteria is quality of faculty and cohort - my undergrad experience was mostly mediocre, and I think made me a pretty disengaged student. I'm looking for peers & teachers that care about their work, and are vastly talented, who will kick me in the arse and make me work harder than I've ever worked before. So whaddya think?
re GREs
I want to say again, to those taking the GRE into account when applying, that I wouldn't worry too much about it. I applied to some schools that require the GRE, and have minimum score requirements, and was accepted. My GRE scores were beyond pitiful, and I didn't even meet the 600 verbal requirement. I wouldn't cross a school off your list for any reason related to GREs. I think they definitely make exceptions if they like your sample.
@Smoke-oi,
What is your course load per semester, firstly, and how much time do you have generally each week to just write?
Course load is usually 15 credits per semester. A three-hour workshop takes up six, the rest are usually seminars and lectures (we also have two electives.) Here are this semester's courses:
http://wwwapp.cc.columbia.edu/art/app/arts/writing/courses.jsp
How much writing you get done is up to you, there's a lot of pressure, so you are forced to do a lot. I have four workshop (10 page+) submissions this semester, short stories and essays due in other classes.
How accessible are faculty members, and how committed do they seem to be to each student's work?
Seminar and lecture teachers are less accessible than workshop leaders, who are required to talk to you one-on-one. It's up to you and your personality really.
I've heard tales of rampant favoritism - how true have you found this to be?
Luc Sante's complaints are bitter and out of date. There wasn't any overt favoritism, although there is competition for fellowships and residencies and recommendations. Although I haven't seen it first hand.
And what's your opinion of your fellow student's work?
Cohort is far above my Ivy undergrad. Some amazing writers, a couple of mediocre ones. Everyone cares, which is a nice change.
My most important criteria is quality of faculty and cohort - my undergrad experience was mostly mediocre, and I think made me a pretty disengaged student. I'm looking for peers & teachers that care about their work, and are vastly talented, who will kick me in the arse and make me work harder than I've ever worked before. So whaddya think?
If you are comfortable asserting yourself and want the courseload and larger class, I would definitely go for it. If you're shy and would be more comfortable in a smaller group in a more intimate setting then I'd go somewhere else. I really am getting a lot out of it so far and my writing has really improved.
March 21, 2010 4:01 PM
Columbia writing courses
@Smoke-oi,
Most excellent - thank you so much!!!
My pleasure Emily, the new courses are supposed to be up Monday (same link). Good luck!
What a busy weekend of good news!
I just returned from PSU's grad recruitment weekend for the English department, and I did not want to leave! Met and talked with George Saunders (who was visiting for the week), clicked immediately with the other accepted MFAers (6 out of 8 attended, I was the only poetry there though), attended a hilarious current MFA reading, and met the faculty for the program. I want to graduate nooow.
Anyone else attend a great (or terrible) recruitment weekend? I would love to hear other experiences.
@J. Haley
No, I definitely don't think it's just funding. First, there's the flip-side of the funding question -- which is not (to emphasize) the same issue -- and that's cost. Two of those three programs are incredibly expensive, and all are located in among the highest-cost locales in the country. Even if partial or full funding were available to some students, this would be a major issue. Second is the question of reputation: SFSU was ranked #46 in 1996, which would be the equivalent of a ranking on the wrong side of 100th today. University of San Francisco was tied for last nationally -- which today would be... er... last, I guess. CCA was unranked (not sure whether it existed or not at the time). This speaks to the impression those in the system have of these programs. That impression still exists today: among the small group of TSE voters who did not use TSE when applying -- i.e., who were not exposed to the present conventional wisdom about funding, which comes not just from TSE but from any/every online MFA-applicant community -- CCA, SFSU, and USF do better than they do in the overall polling but are still just outside the top 50 (and given that those who don't use online communities prior to applying are naturally far less familiar with the range of programs out there, a non-top-50 finish amongst such applicants is worse than it seems -- i.e., it's, say, 55th out of the 70 or 80 programs maximum this sub-set of applicants are aware of). These are also incredibly large programs -- which is all right when the cohort quality is very high (Iowa, Arizona, George Mason, etcetera) because that means a vibrant community that inspires students even if professors are more difficult to access, but when cohort quality is not as high it's easy to get lost in the shuffle. And that's exactly the complaint I've heard from students at, for instance, SFSU. Selectivity, which is related to cohort quality, is another issue -- it's not clear the cohorts at these programs are as strong as elsewhere. Format may be an issue for CCA: students want a studio program, increasingly, but I think there's still some hesitation about attending a "true" art school for a creative writing degree (like SAIC, CCA, CalArts, and Otis). These are possibly less popular for many reasons: less prestige; less well-known universities; no grades (in some instances) to report to doctoral programs if you want to apply, &c &c. I'd also say that, for programs located in major urban centers, these schools do not have the faculty rosters of other large, largely-unfunded programs (e.g. those in NYC): compare the faculties with NYU, Columbia, and Sarah Lawrence, for instance, and these schools we're discussing now just can't compare. I also think we could look at historical placement records and see that these schools are not putting lots of grads in fellowships -- when controlled for size, even SFSU drops out of the top 50 nationally (and since the Placement Rankings go back to 1998, dozens of started-up-since-1998 programs aren't even really eligible -- because they haven't graduated hardly anyone -- so that's a non-top-50 finish out of an estimated 100 programs that realistically had a shot of being in that ranking). What those programs have going for them, IMHO, is their location and the fact that they may be slightly more open to experimental work. Otherwise, and I mean this kindly -- as an attempt to offer good advice to people in a tough spot, not to put anyone down whatsoever -- I think these are all "apply-again" programs (programs one should not attend without an offer of full funding).
Best,
S.
P.S. I've been a proponent of the "apply-again" theory for years now -- it has nothing to do with the fact that I work with applicants who haven't been accepted anywhere, or who've turned down unfunded offers. Those who are trying to decide whether or when to apply again should consider this service (see post at link). Many applicants who are likely to leap at an offer now -- putting themselves tens of thousands of dollars into needless debt (which they will struggle to pay back, because the MFA can't get anyone a job) -- could, if they just expended a little additional time (and yes, for some, a very small financial investment is also helpful) increase their chances of improving their ability to get into a funded program.
One of the things that made me happiest this whole application season was having worked with someone who, in part thanks to a small financial investment in an ALC consultation, ended up at a program that will be giving this person $85,000+ in a non-teaching, no-strings-attached fellowship. I really believe in this with my whole heart: $80 now, $90 now, $250 now, can translate into literally tens of thousands of dollars a few months from now. So look, whether anyone uses DH or not -- or any of the online workshops or live workshops or whatever -- please seriously consider turning down any unfunded offer. If you keep at this thing you will end up having your education paid for by someone else, I really believe this!
Accepted to Irvine, this afternoon via a lovely phone call.
Poetry, I forgot to add...:)
Thank you, Seth. You sure gave me a lot to think about... Cliche necessary: I'm now between a rock and a hard place.
For clarification, you said...
"I think these are all 'apply-again' programs (programs one should not attend without an offer of full funding)."
Therefore, if funding is offered, as some people have stated (in the form of Provost Scholarships and the like), would you recommend attending? Or, taking into consideration the other downfalls you described, are they programs to which you wouldn't recommend applying in the first place?
Thanks again.
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